Manhole Eunuchsbane

Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

398 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

My point regarding Spacey was that it was different in a couple of ways. It involved an underage accuser for one. It also involved a really big movie star (I would argue that Spacey is a much juicier target than Weinstein) who had rumors regarding his sexuality swirling around for decades.


Yeah. It wasn't really what you were saying that I was taking issue with. While it definitely helped that Spacey's first accuser is a man, there were other factors too (look at Bryan Singer for someone whom there have been far more lurid accusations, repeatedly, that got far less traction).

That shouldn't be allowed to disguise the fact that this is an important moment for the way women's voices are being heard in a way they usually aren't. Especially since they could still be heard better.

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

At the same time you are also being told that others feel like you are attempting to talk past them without talking to their points, and you are ignoring it and deflecting it as being part of some generalization - when they are specifically talking about you. And this is a problem, and a typical example of one - instead of treating their criticism of you as a criticism of you as an individual, you generalize it and deflect it. 

Note that this has nothing to do with your gender (as other men aren't having this problem) and everything to do with your stance and your behavior. It's on you, dog. 

I will say it was incredibly striking how fast and vitriolic the response was against Spacey compared to Weinstein. Not a single person called the statement fake, not a single person thought they were trying to make a buck or something. Now, part of that is that someone famous made the claim, and as we see with Weinstein (and tangentially with Moore in the converse) that makes a lot of difference, but part of it also appears to be one man made the claim. 

I mean, compare his claim to the accusers of Roy Moore - Moore isn't being asked to step down until recently, people are saying that it was long ago so it doesn't matter, etc - which is entirely true of Spacey, but Spacey gets blown up almost immediately. Spacey isn't even on the House of Cards display pic on Netflix any more! 

Now, I think another reason that men are more likely to believed is that men are exceedingly unlikely to come forward in general, even moreso than women, and so the rarity of it makes it more likely to be truthful - but it's also the case that there is a longstanding narrative of women lie about this all the time. It's wrong and faulty - women lie about rape as much (about 11%) as anyone lies about any crime - but it stands, still. Men don't have that factor.

Seriously, go through all the posts between me and Kelli (if you can be bothered) and tell me if I address more of her points, or if she addresses more of mine. Look at how many times I've told her I agree with her, that she made a good point, and how many times she did the sae to me. It's fine to criticise me, but what I'm being accused of is evidently not true. And she's been quite clear this is a problem with men generally. It certainly isn't all specifically about me. If it is, they should just talk about the points I make, and not my gender.

I personally thought that was mainly because Spacey basically conceded it could have happened. Put it this way- if someone said you sexually assaulted a 14 year old at a party, would your response be "I don't remember that" or "absolutely not, I would never do anything like that"? And I did see people expressing doubt on it, actually. "Oh look, here's the latest one, how strange that he is now coming out with this after all these years", I heard all of this. So again, you're over simplifying. It would be convenient for you if "not a single person" had said these things, but they did.

But overall you've made a good point about Spacey, expressed yourself well, given me something to think about. I don't see how that relates to me. I'm listening to you (and not just because you're male). So what's the problem?

12 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

No. But this discussion is unique in that insistent addressing of other points is part of the problem. I can't force him to follow my lead, but I'm damn certain going to tell him when he's saying a problem doesn't exist while exemplifying it.

And, I mean, that's what makes it difficult. Some people do it on purpose, but the really tricky part comes from people who just aren't getting what Theda, Kelli, and the others are saying. I think he's coming into this conversation with genuine good will, but key parts of what is being said are just not getting on board.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't talk about the men Spacey abused in this thread, if that's what it seems like. This thread is a general discussion and that's fine. What I'm saying is that consistently saying that the experience of men and the experience of women is the same is not just wrong but feeding the issue.

As long as we give that point sufficient attention, I don't think addressing other points is part of the system. No one has yet expressed to me why that is. And I've never seen using giant font and capital letters persuade anyone to change their mind.

There's a certain arrogance in assuming that someone who doesn't agreeing with you isn't "getting it". People disagree. It's a forum.

And where did I say that? I don't think that at all, I just think they're both important. I know the difference by personal experience. As guy, it's "man up, get over it, beat them up (if it's a guy)". With girls, it's "well what you drinking, what messages were you sending", etc.

Anyways, this is getting distracted a bit. Here's another really awkward Louis CK bit, on how dangerous men are to women. It makes me wonder (apologies for the amateur psychology), is this a kind of self justification? Like "Men are inherently dangerous to women. Men are so dangerous, all the rapists and murderers, that I'm hardly a real bad guy, just a bit weird. What I'm doing is nothing really, I'm sure these women just brush it off, they've all seen a lot worse. I've never hit a woman, never raped one, I'm one of the good guys, really".

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The thing about this moment and listening to women right now is also that suddenly, a lot of people- not everyone who needs to- are listening. We can be hopeful and naive that it will last- BUT THAT TOTALLY WON’T HAPPEN. The zeitgeist will be gone as soon as something else is big news and America will pat its back as being past sexism and assault because it’s all taken care of because like four powerful men got consequences kinda.

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Just now, Kelli Fury said:

The thing about this moment and listening to women right now is also that suddenly, a lot of people- not everyone who needs to- are listening. We can be hopeful and naive that it will last- BUT THAT TOTALLY WON’T HAPPEN. The zeitgeist will be gone as soon as something else is big news and America will pat its back as being past sexism and assault because it’s all taken care of because like four powerful men got consequences kinda.

Yep

 I think that's massively being ignored here. I mean it's all very well and good inherently believing in an egalitarian world and I commend it but it's also disingenuus to believe that's the world we're living in. It's not.

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This is a really great elaboration on the idea of women suddenly and URGENTLY having a voice RIGHT NOW. 

 

Quote

 

The anger window is open. For decades, centuries, it was closed: Something bad happened to you, you shoved it down, you maybe told someone but probably didn’t get much satisfaction — emotional or practical — from the confession. Maybe you even got blowback. No one really cared, and certainly no one was going to do anything about it.

But for the past six weeks, since reports of one movie producer’s serial predationblew a Harvey-size hole in the news cycle, there is suddenly space, air, for women to talk. To yell, in fact. To make dangerous lists and call reporters and text with their friends about everything that’s been suppressed.

This is not feminism as we’ve known it in its contemporary rebirth — packaged into think pieces or nonprofits or Eve Ensler plays or Beyoncé VMA performances. That stuff has its place and is necessary in its own way. This is different. This is ’70s-style, organic, mass, radical rage, exploding in unpredictable directions. It is loud, thanks to the human megaphone that is social media and the “whisper networks” that are now less about speaking sotto voce than about frantically typed texts and all-caps group chats.

 

from here: 

https://www.thecut.com/2017/11/rebecca-traister-on-the-post-weinstein-reckoning.html

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Another relevant quote from the article 

Quote

Part of the challenge, for me, has been in my exchanges with men — the friends and colleagues self-aware enough to be uneasy, to know they’re on a list somewhere or imagine that they might be. They text and call, not quite saying why, but leaving no doubt: They once cheated with a colleague; they once made a pass they suspect was wrong; they aren’t sure if they got consent that one time. Are they condemned? What is the nature and severity of their crime? The anxiety of this — how to speak to guys who seek feminist absolution but whom I suspect to be compromised — is real. Some of my friends have no patience for men’s sudden penchant for introspection, but I’m a sucker; I feel for them. When they reach out, my impulse is to comfort. But reason — and a determination not to placate, not now — drives me to be direct, colder than usual: Yes, this is a problem. In fact, it’s your problem. Seek to address it.

 

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23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that, no. Again, look at other examples. Look at George Takei. Look at Brett Ratner. 

Part of it is probably Netflix has zero shits to give about this sort of thing and takes it a bit more seriously than others, I suspect, but part of it is that it went from zero to shitcanned in 2 seconds, and a lot of that was 'underage man accuser'. For instance, we don't have near the kind of multiple accounts of Spacey that we do Ratner, or Moore - but Spacey is gone gone gone. 

Yeah, I suppose it's more complex than just timing, but I think it factors in. That and the stature of the accused and the tone deafness of his "apology" and (as you said) Netflix's fairly unique business model.

 That said, there have been multiple accusers of Spacey. I think he's up to 15 or so. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2017/11/07/kevin-spacey-scandal-complete-list-13-accusers/835739001/

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6 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

The thing about this moment and listening to women right now is also that suddenly, a lot of people- not everyone who needs to- are listening. We can be hopeful and naive that it will last- BUT THAT TOTALLY WON’T HAPPEN. The zeitgeist will be gone as soon as something else is big news and America will pat its back as being past sexism and assault because it’s all taken care of because like four powerful men got consequences kinda.

You're right. The thing is, this isn't really about "the Weinstein scandal" or "the Spacey scandal". It's not a news item, it's a social issue. Locking up Weinstein doesn't really solve anything, in the same way people were obsessed with killing Bin Laden. I mean it's great to see the bad guy get his commupence, and it's justice, and that's important. But now we just have other Bin Laden's stepping up, because the environment that created him hasn't changed, if anything it has got worse.

I'm a bit more optimisitic, I think it will make some difference, because it has made me reconsider certain things that I see and hear. And I think progress has been made. Depictions of women have improved, attitudes have changed. When my aunt left her husband, his dad told him he should have hit her to keep her in line. In a certain part of British society, that was an acceptable viewpoint. It isn't any more. But that is an inch high bar.

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24 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

There's a certain arrogance in assuming that someone who doesn't agreeing with you isn't "getting it". People disagree. It's a forum.

I don't think you don't get it because you're not agreeing with me. I disagree with lots of people all the time, and I'm not sure I've used that accusation before. I think you don't get it because of the way you're responding to this discussion not just with me but with everyone involved, and because 'men not getting it' is one of the hearts of this particular thing.


I mean, you are responding fairly and engaging with a lot of what's being said. But there is one key thing that you are repeatedly refusing to take on board and that is that no-one is saying that we shouldn't talk about abuse of males and other things but that conflating the two together obscures much of the reason why this is allowed to happen to women so often in the first place. Discuss it, but discuss it separately. As a separate thing. And if you disagree... well then I'm afraid, in my opinion, you don't get it.

 

42 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

And where did I say that? I don't think that at all, I just think they're both important. I know the difference by personal experience.

 

Well, you either said it or strongly implied it for example here:

For me, this is more like you saying "I broke my arm" and me saying "I broke my arm too", and you replying "why do you have to make this about you!?".

 

Quote


Media is consumed by men and women. If those messages are effecting young men, they're effecting young women. I'm not saying can't or shouldn't, I'm saying they don't learn from media separately.

 

On 12/11/2017 at 6:50 PM, mankytoes said:

It is, but it's a trope that goes both ways, you get loads of instances of women doing the same, in real life and on tv.

I don't think you can really separate how men and women get their information.



If that is not what you were trying to say then okay but that is what you are coming off as saying.

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5 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

ither in this thread or the previous one someone attempted to casually dismiss the allegations by expressing disbelief that the rich powerful Angelina Jolies of the world would 'allow' the abuse from the Weinsteins of the world to occur or continue.

This is exactly what you are doing here.  Just think...if your coworkers hear some version of this from you or several of like you in your department they are that much more unlikely to come forward.  

So what, the rich and powerful Angelina Jollies of the world aren't as powerful as they make out to be? If that is the case, why do they pretend to be so influential and powerful?

You see, the end result of your stance is that women are always some kind of victim. This is regressive, considering all the gains women made in waves 1 & 2 of feminism, where they de-victimised themselves and gave themselves agency.

Edited by ummester

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Just now, ummester said:

SO what, the rich and powerful Angelina Jollies of the world aren't as powerful as they make out to be? If that is the case, why do they pretend to be so influential and powerful?

:blink:

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9 minutes ago, ummester said:

So what, the rich and powerful Angelina Jollies of the world aren't as powerful as they make out to be? If that is the case, why do they pretend to be so influential and powerful?

You see, the end result of your stance is that women are always some kind of victim. This is regressive, considering all the gains women made in waves 1 & 2 of feminism, where they de-victimised themselves and gave themselves agency.

:wacko::excl:

Kelli, can you loan me that de-victimiser spray?  I'm fresh out.

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1 hour ago, Kelli Fury said:

We can be hopeful and naive that it will last- BUT THAT TOTALLY WON’T HAPPEN. The zeitgeist will be gone as soon as something else is big news and America will pat its back as being past sexism and assault because it’s all taken care of because like four powerful men got consequences kinda.

Have to say that I disagree with your point here. I think we are witnessing a formative change here. Look at what is happening to Roy Moore. This is in stark contrast to just a year ago when Trump was given a pass by half of our nation. I don't see how we go backwards from here.

 That's not to say that you're never going to have another powerful man take advantage of a woman sexually, but I don't think these matters will be handled in the same way going forward.  

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Have to say that I disagree with your point here. I think we are witnessing a formative change here. Look at what is happening to Roy Moore here. This is in stark contrast to just a year ago when Trump was given a pass by half of our nation. I don't see how we go backwards from here.

 That's not to say that you're never going to have another powerful man take advantage of a woman sexually, but I don't think these matters will be handled in the same way going forward.  



I do hope you're right, but the prover won't be Roy Moore who's being accused in the midst of the moment (and is still getting support from his party and may well still win), it'll be how it goes in a year, or two, when something similar comes up.

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3 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I do hope you're right, but the prover won't be Roy Moore who's being accused in the midst of the moment (and is still getting support from his party and may well still win), it'll be how it goes in a year, or two, when something similar comes up.

 Yeah, it wouldn't be first time I've been wrong, but I feel like this is a seachange sort of a moment. So many giants of the industry are going down. I don't see how you go back to business as usual after all of this plays out.

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3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Yeah, it wouldn't be first time I've been wrong, but I feel like this is a seachange sort of a moment. So many giants of the industry are going down. I don't see how you go back to business as usual after all of this plays out.

There will be a reactionary counterresponse to this movement. Breitbart et al will use this as ammunition. Just watch. 

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37 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There will be a reactionary counterresponse to this movement. Breitbart et al will use this as ammunition. Just watch. 

Oh yeah, Bannon has to be absolutely sick of backing losers. Breitbart will attempt to spin this hard. The thing is, with less than a month to go before the election, I don't think they have enough time to do it right.

Look at what's happened to Hannity on the back of his Moore defense. Fox has been pushing the whole "Weinstein scandal is a Democrat scandal" canard now for the better part of a month. Then one of their own gets sucked into it, and they have no out. This has boomeranged on the Right Wing media badly. They threw shit at the fan and then stood in front of it. It's really kind of delicious. 

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Oh yeah, Bannon has to be absolutely sick of backing losers. Breitbart will attempt to spin this hard. the thing is, with less than a month to go before the election, I don't think they have enough time to do it right.

Look at what's happened to Hannity on the back of his Moore defense. Fox has been pushing the whole "Weinstein scandal is a Democratic scandal" canard now for the better part of a month. Then one of their own gets sucked into it, and they have no out. This has boomeranged on the Right Wing media badly. They threw shit at the fan and then stood in front of it. It's really kind of delicious. 

I'm talking about in general, not this specific to Moore. I think Moore is done as a senator, and will be expelled almost as soon as he enters the chamber if he gets even that far. The only question I have is whether or not he wins the election or if Republicans are able to get someone else. 

No, I'm talking about using this in general. It will probably not be immediate, but in the next month or so you'll find more allegations made that end up being false, more examples of women baiting men, more examples of the media never listening to the men, etc. 

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Oh yeah, Bannon has to be absolutely sick of backing losers. Breitbart will attempt to spin this hard. The thing is, with less than a month to go before the election, I don't think they have enough time to do it right.

Look at what's happened to Hannity on the back of his Moore defense. Fox has been pushing the whole "Weinstein scandal is a Democrat scandal" canard now for the better part of a month. Then one of their own gets sucked into it, and they have no out. This has boomeranged on the Right Wing media badly. They threw shit at the fan and then stood in front of it. It's really kind of delicious. 

Not really, they're just ignoring it. And since their viewers don't have a ton of other outlets that they follow, the story won't get a ton of negative attention in the right wing media ecosystem. 

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