Jon is not in the line of succession

[Ygrain]

30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Renly didn't know Cersei's kids were bastards fathered by Jaime.

Didn't he? Is that stated anywhere?

[Pikachu101]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Renly didn't know Cersei's kids were bastards fathered by Jaime.

I re read AGOT and it seems like he didn’t, which means the whole “marry Margaery to Robert” is stupid and implausible. Cersei is backed by House Lannister and has two sons, like hell Robert could annul his marriage regardless of how much Margaery supposedly resembles Lyanna. You need a basis for an annulment and Robert doesn’t have that because Cersei’s fulfilled her duties as queen; the marriage was consummated, she’s given him two heirs, and is backed by one of the most powerful families in Westeros. Robert couldn’t annul his marriage to Cersei the same way Rhaegar couldn’t annul his marriage to Elia. 

[Tygett Lannister]

23 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Didn't he? Is that stated anywhere?

He didn't he believes it is Stannis's excuse for taking the Throne. Renly crowned himself because he wanted to be king and he had a weak claim.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe Renly was thinking more on the lines of if Cersei was found guilty of a crime she could be set a side for Margaery. I think Renly may have suspected the Lannisters had some involvement in Jon Arryn's death. Or he may very well have suspected the children of not being Robert's.

I think when Stannis up and left KL after Jon Arryn died it tipped Renly off to something. I know the argument can be made that Stannis just left because he was angry at Robert for not making him his Hand but even after Robert gave Renly Storm's End Stannis still stayed in Robert's council and served him dutifully even though he was upset with that decision as well.

It would have been nice to have a Renly or Loras POV in AGOT to know what Renly thought about the Lannisters, Starks and his brothers. 

[Dragonsbone]

6 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

People are so desperate to make Jon legitimate when he’s whole character arc revolves around him accepting his bastard identity and making a name out of himself despite his Snow surname. 

OK, fair point. But why would the author make Jon Rhaegars son (If that is true in the books), if he would remain a bastard? He could have leave him as Ned's Bastard, and it would be everything that you say. He would still become LC, died, got resurected, fight against darkness and would learn to accept his bastard identity and making a name out of himself. But obviously GRRM did not go that way, if Jon is not Ned's son. The story of him accepting his identity is not existent anymore, when the author decided that he has another identity. Let's assume that he is Rhaegars bastard: If his story is going the direction that you are implying (Jon overcomming his identity crisis), then it will result at the end on something that the bastard status no longer matters. That he still may become King, no matter his birth issues. Otherwise this story leads philosophically and literary to nowhere.

On the other hand again, if that is the story that GRRM wants to tell, that the birth circumstances do not matter, what is the point of changing his parents? As I said, Jon could be all that by staying Ned's bastard. Obviously there is more to that. Changing Jon's parents only makes sense, if after changing It, he won't be a bastard anymore. Because if it was a story of him being a bastard and remaining a bastard and proving that a bastard can achieve everything that others can achieve , then GRRM would not change his parents, because by changing it, the author implies that blood and heritage does matter, which contradicts the whole  point that he may presumably try to make. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

How did Renly propose to get rid of Cersei when he intended to marry Margaery to Robert? According to Varys he planned for Robert to "bed her, wed her and make a new queen". So Robert was either going to set Cersei aside, or take another wife. I don't see why Varys would lie about it to Illyrio, and whether or not it's true, the fact that they're discussing it means it's not totally unheard of.

 

3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I re read AGOT and it seems like he didn’t, which means the whole “marry Margaery to Robert” is stupid and implausible. Cersei is backed by House Lannister and has two sons, like hell Robert could annul his marriage regardless of how much Margaery supposedly resembles Lyanna. You need a basis for an annulment and Robert doesn’t have that because Cersei’s fulfilled her duties as queen; the marriage was consummated, she’s given him two heirs, and is backed by one of the most powerful families in Westeros. Robert couldn’t annul his marriage to Cersei the same way Rhaegar couldn’t annul his marriage to Elia. 

I don't think it's implausible that this is what GRRM was going for before he ironed out the details of his world. I'm currently rereading AGOT and there's something that's sticking out like a sore thumb and that's Robert wanting to name Jaime the Warden of the East, passing Sweetrobin over because he is a sickly child. Never mind that the Vale might rebel over this.

While I can swallow that a Kingsguard may be named to that post, Ned goes on to talk about how Jaime is Tywin's heir and will inherit Casterly Rock and the title of Warden of the West when Tywin passes which we know is not true. As a Kingsguard, Jaime cannot marry, cannot father children or inherit land. 

So Cersei being set aside and the logistics behind it may not have been as complex in the first book as they would be like 5 books later, although I do still find it interesting that Lyanna's name is brought up in conjecture with a marriage being set aside. 

Renly had no idea that Cersei has Jaime's children. I think he finds from Stannis's letter while he is at Horn Hill or something.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I think everyone is getting caught up on an annulment when other posters are giving other possible explanations. An annulment is only one possibility (yes I still think it's a possibility as I haven't seen a convincing argument otherwise) but even if you believe an annulment is out of the realm of possibility that still leaves divorce, polygamy, some mutually arranged situation between Rhaegar & Elia, & a king legitimizing Jon if he was indeed born out of wedlock. 

I saw it posted that people just want Jon legitimized so bad they will grasp at anything & from what I have seen of this thread it's the complete opposite. Some people don't want him to be legitimate so bad they disregard any possibility given. 

I find Jon to be a great guy & a great character. I don't want him on the IT nor do I think he will be. I'm not even convinced he is legitimate, nor do I prefer him to be. But to say there is no possible way he is without us knowing the whole story or knowing the details of the process of annulment/divorce etc is nonsense. I think the point we are trying to make is not that Jon is legitimate & will sit the IT but that Jon could be legitimate with any number of outcomes stemming from it.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I find Jon to be a great guy & a great character. I don't want him on the IT nor do I think he will be. I'm not even convinced he is legitimate, nor do I prefer him to be. But to say there is no possible way he is without us knowing the whole story or knowing the details of the process of annulment/divorce etc is nonsense. I think the point we are trying to make is not that Jon is legitimate & will sit the IT but that Jon could be legitimate with any number of outcomes stemming from it.

This. Spot on. I don't want to see Jon on the IT, and I don't think this is something he would want either. I also don't give two fucks about Jon being legitimate or not. But none of that has much to do w/ the actual discussion.

Is it possible that Jon is legitimate and in the line of succession? With what we know so far the answer is yes, it's absolutely possible. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This. Spot on. I don't want to see Jon on the IT, and I don't think this is something he would want either. I also don't give two fucks about Jon being legitimate or not. But none of that has much to do w/ the actual discussion.

Is it possible that Jon is legitimate and in the line of succession? With what we know so far the answer is yes, it's absolutely possible. 

Exactly. Thanks

 

[Pikachu101]

2 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

But why would the author make Jon Rhaegars son (If that is true in the books), if he would remain a bastard?

Because it was prophesied that a descendant of Jaehaerys II will be the PTWP, so it has to be either Jon or Dany and my money is on Jon it just makes more sense. Also Jon being the son of a prince but not legitimate is a twist on the classical Arthurian trope of the one true king, and George is nothing without his twists on traditional fantasy tropes. There's no point making Jon legitimate if he's not going to become king.

 

 

[Dragonsbone]

15 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Because it was prophesied that a descendant of Jaehaerys II will be the PTWP, so it has to be either Jon or Dany and my money is on Jon it just makes more sense. 

 

 

Why would that make more sense? If he just needed someone to fullfill the prophecy, Danny is perfect.

Also: you do the same thing again, again and again. You don't read the whole post where I tried to state the problem of him remaining a bastard. You just pick up one line and argue all over again. What is your solution to the Jon staying  bastard problem?

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

OK, fair point. But why would the author make Jon Rhaegars son (If that is true in the books), if he would remain a bastard? He could have leave him as Ned's Bastard, and it would be everything that you say. He would still become LC, died, got resurected, fight against darkness and would learn to accept his bastard identity and making a name out of himself. But obviously GRRM did not go that way, if Jon is not Ned's son. The story of him accepting his identity is not existent anymore, when the author decided that he has another identity. Let's assume that he is Rhaegars bastard: If his story is going the direction that you are implying (Jon overcomming his identity crisis), then it will result at the end on something that the bastard status no longer matters. That he still may become King, no matter his birth issues. Otherwise this story leads philosophically and literary to nowhere.

On the other hand again, if that is the story that GRRM wants to tell, that the birth circumstances do not matter, what is the point of changing his parents? As I said, Jon could be all that by staying Ned's bastard. Obviously there is more to that. Changing Jon's parents only makes sense, if after changing It, he won't be a bastard anymore. Because if it was a story of him being a bastard and remaining a bastard and proving that a bastard can achieve everything that others can achieve , then GRRM would not change his parents, because by changing it, the author implies that blood and heritage does matter, which contradicts the whole  point that he may presumably try to make. 

THANK YOU! Well said.

All this 'Jon supposedly being Ned's bastard', was needed for him to learn to stand on his own, and earn people's recognition as just Jon, not The Bastard of Winterfell, or someone's son. People will respect him, and follow after him, because of his personality, and his good deeds. So even after it will become known that he is a Targaryen, his followers will remain loyal to him, and won't judge him for all bad things Targaryens did. He needed to rise above his origin, and build a name for himself, not based on who his parents are.

People will accept him as their King, not only because he is a legal successor of Targaryen dynasty, but also because they will respect him for everything he did so far for them. And his legal status will be just an additional bonus.

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I re read AGOT and it seems like he didn’t

I always thought that he did knew, even before Ned. Both him and Jon Arryn were on Small Councill, both were living in Red Keep. And also Renly was Master of laws. It's likely that when Jon was investigating, Renly knew about this. Maybe Jon even shared with him about his suspicions, and asked his opinion, about how should SC proceed, if information about Cersei's kids being Jaime's bastards, will be confirmed. What are they supposed to do in this case, with Robert's and Cersei's marriage. What 7K laws are saying about adultery, and marriage annulments. He could have consulted with Renly. He could have asked his opinion about some hypothetical situation, without actually saying that it's about Cersei and her kids. But after Jon's death, and when Ned was snooping around, Renly realised that it wasn't just a hypothetical situation.

9 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

If you’re right and Rhaegar wanted a son from Lyanna then all the more reason to keep him a bastard who can’t challenge his brother’s claim. Rhaegar was a shortsighted fool but even he would know that Jon Targaryen poses a threat to Aegon because his mother’s a Stark, a bastard son on the other hand can still fulfil the prophecy but at the same time doesn’t have the authority to wage war against his true born brother. 

He didn't cared about legal status of his children, all he cared about is to fullfill the prophecy. So if for taking part in it, Lyanna demanded for Rhaegar to cast aside his wife, and marry with her, he had no other choice aside from complying with her wishes.

If Lyanna said to him - "Marry me, or I will kill myself.", Rhaegar had to marry with her.

9 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Difference between putting up with your husband’s infidelities (she wouldn’t really have a choice) and allowing him to make your kids bastards. 

It's not definite whether annulment made Rhaegar's kids bastards. If only his marital status with Elia was revoked, but children from that marriage remained legitimate, then all of his kids were in succession line.

9 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

That’s a stretch and nothing in the books can prove that. The Dornish are based on Moorish Spain and Palestine; they’re brown, and guess what if you marry a brown woman chances of the kids looking like her are pretty high. Also Aegon was silver haired and purple eyed, is Oberyn? 

Maybe second child was Rhaegar's, but there is a possibility that the daughter was Oberyn's.

Jon Con said about Elia, chapter 61 from Dance:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward."

He said that she wasn't worthy of him, and also this - Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. <- My theory: after wedding ceremony, Rhaegar (and also some of his closest people, including Jon Con, those that brought Elia into his bedroom, and undressed her) saw that she was already pregnant.

Maybe she wasn't worthy, not because of her weak health, but because she wasn't a virgin when she married with him, and she was already pregnant from some other man.

For about a year prior Elia's and Rhaegar's wedding, she and Oberyn were traveling. Maybe that's when they did "it", i.e. the baby.

Also this, from wikia: " When in his teens, Oberyn travelled with his mother, the ruling Princess of Dorne, and his sister, Princess Elia Martell, and met multiple potential marriage candidates for his sister, visiting castles at Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, and Crakehall. Oberyn spent his time mocking Elia's suitors." <- looks like a behaviour or a jealous lover, or someone who wants to keep the girl for himself, not to let her marry with someone else.

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The simple truth is Rhaegar wouldn’t marry Lyanna; she had no one to pressure him into marrying her

She didn't had to have anyone to pressure him. She could do it herself. All she had to do, is to say an ultimatum - Marry me, or else.

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nor would he do something so disastrous it would threaten Aegon’s inheritance.

And why would that be Lyanna's concerns? Why should she think about wellbeing of Elia's children, and not her own future child? Why would she agree to become Rhaegar's mistress, and give birth to his bastard, just for the sake of Elia's children remaining as legitimate? Why would she care about Elia's children, or what Rhaegar wanted? Because if he wanted to f*ck her, he had to agree to her terms.

Also the only thing Rhaegar had to do to assure Aegon's inheritance, is to stay with his wife, and for the rest of his life to remain celibate (because new possible pregnacy was too dangerous for Elia's health), and not to kidnap young maidens and impregnate them.

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Can you find an example of an annulment of a marriage for which no dispensation had been required, the spouses produced living offspring and no previous marriage could be considered an obstacle?

If Elia's first child wasn't Rhaegar's, and she was already visibly pregnant on their wedding night, he could have had witnesses, that could have testified about this - Jon Connington, Dragonstone's maester, etc. Rhaegar could have annulled their marriage, based on his young wife not being a virgin when they married, and also being pregnant from other man. It would be qualified as fraud on Elia's part.

[Pikachu101]

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She didn't had to have anyone to pressure him. She could do it herself. All she had to do, is to say an ultimatum - Marry me, or else.

Lyanna can’t force him to do anything, she’s surrounded by his men in a foreign land with no allies, if Rhaegar won’t marry her then there’s nothing she can do about it. 15 year old girls don’t have the power or authority to make demands from the Crown Prince. 

 

36 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Why would that make more sense? If he just needed someone to fullfill the prophecy, Danny is perfect.

Dany is the fire and Jon is the ice, they’re the two halfs of the song but only one can be TPTWP and that’s Jon. 

37 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

What is your solution to the Jon staying  bastard problem?

Nothing because it’s not a problem unless you think he wants to crown himself king, which he wouldn’t. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Lyanna can’t force him to do anything, she’s surrounded by his men in a foreign land with no allies, if Rhaegar won’t marry her then there’s nothing she can do about it. 15 year old girls don’t have the power or authority to make demands from the Crown Prince. 

You're operating under the assumption Rhaegar kidnapped & raped her. It may have happened that way but their is some evidence to the contrary. Many readers believe she went willingly. As @Megorova said why would she do this just to mother a bastard? Perhaps she was in to the prophecy as Rhaegar & thought it didn't matter if her child was a bastard as long as they filled the prophcey. But if she wasn't she would have quite the bargaining tool: if you want me to help fulfill this prophecy then we will marry. 

 

11 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Dany is the fire and Jon is the ice, they’re the two halfs of the song but only one can be TPTWP and that’s Jon. 

We don't know it's Jon at all. That's your assumption. 

 

12 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Nothing because it’s not a problem unless you think he wants to crown himself king, which he wouldn’t. 

@Dragonsbone explained why it's a problem that had nothing to do with Jon wanting to be King. We all know he doesn't want to be King any more than he wanted to be LC. Doesn't mean he won't be. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I find Jon to be a great guy & a great character. I don't want him on the IT nor do I think he will be.

I also think that he won't be sitting on Iron Throne. Because either he will die while fighting against Others (he will kill their leader and anihilate all wights, but he will also die), or he will live and be crowned, but Iron Throne will burn together with Red Keep and King's Landing.

Mad King was going to burn everything, and he had lots of wildfire made for that. I'm million % sure, that in the end someone will use it, and KL will be destroyed. Either that will be Cersei, or Euron, or good guys will have to do this, if the city will be infested by the walking dead.

52 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

There's no point making Jon legitimate if he's not going to become king.

There could be. For example: shortly prior confrontation against Others (when people of Westeros will already know about the threat), 7K will be left without ruler. Cersei and Tommen will be killed, for example by Sparrows, or by Euron, who will ransack Red Keep, load all stolen goods on his ships, and escape to Essos, leaving city in chaos, and 7K headless. So on one side 7K won't have a King to rule them, and on the other side - someone will have to unite armies of 7K and lead them to war against Others.

They will have to crown someone, to make that person lead 7K's armies. People won't follow not a King. They will follow only someone who will have a power and authority, someone under whose leadership they won't be afraid to face death.

We already have similar precedent in Song - people crowned Robb as The King in The North. Which proves that for people of Westeros it is important for them, that they are following a King, not just some dude.

Jon's origin will become known shortly prior confrontation with Others. So 7K's government will crown Jon as King of 7K, and he will lead their armies.

Most likely he will die during war, or even if he will survive, he won't want to be King in peacefull times. So he will stay on The Wall, as The King in The North, and Lord Commander of Night's Watch. 

I think that Iron Throne is archaic/outdated, so next ruler (after Lannisters-Baratheons) of 7K won't sit on it.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I re read AGOT and it seems like he didn’t, which means the whole “marry Margaery to Robert” is stupid and implausible. Cersei is backed by House Lannister and has two sons, like hell Robert could annul his marriage regardless of how much Margaery supposedly resembles Lyanna. You need a basis for an annulment and Robert doesn’t have that because Cersei’s fulfilled her duties as queen; the marriage was consummated, she’s given him two heirs, and is backed by one of the most powerful families in Westeros. Robert couldn’t annul his marriage to Cersei the same way Rhaegar couldn’t annul his marriage to Elia. 

No, the Tyrells are extremely wealthy, with a very large force, and none of the baggage of Tywin and his brood, so it actually makes a lot of sense, especially if the incest is known. But if it is not known, he might just divorce her or whatever the Westerosi equivalent. As long as he could get the High Septon to sign off on it, he would be good to go. Of course, it would risk the wrath of Tywin, but Robert had the Arryns, Tullys, Starks, and would have the Tyrells, so Tywin would be a fool to try anything.

[Dragonsbone]

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

@Dragonsbone explained why it's a problem that had nothing to do with Jon wanting to be King. We all know he doesn't want to be King any more than he wanted to be LC. Doesn't mean he won't be. 

The Pokemon did not even read what I wrote . Pikachu just ignored everything. 

[Pikachu101]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But if she wasn't she would have quite the bargaining tool: if you want me to help fulfill this prophecy then we will marry.

Promising to marry her and actually going through with it are completely different things, and like I said Lyanna doesn’t have any power or authority to ensure Rhaegar goes through with it. 

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We all know he doesn't want to be King any more than he wanted to be LC. Doesn't mean he won't be. 

There’s a difference between being LC and King, Jon had the support and backing to LC he didn’t have to prove his legitimacy either. To be king on the other hand you need allies, an army, and in Jon’s case proof of parentage. It doesn’t fit George’s writing style to give the crown to Jon after all this time stressing the importance of the Game of Thrones. 

This is all I’m going to say; Jon can’t prove he’s the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar nor would it be in the interest of anyone to accept him as such. If he can somehow prove it great, then he’d be behind his older brother (who could try to do a Richard III on him) so still wouldn’t be crowned king. 

[Pikachu101]

15 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Robert had the Arryns, Tullys, Starks,

What makes you think they would support this? Trying to delegitimise Cersei’s sons is asking for a civil war, Jon and Ned would have advised Robert against it. 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

What makes you think they would support this? Trying to delegitimise Cersei’s sons is asking for a civil war, Jon and Ned would have advised Robert against it. 

We don't know what Jon Arryn and Ned would or wouldn't do. Tywin was never well liked, he sat out the whole war only moving his arse when the rebellion had been won basically. Then there's Tywin's men sacking KL and brutally murdering innocent children. So anything could have happened, really. Mind you, I think it's likely that both would have advised against setting Cersei aside, but perhaps not too vehemently. But the bottom line is Robert. If he saw in Marg a sort of second shot at having 'his Lyanna', nothing and no one would have been able to stop him. And that's exactly what I think Renly was counting on.