Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Darth Richard II]

13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Eh, think you're kind of missing the point here. #Metoo is about victims sharing their stories. I'm not sure how gender even enters into that. Are you suggesting that men can't be victims of rape or sexual harassment? It's nothing like #all lives matter. #All lives matter degrades #black lives matter. If the hastag was Mentoo, then you'd have a point.

No there was a disgusting #mentoo hashtag pretty much started by ganergaters.

Anyhoo, Dreyfus "apology" stuck me as particularly foul. Pretty much "lol i thought she was into me"

[Kelli Fury]

Little known fact- since it’s very tiring to explain the nuances of the female experience the mods put all the women of GenChat into a pool and draft whose job it is to explain things and deal with dominant group defensiveness about it. It’s like jury duty. This week is just my turn. The pool is a lot smaller on indigenous issues so I catch that one most times it comes up.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

No there was a disgusting #mentoo hashtag pretty much started by ganergaters.

Anyhoo, Dreyfus "apology" stuck me as particularly foul. Pretty much "lol i thought she was into me"

Right, and that is clearly a hijack in much the same way #all lives matter is.  

[Kelli Fury]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Right, and that is clearly a hijack in much the same way #all lives matter is.  

And that’s what I was talking about if you go ahead and read all those ns I typed

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Kelli Fury said:

And that’s what I was talking about if you go ahead and read all those ns I typed

Read it as metoo the first time out. Apologies.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Honestly at this point I have trouble taking gamergaters seriously. They are truly the whiniest babies on teh intrawebs at the moment, which is kind of funny given their masculine-centric platform.  

[Kelli Fury]

I think they are actually just toddlers like the little rascals and that’s the He Man Woman Haters of 2017 and you need code words like cuck to get in their tree fort

[Darth Richard II]

21 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Little known fact- since it’s very tiring to explain the nuances of the female experience the mods put all the women of GenChat into a pool and draft whose job it is to explain things and deal with dominant group defensiveness about it. It’s like jury duty. This week is just my turn. The pool is a lot smaller on indigenous issues so I catch that one most times it comes up.

Ha. I laughed out loud.

[Xray the Enforcer]

25 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Little known fact- since it’s very tiring to explain the nuances of the female experience the mods put all the women of GenChat into a pool and draft whose job it is to explain things and deal with dominant group defensiveness about it. It’s like jury duty. This week is just my turn. The pool is a lot smaller on indigenous issues so I catch that one most times it comes up.

[mod] Thank you for your service. [/mod]

[The Anti-Targ]

Well damn, 2017 seems to be the year for exposing the sexual underbelly of the entertainment world. And for once (?) it seems to be coming with real and immediate career limiting / career ending consequences for these people.

That's good.

But is it actually going to drive meaningful behavioural change? Will it get sexual predators in positions of power and influence to actually rethink this aspect of themselves, or will they just get smarter in how they go about their predatory behaviours? What's the behavioural evolution we're going to see here? In 15-20 years are there just going to be another series of revelations about sexual harassment and abuse once society has further refined itself to regard behaviours today that are tolerated by the victims as intolerable?

[Kelli Fury]

29 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

[mod] Thank you for your service. [/mod]

I do my civic duties, I think next week is Theda again. 

 

In other creeper news- I heard Gal Gadot is pulling out as Wonder Woman unless Warner Brothers cuts ties with Brett Ratner

[Yukle]

46 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Little known fact- since it’s very tiring to explain the nuances of the female experience the mods put all the women of GenChat into a pool and draft whose job it is to explain things and deal with dominant group defensiveness about it. It’s like jury duty. This week is just my turn. The pool is a lot smaller on indigenous issues so I catch that one most times it comes up.

Hahahahahaha!

I actually laughed out loud.

I can't do my duty. I have dependent children. Please defer mine.  

8 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

What's the behavioural evolution we're going to see here? In 15-20 years are there just going to be another series of revelations about sexual harassment and abuse once society has further refined itself to regard behaviours today that are tolerated by the victims as intolerable?

That's a good question and the answer is sort of: in all probability there will be a return to earlier sexism.

History is kind of sad in that most people see it as a journey of progress. It's not, because there is no fixed destination. So in a few decades, you will see almost the same headlines as now, just with different names.

If you sat down with any European, North African or North American in 1945, they'd tell you that at as horrible as the Second World War was, at least we never have to see such genocide again. The sheer evil that stemmed from Nazism absolutely revolted the world so much that it even allied the USA with the Soviet Union - two powers who fundamentally disagreed on just about absolutely anything else.

So imagine how shocked the soldiers of WWII would be today to see free American citizens marching in American cities, and Polish citizens march in Polish cities and so on, offering Nazi salutes and calling for the return to fascism. It would be incomprehensible to them that their descendants would spend the liberty won to them from the defeat of Hitler is now being used to honour his legacy.

This isn't meant to hijack the thread and make it about Nazism, it's a parallel moment. Sexism has fluctuated over time, as many social issues have. I've been posting a great deal about ancient history on the history thread on this forum and having studied it a lot, I can tell you that the social issues surrounding sexuality ebb and flow, too.

For most of ancient Rome's history, sexuality was fluid. There was no concept of gay and straight, although the early Kingdom of Rome celebrated allowing those who weren't interested in having children because they tended to bed with the same sex. By the time of the Republic, it was no real big deal and most women had a great deal of sexual freedom, including divorce rights, access to abortion (albeit very dangerous in most cases), no legal requirements to marry at all, freely available wet nurses for working mothers who could afford it and so on. It wasn't perfect (they still couldn't vote) but it was better than what followed.

Within a few centuries, though, during the early Empire, these freedoms had gradually eroded. Women were stripped of most citizenship rights until they had three children survive into adulthood. Their ability to accuse somebody of rape was also more limited; while once a free citizen could appear before a magistrate, over time this right was lost and instead they needed to ask their pater familias to appear on their behalf. For unmarried women that meant their father, for married women their husband... which was very difficult if it was their husband who they were accusing.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

But is it actually going to drive meaningful behavioural change? Will it get sexual predators in positions of power and influence to actually rethink this aspect of themselves, or will they just get smarter in how they go about their predatory behaviours? What's the behavioural evolution we're going to see here? In 15-20 years are there just going to be another series of revelations about sexual harassment and abuse once society has further refined itself to regard behaviours today that are tolerated by the victims as intolerable?

I guess you have to define meaningful. I think these types of men are going to have to change their behaviors. This seems like a formative moment to me. That said, this isn't like some sort of revelatory, self-reflective moment for these guys. They are not changing for the right reasons. I have to imagine that the primary evolution you'll see with these men is that they will take this particular perversity away from the workplace.   

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

In other creeper news- I heard Gal Gadot is pulling out as Wonder Woman unless Warner Brothers cuts ties with Brett Ratner

 Was just reading about that.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/11/11/gal-gadot-wont-make-wonder-woman-sequel-unless-brett-ratner-is-out.html?ICID=ref_fark

 

/Awesome. This is the sort of pushback that is going to foment substantive change. Hit 'em in the pocketbook.

[Dr. Pepper]

8 hours ago, ummester said:

To a degree, for sure - but Hollywood has a certain allure, due to the nature of fame and celebrity, that industry outside of entertainment does not have. I'd wager zookeepers don't have a casting couch.

Every industry will have their own version of a casting couch.  I can't think of a single sector that would be without these issues.  I've even seen it in daycares and HR departments.  

5 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

Kelli, you are winning the internet right now.

That is all.

Yes!

 

[ummester]

8 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

You're wrong.  Pretty much any industry that has men with the ability to promote has this.  See earlier comments in the thread about academia, or look at what HR departments do.  There's a reason that every large company has them. 

So it's all men's fault then? I guess the only way to be sure is to segregate workplaces.

[ummester]

2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Every industry will have their own version of a casting couch.  I can't think of a single sector that would be without these issues.  I've even seen it in daycares and HR departments.  

Most of my life I've worked for government - which seems to have a bigger problem with nepotism than anything else. I've heard stories of younger women getting promoted because of their relationships - but never being given a job because they took their top off for the boss or something like that. If that happened, all the older women in the government would come down on the boss like a ton of bricks.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

So it's all men's fault then? I guess the only way to be sure is to segregate workplaces.

Why segregate people when instead you can just not harass people and not assault people?  

[mankytoes]

6 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

#mentoo is a shitty hashtag that is a lot like #alllivesmatter. I don’t take anyone getting assaulted lightly at all. But when men hijack the discussion women are having about their experiences and make it about them- like you bringing up breast cancer in men, like Louis CK’s apology being so much about him and his work, like men distracting from women trying to demonstrate that the MAJORITY of them suffer from this, not that ONLY they do, but trying to use the sheer numbers of your friends and family to show you this, you are taking agency from these people. It happens to men and they can and should speak up, they just shouldn’t hijack #metoo to do that. Women can and should talk about things from their own perspective. By doing so we are not minimizing you because we are discussing something else. Be it about race, sex, gender identity, religion, or sexual preference- the groups that have the most power need to sit down and listen, instead of making it about them. Let other people have their moment to make their statement and stop assuming you know what it is like before doing way more listening than talking.

I don't get this whole "battle of the sexes approach". Just mentioning men doesn't make it "all about men". Should Kevin Spacey's (alleged) victims have kept quiet for now because they are men and this is "women's time" and they are "distracting"? I'm sure your intentions are good, but I really think these aren't produtive ideas you're spreading.

You asked me about breast cancer, I stated a biological fact (which was hilarious to you...).

But I don't think you are, I've been supportive of all the women talking about their experiences. We can have more than one discussion.

I don't use twitter myself, but I always want to encourage people coming forward, I wouldn't want to slag off someone for using the wrong hashtag. Like in England, some male footballers came forward with stories of abuse, they got this reply on twitter from one of our most famous darts' players- "Might be a looney but if some football coach was touching me when i was a kid as i got older i would have went back and sorted that poof out."Dart players tough guys footballers wimps".

I think anyone who has faced injustice should stand up and speak out, no matter their race, sex, gender identity, religion or sexuality. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

6 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

And the reason I think most rapists and assault perpetrators don’t think that’s what they did is mostly anecdotal but I’m sure it’d be echoed by the other ladies here and many of your acquaintances. I’ve been assaulted tons of times in my life, as most women have. When I have called these out as what they are in the moment, the person often says stuff like “I thought you’d like it” or “it was just a joke” or “I was drunk” or “don’t be such a bitch” or “I meant it as a compliment” and I think these were mostly sincere things they thought made it okay. Things that overrode my right to say what happens to my own body.  I’ve had romantic partners film sexual acts without my consent who could not for the life of them understand why that made me angry because “it’s not like I was going to show anyone”  Ask then women you know if a stranger has slapped her ass and what they did if she told them to fuck off. The answers will not be fun to hear.

Fair, thanks for sharing. I would doubt their sincerity a lot of the time, but as you say, you have the personal experience here. I've only got one experience like that, and I didn't get an explanation, the dude just tried to punch me for pushing him (hard) away.

[Theda Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

I do my civic duties, I think next week is Theda again. 

<3

 

You're doing a much better job than me. 

But I have to say I'm seeing a lot of Well Actually's in this thread. 

Mentoo is a demonstration of men just not letting women have ANYTHING. We can't even speak out about our collective experience with sexual harassment and assault without a group of men flailing around shouting at the top of their lungs BUT WOMEN ARE CRAZY WHORE BITCHES!! MEN TOO!! MEN TOOOO! 

There's always at least one man out there who feels he can explain our experiences to us better than we can understand them and I'm sick of it.

I got followed home the other day by a man and it was horrible and he followed me (and my friends) across two main roads, down  loads of little alleyway's and stuff and then stood outside our apartment and stared at us as we got in.

I made a Facebook status about it and next time I saw my nans partner - the closest thing to a grandfather I have, his first reaction on hearing what happened to me wasn't "oh that's horrible I'm glad you're safe" nope. Not at all. It was to say "oh but you said it was a man who did this to you like all men do this. All men don't do this do they? I don' like the way you made it sound like it was all men" (I also really didn't btw lol)

And this is a GOOD man and a man I respect and care about. And that was his reaction. 

Women are so USED to not only having to be VIGILANT about our own body autonomy and safety but also the emotional labour about explaining ANYTHING to men that concerns another man or men are ares collective acting in ares certain way to make sure we don't upset or hurt their feelings beause they don' like the way we EXPLAIN things.  Ridiculous. Women are silenced in so many different ways.

My dad went off about everything being about women thsee days and calling what's happening in the UK at the moment with politicians a "witch hunt". 

So depressing.