Jon is not in the line of succession

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

King Aerys passed the line of succession to Viserys.  It is very logical why he would do this.  To prevent Rhaegar's children from inheriting the throne. 

What @Ygrain said.

Maybe Aerys didn't disinherited Rhaegar's children. And the reason why he declared Viserys as his heir apparent, is because Rhaenys was a girl. And Targaryens didn't saw girls as possible heirs. And little Aegon was too young. If he became King, then his regent would be his mother Elia, and Aerys couldn't let a Dornish to be a de-facto ruler of 7K.

Thus he made Viserys as his heir apparent, because two others, that were in succession line ahead of him, at that time were unfit for it. In case of Aerys death, if his son Viserys became King of 7K, then his regent and de-facto ruler of 7K would be his mother Queen Rhaella. And for Aerys she was much better candidate than Elia. So could be that Aerys' decision at that time, was just a temporary measure. If he survived thru Robert's Rebellion, and remained as King of 7K for many years after, then when Aegon turned 16, Aerys would have made him his heir apparent.

Later they could have gathered Great Council, and chosen little Aegon as 7K's King, and took crown from Viserys. Even though Viserys was chosen by previous King. Same thing happened with Rhaenyra, from my previous example that you quoted. King has chosen her as his successor, but after his death, the Great Council decided otherwise, and gave crown to another. So they also could have taken crown from Viserys, prior his 16th birthday, while Queen Rhaella was still his regent. He's not a 100% ruler/King, as long as he is not 16 yet. And for members of Great Council, basis for taking away crown from Viserys would be that children of Crown Prince Rhaegar, are ahead of Viserys in succession line of Targaryens. Thus they could have given crown to little Aegon, because unlike Aerys, other people of 7K weren't so against Dorne and everything Dornish.

So Rhaegar's children were still in succession line. Including Jon. Even bastards are viable candidates for being crowned by Great Council. If fAegon is a fake, then Jon, as the only surviving child of Rhaegar, is his heir. And marriage with Daenerys Targaryen would have nulified Jon's bastard status. 

[The Commentator]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A quote to back your statement, please. Because as far as I know, Aerys always preferred Viserys, so his motivation may well have been to promote his favourite son, rather than get rid of Rhaegarspawn.  Not to mention that at the time of Aerys' choice, Rhaegar's children were the only "backup", should Viserys die without progeny. Removing them from the succession line entirely doesn't make any sense.

Plus, even the disinheritance thing is not as clearcut as it seems. Did Aerys proclaim "all of Rhaegar's children", or "children by Elia Martell, the traitorous Dornish"? No-one knows, and we don't even know if he produced any proclamation or decree at all because the passage about "his new heir Viserys" may well have been written in retrospect because Viserys became the only heir in no more than a fortnight since the Trident.

I don't agree with R+L=J so the discussion is academic and hypothetical to me.  But I take it you agree with R + L = J.  Okay so since you do, you should realize that Aerys would prevent any child from that couple from inheriting the kingdom.  Aerys was not a fan of the Starks.  He's not about to let a half-dog child become the ruler of the seven kingdoms.  He would absolutely and positively disinherit Rhaegar to prevent this abominable spawn of Lyanna's from taking his crown.

 

[Ygrain]

48 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't agree with R+L=J so the discussion is academic and hypothetical to me.  But I take it you agree with R + L = J.  Okay so since you do, you should realize that Aerys would prevent any child from that couple from inheriting the kingdom.  Aerys was not a fan of the Starks.  He's not about to let a half-dog child become the ruler of the seven kingdoms.  He would absolutely and positively disinherit Rhaegar to prevent this abominable spawn of Lyanna's from taking his crown.

Provided that he knew about the wolfspawn in the first place, and that Rhaegar may have made arrangements to make the said wolfling trueborn. No reason to bother oneself with a presumed bastard.

[Pikachu101]

17 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

R+L=J is not a good theory.  

Do you mean Rhaegar and Lyanna being married, or them being Jon's parents? 

17 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is still a bastard because polygamy is not accepted

Yup, polygamy has only been practised twice: Aegon I was married to Rhaenys before he converted to the Seven and Maegor's justification was that none of his wives were giving him a son but even then he's not exactly the best example to use. 

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

we don't even know if he produced any proclamation or decree at all because the passage about "his new heir Viserys" may well have been written in retrospect because Viserys became the only heir in no more than a fortnight since the Trident.

There's actually no legal evidence Aerys bypassed Rhaegar's children. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Not sure where you get the idea that Aegon married Rhaenys before he "converted" to the Faith.  We do not have any such information as far as I can recall. All we can say is they were married before they invaded Westeros, which tells us nothing of who conducted their marriage ceremonies or whether they had adopted the Faith yet.

[Bael's Bastard]

And we see that many lords and ladies were eager to offer their daughters or themselves to Aegon in addition to the two wives he already had. They sure didn't seem to be so inherently, morally against polygamy or incest that they weren't willing to have their children partake, or partake themselves. It may be different without dragons, but that is irrelevant to whether Rhaegar would have done it, and if he did marry Lyanna, neither he, Elia, nor Lyanna lived to see how the realm would have reacted.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 11/13/2017 at 8:43 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

1. Neither is Daenerys, even if she is the child of Aerys and Rhaella. They had wars to settle this type of issue. She has no claim as a woman to the throne by Westerosi laws. All of which is an arbitrary concept that can be broken by some one strong enough as proven by Aegon and Maegor marrying who they want but other having to bow to the Faith.

2. Why does Jon's arch have to deal with him taking the Throne. Something that might not even be there when all is said and done. Couldn't his role simply have to do with the Battle of Ice and Fire?

Being that Rhaegar already had legit Aegon, why would he even care if Jon was legit? His desire to have Jon has nothing to do with creating a younger brother to contend with his older brother over the throne possibly. Possibly, it has to do with prophecy. Something Rhaegar believed in greatly, whether he's right or not.

[Quoth the raven,]

On 11/13/2017 at 11:43 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

This is right on all points and I concur, Jon is not in the line of succession. 

I will add this for those Jon fans who think Robb made him legit.  Robb the poser had no such legal powers.  Besides, that kind of decree will only hold in the North and only IF the north is INDEPENDENT.  And the north is not independent.  Roose Bolton is the legal Warden and the Boltons are now the high house of the north. 

[Ygrain]

51 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

the Boltons are now the high house of the north.

And when they are overthrown? :-)

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Quoth the raven, said:

This is right on all points and I concur, Jon is not in the line of succession. 

I will add this for those Jon fans who think Robb made him legit.  Robb the poser had no such legal powers.  Besides, that kind of decree will only hold in the North and only IF the north is INDEPENDENT.  And the north is not independent.  Roose Bolton is the legal Warden and the Boltons are now the high house of the north. 

I don't think the northmen will care one bit what anyone thinks. If they did, they wouldn't be plotting against the Boltons and dying to rescue Arya and take Winterfell back, or trying to find Rickon.

I think Robb naming Jon his successor serves a greater purpose than Jon being legitimized or becoming KitN. Jon has embraced his bastardy and this move by Robb will have emotional resonance with Jon. This is how Robb saw him, not just as his father's son, but as his brother, whom he believed would be capable of leading the north. He placed his trust and the faith of the north between Jon's hands. 

[ChuckPunch]

On 11/13/2017 at 10:43 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.

 

I laughed out loud. "Legal"? Are you having a giggle, mate? 

Whoever is the most powerful militarily decides what's legal based on whim and fancy. See- Cersei, Aerys, High Sparrow, Tywin, Roose, Jon Connington, Dany, the list goes on forever.

You think anyone gives a rats arse if something is """"""LEGAL"""""?

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think the northmen will care one bit what anyone thinks. If they did, they wouldn't be plotting against the Boltons and dying to rescue Arya and take Winterfell back, or trying to find Rickon.

Couldn't agree more. 

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think Robb naming Jon his successor serves a greater purpose than Jon being legitimized or becoming KitN. Jon has embraced his bastardy and this move by Robb will have emotional resonance with Jon. This is how Robb saw him, not just as his father's son, but as his brother, whom he believed would be capable of leading the north. He placed his trust and the faith of the north between Jon's hands. 

And the bold, so so much. 

[Makk]

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think the northmen will care one bit what anyone thinks. If they did, they wouldn't be plotting against the Boltons and dying to rescue Arya and take Winterfell back, or trying to find Rickon.

I think Robb naming Jon his successor serves a greater purpose than Jon being legitimized or becoming KitN. Jon has embraced his bastardy and this move by Robb will have emotional resonance with Jon. This is how Robb saw him, not just as his father's son, but as his brother, whom he believed would be capable of leading the north. He placed his trust and the faith of the north between Jon's hands. 

Absolutely. Here are some more quotes from when he is considering whether to accept Stannis's offer that I believe back that up.

Quote

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

 

Quote

 

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

 

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

 

The main reasons he didn't take up Stannis' offer, although he was sorely tempted, was that he doubted he had Robb's approval along with the fear that Melisandre would corrupt or destroy the Stark history. With, not only Robb's approval, but his decree to do so, I don't see Jon will have any choice but to follow his wish. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think the northmen will care one bit what anyone thinks. If they did, they wouldn't be plotting against the Boltons and dying to rescue Arya and take Winterfell back, or trying to find Rickon.

I think Robb naming Jon his successor serves a greater purpose than Jon being legitimized or becoming KitN. Jon has embraced his bastardy and this move by Robb will have emotional resonance with Jon. This is how Robb saw him, not just as his father's son, but as his brother, whom he believed would be capable of leading the north. He placed his trust and the faith of the north between Jon's hands. 

Yes!! I agree with all of it. 

[cpg2016]

7 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

I laughed out loud. "Legal"? Are you having a giggle, mate? 

Whoever is the most powerful militarily decides what's legal based on whim and fancy. See- Cersei, Aerys, High Sparrow, Tywin, Roose, Jon Connington, Dany, the list goes on forever.

You think anyone gives a rats arse if something is """"""LEGAL"""""?

Yeah, people do, including the very people you've quoted.  The High Sparrow won't revive the Swords and Stars without Crown permission.  Cersei acknowledges she can't marry Jaime and admit to the incest without disinheriting her children.  Aerys tries to take extralegal action and is deposed and killed for it.  Roose is very eager to obtain the "legal" title of Warden of the North, and even more eager to marry into the "Starks" to legitimize his claims.

That characters sometimes flout custom or law is not proof that custom and law do not matter.  We see they matter immensely, because those who do are reviled and held accountable for those actions.  Saying that the existence of criminals disproves the existence of laws is just stupid.  The existence of criminals, and the social opprobrium they endure, is proof positive that laws and customs DO matter to the vast majority of real world and Westerosi people.

[Damsel in Distress]

On 11/13/2017 at 11:43 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

Rhaegar can't pull a miracle.  Only Aerys could grant an annulment and it would not make any sense for Aerys to do so.  Jon was born a bastard and Jon remains a bastard. 

 

 

[Darth Sidious]

And if he should get resurrected he comes back as a wight bleeding bastard.  That is, until he's completely drained.  

[ChuckPunch]

On 12/6/2017 at 4:57 PM, cpg2016 said:

Yeah, people do, including the very people you've quoted.  The High Sparrow won't revive the Swords and Stars without Crown permission.  Cersei acknowledges she can't marry Jaime and admit to the incest without disinheriting her children.  Aerys tries to take extralegal action and is deposed and killed for it.  Roose is very eager to obtain the "legal" title of Warden of the North, and even more eager to marry into the "Starks" to legitimize his claims.

That characters sometimes flout custom or law is not proof that custom and law do not matter.  We see they matter immensely, because those who do are reviled and held accountable for those actions.  Saying that the existence of criminals disproves the existence of laws is just stupid.  The existence of criminals, and the social opprobrium they endure, is proof positive that laws and customs DO matter to the vast majority of real world and Westerosi people.

All the counterpoints you list are done before the parties involved seize power. My argument is that once you are in charge you can make up whatever law you want and it is "legal" as long as you say so. Allow me to counter-counter-point

High Sparrow seizes power from the crown when he abducts Cersei and Marge. The Crown and Lords concerned can do nothing while the High Sparrow holds his own trial at his own pace, holding two Queens hostage. He is indeed granted permission for the Swords and Stars, but now that they are in power can anyone effectively remove their legitimacy? Is this "legal"? Certainly this depends on who you ask.

With Cersei I was thinking of her abuse of power in Feast, appointing whoever she wants for positions in her circle. She up-jumps several people and while this isn't strictly "illegal" their powers come from her directly, and her alone. If Cersei were to lose power (in a more permanent fashion) her entourage would dissolve swiftly. 

Aerys is only killed because he had an extensive history of being loony, not because of the legality of his final actions. Robert's uprising was more personal regarding Lyanna and Jon's defiance was personal as well with not wanting to release his wards. Regarding Aerys specifically, there was a buildup of several decades, with his mental state being the key factor. It had nothing to do with "you can't do that, that's illegal!". It was more of "I personally do not like your decisions, and I have the clout to say no!" which if anything proves my point.

Roose wants the legal title, sure, but he breaks guest rite and allows his bastard to illegally claim lands that they had no right to seize. He lies to his liege and performs treason. He marries Ramsay into the Starks to solidify his descendants, but only because Winter is coming and he will need to keep his vassals in check. Thats pragmatic, not law-abiding for its own sake. 

Also, with Roose you must remember he still claims the Rite of First Night, murdering one of his own subjects and raping his wife when they do not obey him. That's in direct opposition to the King's law and the laws of the North. 

TL;DR might makes right

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 11/29/2017 at 6:08 AM, Pikachu101 said:

 

Many thanks. 

[WildlingWitch]

On 11/14/2017 at 3:13 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

 

At this point in the story 'nobody' is in the line of succession.

The North wants to reclaim their independence and name a king but they were overthrown by the Targaryens.

Daenerys considers herself heir to the IT but her family was was overthrown by the Baratheans 

Technecally the Baratheans were overthrown by the Lannesters and Cersei's children will soon be dead.