Noble Lothar Frey

Jon is not in the line of succession

192 posts in this topic

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

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You'v finally solved it. Now this topic will never need to be discussed again. Now I can sleep at night knowing this is settled. Food taste better, air seems cleaner, I'v been set free.:bowdown:

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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35 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.

Sorry, I stopped reading after this claim. Neither are credible sources, and the numerous mistakes they have made have been discussed here many times before.

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49 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

I never thought he was in the line of succession because I was never convinced of R+L=J.  Add the fact that he is a bastard.  Where you brought something new to the table is the example of Aemon Targaryen taking the black to "permanently remove himself from the line of succession" because those vows are unbreakable. 

:agree:

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56 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

One more thing that I should comment on.  The last paragraph.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to grant himself an annulment and he doesn't have the authority to legitimize a bastard even if he was still alive when the child was born.  Rhaegar was never a king.  The kingship went directly from Aerys to Viserys and now to Daenerys.  Aerys to Viserys to Daenerys is the true line of succession.

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1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:
  • R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.

There are plenty of hints that R + L = J is true and N+A=J is true. GRRM wants to keep us in confusion.

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.

Ramsay Bolton

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.

Mad King

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 

Until you die.

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.

Stannis fought against Boltons and Freys who broke  guest right and Lannisters who lied to all Westerosi people in the matter of incest.

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

That's why we have Baelor Targaryen (son of Daeron II) and weirwood tree. This is fantasy.

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4 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Nor do Robb, Sansa, Bran or Rickon look like Starks, but they are. The reason for their looks is obvious, because they all take after Cat in that regard.

 

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

You'v finally solved it. Now this topic will never need to be discussed again. Now I can sleep at night knowing this is settled. Food taste better, air seems cleaner, I'v been set free.

You sir are a hero, this place needs some like buttons, cause i wanna give your post some loving.

 

Edited by Livesundersink

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I'll not give show spoilers but both D&D and GRRM openly say that when they first met for a discussion on series GRRM asked them who are Jon's parents, they gave an answer and well, it must have been the correct one since the show is going on for 7 years. Now guess who Jon's parents are in the show as I can't reveal it without breaching rules.

Polygamy is LEGAL for Targaryens(Maegor and his numerous wives) and we even see it is "legal" beyond the Wall too (Ygon old father and the two cousin/brothers with same mother different father). On polygamous women we have also examples before the Andals have arrived; Florys the Fox and the woods witch of Horn Hill so not only first men practiced polygamy but when first men ruled themselves, polygamy wasn't strictly a male right, women could do it too.

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5 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Targaryens have their own DNA testing, it's called dragons. It doesn't matter whether someone digs up a piece of paper confirming an annulment and/or a wedding - if the dragons recognise him as a Targ, there won't be any doubt who he is.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'll not give show spoilers but both D&D and GRRM openly say that when they first met for a discussion on series GRRM asked them who are Jon's parents, they gave an answer and well, it must have been the correct one since the show is going on for 7 years. Now guess who Jon's parents are in the show as I can't reveal it without breaching rules.

GRRM asked who Jon's mother was, but that leaves open the option for who his father is.

And also, the show and the books are, as many people have stated before, not the same anymore. D&D are kind of free to do what they want as they've gone past the books. R+L=J has been a commonly known theory for a long time, far before the show was even a thing and you could say that D&D agreed to just simply take the most popular theory so that his true parentage could be a mystery for the book readers until GRRM himself revealed.

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2 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

GRRM asked who Jon's mother was, but that leaves open the option for who his father is.

And also, the show and the books are, as many people have stated before, not the same anymore. D&D are kind of free to do what they want as they've gone past the books. R+L=J has been a commonly known theory for a long time, far before the show was even a thing and you could say that D&D agreed to just simply take the most popular theory so that his true parentage could be a mystery for the book readers until GRRM himself revealed.

I don't think that Ned was his father so that doesn't leave us with that many candidates. Howland Reed perhaps?

I remember GRRM also talking about how he relayed to actors all the information their characters would now about, so if show changed things maybe Sean Bean would have talked about it? I doubt he would be bothered as he plays dying characters so he won't have to play the same character in the future but still, it is a possibility.

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9 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.

Then what's the point of this thread? You could just say, "Jon's not in the line of succession because he's dead", and be done w/ it.

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9 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.

And there is your terrible flaw. Both of these channels have huge issues, especially OotGH, as has been discussed many times over now. So what is the point of trying to make a lamebrain theory by someone who is not GRRM take precedence over actual book canon?

9 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:
  1.  
  2. He's dead.

 

What is the point of this same thread topic that you repeatedly keep posting? If Jon is dead then you have nothing to worry about. Nothing. So what is the point of this thread?

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8 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Ramsay Bolton

Mad King

Until you die.

Ramsay Bolton is a bastard with a lowborn woman legitimized by King I don't know how is his case related to Jon's.

Still king.

So technically he is no longer same person, so he also loses claim to the throne if he ever had one.

 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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10 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

Those channels are on crack. Every single Targaryen after Aegon and his sisters is descended from incest and polygamy, and there is not a single precedent for them being bastards as a result. Aerys is dead, Viserys is dead, Aegon is dead, so it doesn't really matter how Aerys might or might not have tweaked the succession in his last weeks. The book itself explores the flimsiness of the permanent vows of the various orders in the hands of powerful enough people. What you failed to mention is that the High Septon himself offered to absolve Aemon of breaking his vow if he would become king. Your conclusions are baseless wishful thinking. 

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11 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

R + L = J is not a proven theory.

Sure. It's nowhere close to having been proven.

11 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.

The last I heard, Jacobs' basic premise was that Jon's parents were Brandon and Ashara, and that Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, which of course contradicts the timeline.  

His response was that the timeline is trash and can therefore be rearranged in any way that suits his theories.  

Well, the canonical timeline is certainly incomplete.  But most of what we have is not likely to be overturned by subsequent books, and certainly not rearranged.

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The characters can’t prove Jon’s parentage, if R+L=J is true then it will be for the readers. Also OP’s right, Jon’s a bastard so has no right to the throne. 

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7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Targaryens have their own DNA testing, it's called dragons. It doesn't matter whether someone digs up a piece of paper confirming an annulment and/or a wedding - if the dragons recognise him as a Targ, there won't be any doubt who he is.

Rhaenyra's two oldest sons were mocked as bastards in spite of being dragonriders in tPatQ.

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13 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

All true.  Jon is not in the line of succession. 

12 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

One more thing that I should comment on.  The last paragraph.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to grant himself an annulment and he doesn't have the authority to legitimize a bastard even if he was still alive when the child was born.  Rhaegar was never a king.  The kingship went directly from Aerys to Viserys and now to Daenerys.  Aerys to Viserys to Daenerys is the true line of succession.

Agree.

11 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

There are plenty of hints that R + L = J is true and N+A=J is true. GRRM wants to keep us in confusion.

Ramsay Bolton

Mad King

Until you die.

Stannis fought against Boltons and Freys who broke  guest right and Lannisters who lied to all Westerosi people in the matter of incest.

That's why we have Baelor Targaryen (son of Daeron II) and weirwood tree. This is fantasy.

 

King Aerys was rumored to be mad but he was a legitimate king.  He was the rightful heir to his father, he was crowned, and he had been ruling for 21 years.  Yeah he had every right to decide who will inherit his kingdom.  He chose Viserys and that is that. 

I agree that you cannot hold a dead man to continue to fulfill his oaths because it will be tough for a corpse to do anything besides decay.  But should that corpse come back to life he will certainly be expected to continue to honor his vows.  There is no way out of the Night's Watch except the grave.  Besides, how are you going to prove that you died and came back to life?  People will think you're a wight and for good reason. 

Most of the people never wanted Stannis to rule over them and that bias had an effect on how they received his propaganda.  They didn't care to hear what he was saying.  His slander against the Lannisters never got much traction. 

There was no question of Baelor's identity.  There will be plenty of questions about Jon's if he should ever make a claim.  A talking tree might do more harm than good in terms of convincing people. 

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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