Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Is this where you live? That's horrific. Even if media portrayals of rape can be a bit off, I don't think they promote this attitude. Take, for example, Ramsay's rape of Sansa. People hated it, said it was awful and exploitative... but still, no one really thought the show was blaming her. As usual, rape was being used to show Ramsay is Properly Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)

Even the apologists I know seem to acknowledge that on at least some occasions, there are just evil people out there. One of Britain's worst ever rapists would break into the houses of the elderly.

All over the world, women are told to cover up, not to walk alone are night, not to get drunk, etc.  But how often are men (and boys) taught not to be rapists?  Way less frequently. 

Most of the world puts the onus on the victim to stop the behavior.

Victim blaming doesn't have to be some massive, overt "YOUR FAULT", written on the marquee.  It's usually a bit more subtle.  "Why didn't she come forward sooner?" "What was she wearing"?

 

 

When it comes to harassment it's even worse.  

Bringing up Ramsay and Sansa, or the GOT show isn't really helpful.  In fact your post basically proves the point that women aren't believed about how they're being treated.  

[drawkcabi]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Of course someone wrote it.  And then it was likely approved by a team of lawyers and public relations folks.  He's rich, what else is there to expect?  

This shit trickles down.  Or at least that's my hope.  

That said, sure, I agree, it's total shit.  But we currently have such a low bar where victims are commonly called liars and shamed and have their reputations gutted that this statement is big and major.  I see others following a similar suit, and then perhaps it eventually reaches the mlllions of people whose stories you don't see or hear on front page news.

I don't forgive him (I dont even know who he is).  He's a total shit bag.  But I think it's fine to feel some measure of relief when one of these shitbags owns up to what they did.  

Might as well say this about all of society because none of this is limited to Hollywood.  It happens in every industry.  You'd be stuck having to free range your needs if you go on a boycott of any industry that has a harrasment and abuse problem.

 

4 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

This abuse isn't limited to Hollywood, it's pretty much everywhere.  

 

Truth there.

Best hope is the ultra brave heroes that keep coming forward and after all they went through originally then they have to put up with the abuse, harassment, accusations of lying, everything to pin these slimeballs down for what they did.

Just keep going after them one by one until it's finally accepted in all aspects of society that this kind of behavior is not acceptable. That won't be achieved in any of our lifetimes but that's no excuse not to keep the pressure on and to try to make things not as difficult for the accusers as much as possible. I'm not talking a free "get out of burden of proof" card here either, just a non hostile attitude from everyone and immediate acceptance that all claims could be legitimate is what these people are owed.

 

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Is this where you live? That's horrific. Even if media portrayals of rape can be a bit off, I don't think they promote this attitude. Take, for example, Ramsay's rape of Sansa. People hated it, said it was awful and exploitative... but still, no one really thought the show was blaming her. As usual, rape was being used to show Ramsay is Properly Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)

Even the apologists I know seem to acknowledge that on at least some occasions, there are just evil people out there. One of Britain's worst ever rapists would break into the houses of the elderly.

I think you've missed the point of what was being said there. The whole idea is that rapists are often, even usually, not openly evil psychopaths who break into old lady's houses or lurk in the bushes, but people we know. Look at the conversations going on now on places like twitter- women aren't relating stories of being scared of the noise at the window or the shadow in the dark, though that happens too: they're discussions on how to keep safe from the guy they see on the bus, the guy they get on the lift with, their boss or their boss's boss, the people they know. How to stop those people, among whom they can't tell the good guys from the bad ones, from feeling any kind of entitlement that they'll act on. To go 'well of course TV presents rape properly look at Ramsay Bolton' is precisely to ignore that the rapists and harrassers exist among us and to encourage an environment were the onus is on women to not get raped rather than on men to not rape.

[Eggegg]

I tell you what, this clip is now quite painful to watch! Is it a cry for help?!

 

[Darth Richard II]

Thinking more, what rubs me the wrong way about said apology is that he makes it all about HIM.

[mankytoes]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

All over the world, women are told to cover up, not to walk alone are night, not to get drunk, etc.  But how often are men (and boys) taught not to be rapists?  Way less frequently. 

Most of the world puts the onus on the victim to stop the behavior.

Victim blaming doesn't have to be some massive, overt "YOUR FAULT", written on the marquee.  It's usually a bit more subtle.  "Why didn't she come forward sooner?" "What was she wearing"?

When it comes to harassment it's even worse.  

Bringing up Ramsay and Sansa, or the GOT show isn't really helpful.  In fact your post basically proves the point that women aren't believed about how they're being treated.  

I'm not disputing any of that, I'm disputing the idea that "we apparently don’t believe potential rapists exist among us". I've never had that impression from anyone.

That example was showing how the victim isn't always blamed.

I think some people are getting a bit black and white on this. Yes, people are apologists, you often hear things like "well she was leading him on". But it's over the top to suggest this is the overwhelming message we get. Many people, as this forum has indicated, respond very strongly against the accused when these things come up. I just think, like a lot of things, people want to avoid or deny any of the complexities involved, and they get angry at others if they try to explore them. I think people like the idea that rapists are just evil, like Ramsay, because then they're totally different to us. It's the reason the term "monster" is so popular for serious criminals in my opinion.

It's not looking good for George Takei now. At least this will encourage the idea that there is no set image for an abuser.

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I tell you what, this clip is now quite painful to watch! Is it a cry for help?!

 

Ouch, that's brutal. I've never really seen much of his stuff, but I remember watching this and thinking it was really funny. I guess they say "write what you know" and that.

That clip must have been really horrible for any of his victims, if they saw it.

[Darth Richard II]

Has there been more than one Takei accusation?

[Kelli Fury]

6 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Is this where you live? That's horrific. Even if media portrayals of rape can be a bit off, I don't think they promote this attitude. Take, for example, Ramsay's rape of Sansa. People hated it, said it was awful and exploitative... but still, no one really thought the show was blaming her. As usual, rape was being used to show Ramsay is Properly Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)

Even the apologists I know seem to acknowledge that on at least some occasions, there are just evil people out there. One of Britain's worst ever rapists would break into the houses of the elderly.

What I was referring to was the fact that every woman has been told extensively what she can do/buy/wear/act like/avoid to not get raped from puberty on to menopause. There are classes you can take on this as a woman in every major city. There are not classes on how you can avoid raping people as a man- AND PEOPLE NEED THEM. Most men don’t realize that a lot of socially acceptable, jokes about behavior is legally rape. Feeding someone drinks until they are more compliant is rape, and it is a common movie trope to this day to do it. Your example just proves that the education men get on this is largely from entertainment media. And entertainment media is full of examples of consent by coercion and consent by deception and moving forward after hearing no being acceptable and completely normal behavior. 

[Darth Richard II]

Ok wait, inappropriate jokes are rape?

[Eggegg]

11 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

What I was referring to was the fact that every woman has been told extensively what she can do/buy/wear/act like/avoid to not get raped from puberty on to menopause. There are classes you can take on this as a woman in every major city. There are not classes on how you can avoid raping people as a man- AND PEOPLE NEED THEM. Most men don’t realize that a lot of socially acceptable, jokes about behavior is legally rape. Feeding someone drinks until they are more compliant is rape, and it is a common movie trope to this day to do it. Your example just proves that the education men get on this is largely from entertainment media. And entertainment media is full of examples of consent by coercion and consent by deception and moving forward after hearing no being acceptable and completely normal behavior. 

I think you have really lost me here.

 

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Ouch, that's brutal. I've never really seen much of his stuff, but I remember watching this and thinking it was really funny. I guess they say "write what you know" and that.

That clip must have been really horrible for any of his victims, if they saw it.

I think he is a genius comic, maybe the best of the last decade. So much of his comedy revolves around sexuality and his own shame and self loathing that it seems to provide a real window into his own sense of lack of control. I mean his comedy has been used as clips to send people when discussing how dangerous dating is for women. I genuinely believe he understands the hurt he was causing unlike someone like Weinstein who seems to view people as commodities.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, do you mean like haha I'm grabbing your boobs type jokes? I don't know if I'd say rape but it's certainly assault.

[Toth]

29 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Has there been more than one Takei accusation?

I just read about it on a German news site and apparently as of yet there is only one accusation and Takei is denying it vehemently. The way it looks this is not even sexual harassment, but an outright attempt at date-rape in which Takei was trying to undress the victim despite him being passing out drunk and protesting, though he managed to get his stuff and flee Takei's flat before things got out of hand.

The story makes me wonder just how drunk Takei himself was in that moment, though it is still a pretty damning accusation.

[drawkcabi]

18 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ok wait, inappropriate jokes are rape?

No, pretty sure what was meant was that there is a lot of jokes out there about certain behaviors that people find acceptable but it's about rape.

No doubt it's true and it's messed up. I don't believe in limits to comedy but I do believe people should understand completely if they're laughing at something that connotes rape.

Just last night on SNL there was a joke

trigger warning for what's in spoilers

Spoiler

 

about it being discovered that sheep have the ability to recognize faces,

"so remember farmers, always hit it from the back"

 

I just cringed.

I don't know if this thread and the recent scandals has just made me hyper aware or I would have cringed anyway, but while I don't fault SNL for doing it, I didn't appreciate it.

[polishgenius]

17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh, do you mean like haha I'm grabbing your boobs type jokes? I don't know if I'd say rape but it's certainly assault.

I think there's an 'are' and an 'is' missing from KF's post that's caused some confusion- 'a lot of socially acceptable jokes are about behaviour that is legally rape'. Which, yeah, there are.
But I could be wrong about what was meant.

[mankytoes]

49 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

What I was referring to was the fact that every woman has been told extensively what she can do/buy/wear/act like/avoid to not get raped from puberty on to menopause. There are classes you can take on this as a woman in every major city. There are not classes on how you can avoid raping people as a man- AND PEOPLE NEED THEM. Most men don’t realize that a lot of socially acceptable, jokes about behavior is legally rape. Feeding someone drinks until they are more compliant is rape, and it is a common movie trope to this day to do it. Your example just proves that the education men get on this is largely from entertainment media. And entertainment media is full of examples of consent by coercion and consent by deception and moving forward after hearing no being acceptable and completely normal behavior. 

I'm not sure I agree with that. I mean, there are certainly people who could benefit from those kinds of classes- and I would say there is pretty much a zero per cent chance any of them would actually attend one.

It is, but it's a trope that goes both ways, you get loads of instances of women doing the same, in real life and on tv.

I don't think you can really separate how men and women get their information. But I can't argue that there is a lot of dodgy stuff on tv. I loved the James Bond films when I was younger, I had all of them. It wasn't until recently that someone online pointed out he straight up rapes Pussy Galore in Goldfinger, my all time favourite... But on the other hand, we do also have it hammered into us that rape is the ultimate evil, the very worst crime. It's more taboo than murder.

In fact, it's actually worse the other way, the depictions of sexual violence against men. We all know the most popular rape joke is "don't drop the soap" (it's funny if men get raped, as long as they're prisoners). http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandardRapeFemaleOnMale

I don't know if you know the film 40 Days and 40 Nights. It's about a guy who is trying not to have sex for that time frame. He almost makes it, but a woman flat out rapes him just before the end. This film is a comedy. Now Hollywood treats women badly, but can you imagine that going down the other way around? In 2002?

Another example is the British comedy Peep Show. Again, one of the main characters is raped by a woman in his sleep. Now it's a very dark comedy, and it is very funny, but again, they would never have had it the other way round, had one of them rape a woman in her sleep. It's unthinkable. And as a man, that does effect you. If a guy crosses the line, you can just use physical force, no problem. But what about if a woman does it? You might be stronger, but you can't use violence.

On the media issue, this guy is making superb Youtube videos. If you can be explicitely feminist and only get 5% dislikes, you're doing something right-

If you don't want to watch the whole thing, just skip to 8:30. I couldn't believe I hadn't even batted an eyelid at this scene when I watched Blade Runner.

32 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

II think he is a genius comic, maybe the best of the last decade. So much of his comedy revolves around sexuality and his own shame and self loathing that it seems to provide a real window into his own sense of lack of control. I mean his comedy has been used as clips to send people when discussing how dangerous dating is for women. I genuinely believe he understands the hurt he was causing unlike someone like Weinstein who seems to view people as commodities.

If that is true, doesn't that make it kind of worse? It's one thing if he genuinely didn't understand how threatening or upsetting his behaviour could be. But if he really understood it, and did it anyway...

55 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Has there been more than one Takei accusation?

Not as far as I'm aware, but he made some pretty Trumpish comments about grabbing men to persuade them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5074175/George-Takei-said-grabbed-men-persuade-them.html

 

[Darth Richard II]

That video isnt working for me. Which scene in Blade Runner!

[polishgenius]

24 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

That video isnt working for me. Which scene in Blade Runner!

The one where he forces himself on Rachael just after he proves to her that she's a replicant, even though she's initially resistant and then nonresponsive.

To be fair that leapt out at me when I recently rewatched it. The whole movie has Deckard doing uncomfortable things but that's the only one where there's no moment where it asks you to question it.

[mankytoes]

34 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

That video isnt working for me. Which scene in Blade Runner!

Youtube search "predatory Harrison Ford". Take out the romantic music, and he's pretty much going through all the motions of classic abusive behaviour.

[Darth Richard II]

Ohhh OLD Blade Runner. ;p

[polishgenius]

44 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Not as far as I'm aware, but he made some pretty Trumpish comments about grabbing men to persuade them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5074175/George-Takei-said-grabbed-men-persuade-them.html

 

...wow. That is, minus the potential drugging part, exactly the behaviour he's been accused of. He's literally admitted it on the radio. He just doesn't think it's wrong. He also implies very strongly there that he thinks the only thing Spacey and Weinstein did wrong was do it with people over whom they had direct power and influence at work.