Jump to content

Jon is not in the line of succession


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though white newborn babies often have fair/light colored hair, and light blue eyes. Gradually it changes to their real color, after they are 6+ months old.

Darker colors are dominant in genetic coloring.

Real Aegon Martell couldn't be blond, or have a lightly colored hair. His mother had black hair. Thus Young Griff is a fake. Unless GRRM ignored laws of genetics.

This wouldn't prove anything even if GRRM did care about real-world genetics, which I doubt he does.

Putting aside the fact that that genetics in our world is a lot more complicated than a case of the dominant vs the recessive genes, even on a rudimentary level, a dark-haired mother can absolutely give birth to a pale-haired child. Recessive genes by their very nature crop-up randomly in families, hence throwbacks. It's only if two blond-haired parents had a dark-haired child would you really raise an eyebrow and even then it is not impossible, just genetically extremely unlikely.

Not only do we know for certain Elia has Targaryen blood (courtesy of the first Daenerys) but we don't know who her father was. If he had been a Stony Dornish man or from one of the free cities like Volantis or Lys, she could very likely be carrying a recessive gene. The blond-hair could have occurred several generations back and it could still crop up if she's carrying it. The TL;DR is Rhaegar's (shallow) gene pool for hair is "blond blond" while Elia's is "BLACK blond" - so, Aegon got a blond gene from his mother and one from his father, problem solved!

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

BTW, I believe the main point is Jon doesn't need to be legitimate or to have a claim to the IT to be the man of the prophecy. The deeds and what "powers" the gods gave him, count more than the birthright.

I more or less agree with this statement. Given that this story is also so critical of feudalism, Jon being added to the race for the throne because "Oh, he learned who his dad was so he's rightful heir now - let's put him there!" would feel like an odd swing away from what his arc has chiefly been about the Others and trying to end the feud with the wildlings.

While I don't think Jon being unveiled to be trueborn Targaryen would necessarily undermine his achievements, (an argument that is a little silly in my view because he is completely ignorant about his parentage so it makes no difference), it won't add anything to his character as far as Jon himself is concerned. He has never sought power - it simply tends to fall to him because he has a natural charisma and leadership quality. Thus, I think it would mean more for people to want him to lead and command because he's Jon rather than because his Dad was Rhaegar Targaryen, a name which will mean little and less to the people of the North and on the Wall. As others have already pointed out -- it is his Stark heritage that means more to people than the Targaryen. His "Starkness" is the only thing about him that is truly consistent about his genetic make-up! ^_^

For Jon, I think it would be enough to finally learn who he is and where he came from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:
52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Real Aegon Martell couldn't be blond, or have a lightly colored hair. His mother had black hair. Thus Young Griff is a fake. Unless GRRM ignored laws of genetics.

George doesn't care about real word genetics.

Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark realised that Cersei's children are 100% Lannisters, only because of differences between them and other Robert's children, that were all dark-haired like him. Robert became King, partially because of his Targaryen grandmother. There's blood magic in GRRM's books, where Melisandre used blood of Edric Storm, who was Robert's bastard.

There is at least certain level of awareness, concerning genetics in GRRM's works. So he isn't totally ignoring laws of nature (real world). 

For example not only majority of Targaryens have Targ's brand looks, some of them also have hereditary mental disease.

24 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Baelor didn't have to prove he's a Targaryen. Yes not all Targs have silver hair but guess what; when you two men come forward (that's if Jon even does which I doubt) saying they're Rhaegar's son the one with Targ features is a lot more believable than the one who looks 100% Stark.

Joffrey, Tommen and Mircella didn't looked like Robert. Nevertheless, prior Jon Arryn's sudden realisation, no one ever questioned whether they are not Robert's, just because they don't look like him.

Also out of all Starks, Jon looks the most like one, so should people suspect that five others are not Ned's children?

29 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

In asoiaf wiki it says Aegon takes after his father

Is that a direct text from the book? No. Wikia is also fan written, so not all information there is 100% correct. If you're basing something on info from there, better look whether there are references like this -> [ ] to chapter, or other source, from which that info was taken.

Here it is:

"According to semi-canonical sources, Aegon looked like a Targaryen, taking after his father, Rhaegar, while his sister, Rhaenys, took after their Dornish mother, Elia Martell.[3][4][5] The infant Aegon had fair hair.[6] "

[3] - "Do you have any idea what Rhaenys and Aegon looked like? (Hair color, eye color, etc.)

Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen." <- no color given.

[6] - "a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word." <- this is the only information, directly out of book, or from anywhere else, that says something describing little Aegon.

[4] and [5] are referring to pages of Rhaegar and Elia, and there's also only references to this same info from Epilogue.

Also what GRRM said in [3] wasn't what they wrote in Wikia.

George: "Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen."

Wikia: "Aegon looked like a Targaryen, taking after his father, Rhaegar, while his sister, Rhaenys, took after their Dornish mother, Elia Martell."

 

"Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen." <-> Melon looked more like an oval, apple more a circle.

"Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, Aegon more a Targaryen." <-> If compared to both - Martells and Targaryens, Aegon looked more a Targaryen.

Dog looks more like a cat, than a fish. Which doesn't mean that dog is a cat. Or that any of them - dog, cat, fish are each other's relatives.

:)

Do you see where the problem is?

GRRM didn't said that the children looked like their mother/father. What he said is that they looked like Martell and Targaryen. Looking like "more a Targaryen", doesn't equal to being blond/silver/platinum-haired, or looking like Rhaegar. There were dark haired Targaryens. And the fact (out of the book) that the dead boy had fair hair, means NOTHING.

"Fair hair" could mean - lightly colored hair, OR soft/thin/sparse/lightweighted -> not COLOR of his hair.

So we don't actually know what was little Aegon's hair color. Or what he looked like. Only that he looked "more a Targaryen" (more a Targaryen than a Martell, which doesn't mean that he was blond). We know only that the dead boy had a fair hair. But we don't know whether it was color of his hair, or whether he was really Aegon Martell, and not some other boy. If that was some other boy, then we know nothing about looks of real Aegon Martell, except what George said, that he was more a Targaryen (more like a Targaryen than Martell).

Even if in Epilogue, "fair hair" was about hair's color, it still means nothing. For example that boy was blond, but he wasn't real Aegon. So what was hair color of real Aegon? We don't know.  Was he also blond, or he wasn't? Also even if real Aegon did had lightly colored hair, doesn't mean that it was his "final" color -> babies could have lightly colored hair, that later will be changed to darker.

If George is mindful or real world laws of genetics, and if real Aegon Martell had lightly colored hair, then when/if the boy became older, his hair color should have changed to darker. Because darker colors are dominant in genetic coloring. If one of parents (and his predecessors) had dark colored hair, and the other (and his predecessors) had light colored hair, then the baby's hair will eventually become dark colored.

If George is mindful or real world laws of genetics, then he has hinted to readers that Young Griff is an imposter. (Probably Blackfyre, or just some random boy, that looked similar to little Rhaegar, and was handpicked by Varys.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Faera said:

This wouldn't prove anything even if GRRM did care about real-world genetics, which I doubt he does.

Putting aside the fact that that genetics in our world is a lot more complicated than a case of the dominant vs the recessive genes, even on a rudimentary level, a dark-haired mother can absolutely give birth to a pale-haired child. Recessive genes by their very nature crop-up randomly in families, hence throwbacks. It's only if two blond-haired parents had a dark-haired child would you really raise an eyebrow and even then it is not impossible, just genetically extremely unlikely.

Not only do we know for certain Elia has Targaryen blood (courtesy of the first Daenerys) but we don't know who her father was. If he had been a Stony Dornish man or from one of the free cities like Volantis or Lys, she could very likely be carrying a recessive gene. The blond-hair could have occurred several generations back and it could still crop up if she's carrying it. The TL;DR is Rhaegar's (shallow) gene pool for hair is "blond blond" while Elia's is "BLACK blond" - so, Aegon got a blond gene from his mother and one from his father, problem solved!

:agree:

 And even if the problem couldn't be solved w/ a real world genetics, it wouldn't matter b/c Martin will do what he wants, and rightly so. 

7 minutes ago, Faera said:

I more or less agree with this statement. Given that this story is also so critical of feudalism, Jon being added to the race for the throne because "Oh, he learned who his dad was so he's rightful heir now - let's put him there!" would feel like an odd swing away from what his arc has chiefly been about the Others and trying to end the feud with the wildlings.

While I don't think Jon being unveiled to be trueborn Targaryen would necessarily undermine his achievements, (an argument that is a little silly in my view because he is completely ignorant about his parentage so it makes no difference), it won't add anything to his character as far as Jon himself is concerned. He has never sought power - it simply tends to fall to him because he has a natural charisma and leadership quality. Thus, I think it would mean more for people to want him to lead and command because he's Jon rather than because his Dad was Rhaegar Targaryen, a name which will mean little and less to the people of the North and on the Wall. As others have already pointed out -- it is his Stark heritage that means more too people than the Targaryen. His "Starkness" is the only thing about him that is truly consistent about his genetic make-up! ^_^

 

Agree very much. And especially w/ the bolded - including the last bit that I accidentally deleted! 

Jon is a Stark (even if his dad is a Targ), same as he is Arya and Sansa's brother (even if he's their cousin). :D

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

You've already used the example of Baelor Breakspear, who looked Dornish, and his son who looked slightly less Dornish. Yet Baelor's brother Maekar, who was also half-Dornish, had the Targaryen looks and passed them on to some of his children.

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask432

"Dominant and Recessive

Let's say that a child has a mom with brown eyes and dad with blue eyes. Since brown eyes are dominant, the mom can have either one brown (B) and one blue (b) version of an eye color gene or she can have two browns. As geneticists like to say, she can be either Bb or BB.

To make things easier, we will say that she is BB (both genes are the brown version). Since the dad has blue eyes, he has two copies of the recessive blue version. He is bb.

Each parent will pass one copy of their eye color gene to their child. In this case, the mom will always pass B and the dad will always pass b. This means all of their kids will be Bb and have brown eyes. Each child will show the mom's dominant trait.

Now if we flip things around where the father has two brown versions (BB) and the mom has two blue ones (bb), the child will still end up Bb and having brown eyes. It doesn't matter if B came from mom or dad. It only mattered that the child got a B.

I don't want you to think that if one parent shows the dominant trait, all their children will too. They may not. Let me give another eye color example to show you what I mean.

Imagine a mom with one version of the brown and one version of the blue eye color gene. She is Bb and has brown eyes. Dad is bb and has blue eyes.

These are the same eye colors that the parents had in the first example. But the result could turn out very differently.

The kids each have a 50% chance of having mom's brown eyes and a 50% chance of having dad's blue eyes. (This is because mom has a 50% chance of passing her B and a 50% chance of passing her b.) So in this case, the kids can end up with mom's dominant trait or dad's recessive one. Which one is a simple matter of chance.*

And if we take a Bb dad (brown eyes) and a bb mother (blue eyes), there is still a 50% chance for the child to have blue eyes. Again it didn't matter which parent gave which gene version. What was important is that these two gene versions were involved.

This is true for many, many traits besides eye color. But not all of them. Sometimes it matters whether your mom or dad has a dominant trait."

 

We know that Jon looks like his mother, and Rhaenys looked like her mother, all four are dark haired and dark eyed, while Rhaegar had blond/light hair and blue/violet eyes.

Both children looked like their mothers, like Starks and Martells, they inherited eye color of their mothers, they were either BB or Bb. Though nearly all Starks and Martells were dark haired and dark eyed, thus both mothers were BB (both Lyanna's parents and both Elia's parents were dark colored). Rhaegar was Bb or bb. 

BB + Bb = BB (brown) or Bb (brown), or BB + bb = Bb or Bb - both brown.

It is possible for Rhaegar to have a blond and blue-eyed children, though not with Elia or Lyanna. The mother has to be blond, or at least one of her parents or grandparents has to be blond.

Baelor had dark eyes, and his brother Maekar had blue. Their mother was Mariah Martell and father Daeron II Targaryen (both had signature looks of their families).

(Aliandra Martell married with Drazenko Rogare, Valyrian from Lys. Drazenko was uncle of Larra Rogare that married with Viserys II Targaryen. She had silver-gold hair and purple eyes of old Valyria.

Son of Aliandra and Drazenko was Prince of Dorne (or maybe this Prince of Dorne was child of Aliandra and Alyn Velaryon), who kneeled for King Daeron I, and discussed with King Baelor I the peace between Dorne and the Iron Throne, and the marriage of his daughter Mariah to Prince Daeron (II). His son Maron later married with Daenerys Targaryen (sister of Daeron II).

Mariah and Maron were Drazenko's (or Alyn's) grandchildren, thus they were carriers of b genes (blue eyes).)

Baelor was Bb - dark eyes, Maekar had blue - bb. Their father was blue-eyed (like both of his parents), thus he was bb. Mariah was Bb.

Mariah 1B2b + Daeron 3b4b = Baelor 1B3b and Maekar 2b4b.

 

Even though Mariah's and Daeron's children had dark (Baelor) and blue (Maekar) eyes, Rhaegar's children with Elia Martell can't have blue eyes. Because between Maron/Daenerys, and their descendant Elia, passed 5 generations, during which Martells married with other Dornish families. Thus Elia's ancestors lost their b genes.

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

So yes, George is ignoring real world genetics because he can.

In both cases - Mariah's and Elia's children - real world genetics weren't ignored.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Rhaenys looked like Elia yet no one suspected she wasn't Rhaegar's daughter.

I suspected that she was Oberyn's daughter, and that Elia and Oberyn practiced incest, same as Cersei and Jaime.

Quote

So, if someone comes and declares Jon, who so much looks like a Stark is not the son of the honorable lord Eddard but is the son of his sister Lyanna, who also looks Stark and was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar and Ned hid Jon under cover as his bastard, well I think there wouldn't be many that won't believe the story with Eddard's reputation of being honorable and Robert's reputation of enjoying the sight of dead Targaryen babies.

:agree:

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenys was acknowledged as Rhaegar's daughter both by Rhaegar himself and Queen Rhaella (and, in a sense, even by King Aerys II). No child of Rhaegar and Lyanna was ever recognized as such by Rhaegar or another member of House Targaryen.

We don't know that. Maybe Rhaegar asked his father Mad King to legitimise his unborn child with Lyanna Stark, as a payment for Rhaegar leading Targaryen troops into Battle of Trident, to fight against Aerys' enemies.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But when you are publicly raised as the son or grandson of a king the people don't have that choice. They can't say the royal prince isn't the royal prince.

Though they did - to Joffrey.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The honorable Eddard Stark acknowledged Jon Snow as his bastard son. That is a fact. And the honorable Eddard Stark is dead. He cannot take back or correct the lie he told all those years ago and lived the remainder of his life.

People will understand the reason why, the honorable Eddard Stark had to hide from everyone, child of his sister and Targaryen prince.

Robert once said to Ned that if he could, he would have killed all Targaryens, and after that pissed on their graves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Megorova said:

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask432

"Dominant and Recessive

Let's say that a child has a mom with brown eyes and dad with blue eyes. Since brown eyes are dominant, the mom can have either one brown (B) and one blue (b) version of an eye color gene or she can have two browns. As geneticists like to say, she can be either Bb or BB.

To make things easier, we will say that she is BB (both genes are the brown version). Since the dad has blue eyes, he has two copies of the recessive blue version. He is bb.

Each parent will pass one copy of their eye color gene to their child. In this case, the mom will always pass B and the dad will always pass b. This means all of their kids will be Bb and have brown eyes. Each child will show the mom's dominant trait.

Now if we flip things around where the father has two brown versions (BB) and the mom has two blue ones (bb), the child will still end up Bb and having brown eyes. It doesn't matter if B came from mom or dad. It only mattered that the child got a B.

I don't want you to think that if one parent shows the dominant trait, all their children will too. They may not. Let me give another eye color example to show you what I mean.

Imagine a mom with one version of the brown and one version of the blue eye color gene. She is Bb and has brown eyes. Dad is bb and has blue eyes.

These are the same eye colors that the parents had in the first example. But the result could turn out very differently.

The kids each have a 50% chance of having mom's brown eyes and a 50% chance of having dad's blue eyes. (This is because mom has a 50% chance of passing her B and a 50% chance of passing her b.) So in this case, the kids can end up with mom's dominant trait or dad's recessive one. Which one is a simple matter of chance.*

And if we take a Bb dad (brown eyes) and a bb mother (blue eyes), there is still a 50% chance for the child to have blue eyes. Again it didn't matter which parent gave which gene version. What was important is that these two gene versions were involved.

This is true for many, many traits besides eye color. But not all of them. Sometimes it matters whether your mom or dad has a dominant trait."

 

We know that Jon looks like his mother, and Rhaenys looked like her mother, all four are dark haired and dark eyed, while Rhaegar had blond/light hair and blue/violet eyes.

Both children looked like their mothers, like Starks and Martells, they inherited eye color of their mothers, they were either BB or Bb. Though nearly all Starks and Martells were dark haired and dark eyed, thus both mothers were BB (both Lyanna's parents and both Elia's parents were dark colored). Rhaegar was Bb or bb. 

BB + Bb = BB (brown) or Bb (brown), or BB + bb = Bb or Bb - both brown.

It is possible for Rhaegar to have a blond and blue-eyed children, though not with Elia or Lyanna. The mother has to be blond, or at least one of her parents or grandparents has to be blond.

Baelor had dark eyes, and his brother Maekar had blue. Their mother was Mariah Martell and father Daeron II Targaryen (both had signature looks of their families).

(Aliandra Martell married with Drazenko Rogare, Valyrian from Lys. Drazenko was uncle of Larra Rogare that married with Viserys II Targaryen. She had silver-gold hair and purple eyes of old Valyria.

Son of Aliandra and Drazenko was Prince of Dorne (or maybe this Prince of Dorne was child of Aliandra and Alyn Velaryon), who kneeled for King Daeron I, and discussed with King Baelor I the peace between Dorne and the Iron Throne, and the marriage of his daughter Mariah to Prince Daeron (II). His son Maron later married with Daenerys Targaryen (sister of Daeron II).

Mariah and Maron were Drazenko's (or Alyn's) grandchildren, thus they were carriers of b genes (blue eyes).)

Baelor was Bb - dark eyes, Maekar had blue - bb. Their father was blue-eyed (like both of his parents), thus he was bb. Mariah was Bb.

Mariah 1B2b + Daeron 3b4b = Baelor 1B3b and Maekar 2b4b.

 

Even though Mariah's and Daeron's children had dark (Baelor) and blue (Maekar) eyes, Rhaegar's children with Elia Martell can't have blue eyes. Because between Maron/Daenerys, and their descendant Elia, passed 5 generations, during which Martells married with other Dornish families. Thus Elia's ancestors lost their b genes.

In both cases - Mariah's and Elia's children - real world genetics weren't ignored.

George is ignoring real world genetics, when he want's too. With Mariah's and Ella's kids, I don't think George is trying to use real world genetics with them. It's a hint to the reader that not every Targ has the standard Targ look. At least thats what I take from it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

We don't know that. Maybe Rhaegar asked his father Mad King to legitimise his unborn child with Lyanna Stark, as a payment for Rhaegar leading Targaryen troops into Battle of Trident, to fight against Aerys' enemies.

Unborn children can neither be legitimized nor acknowledged. They aren't born as of yet. And the fact that Lyanna stayed at a tower in the middle of nowhere doesn't exactly indicate that Rhaegar had any interest to present her - or any children they might have - to his royal parents or the court.

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though they did - to Joffrey.

To no avail as of yet. Joffrey Baratheon, Myrcella Baratheon, and Tommen Baratheon are the trueborn children of King Robert Baratheon. You can only doubt the parentage of such persons if you already have a lot of power and influence. If you say Prince Charles isn't the trueborn child of Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth II nobody is going to listen to you.

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

People will understand the reason why, the honorable Eddard Stark had to hide from everyone, child of his sister and Targaryen prince.

Robert once said to Ned that if he could, he would have killed all Targaryens, and after that pissed on their graves.

They could believe that. Or not. It is not a given. Howland Reed and Wylla are not exactly people whose words will sound convincing for people who want to believe Eddard Stark. Which very well could include Jon Snow himself, and quite a few Northmen. Rhaegar's son would have a claim to the Iron Throne but only a very weak claim to Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

@Lord Varys perfectly said! 

As for people not believing Aegon I think it will come down to wanting to believe he’s the real deal, Doran seems to be hopeful he’s Elia’s son despite his doubts. 

Doran is skeptical.  He should be.  The default belief is the real Aegon perished with his mother and sister.   Arrianne will not care whether Aegon is real or not, but she will still lie to her father because of her ambition.  She will send a raven to convince Doran that Aegon is real.  Aegon is her ticket to power.  Arrianne is a braver and bolder version of cowardly Sansa.  Both of them want to find a man who can make their dreams come true. 

18 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

That being said I’ve been told this is a thread about if Jon has a claim, not can Jon prove he has a claim. 

Jon doesn't have a legitimate claim.  He's not in the line of succession.  Jon is not a Targaryen. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though nearly all Starks and Martells were dark haired and dark eyed, thus both mothers were BB (both Lyanna's parents and both Elia's parents were dark colored). Rhaegar was Bb or bb. 

That's completely incorrect. All it takes is a single light-haired and light-eyed ancestor somewhere up the Martell and Stark lineage whose recessive genes would be passed down the generations, obscured by the dominant variant. My friend's Spanish husband has reddish brown hair, passed down from some Celtic ancestor, but his parents don't.

And Rhaegar might be Bb in eye colour but not hair, BTW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole genetics debate is getting out of hand, the only reason it was brought it up was to explain why silver haired Aegon (even if he's fake) is a more believable Targaryen than dark haired Jon. So let's just end it with this; George makes this stuff up, you can't try and use science when it's clear he doesn't. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's completely incorrect. All it takes is a single light-haired and light-eyed ancestor somewhere up the Martell and Stark lineage whose recessive genes would be passed down the generations, obscured by the dominant variant. My friend's Spanish husband has reddish brown hair, passed down from some Celtic ancestor, but his parents don't.

And Rhaegar might be Bb in eye colour but not hair, BTW.

Yep. The recessive gene can be there & just not shown. For instance it's very likely for 2 brown eyed parents to have a brown eyed child however it is not impossible for them to have a blue/non brown eyed child. 

Parent 1: Bb

Parent 2: Bb

Child: BB or Bb - both would give the child Brown eyes but if both parents pass on their recessive non brown gene: bb then the child has non brown eyes. 

ETA: I would think Rhaegar would have to be bb in eye color as well. I'm not sure about the passing on of violet eyes but IRL violet is definetely non-brown & would be the recessive gene. So I would say Rhaegar would have to be 'bb' in both eye & hair color

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This all seems somewhat irrelevant to me.  At this point, whomever takes the throne by force will be the ruler, legitimate or not.  I don't think Jon is interested in the Iron Throne but he is interested in Winterfell.  So I am curious about that legitimacy, especially if Stannis makes him a recognized bastard or Great Bastard.  He has the sword for it. :D

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unborn children can neither be legitimized nor acknowledged. They aren't born as of yet. And the fact that Lyanna stayed at a tower in the middle of nowhere doesn't exactly indicate that Rhaegar had any interest to present her - or any children they might have - to his royal parents or the court.

Is it him not wanting to present her seeing as people seem to think that he loves her, or is it because taking her to the Red Keep puts her life in danger? Why would Rhaegar ever want to take Lyanna to King's Landing after Aerys killed her family? And why would she ever want to go there with Aerys still king? I think she would want to stay far away from that situation. 

The talk about genetics is a headache and half. We know that Targaryens marrying outside their bloodline don't necessarily have children that look Valyrian. I think that's the whole reason Rhaenys is even in the story. She's that reminder that she had a Valyrian father, but looked like her non-Valyrian mother. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ETA: I would think Rhaegar would have to be bb in eye color as well. I'm not sure about the passing on of violet eyes but IRL violet is definetely non-brown & would be the recessive gene. So I would say Rhaegar would have to be 'bb' in both eye & hair color

I'd say bb, too, but indigo is quite deep blue, so... a polygenetic trait, apparently :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

This all seems somewhat irrelevant to me.  At this point, whomever takes the throne by force will be the ruler, legitimate or not.  I don't think Jon is interested in the Iron Throne but he is interested in Winterfell.  So I am curious about that legitimacy, especially if Stannis makes him a recognized bastard or Great Bastard.  He has the sword for it. :D

 

I agree. I don't think it will matter one iota who has what claim to the IT. There may not even be an IT when it's all said & done. 

Also Jon doesn't & isn't going to ever identify as a Targ regardless of his parentage, he is Ned's son. 

Robb's will is floating around out there somewhere as well. It may or may not mean anything to whoever the King/Queen may be but it will mean something to the Northern Lords. I think it would be a nice twist of fate to learn Jon has been legitimized as a Stark but is truly a Targ bastard. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I'd say bb, too, but indigo is quite deep blue, so... a polygenetic trait, apparently :D

Yes. Ahh genetics. I don't think GRRM was too worried about RL genetics. Especially when given the right circumstances 2 parents can produce almost any combination of child with or without their specific traits. The big issue with Joffrey, Tommen, & Myrcella is not necessarily that they all look like Lannisters as they are known to have a Lannister mother. The issue is that not only do all of Robert's bastards have black hair but every. single. Baratheon through out recorded history had black hair. That in & of it's self seems almost impossible & leads me to believe George did not concern himself with actual genetics. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, people, George doesn't give shit about genetics, nor does he stick to his own rules. The seed is not that strong, after all. Alyssa Velaryon took Robar Baratheon as a second husband, and their daughter Jocelyn Baratheon married her half-nephew, Prince Aemon, whose only child, Princess Rhaenys, had Valyrian hair and eyes.

If the nonsensical stuff Stannis, Jon, and Ned end up believing about the power of Baratheon black hair then Rhaenys, Laenor and Laena Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, and subsequently all descendants of Alyn Velaryon and Baela down to Monford and Monterys Velaryon, and the bastard Aurane Waters would have to have black Baratheon hair.

Vice versa, if George cared about recessive traits showing up occasionally it is rather odd that there are no Martells, Plumms, Tarths, Penroses, etc. show up with silver-gold hair and purple exes. Only the male line Velaryons still have Valyrian traits, never mind the fact that the last Targaryen-Velaryon marriage took place nearly two hundred years ago.

There are also no Lannisters, Baratheons, Tyrells, etc. resembling any of their female ancestors (Catelyn's children are the only exception). Rohanne Webber is completely invisible in her many grandchildren and great-grandchildren, for instance. As Rhaelle Targaryen or Cassana Estermont in her descendants.

People having the prototypical looks of a family - the Stark, Targaryen, Lannister, Baratheon, etc. looks have a decent chance to impersonate members of those houses, or convince other people that they are members of those houses. There is an obvious and striking family resemblance there. A Lysene whore could easily enough convince most of the people of Westeros that she is a lost Targaryen princess if she wears the proper garments, simply because Valyrian looks are exceedingly rare in Westeros and almost exclusively associated with members of the royal family or descendants of the royal family.

A person looking differently has little to no chance succeeding at that, even if his or her story is true. If some black-haired showed up claiming he was the trueborn older twin-brother of Tyrion Lannister, hid by his lordly father immediately after his birth people would not buy that story.

10 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Doran is skeptical.  He should be.  The default belief is the real Aegon perished with his mother and sister.   Arrianne will not care whether Aegon is real or not, but she will still lie to her father because of her ambition.  She will send a raven to convince Doran that Aegon is real.  Aegon is her ticket to power.  Arrianne is a braver and bolder version of cowardly Sansa.  Both of them want to find a man who can make their dreams come true. 

Doran put Dorne's fate in Arianne's hand. She is going to make the decision whether the Dornish armies are going to support or oppose Aegon. That is why Doran sent Arianne to the Stormlands in the first place.

Arianne will definitely care whether Aegon is her cousin or not. But that question will not be the only issue informing her decision. If Dorne and the Martells want their revenge - and they do want that revenge desperately, even Doran wants it - they have to do something. She could decide to use Aegon as a means to topple the Lannisters, secretly planning to replace him with Dany and Quentyn as soon as they arrive. Once it becomes clear that this is not going to happen - because Dany has married Hizdahr, is dead/disappeared, and because Quentyn has been killed - Aegon will be the only option they have left. And at that point she'll likely marry him to become queen at his side.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Is it him not wanting to present her seeing as people seem to think that he loves her, or is it because taking her to the Red Keep puts her life in danger? Why would Rhaegar ever want to take Lyanna to King's Landing after Aerys killed her family? And why would she ever want to go there with Aerys still king? I think she would want to stay far away from that situation. 

Why would Rhaegar want to help the man who had Lyanna's father and brother cruelly executed? Why is Rhaegar fighting a war against Lyanna's living brother(s)?

Lyanna wouldn't have been in any danger at court if she had been with Rhaegar. After all, Rhaegar was the new supreme commander of the Targaryen army. And if Rhaegar could command three Kingsguard to remain with Lyanna in the middle of nowhere and if he could take the remaining KG (save Jaime) with him to the Trident he could also have taken Lyanna with him to the Trident if he had felt she wasn't save at KL. He could also have dumped her at Maidenpool or Harrenhal where he had close friends in the Mootons and Whents, if he had no intention to endanger her life and the life of the unborn child by dragging her along in the army.

But the point here is that it is ridiculous that Aerys would legitimize or acknowledge or accept or whatever any unborn child of Rhaegar's by Lyanna if he also had issues with Lyanna herself, leading to her staying at the tower. Not to mention the fact that this would be a ridiculous thing to ask or do.

But even if we bought the idea that Aerys or Rhaella or Rhaegar somehow prepared the way for Lyanna's son - which we should not - then there is still no proof that Jon Snow actually is that child that Lyanna Stark birthed in that tower. Howland Reed, Wylla, the Daynes, etc. could tell people what they know and that they saw the birth (Wylla, perhaps), saw the child at the tower with Lyanna and Ned (Howland), saw the child at Starfall and heard the tale of Ned (Daynes). But that doesn't prove that the child Wylla brought to Winterfell is actually Rhaegar's son. There could have been another baby swap. Eddard Stark could actually have had a bastard, etc.

Just because Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child - and people might be willing to buy that story - doesn't mean people also have to believe Jon Snow is that child. Just as the fact that Rhaegar and Elia had a son named Aegon doesn't mean that this son Aegon did survive his own death at KL or that the youth Aegon Jon Connington has brought to Westeros in ADwD is Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

If people can doubt Connington's Aegon story - and some of them will - people sure as hell can and will doubt the Jon Snow Targaryen story. Even if they believe in the story that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child. Especially in the wake of the Aegon story.

I mean, people most certainly will scrub their foreheads and ask themselves whether they are living in a poorly-written fan fiction - they are supposed to believe that they are two hidden Targaryens fathered by the same prince? One a prince they believed to be dead, and another they had no idea ever existed? Why shouldn't the average Kingslander not believe the fair-haired son of the man next door was one of the many unacknowledged bastard sons of Aerys II?

And if Aegon ends up being declared or denounced or revealed to be an impostor then all credibility the Jon Snow story could possibly hope to find among the people will go right down the toilet with Aegon. People are not stupid enough to go for the same narrative - and it is essentially the same narrative - twice. They will stick with Daenerys - who is unquestionably a Targaryen - or some other pretender, but they won't buy the idea that a Stark bastard is a Targaryen prince.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rheagar went back to King's Landing to collect the Royal Army and march to the Trident and had Lord Commander Gerold Hightower stay at the Tower of Joy with Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell.

The Question is: Did Rheagar obtain a Legitimization from his father for his baby pre-birth etc? Was the High Septon there at the time as well and was he involved with any legalities?

Jon was undoubtedly named heir by Robb in the even of his death as he thought Bran and Rickon to be dead when he signed and sent his will North with Glover and Mormont. That is the more likely way for Jon to become a "King" at all.

Also, did Roose Bolton also know about that will before he went to the Twins? If so, he knows that Jon Snow Robb's chosen heir.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Doran is skeptical.  He should be.  The default belief is the real Aegon perished with his mother and sister.   Arrianne will not care whether Aegon is real or not, but she will still lie to her father because of her ambition.  She will send a raven to convince Doran that Aegon is real.  Aegon is her ticket to power.  Arrianne is a braver and bolder version of cowardly Sansa.  Both of them want to find a man who can make their dreams come true. 

Jon doesn't have a legitimate claim.  He's not in the line of succession.  Jon is not a Targaryen. 

 

I wouldn't be so sure. And your reasons for the doubt in Faegon's claim by the Dornish, may be entirely your own, and not George's actual intentions. I think the WOW Arianne passages clearly indicate that both Doran & Arianne are disturbed by him & Connington's claim of being a Targ. I also think Jon realizing that Faegon's eyes is a lighter shade of purple than Rhaegars were at a time of disagreement between the two is also quite telling. It's like it's his first time noticing that and that he himself may express some doubts of his own when WOW comes out in full.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...