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A Who Sent the Catspaw Theory


Chrissie

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58 minutes ago, Ran said:

Also, Martin isn't "non-commital" when he says that ASoS resolves the mystery. That's pretty much as straightforward as you can get without his explicitly saying what the answer is in a book that had (at the time) not yet been published. I know THB pointed this out, but it's worth reiterating it because I've never seen an argument for someone not Joffrey that stands up to the idea that ASoS resolves it.

And in particular, GRRM's assertion that he believed you could guess the answer from the first two novels surely rules out Mance Rayder (which I see has been floated), a character no one has ever met and had no reason to believe was involved in events south of the Wall prior to ASoS and the reveal that he had been at Winterfell when Robert was there.

 

 

This is why I prefer my Joffrey-inspired-by-Littlefinger proposal: it conforms to the text and GR's statements while still leaving room for a nice reveal later that clears up all of this dissatisfaction among readers that Martin made a boner of this mystery.

Before they left KL, Littlefinger tells Joffrey that Ned becoming hand is bad for Robert, Cersei, House Lannister and even Joffrey himself, and the only thing that could prevent this is the death of one of Ned's children. Then, the actual clumsy plan and the stupid decision to use Robert's knife is all Joffrey. If Bran hadn't fallen, it would have been one of the other children, probably Sansa.

So now we have a clearer motive for Joffrey, being manipulated by LF, just as occurs later in the books, and we can square that with Martin's statements confirming who sent the catspaw: it was Joffrey, but LF, as usual, was the behind-the-scenes instigator. And all this can happen without LF having to know about Bran's fall or anything else that has happened at Winterfell.

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49 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That's why I keep saying it's not George's best work, IMO. It is very unsatisfactory. 

I hear you, I'd just rather think better of the story until proven otherwise...

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I think you mistook my meaning. I'm saying that who the reader thinks sent the catspaw is basically irrelevant. George needed a way to move the plotline forward. That is why Joff as perpetrator feels forced and unsatisfactory. 

I disagree, and frankly don't understand how it could be irrelevant... that's like saying who Jon's parents are is irrelevant... it's a pivotal mystery in the series... this is the act that led to Cat going south, kidnapping  Tyrion, and starting the war of five kings... way more so than Bran being thrown.

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As for Mance... What evidence in GoT and CoK points at Mance? Or are we ignoring the SSM where George says we could guess who it was in the first two books?

Every quote I used on page three before the "bag of silver" quote when I did a rundown of motive/means/etc... I'm sure I could find more though... that was a quick search today. Also see Bael. And remember:

the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart."

...

 
"I'll hear it all the same."
"Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider." 
Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."
...
But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry.
...
They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle.
...
"It never happened," Jon said.
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. 

...

"She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . ."
". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well." 
"You knew him?"

 

But I do love my tinfoil, and I'd even consider Mance a prime candidate for being the three eyed crow.

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There is a lack of clear and obvious motivation for Joffrey to do this. The books tell us he wanted a pat on the head from Daddy. This is unsatisfying, i know.

More then that, there is a lack of evidence and a lack of motive... in fact he is quoted as contradicting the assumed motive. And I still don't see any evidence it was him who hired the guy besides Tyrion's wild suspicions...

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The results don't help Joffrey. He never gets his pat on the head. This is why I think this isn't George's best work. 

I'm willing to believe something that nonsensical has to do with a lack of understanding on my end... at least until all is said and done.

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4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I disagree, and frankly don't understand how it could be irrelevant... that's like saying who Jon's parents are is irrelevant... it's a pivotal mystery in the series... this is the act that led to Cat going south, kidnapping  Tyrion, and starting the war of five kings... way more so than Bran being thrown.

No. Who the perpetrator actually was does not lead to these events. Who the characters think the perpetrator was led to these events. 

 

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Every quote I used on page three before the "bag of silver" quote when I did a rundown of motive/means/etc... I'm sure I could find more though... that was a quick search today. Also see Bael. And remember:

the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart."

I feel like this quote works against Mance as the perpetrator. Would Mance hire someone to do his killing?

I'm done here though. Thanks for the talk! I enjoyed you're 3EC is not BR OP a while back. Even though I still disagree, it was well written and did shift me from 95% sure to about 75%.

Cheers!

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I do think it is reasonable that Joffrey would be motivated by Robert's offhand remark when you look at the dysfunctional family dynamics.  This was discussed a while ago on another thread (I can't remember the OP) and it led to some interesting clues about Joffrey's psychology.  It may seem like I'm going off topic, but bear with me. 

Recall the incident with the pregnant female cat that Joffrey cut open to take out the kittens.  He brought those fetal kittens to Robert who responded by hitting Joffrey so hard he knocked out his baby teeth.  So Joffrey can't be more than 6-7 years old when we typically start to lose our baby teeth.  It always struck me as to why Robert hit Joffrey that hard over that.  It sounds like a direct punch or a backhand hit to knock his teeth out.  Sure, it must have been a disgusting sight, but Robert is a battle hardened warrior.  He’s definitely seen more gruesome things on the battlefield.  His over reaction could not have been out of disgust alone, but an intense visceral rage and not because Robert is this great animal lover either.  Think about it.  Little Joffrey is showing Robert the kittens… look at the kittens, Robert!!!   The pregnant female cat is a reference to the mother lioness Cersei.    

Jaime and Cersei were never careful or discreet about their affair.   The incest is one of the worst kept secrets.  Servants notice things and they talk.  Even a young child can witness some things and put two and two together when he sees the pregnant mother cat.  Joffrey has obviously seen his mother pregnant with his siblings.  Medieval children would be raised with a matter of fact understanding of where babies come from because of living so close to livestock and other animals.  So the punch probably didn’t come from the fetal kittens, but maybe something young Joffrey unwittingly said to Robert as he presented them.  Even though Jon Arryn was going to go to Robert with the incest accusation, I think it’s wholly possible deep down Robert suspected something before.  By nature he is someone that avoids unpleasantness and anything that undermines his self image.   A man like Robert I can believe reacted violently to the mere suggestion that his wife was cuckolding him right under his nose with his brother-in-law and someone appointed to his own kingsguard.  Should such a thing be acknowledged to be true, it would be utterly humiliating.  After Robert's reaction and Joffrey get a little older, there would be more understanding of incest and that it is considered an abomination.  It would also cause a huge underlying resentment towards Cersei and Uncle Jaime for making him a bastard and an abomination; however, he is still young and still feels powerless against his mother's dominating personality.  Like Robert, this would not be something Joffrey could ever admit to out loud, but bury inside.  What he can do at that young age is to heavily identify with his father, the stag.  To prove to himself, not just other people, that he is Robert's son.  This isn't about love for Robert, it's about denying the truth.

We can see his efforts to impress and identify with his father not just in arranging for the catspaw to finish off Bran.  He also kills Tommen’s fawn (a mini-stag symbol) and claims the skin and the Baratheon identity for himself.  Even every time he says “Mother says I must…” we can feel the resentment there.  As time goes on and Joffrey becomes king, he feels his own absolute power as he ceases to listen to Cersei anymore.  And he continues to torture cats like when he’s shooting them with his new crossbow.  Not coincidentally, this also occurs at a moment he has his kingsguard physically and sexually abuse Sansa.  He is transferring his hatred of his mother to women in general as false creatures.  Sansa is a “traitor” to him afterall.  His first unsupervised outing with Sansa in AGOT definitely had date rape vibes with his plying her with alcohol that she isn’t used to. 

And Jaime is not excluded.  While Sansa is a hostage, Joffrey knows that Jaime’s life depends on Sansa’s safety.  He doesn’t care.  It’s in his M.O. to use proxies to torture others.  So by causing Sansa pain, he can theoretically cause “Uncle Jaime” pain. 

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“And he died?” With the ugly iron head of the quarrel staring her in the face, it was hard to think what else to say.“Of course he died, he had my quarrel in his throat. There was a woman throwing rocks, I got her as well, but only in the arm.” Frowning, he lowered the crossbow. “I’d shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they’d kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you’ll just be punished and we’ll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn’t yield. Dog, hit her.“     

He wants Robb to know how Sansa is suffering probably so some retaliation will be visited upon the imprisoned Jaime.  He also has no respect for his grandfather Tywin and openly mocks him too.

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Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."
Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.
Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.
He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

This is all distancing himself from the Lannister identity that was thrust upon him by his mother.  Yes I know there are definitely traits Joffrey shares with his mother, some things he cannot easily escape and much of what Cersei taught him has stuck.  It’s too easy to assume Joffrey is as completely stupid as the POV characters who hate him think he is.  He’s definitely not one to think things through, but there’s reason to suspect he knows some shameful family secrets and he’s acting out his anger in ways that he can without admitting the truth.

When he even threatens to rape Sansa after she is married to Tyrion, he makes it clear he is emulating his father:

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"A king can have other women. Whores. My father did. One of the Aegons did too. The third one, or the fourth. He had lots of whores and lots of bastards." As they whirled to the music, Joff gave her a moist kiss. "My uncle will bring you to my bed whenever I command it."

Everything he does, he connects it to being like his father whether it's boasting of his skill as a warrior, being ruthless and strong, or being a sexually aggressive man.  So looking back on the catspaw incident, it makes sense why Joffrey would latch on to the idea that he's man enough to carry out what his father said ought to be done with Bran.  Even if it's something he would share with no one else, in his private thoughts he can say "yes, I am my father's son.  I did what he would do."  This is completely believable to me as Joffrey's sole motivation because that drive to emulate Robert is remains so consistently extreme over time.  Me personally, I don't believe LF had anything to do with it, but I'm just saying the "daddy issues" motive actually does make satisfying sense to Joffrey's character.  I think the problem with the catspaw plot is you can really feel the heavy hand of the author needing to kick off the story, but it doesn't bother me and I don't think the overall plot suffers for it.   

*edit*  I will say Robert knowing deep down the truth also explains his neglect of TOmmen and Myrcella too.  These are great playful, happy kids who would have been the types to give Robert the adoration he constantly seeks.  He avoids them completely.  He's caught in a position where he cannot not acknowledge them as his kids, but he also probably doesn't want to look at them and doubt they are his.  

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12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is why I prefer my Joffrey-inspired-by-Littlefinger proposal: it conforms to the text and GR's statements while still leaving room for a nice reveal later that clears up all of this dissatisfaction among readers that Martin made a boner of this mystery.

But there is not going to be any such reveal. The issue is closed. GRRM has told us the solution is there: there's no reason to revisit it, and GRRM has not done so in two books. 

As for Joff's motive, like I said, it doesn't really matter if Jaime is right about trying to win Robert's favour or if it's more nuanced (as I said, I prefer a slightly different view where Joff was trying to prove to himself that he was worthy by doing what his father only talked about, but either works, and there can be other variations). The only bit that matters is that overhearing Robert's remark is the inciting event. Given how screwed up Joff's psyche is, there can be multiple reasons why that incites him to action.

In the end, though, the really compelling evidence is that there is no reason to think we'll ever revisit the topic. You have to remember that these books are a story, not a game. I know some people would prefer to think that there is a 'secret' answer that only clever, perceptive people will see: the 'that's too obvious' argument is used frequently on this forum to justify a range of complex theories. But that's not what the books are about. They're stories first and foremost and the majority of readers will engage with them as such. The idea that the author threw out a red herring (twice) to throw these readers off the 'true' answer to a mystery he has said he does not intend to revisit, and has shown no signs that he will ever revisit, is simply not tenable. The answer is given in the text. Joff did it. 

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

You have to remember that these books are a story, not a game. I know some people would prefer to think that there is a 'secret' answer that only clever, perceptive people will see: the 'that's too obvious' argument is used frequently on this forum to justify a range of complex theories. But that's not what the books are about. They're stories first and foremost and the majority of readers will engage with them as such.

This should be pinned.

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9 hours ago, mormont said:

But there is not going to be any such reveal. The issue is closed. GRRM has told us the solution is there: there's no reason to revisit it, and GRRM has not done so in two books. 

As for Joff's motive, like I said, it doesn't really matter if Jaime is right about trying to win Robert's favour or if it's more nuanced (as I said, I prefer a slightly different view where Joff was trying to prove to himself that he was worthy by doing what his father only talked about, but either works, and there can be other variations). The only bit that matters is that overhearing Robert's remark is the inciting event. Given how screwed up Joff's psyche is, there can be multiple reasons why that incites him to action.

In the end, though, the really compelling evidence is that there is no reason to think we'll ever revisit the topic. You have to remember that these books are a story, not a game. I know some people would prefer to think that there is a 'secret' answer that only clever, perceptive people will see: the 'that's too obvious' argument is used frequently on this forum to justify a range of complex theories. But that's not what the books are about. They're stories first and foremost and the majority of readers will engage with them as such. The idea that the author threw out a red herring (twice) to throw these readers off the 'true' answer to a mystery he has said he does not intend to revisit, and has shown no signs that he will ever revisit, is simply not tenable. The answer is given in the text. Joff did it. 

Possible, but this answer is really not satisfactory to many readers because it has a couple giant holes. 1) It implies that GRRM wrote a super contrived giant coincidence that Joffrey just happened to choose LF's dagger and then LF had the perfect opportunity to blame it on Tyrion, and 2) why would anyone arm an assassin with a fancy dagger to kill a small boy in a coma? Why arm him at all? Why wouldn't he just smother Bran with a pillow? Then everyone would assume that the kid who fell from a tower died in his coma, and no one would even be suspicious of foul play.

I do think the answer is already there and somewhat easy to figure out, but I don't think it was Joffrey. And I won't be surprised if GRRM makes this clear via Bran looking into the past in TWOW or ADOS.

@Chrissie it was Bloodraven (and LF)

Short version of the theory: Unless GRRM wrote some really contrived coincidences for the sake of advancing the plot in AGOT, the clear explanation is that the fancy dagger was planted on purpose. Someone wanted Cat to notice that the weapon was "too fine a weapon" for the assassin to own and go on a murder mystery adventure (which she did). And the reason she suspected the Lannisters was because of Lysa's letter blaming them for the death of Jon Arryn... which was actually part of LF's plan. And it turned out to be LF's dagger. But LF couldn't have acted alone because he would have no way of predicting that Summer would kill the assassin and foil the attempt. The only person who could have done that was Bloodraven, who has the power to skinchange animals (and possibly time travel if he lied to Bran). The assassin was armed with LF's fancy dagger because they planned for him to be killed by Summer.

:cheers: 

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22 hours ago, Ran said:

What assumption? It's plain in what you wrote that you are arguing that your feeling that it isn't Joffrey means that you can ignore contrary evidence.:P 

Also, Martin isn't "non-commital" when he says that ASoS resolves the mystery. That's pretty much as straightforward as you can get without his explicitly saying what the answer is in a book that had (at the time) not yet been published. I know THB pointed this out, but it's worth reiterating it because I've never seen an argument for someone not Joffrey that stands up to the idea that ASoS resolves it.

And in particular, GRRM's assertion that he believed you could guess the answer from the first two novels surely rules out Mance Rayder (which I see has been floated), a character no one has ever met and had no reason to believe was involved in events south of the Wall prior to ASoS and the reveal that he had been at Winterfell when Robert was there.

I doubt you've read my crackpot theory, but I would argue that it does meet this criteria. 90% of the clues are there in AGOT, and we didn't actually meet Bloodraven in ASOS, but it is clear by the end of the book that Bran and company are traveling north to meet the TEC.

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22 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

2) why would anyone arm an assassin with a fancy dagger to kill a small boy in a coma? Why arm him at all? Why wouldn't he just smother Bran with a pillow? Then everyone would assume that the kid who fell from a tower died in his coma, and no one would even be suspicious of foul play.

Yes Littlefinger could use pillow. Sending assassin with fancy danger is Joff's stupid plan.

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11 hours ago, mormont said:

But there is not going to be any such reveal. The issue is closed. GRRM has told us the solution is there: there's no reason to revisit it, and GRRM has not done so in two books. 

As for Joff's motive, like I said, it doesn't really matter if Jaime is right about trying to win Robert's favour or if it's more nuanced (as I said, I prefer a slightly different view where Joff was trying to prove to himself that he was worthy by doing what his father only talked about, but either works, and there can be other variations). The only bit that matters is that overhearing Robert's remark is the inciting event. Given how screwed up Joff's psyche is, there can be multiple reasons why that incites him to action.

In the end, though, the really compelling evidence is that there is no reason to think we'll ever revisit the topic. You have to remember that these books are a story, not a game. I know some people would prefer to think that there is a 'secret' answer that only clever, perceptive people will see: the 'that's too obvious' argument is used frequently on this forum to justify a range of complex theories. But that's not what the books are about. They're stories first and foremost and the majority of readers will engage with them as such. The idea that the author threw out a red herring (twice) to throw these readers off the 'true' answer to a mystery he has said he does not intend to revisit, and has shown no signs that he will ever revisit, is simply not tenable. The answer is given in the text. Joff did it. 

Yes, I agree 100%. Joff sent the catspaw, and that was revealed in SoS. But also note that the other big reveal in that book, Jon Arryn's killer, came after multiple "reveals" in the previous two novels that Cersei and Jaime were the killers, even though this explanation left many unsatisfactory conflicts with the text and characterizations. When the true, final reveal was made, all questions and conflicts as to motive, opportunity, personalities, etc. were resolved.

So to say that Martin has revealed Joff as the killer and that's the end of it is wishful thinking at best. What we still don't have is the why, and sorry, but Joff trying to impress the father that nearly killed him for killing a cat is a non-starter.

What boggles my mind is that so many readers would simply shrug their shoulders and say Martin left us with an answer that is so full of holes that no one is satisfied no matter what they believe, and ignoring completely that he has done this exact kind of semi/false reveal before. Why bother even reading such an amateurish, sloppy author?

So I contend that what has been revealed so far is the truth, but that there is one more element yet to come out, and that will resolve this conflict as to why Joffrey would take this secret action to impress his father and then never tell him about it, or even more ludicrous, that he would show mercy on a suffering child. With Littlefinger as the instigator, we have a motive that aligns perfectly with Joffrey's characterization: his own, narrow self-interest.

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2 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Yes Littlefinger could use pillow. Sending assassin with fancy danger is Joff's stupid plan.

Sure, that could definitely be the case. But it would be a really stupid plan, even for Joffrey. And we have to accept that he was stupid enough to send the assassin with the dagger but smart enough to tell him to wait until a week after they left to cover his tracks. It is possible, but it seems odd. More importantly, if Joff really did send the assassin, it was a super huge coincidence that he happened to pick LF's dagger and another coincidence that the assassin failed so the dagger could be found at all and another coincidence that Lysa's letter about Jon Arryn caused Cat to blame the Lannisters and head to KL and have the conversation with LF, ultimately leading to Cat kidnapping Tyrion and the Wot5K. It is a whole series of coincidences that played directly into BR's plan to bring Bran north, and so I think it is more likely that BR himself was involved in setting up the whole thing in the first place.

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons

I was wondering when you would arrive to throw your 40k cents in. :D

LOL "40k cents" :lmao: 

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7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sure, that could definitely be the case. But it would be a really stupid plan, even for Joffrey. And we have to accept that he was stupid enough to send the assassin with the dagger but smart enough to tell him to wait until a week after they left to cover his tracks. It is possible, but it seems odd. More importantly, if Joff really did send the assassin, it was a super huge coincidence that he happened to pick LF's dagger and another coincidence that the assassin failed so the dagger could be found at all and another coincidence that Lysa's letter about Jon Arryn caused Cat to blame the Lannisters and head to KL and have the conversation with LF, ultimately leading to Cat kidnapping Tyrion and the Wot5K. It is a whole series of coincidences that played directly into BR's plan to bring Bran north, and so I think it is more likely that BR himself was involved in setting up the whole thing in the first place.

Do we know that Joff said assassin to wait until a week?

Lysa's letter was not coincidence but dagger was coincidence. I think that LF could find a way to blame Lannisters even if dagger wasn't his dagger.

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15 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Yes Littlefinger could use pillow. Sending assassin with fancy danger is Joff's stupid plan.

Imagine assassin coming in without any weapon planing to use pillow and seeing Catlyn. Or even coming with his own pillow, that would be hilarious. "M'lady can I sleep here."

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On 17.11.2017 at 3:35 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I do think it is reasonable that Joffrey would be motivated by Robert's offhand remark when you look at the dysfunctional family dynamics.  This was discussed a while ago on another thread (I can't remember the OP) and it led to some interesting clues about Joffrey's psychology.  It may seem like I'm going off topic, but bear with me. 

...

Great analysis. Joffrey as the one who sent the catspaw always bothered me a bit because it seemed to be so illogical. You made me realize that that's probably the point: he doesn't act all that rationally.

The whole thing is pretty ironic too. He accidentally set off a chain of events that led to his own death because he felt he needed to live up to some sort of standard his father set (in his mind). I always thought there was a lot of insecurity underlying Joff's cruelty. He's a coward who desperately wants to be admired as a hero. This ambivalence alone explains the choice of the dagger imo. He thinks of the murder as a princely act of mercy (I am a hero). But he won't do it himself. Hi hires a lowly assassin (coward). He feels the need to claim this act for himself though, that's why he equips the hand that does it with a princely weapon. The dagger is his proxy, subconsciously. He never intended to boast about the deed or claim it. The assassin wasn't supposed to be caught and was probably ordered to bring the dagger back. He wanted to have the knowledge he did it for himself.

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Joffrey sending the would be assassin does leave some unanswered questions but to me it's the most likely scenario. The other options thrown out just don't stand up to the evidence. 

Myrcella &/Tommen are not cruel, not murderers. They are written to be polar opposites of Joffrey. Even  when they think it's a mercy good little kids do not send assassin's to kill people. 

Mance has no motive to care one way or another about Bran, wouldn't have sent the assassin with a VS dagger, wouldn't have sent anyone at all - if this were his doings he would have done it himself & I would argue would have completed the task. This whole thing reeks of impulsiveness & immaturity neither of which are true of Mance. 

Some of the same could be said of Robert. I could even see him telling Ned to put Bran out of his misery but hiring an assassin to kill him in secrecy is not Robert's MO. Robert gives commands he does not sneak around to conspire. I would almost guarantee Robert didn't give Bran a second thought - he is no concern or problem of his. 

I like @Blue-Eyed Wolf 's analysis on Joffrey's motive. 

3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Imagine assassin coming in without any weapon planing to use pillow and seeing Catlyn. Or even coming with his own pillow, that would be hilarious. "M'lady can I sleep here."

This is hilarious!! 

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On 11/13/2017 at 9:55 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

I think it's pretty clear that Joffrey sent the catspaw. What we don't know is why. Personally, I find it inconceivable that Joff would order a mercy killing on Bran since, well, the words "Joffrey" and "mercy" simply do not jive. It also doesn't make sense that Joff would do it to impress Robert, since there is no way Robert would ever know it was Joffrey unless Joff told him. Joff had plenty time to tell Robert, but he never did, and why would Joffrey expect Robert to be proud of such an act when he practically beat Joffrey to death over the death of a cat some years earlier?

I don't know if someone has mentioned it already, but Joffrey has used "mercy" as a reason to kill someone. Eddard Stark.

When he becomes King, Sansa is begging him to show mercy to her father and Joffrey decided to cut Eddard's head off and calling it a mercy. Sure, LF must have had a hand in the decision to have Ned killed but it's not unheard off for Joffrey to consider death a "mercy".

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King Joffrey looked her up and down. "Your sweet words have moved me," he said gallantly, nodding, as if to say all would be well. "I shall do as you ask . . . but first your father has to confess. He has to confess and say that I'm the king, or there will be no mercy for him."

-Sansa V, AGOT

 

After Eddard's execution:

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Sansa backed away from them. "I did as the queen asked, I wrote the letters, I wrote what she told me. You promised you'd be merciful. Please, let me go home. I won't do any treason, I'll be good, I swear it, I don't have traitor's blood, I don't. I only want to go home." Remembering her courtesies, she lowered her head. "As it please you," she finished weakly.
 
"It does not please me," Joffrey said. "Mother says I'm still to marry you, so you'll stay here, and you'll obey."
 
"I don't want to marry you," Sansa wailed. "You chopped off my father's head!"
 
"He was a traitor. I never promised to spare him, only that I'd be merciful, and I was. If he hadn't been your father, I would have had him torn or flayed, but I gave him a clean death."
 
-Sansa VI, AGOT

Still, I don't think Joffrey was trying to impress Robert, heck if anything he might be trying to impress Sansa or Sandor. i wouldn't find it weird if he thought he was doing Sansa a favor or something in his stupidity, just like when he started threatening Mycah trying to show off. As for Sandor, he's a person who does practise mercy killings as we later find out while journeying with Arya.

And Sandor with Joffrey do have a rather interesting interaction a while before the attempt at Bran's life.

Quote

Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it."

-Tyrion I, AGOT

It's also believed by Cersei that Joffrey did sort of look up to the Hound and might have considered him a sort of father figure, so is it that weird that at this point Joffrey might have done something like that to show off or something to Sandor? I don't know if he ended up telling him because the attempt did fail in the end.

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On 11/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Possible, but this answer is really not satisfactory to many readers because it has a couple giant holes. 1) It implies that GRRM wrote a super contrived giant coincidence that Joffrey just happened to choose LF's dagger

Why would you call it LF's dagger? It was, at that point, Robert's dagger. That it had belonged to LF is confirmed, correct me if I'm wrong, only by Littlefinger's own words... and the app, which also names Joffrey the culprit.

On 11/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

and then LF had the perfect opportunity to blame it on Tyrion,

Either that was a lucky break for Littlefinger (and LF is one lucky mofo), or he had successfully planned the assassin being caught, killed on the spot (so he couldn't spill the beans), but still with the incriminating dagger in hand, and Cat deciding to personally go to King's Landing, taking the dagger with her, and showing it to LF when the opportunity appeared. That is what I call contrived.

And, if blaming Tyrion was Littlefinger's original idea, then why on Earth would he pick Robert Baratheon's dagger to serve that purpose, not some... dunno... Lannister artifact? Seriously.

On 11/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

and 2) why would anyone arm an assassin with a fancy dagger to kill a small boy in a coma? Why arm him at all?

'Cos Joffrey one twisted little shit? Subtle evidence of which could be found in the books. Mebbe he thought that was adding a personal touch.

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16 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Do we know that Joff said assassin to wait until a week?

Lysa's letter was not coincidence but dagger was coincidence. I think that LF could find a way to blame Lannisters even if dagger wasn't his dagger.

Technically no, but the assassin did wait until about 8 days after everyone left WF, so if that wasn't Joff's instructions then it was the assassin taking extra risk upon himself and hiding in WF for over a week for no particular reason. The whole thing is super weird. Why wouldn't the assassin just take the silver and leave? He had supposedly already been paid for the job.

Yeah maybe LF could have still blamed the Lannisters... but he didn't have to because of the giant coincidence that his dagger was used in the attempt.

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Why would you call it LF's dagger? It was, at that point, Robert's dagger. That it had belonged to LF is confirmed, correct me if I'm wrong, only by Littlefinger's own words... and the app, which also names Joffrey the culprit.

Semantics. LF's dagger, Robert's dagger, call it whatever you want. The point is that it belonged to LF a few months earlier and he could credibly blame the assassin on Tyrion. You are wrong. LF demonstrated that he already knew the balance of the dagger and had the muscle memory necessary to accurately throw it. And more importantly, his story is later corroborated by Jaime.

Quote

"I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King's Landing." He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. "It's mine."

Quote

"Tyrion always backed me in the lists," Jaime said, "but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost . . . but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especially when drunk. And when was he not drunk?"

The app is not canon. It is not written by GRRM, and he didn't proofread the entire thing. It is semi-canon.

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Either that was a lucky break for Littlefinger (and LF is one lucky mofo), or he had successfully planned the assassin being caught, killed on the spot (so he couldn't spill the beans), but still with the incriminating dagger in hand, and Cat deciding to personally go to King's Landing, taking the dagger with her, and showing it to LF when the opportunity appeared. That is what I call contrived.

I call it a conspiracy carried out by a time-traveling weirnet/Bloodraven, which I honestly think is more in line with GRRM's writing style. But we are all free to have our own opinions. :) 

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And, if blaming Tyrion was Littlefinger's original idea, then why on Earth would he pick Robert Baratheon's dagger to serve that purpose, not some... dunno... Lannister artifact? Seriously.

I don't know. Mayhaps the assassin needed to discreetly have access to the weapon in WF and LF knew Robert would bring all his weapons north? Mayhaps GRRM simply wanted LF's story to be credibly refuted by both Lannister brothers? Ask GRRM.

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

'Cos Joffrey one twisted little shit? Subtle evidence of which could be found in the books. Mebbe he thought that was adding a personal touch.

If this turns out to be the case I won't be super surprised. But still, the whole situation is quite odd.

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