Annalee

All the main characters will die.

53 posts in this topic

He can't kill Sansa and Arya offscreen and he won't kill them on it. Or Bran. Probably won't even kill Asha.

If he's willing to kill Tommen and Myrcella on screen or not will be interesting.

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All I know is this.  I will stop reading when or if my favorite character dies.  There is nothing unique or groundbreaking about this story that would make me continue to follow it after the demise of the character that I have followed for twenty years. 

IMO, this author is too preoccupied with trying to create something different, to be different when in reality it is impossible to come up with something unique due to the thousands of books published each year.  Everything that will be said has been said before.  Everything that will be written has been written before.  Heroes have died before.  That's not a new concept in story writing.  I watched a movie last week called "The New Daughter" and everybody died at the end including Kevin Costner.  Children died.  The dad blew up his daughter rather let her turn into one of the creatures.  I read "Where the Red Fern Grows" as a kid and the hounds died.  I don't see the point to going out of the way to make a the story break trope.   Just my $.02. 

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5 hours ago, Annalee said:

The more I read of George Martin's short stories the more depressed I get.  I am now convinced that all of the main characters will die and the only ones left alive at the end are the secondary characters.  This is a shocking revelation to most of you and many will doubt this.  I will advice you to read his short stories and pay particular attention to the fates of the protagonists.  I am also of the belief that some of the plot lines will end in a state of ambiguity.  By that I mean some of the plot lines will not have a resolution when the story reaches its end. 

George Martin is an elderly man and he may feel the need to have his main characters die with him.  At least he doesn't want them to live on past his own time.  This is sad to his readers and it does not make good reasoning to me but he is harsh and cynical.  Many of his characters possess those same traits but we need to remember that there are many things about Mr. Martin that we do not know about.  I think there is a little of him in the leading characters like Daenerys Targaryen and Havilland Tuf.  George Martin would love to prescribe solutions to world problems if he could.  Tyrion carries his cynicism and vulnerability in the pages. Jorah Mormont has his pragmatic and practical side that allows him to see through the fog of B.S. that otherwise blind the more idealistic characters.  Some of his fans believe him a hippie but this is one hippie who isn't just about spreading love.  He's not an advocate of peace at all costs.  There is love in his stories but it's rarely the ideal love like we think of.  It's rarely love between two unmarried people who deeply love one another, both virgins, get married, have sex, and raise a family.  A George Martin romance will always have a fly in the soup. 

George said in an interview that the end will not be an apocalypse but I am of the belief that it will not be an improvement over the current situation.  I know many readers and fans are expecting peace, prosperity, economic boom, democracy, and the continuation of the reigns of the Targaryens, Starks, Lannisters, and Tyrells over their lands.  I am sad to say this.  I no longer believe that will be the ending.  The land of Westeros will barely survive and expect the classic strongholds like the Red Keep, Casterly, Eyrie, Winterfell, and Highgarden to fall.  It may be as some fans on this forum are predicting, the humans will lose the war and the survivors will have to migrate east by boat or land bridge.  

The secondary and lower characters that I believe will survive are:  Samwell, Jorah, Marwyn, Little Finger, Craster's boy, Ned Dayne, Varys, Alliser Thorne, Tristane, Rickon, Greyworm, Robert Arryn, Meera.  A few other minor characters will survive.  Many Freys will survive and a few of the Tyrells just because of their numbers. 

The Hightowers have a knack for going with the flow.  They don't swim against the power current.  They have shown over many centuries that they know how to accept and adapt to change.  I think they will survive.  With the exception of the brief mental break downwhen Otto tried to steal the throne this family has shown wisdom and flexibility.  The Freys who inherit Walder's knack for survival and willingness to swim with the current will serve them well.  The Freys and the Hightowers are surviving but not because they're politically savvy.  They know who they can dump on and who they can't.  This is a skill that the Starks never figured out and never will.  Someone like Alliser Thorne is a survivor and I think he will live through the end.  Lastly, the screwups are not going to make it because our author is harsh to people who screw up (Catelyn, Robb, Jon, Oberyn, Robert).  When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  Cersei is mucking up royally and that's not increasing her chances of survival.  One more thing and this is piling on the bad news, I know.  Some will have fates worse than death.  The others make zombies so it is only safe to assume that some of our main characters will get caught and transformed to wights.

The more fan theories I read that are stated as fact the more convinced I become that none of them will be correct in their prophecies (see quotes regarding the nature of prophecies as per Marwen and Tyrion).  Points for suggesting that GRRM will kill off all of the main characters because he is old and doesn't want his creations to out-live him, I guess. 

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Sure, GRRM has plenty of stories where main characters die. But he also writes more traditionally happy endings once in a while like in:

Spoiler

Unsound Variations

I don't think we can say anything for sure about the ending to asoiaf other than he will leave some things ambiguous.

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I'm not much of a regular on these forums, so I can't speak for this community, but in my experience most people seem to expect a generic fantasy ending (r+l=j, targaryen restoration, good guys beat white walkers, the whole deal) albeit with a lot of character deaths/destruction, so nothing you've said is really groundbreaking honestly. I think that whatever the ending is that George is planning, it will be very dark but in more of a cerebral way than a bloodbath way. Major character deaths aren't even something to hype up at this point in the series and I think what he's planning will be philosophical or have some type of commentary to read into.

In terms of character deaths though, I basically agree with your prediction, although I guarantee some POVs are going to make it (Sansa is definitely going to survive lol), or how else will we know what happened? I don't think the logic of who survives will have anything to do with morality like a lot of people might expect, such as Cersei or Littlefinger dying because they're bad and they just have to. I could easily see them making it along with some of the more heroic characters.

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10 hours ago, Annalee said:

The more I read of George Martin's short stories the more depressed I get. 

Me kinda as well, but that's not because he kills some characters, but because basically nothing at all happens in FFC/DWD/the sample chapters of WoW.
 

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I am now convinced that all of the main characters will die and the only ones left alive at the end are the secondary characters.  This is a shocking revelation to most of you and many will doubt this.

[sarcasm] Yes, Martin is actually not interested in telling an interesting or coherent story, these books are really just vehicles to indulge his fetish in writing death scenes. And yes, this is a very "shocking" "revelation" and you are positively the first person in the history of this fandom to suggest this. [/sarcasm]
 

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  I will advice you to read his short stories and pay particular attention to the fates of the protagonists.

Oh yay, one of those theories that tries to glean info on the ending of SOIAF by comparing it to the short stories.
 

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  I am also of the belief that some of the plot lines will end in a state of ambiguity.  By that I mean some of the plot lines will not have a resolution when the story reaches its end.

You mean like in most of the better written portions of 20th/21st century literature?

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George Martin is an elderly man and he may feel the need to have his main characters die with him.  At least he doesn't want them to live on past his own time.

This doesn't even begin to make sense and you are playing armchair psychologist. Now I wouldn't especially care if all the main players are dead by the last page, but I see no indication of this motivation.
Unless a sequel is published characters in a novel don't have a "life" beyond the last page of their story anyway. And even if a character dies on page they "live on" as their story remains in the public mindset no matte how alive their author is at the moment. So  this is senseless and futile at the same time.
 

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There is love in his stories but it's rarely the ideal love like we think of.  It's rarely love between two unmarried people who deeply love one another, both virgins, get married, have sex, and raise a family.  A George Martin romance will always have a fly in the soup. 

What does that have to do with anything? Why is it "everybody finds their one true love and has seventeen babies and five puppies/kittens" or "rocks fall, everybody dies"? There's a lot of ground between those two extremes.
And are you really invested in whether the sorry loser who lusts after the white 13-year-old gets his chance to be with her?
How many well written fantasy stories end with "Love Ever After Without Problems Ever" anyway? Because the only example I can think of is Sam and Rosie in the LoTR and Rosie is also dead by the end of the epilogues (spoilerz!!!!)
 

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The land of Westeros will barely survive and expect the classic strongholds like the Red Keep, Casterly, Eyrie, Winterfell, and Highgarden to fall.

How exactly would that be a "bad" ending or turn of events? It would be freaking epic to have an endgame where that much actual change and tearing down of the old happens. 
My worries are the opposites. I'm afraid that the story will end with basically nothing changed except for the animal symbol of the house that sits the throne.

 

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It may be as some fans on this forum are predicting, the humans will lose the war and the survivors will have to migrate east by boat or land bridge.

Nah, the ending will be "bittersweet" Again I don't understand why people interpret "bittersweet" as an absolutely terrible turn of events. The LoTR is bittersweet, the Last Unicorn is bittersweet (on the bitter side of bittersweet really) "Bittersweet" does not mean hopelessness and death all around. 

 

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Lots of speculation

This is rather pointless. You just make wild guesses at the fates of some second, third and fourth tier characters.

And again, I'm not writing this because I desperately want any of the characters to survive, at this point I'm only rooting for the story to end, at all and in a hopefully fairly epic way.
And an apocalyptic war that tears down the wall, castles that have been established for millennia and society as a while alongside extinguishing family lines left and right and killing main characters like flies would be a pretty epic way to end it.
Though if we are unlucky the story will end with the council of the Others (introduced in 2023 in a sample chapter for WoW) still five years from voting on whether they should take steps to plan to consider to move towards actions that might result in them breaching the walls some when during the next three decades.

Edited by Orphalesion

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George has said that some fans have guessed the ending.  But there is a big problem.  There are many fans and there are many guesses as to the ending.  So George didn't say which fans are right.  That brings us back to the beginning and the reality is we don't know how the story will end.  Any good story creator will want to surprise his readers.  Reading those books take time and most will not buy the book when they already have the ending confirmed.  Expect surprises.

I don't think George will randomly pick out the survivors.  He is if anything logical.  I agree that stupidity kills people like the cases of Robb, Jon, Catelyn, and Ned.  But you know, real life baddies like Roose do survive and they succeed in the world of business and politics.  The good can die as easily as the bad.  The people in danger are the ones who are dumb and we have seen this in the case of little Walder.  But some people just get lucky, like Theon and Arya.  Luck is bound to run out though. 

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17 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  Sansa will survive.  Her character is changing dramatically and she will be a completely different character by the end.  The wolves will survive and perhaps Bran, Arya and Jon in a second life.  Dany will not, she is the last dragon.

I am with you on this. I have long believed Sansa would survive. I really like your idea about Brienne writing Jamie's deeds in the white book. I am not sure about Tyrion writing the story of ice and fire and capturing the deeds of the last heros....though I believe the idea is right, I have Same pegged for this job.

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3 hours ago, Allardyce said:

  So George didn't say which fans are right.

Just by the law of large numbers, someone out there had to have got it right.

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35 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I am with you on this. I have long believed Sansa would survive. I really like your idea about Brienne writing Jamie's deeds in the white book. I am not sure about Tyrion writing the story of ice and fire and capturing the deeds of the last heros....though I believe the idea is right, I have Same pegged for this job.

Tryrion's POV constantly references songs and histories, so I think he is likely to survive to tell the tale.  Look what he has survived so far as Lan the Clever's descendant.  I'm not so sure about Sam. Whatever he learns about the Watch, the Wall, the Others or the prophecy and his physical description as moon-faced like Othor; his own dream of feasting with his dead brothers from the Watch; I think foretells a different ending. 

I choose Aegon to survive because I think Rhaegar knew that he was in fact the PwiP.  Specifically, the prince to restore peace, prosperity and justice rather than AA.   Marrying Sansa and Aegon will be Tyrion's way of righting the wrongs that have been committed upon her, the joining of ice and fire bloodlines in the next generation.

Another teary-eyed ending would be for Podrick to write up both Jaime and Brienne in the White Book. 

Edited by LynnS

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41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Tryrion's POV constantly references songs and histories, so I think he is likely to survive to tell the tale.  Look what he has survived so far as Lan the Clever's descendant.  I'm not so sure about Sam. Whatever he learns about the Watch, the Wall, the Others or the prophecy and his physical description as moon-faced like Othor; his own dream of feasting with his dead brothers from the Watch; I think foretells a different ending. 

I choose Aegon to survive because I think Rhaegar knew that he was in fact the PwiP.  Specifically, the prince to restore peace, prosperity and justice rather than AA.   Marrying Sansa and Aegon will be Tyrion's way of righting the wrongs that have been committed upon her, the joining of ice and fire bloodlines in the next generation.

Another teary-eyed ending would be for Podrick to write up both Jaime and Brienne in the White Book. 

What you say about Tyrion is interesting and worth consideration and your point about Sam being moon-faced is excellent. I am not sure I am convinced, but I do think it bears rethinking on my part so thanks.

 

The Aegon stuff seems a little far out for me. wrt the PTWP I often (and frankly unsuccessfully ask myself) "by whom/

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Just now, YOVMO said:

What you say about Tyrion is interesting and worth consideration and your point about Sam being moon-faced is excellent. I am not sure I am convinced, but I do think it bears rethinking on my part so thanks.

The Aegon stuff seems a little far out for me. wrt the PTWP I often (and frankly unsuccessfully ask myself) "by whom/

I don't know about Sam.  Perhaps he can change his own future and his dream is a morrow not yet made.  I'd like to see him survive.

The Aegon stuff is really asking the question: was Dany's vision of Rhaegar true?  Since Martin says this is Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon, that's true enough for me.  Why did Rhaegar change his mind about being the PwiP in favor of Aegon?  I think he learned more about the prophecy himself when he went on his solo trips to Summerhall.  I think he consulted the GoHH himself in exchange for songs and learned that he was not the PwiP, but that his son was the prince of the prophecy.  But Aegon only meant to be one part in the song of ice and fire and ultimately Rhaegar's goal was to restore peace, prosperity and justice to the realm.  That would be the legacy of the PwiP.  But the prophecy includes waking the dragon and dragons from stone and for that there must be one more.  Aemon has it party correct, that Dany is the one who is able to be mother of dragons; part of the failed mission of Summerhall to hatch dragon eggs. The thing that Rhaegar knew that there must be two rather than one or the other; that both are necessary.    

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't know about Sam.  Perhaps he can change his own future and his dream is a morrow not yet made.  I'd like to see him survive.

I confess that I see Sam surviving and playing a more and more pivotal role mostly because I feel he is grrms avatar in the series and not based on any real textual analysis. I know this is poor exegetical work, but I can't shake the thought.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Aegon stuff is really asking the question: was Dany's vision of Rhaegar true? 

There was an interesting line in the old show West Wing where a clergyman (can't remember which denomination) asked someone "do you believe the bible is literally true" and he responded saying "yes I do, but I don't think man is smart enough to understand it"

 

I always liked this idea wrt to things like this. Is Dany's vision of Rhaegar true? Absolutely. Does it mean what it seems to mean? Possibly, but I think probably not. Remember what Marwyn says of prophecy. That Aegon changed his mind about being ptwp in favor of his son is not in dispute at all. But what is questionable is whether Rhaegar was right, on what things he was right, etc. Rhaegar is often given a lot of credit for knowing things and being correct about things which he very likely was totally wrong about in some places.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 

Since Martin says this is Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon, that's true enough for me.  Why did Rhaegar change his mind about being the PwiP in favor of Aegon?  I think he learned more about the prophecy himself when he went on his solo trips to Summerhall.  I think he consulted the GoHH himself in exchange for songs and learned that he was not the PwiP, but that his son was the prince of the prophecy.

Again, I think you are right here for sure....including RT consulting GoHH. I also feel that Dany isn't who she seems. Too much mystery surrounding her birth. I can hypothesize forever, but I think the only thing we can really be sure of is that there is a lot of mystery to Dany's birth and it possible that she is not the Daughter of Arys and Rhaella and that who Dany is will very much play a role here.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 

  But Aegon only meant to be one part in the song of ice and fire and ultimately Rhaegar's goal was to restore peace, prosperity and justice to the realm.  That would be the legacy of the PwiP.  But the prophecy includes waking the dragon and dragons from stone and for that there must be one more.  Aemon has it party correct, that Dany is the one who is able to be mother of dragons; part of the failed mission of Summerhall to hatch dragon eggs. The thing that Rhaegar knew that there must be two rather than one or the other; that both are necessary.    

Everything you say here is logical and makes sense, but I just feel there are too many loose ends at the moment to be very sure about it as any number of other explanations can be rational. In order to make your read more than just logically possible, but pushed into the category of likely it would need to preclude other explanations as well as explain a whole lot of things.

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21 hours ago, Annalee said:

snip

Once upon a time there was an ugly barnacle. He was so ugly, everybody died. The end.

Valar Morghulis, Valar Barnaclus

 

 

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oiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii my names garfield and i love lasagna

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Arya Stark will most likely die to be honest, here's why.

Over the last 5 books she has suffered tremendous amounts of mental* damage, the witness of her father's death, the atrocities at Harrenhall, the people she's killed, the death of her mother, the supposed death of most other family members and friends.
Arya feels betrayed when Hot Pie and Gendry stay at the Inn, she says that they're not her pack etc.

Arya's arch is all about finding friends and fitting in, witht the way she's acting and how she is. Furthermore we know from ADWD prologue that after a skinchanger dies, it takes on the body of it's companial animal.

 

The bittersweet will be that Arya dies but she lives on as Nymeria, riding with her pack in the Riverlands 'til the end times.

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1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Everything you say here is logical and makes sense, but I just feel there are too many loose ends at the moment to be very sure about it as any number of other explanations can be rational. In order to make your read more than just logically possible, but pushed into the category of likely it would need to preclude other explanations as well as explain a whole lot of things.

Will we ever get an answer to all those loose ends? Martin says that he isn't telling; he is showing.  That's very clever.  What have we been shown but some visions.

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If they all die ... what’s the point of emotionally attaching yourself to the story? 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Will we ever get an answer to all those loose ends? Martin says that he isn't telling; he is showing.  That's very clever.  What have we been shown but some visions.

Fair enough. But as we know visions are tricksy. I really think that the answers just won't be as clean and straight forward. Again, your analysis makes perfect logical sense, but I don't think it is the only one that does. The antinomy can only be resolved by next two books actually coming out which I get less and less hopeful for every day.

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2 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Fair enough. But as we know visions are tricksy. I really think that the answers just won't be as clean and straight forward. Again, your analysis makes perfect logical sense, but I don't think it is the only one that does. The antinomy can only be resolved by next two books actually coming out which I get less and less hopeful for every day.

Yes, it's difficult to hang on for so long.  I still think WoW stands a chance of completion some time next year.  I'm not quite ready to give up on Martin yet.    

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