US politics: Alabama Jones and the Temple of Moore

[Altherion]

2 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Nor is it possibly a verdict that can be established in a court of law. At which point, on what basis can the Senate kick Moore out because people know he's a rapist creep but can't establish it as a criminal conviction, and therefore in the eyes of the law he is not a rapist creep?

If the Senate, by some interpretation of he rules, does actually decide to kick him out, does he have recourse to the courts to prevent his kicking on the basis that no crime has been proven in a court of law? Can these consequences be brought to bear on the basis that everyone knows he's a rapist creep, but no one has proven it to a legal standard?

The courts have no authority over Senate procedure and in fact the Constitution explicitly species the rules for expulsion:

Quote

Each House [of Congress] may determine the Rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two-thirds, expel a member.

So all it takes to kick out a Senator is a two-thirds super-majority and they have no recourse. It doesn't matter that no crime has been committed and, in principle, they could do so simply because two-thirds of Senators just don't like somebody. However, historically, it has taken something really big to get somebody expelled: of the 15 Senators ever to face this sanction, 14 did so because they supported the Confederacy during the Civil war and the 15th was this guy. No Senator has been expelled since the end of the Civil War (though a few have resigned before the Senate could vote on the matter after they were charged with crimes).

It's not obvious to me that Moore will be elected. There is heavy propaganda warfare here and the forces arrayed against him are far greater than those on his side: he's opposed not just by the liberals, but also by the groups who back Senators McConnell, Graham, etc. However, if he does win, I suspect that these Republican Senators will find some technicality to avoid any serious action because they're afraid of the voters.

[LongRider]

27 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

So Don Jr.'s twitter release didn't omit the tweet asking Trump to contest the results and the reporter who wrote the Atlantic story made a false assertion on CNN?

I didn't see the CNN show but that email is mentioned in the Atlantic piece.

[Sivin]

38 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

So Don Jr.'s twitter release didn't omit the tweet asking Trump to contest the results and the reporter who wrote the Atlantic story made a false assertion on CNN?

Or I might have misunderstood or communicated poorly somewhere along the lines. 

9 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

I didn't see the CNN show but that email is mentioned in the Atlantic piece.

 

[Sivin]

Beth Clayton just dropped some SAVAGE shit on Roy Moore supporters. 

[Sivin]

I'd just like to say, this is the moment historians will look back to when they examine if or when the U.S. ceased to be even a modestly functioning democracy. If people aren't in jail over this shit, we're in an era of open U.S. Kleptocracy. 

[Wethers]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

It's not obvious to me that Moore will be elected. There is heavy propaganda warfare here and the forces arrayed against him are far greater than those on his side: he's opposed not just by the liberals, but also by the groups who back Senators McConnell, Graham, etc. However, if he does win, I suspect that these Republican Senators will find some technicality to avoid any serious action because they're afraid of the voters.

To make sure I understand your position correctly, you are saying Moore is a plucky underdog, a victim of heavy propaganda warfare from elite liberals and "mainstream" republicans tilted drastically and unfairly against him?

If you lived in Alabama, would you vote for Moore?

(For the record, I would not vote for Moore if I lived in Alabama, but if I had to guess, he will be elected nonetheless).

[Seli]

11 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

50 Alabama Pastors Approve of Child Molestation

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/360140-more-than-50-alabama-pastors-sign-letter-supporting-roy-moore?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

 

To be fair that letter was from when Moore was simply a terrible judge, before the allegations of child molestation came to be public knowledge.

[maarsen]

7 hours ago, WinterFox said:

Would you feel confident saying one way or another if that's a result of the modern 24 hour news cycle or because this situation really is that slapdicked? 

Definitely the second

[Yukle]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Nor is it possibly a verdict that can be established in a court of law. At which point, on what basis can the Senate kick Moore out because people know he's a rapist creep but can't establish it as a criminal conviction, and therefore in the eyes of the law he is not a rapist creep?

If the Senate, by some interpretation of he rules, does actually decide to kick him out, does he have recourse to the courts to prevent his kicking on the basis that no crime has been proven in a court of law? Can these consequences be brought to bear on the basis that everyone knows he's a rapist creep, but no one has proven it to a legal standard?

The USA Senate has done this before, the precedent is fairly clear. In fact, Mitch McConnell has voted in favour of it for his own party. I can't remember the name: anyone recall it?

[SeanF]

18 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Given how nutball American Conservatism and the Republican Party is, it's really not that strange.

I think I'd have to reconsider my view in light of the new allegations.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, WinterFox said:

I'd just like to say, this is the moment historians will look back to when they examine if or when the U.S. ceased to be even a modestly functioning democracy. If people aren't in jail over this shit, we're in an era of open U.S. Kleptocracy. 

There have been probably been worse politicians even than Roy Moore, previously.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think I'd have to reconsider my view in light of the new allegations.

Well, I have no clue to what will happen. But if he does win, sadly, I won’t be all that surprised because the bar for basic sanity is very low in the Republican Party and American Conservatism. Very low indeed.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Nor is it possibly a verdict that can be established in a court of law. At which point, on what basis can the Senate kick Moore out because people know he's a rapist creep but can't establish it as a criminal conviction, and therefore in the eyes of the law he is not a rapist creep?

If the Senate, by some interpretation of he rules, does actually decide to kick him out, does he have recourse to the courts to prevent his kicking on the basis that no crime has been proven in a court of law? Can these consequences be brought to bear on the basis that everyone knows he's a rapist creep, but no one has proven it to a legal standard?

I thought a vote to expell was like impeachment and trial to remove from office, purely political the allegations for removal are enough and the Senate has the inherent power to remove a Senator that it disapproves of?  Is that not the case?

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I thought a vote to expell was like impeachment and trial to remove from office, purely political the allegations for removal are enough and the Senate has the inherent power to remove a Senator that it disapproves of?  Is that not the case?

Do you think that Trump will nominate Moore to the next vacancy on the Supreme Court?

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

Do you think that Trump will nominate Moore to the next vacancy on the Supreme Court?

It's within the realm of possibility, sadly enough.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Do you think that Trump will nominate Moore to the next vacancy on the Supreme Court?

I wish I could say such a prospect surprised me.  Honestly, I doubt that, but Trump is the troll in chief, doing it to piss people off is not beyond the pale for him.

[LongRider]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Do you think that Trump will nominate Moore to the next vacancy on the Supreme Court?

If that were to happen, I would hope that Moore would end up 'borked'.   Reagan nominated Robert Bork to the Supreme Court and the fight was on.  Even some R's voted against him.  Could that happen again?  Moore is Bannon's man, and McConnell is no fan of Bannon I think, so who can say.

Wikipedia link about Bork's nomination.

[LongRider]

The Alabama Supreme Court upheld Moore's suspension from the bench, would that not make him ineligible  for SCOTUS?

[IheartIheartTesla]

If Moore is elected to the Senate, he is now deciding national matters. It would no longer be an Alabama issue. I'd like to think this would turn off a lot of people around the country (enough to make a difference) that it would make the GoP think hard about what it wants to do with him.

Yes, yes, I know we elected Trump, but this time there isnt a Clinton on the ballot to offset some of that feeling. 

[Gertrude]

I think the threat to unseat Moore. if elected, is a hollow one. And honestly, I don't think they should. Moore is a huge piece of shit and a contemptible human, but if Alabama voters decide they are ok with him representing them, then their vote should count. I will hate them forever for inflicting him on the Senate and giving him a platform and power, but that's their call, isn't it?