Jon is not in the line of succession

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I never knew this, though I found some stuff very similar, like Night's Watch and Grey Wardens. It makes perfect sense now, thanks! But this isn't why I posted. Though I can't recall the scene it is Allistair's duty to die because he is the senior Warden, his calling is closer than the hero(ine) of whatever origin story.

Yeah but that's not what he names as the reason of his choice, but that it is his duty as a king. I find this very much something Jon would think, as well.

DA:O had a distinct ASOIAF feel from the very beginning for me, so I named my character Ned :-)

7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Still, I'd like to see Barristan become a power hungry Sith Lord.

I'd gladly pay in gold to see that

But we do see a kindly elderly gentleman become one is SW, after all.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'd gladly pay in gold to see that

But we do see a kindly elderly gentleman become one is SW, after all.

That's all I'm saying. He already did the good guy path, followed orders and even saved a king against all odds. In the end he didn't get the girl and was publicly fired and shamed by a psychotic boy king. In the the incredibly unlikely event that Barristan is the heir to House Blackfyre I want him to become FIRE and consume, not be mud. 

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but that's not what he names as the reason of his choice, but that it is his duty as a king. I find this very much something Jon would think, as well.

DA:O had a distinct ASOIAF feel from the very beginning for me, so I named my character Ned :-)

I'd gladly pay in gold to see that

But we do see a kindly elderly gentleman become one is SW, after all.

 

In that video he only wants to die because he broke the female noble origin warden's heart... But I get your point and I agree this is something Jon would do, except suicidal heroics over breaking someone's heart, I think.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But in order for there to be a mystery, we need clues. “They most probably did do this thing I’ve pulled out of thin air” isn’t a clue. And even if we don’t get any clues, George would have dropped hints that something is going on with Barristan’s past - but he didn’t. That’s why I called it fan fiction - you’re not basing your theory on anything written in the books.

Hints: 

"– the achievements of Barristan as recorded in the White Book by Gerold Hightower and Barristan himself

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney of Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight, Blackshield revealing him to be the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age."

1. 16-year old boy defeated Duncan The Tall.

2. Killed Maelys Blackfyre in single combat (what kind of guy this Maelys was: he killed Daemon's horse with a single punch, and then twisted Daemon's head until he tore it from his shoulders).

3. Saved Aerys in "Mission Impossible".

4. Out of all females living in 7K, and that's 40+ millions, he saved Jayne Swann. And GRRM didn't wrote about that septa just because. Obviously that there was a reason why he mentioned her in that book entry. And it was not some maid, or lady-in-waiting, or a maester, it was a septa. What septa can do, among other things? - to wed a couple.

5. In Tournament at Storm's End he defeated four of the strongest warriors in 7K - Robert, Rhaegar, Oberyn, JonCon. And brother of White Bull. The only one missing to make a full set is Arthur Dayne, and Barri would've got a title of a strongest person in Westeros.

6. At Trident he was wounded by arrow, spear and sword. At Duskendale, he was shot by an arrow in his chest.

7. At Duskendale he not only managed to find Aerys, but also while leading him out, supposedly accidentally met with murderer of his Sworn Brother. Out of 100+ people living in that castle, while he was walking the King out of there, on their way out, he also delivered pay back to that murderer. When he was dismissed from Kingsguards, he killed two guards, even though he didn't had his sword. And he managed to safely escape from KL, then returned there, and borded a ship to Essos. He saved Dany from manticore.

2, 3, 6 & 7 could be clues that Barristan has a gift of foresigning, like some of other Dragons.

1, 2, 5 & 6 could be clues that his strength and endurance are signs of his dragon blood.

And 4 could be a clue that he married with Jeyne Swann. In his childhood Barri served as squire to Manfred Swann. So it's not a coincidence that he saved his daughter/granddaughter from Kingswood Brotherhood. And it couldn't be a coincidence that one person from that Brotherhood that is still alive, is in Night's Watch, close to Jon, and he likes to tell tales about his past adventures. Could be that there was something between Barri and Jayne, and this guy from NW knows about it. And thru him readers will also know.

Barri Blackfyre is just a theory. Though there are clues and hints present in the books, that are giving premise/background for secret Blackfyre revelation that could happen in later books. I'm not saying that Barri is definitely a Blackfyre, I'm just saying that he could be, and that there are clues that hint at this possibility.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

40 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Hints: 

"– the achievements of Barristan as recorded in the White Book by Gerold Hightower and Barristan himself

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney of Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight, Blackshield revealing him to be the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed by King Joffrey I Baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age."

1. 16-year old boy defeated Duncan The Tall.

2. Killed Maelys Blackfyre in single combat (what kind of guy this Maelys was: he killed Daemon's horse with a single punch, and then twisted Daemon's head until he tore it from his shoulders).

3. Saved Aerys in "Mission Impossible".

4. Out of all females living in 7K, and that's 40+ millions, he saved Jayne Swann. And GRRM didn't wrote about that septa just because. Obviously that there was a reason why he mentioned her in that book entry. And it was not some maid, or lady-in-waiting, or a maester, it was a septa. What septa can do, among other things? - to wed a couple.

5. In Tournament at Storm's End he defeated four of the strongest warriors in 7K - Robert, Rhaegar, Oberyn, JonCon. And brother of White Bull. The only one missing to make a full set is Arthur Dayne, and Barri would've got a title of a strongest person in Westeros.

6. At Trident he was wounded by arrow, spear and sword. At Duskendale, he was shot by an arrow in his chest.

7. At Duskendale he not only managed to find Aerys, but also while leading him out, supposedly accidentally met with murderer of his Sworn Brother. Out of 100+ people living in that castle, while he was walking the King out of there, on their way out, he also delivered pay back to that murderer. When he was dismissed from Kingsguards, he killed two guards, even though he didn't had his sword. And he managed to safely escape from KL, then returned there, and borded a ship to Essos. He saved Dany from manticore.

2, 3, 6 & 7 could be clues that Barristan has a gift of foresigning, like some of other Dragons.

1, 2, 5 & 6 could be clues that his strength and endurance are signs of his dragon blood.

And 4 could be a clue that he married with Jeyne Swann. In his childhood Barri served as squire to Manfred Swann. So it's not a coincidence that he saved his daughter/granddaughter from Kingswood Brotherhood. And it couldn't be a coincidence that one person from that Brotherhood that is still alive, is in Night's Watch, close to Jon, and he likes to tell tales about his past adventures. Could be that there was something between Barri and Jayne, and this guy from NW knows about it. And thru him readers will also know.

Barri Blackfyre is just a theory. Though there are clues and hints present in the books, that are giving premise/background for secret Blackfyre revelation that could happen in later books. I'm not saying that Barri is definitely a Blackfyre, I'm just saying that he could be, and that there are clues that hint at this possibility.

Or George is just telling us how much of a badass Barristan is with all of his accomplishments. There are no clues or hints that Barristan Selmy is actually Barristan Blackfyre in the books. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Or George is just telling us how much of a badass Barristan is with all of his accomplishments. There are no clues or hints that Barristan Selmy is actually Barristan Blackfyre in the books. 

Agreed & this thread has been completely derailed with this "Blackfyre" theory. It really should be posted in it's own thread. 

[maudisdottir]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Barri Blackfyre is just a theory. Though there are clues and hints present in the books, that are giving premise/background for secret Blackfyre revelation that could happen in later books. I'm not saying that Barri is definitely a Blackfyre, I'm just saying that he could be, and that there are clues that hint at this possibility.

You've just given a list of Barristan's achievements and some of the characters he's encountered during his long career. I'm talking about hints to a secret past - George should have sown the seeds of any mystery in Barry's POV chapters, with something more concrete than "He was a legendary fighter so he might have had dragon blood" which I guess you could say about every knight who does anything noteworthy.

I'm talking about actual clues, like I mentioned above. Something that would make the reader think there was more to Barry's past than he's letting on. But I'm not seeing it.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

It's debatable if a line of succession still exists after Robert took over.  Renly didn't think such things mattered.  Westeros is no longer a land governed by laws because Robert destroyed the law when he rebelled.  But for our discussion let's say the old law is back in effect.  Jon is indeed not in the line of succession for the reasons brought out by Noble Lothar Frey.  Just one of the items on the list is enough to keep Jon out of the line of succession. 

[Pikachu101]

3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Just one of the items on the list is enough to keep Jon out of the line of succession. 

 

[Damsel in Distress]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:55 AM, Lord Varys said:

Again, people, George doesn't give shit about genetics, nor does he stick to his own rules. The seed is not that strong, after all. Alyssa Velaryon took Robar Baratheon as a second husband, and their daughter Jocelyn Baratheon married her half-nephew, Prince Aemon, whose only child, Princess Rhaenys, had Valyrian hair and eyes.

If the nonsensical stuff Stannis, Jon, and Ned end up believing about the power of Baratheon black hair then Rhaenys, Laenor and Laena Velaryon, Baela and Rhaena Targaryen, and subsequently all descendants of Alyn Velaryon and Baela down to Monford and Monterys Velaryon, and the bastard Aurane Waters would have to have black Baratheon hair.

Vice versa, if George cared about recessive traits showing up occasionally it is rather odd that there are no Martells, Plumms, Tarths, Penroses, etc. show up with silver-gold hair and purple exes. Only the male line Velaryons still have Valyrian traits, never mind the fact that the last Targaryen-Velaryon marriage took place nearly two hundred years ago.

There are also no Lannisters, Baratheons, Tyrells, etc. resembling any of their female ancestors (Catelyn's children are the only exception). Rohanne Webber is completely invisible in her many grandchildren and great-grandchildren, for instance. As Rhaelle Targaryen or Cassana Estermont in her descendants.

People having the prototypical looks of a family - the Stark, Targaryen, Lannister, Baratheon, etc. looks have a decent chance to impersonate members of those houses, or convince other people that they are members of those houses. There is an obvious and striking family resemblance there. A Lysene whore could easily enough convince most of the people of Westeros that she is a lost Targaryen princess if she wears the proper garments, simply because Valyrian looks are exceedingly rare in Westeros and almost exclusively associated with members of the royal family or descendants of the royal family.

A person looking differently has little to no chance succeeding at that, even if his or her story is true. If some black-haired showed up claiming he was the trueborn older twin-brother of Tyrion Lannister, hid by his lordly father immediately after his birth people would not buy that story.

Doran put Dorne's fate in Arianne's hand. She is going to make the decision whether the Dornish armies are going to support or oppose Aegon. That is why Doran sent Arianne to the Stormlands in the first place.

Arianne will definitely care whether Aegon is her cousin or not. But that question will not be the only issue informing her decision. If Dorne and the Martells want their revenge - and they do want that revenge desperately, even Doran wants it - they have to do something. She could decide to use Aegon as a means to topple the Lannisters, secretly planning to replace him with Dany and Quentyn as soon as they arrive. Once it becomes clear that this is not going to happen - because Dany has married Hizdahr, is dead/disappeared, and because Quentyn has been killed - Aegon will be the only option they have left. And at that point she'll likely marry him to become queen at his side.

Why would Rhaegar want to help the man who had Lyanna's father and brother cruelly executed? Why is Rhaegar fighting a war against Lyanna's living brother(s)?

Lyanna wouldn't have been in any danger at court if she had been with Rhaegar. After all, Rhaegar was the new supreme commander of the Targaryen army. And if Rhaegar could command three Kingsguard to remain with Lyanna in the middle of nowhere and if he could take the remaining KG (save Jaime) with him to the Trident he could also have taken Lyanna with him to the Trident if he had felt she wasn't save at KL. He could also have dumped her at Maidenpool or Harrenhal where he had close friends in the Mootons and Whents, if he had no intention to endanger her life and the life of the unborn child by dragging her along in the army.

But the point here is that it is ridiculous that Aerys would legitimize or acknowledge or accept or whatever any unborn child of Rhaegar's by Lyanna if he also had issues with Lyanna herself, leading to her staying at the tower. Not to mention the fact that this would be a ridiculous thing to ask or do.

But even if we bought the idea that Aerys or Rhaella or Rhaegar somehow prepared the way for Lyanna's son - which we should not - then there is still no proof that Jon Snow actually is that child that Lyanna Stark birthed in that tower. Howland Reed, Wylla, the Daynes, etc. could tell people what they know and that they saw the birth (Wylla, perhaps), saw the child at the tower with Lyanna and Ned (Howland), saw the child at Starfall and heard the tale of Ned (Daynes). But that doesn't prove that the child Wylla brought to Winterfell is actually Rhaegar's son. There could have been another baby swap. Eddard Stark could actually have had a bastard, etc.

Just because Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a child - and people might be willing to buy that story - doesn't mean people also have to believe Jon Snow is that child. Just as the fact that Rhaegar and Elia had a son named Aegon doesn't mean that this son Aegon did survive his own death at KL or that the youth Aegon Jon Connington has brought to Westeros in ADwD is Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and Elia.

If people can doubt Connington's Aegon story - and some of them will - people sure as hell can and will doubt the Jon Snow Targaryen story. Even if they believe in the story that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child. Especially in the wake of the Aegon story.

I mean, people most certainly will scrub their foreheads and ask themselves whether they are living in a poorly-written fan fiction - they are supposed to believe that they are two hidden Targaryens fathered by the same prince? One a prince they believed to be dead, and another they had no idea ever existed? Why shouldn't the average Kingslander not believe the fair-haired son of the man next door was one of the many unacknowledged bastard sons of Aerys II?

And if Aegon ends up being declared or denounced or revealed to be an impostor then all credibility the Jon Snow story could possibly hope to find among the people will go right down the toilet with Aegon. People are not stupid enough to go for the same narrative - and it is essentially the same narrative - twice. They will stick with Daenerys - who is unquestionably a Targaryen - or some other pretender, but they won't buy the idea that a Stark bastard is a Targaryen prince.

A dark-haired guy claiming he's a long-lost Lannister heir will be looked at with more skepticism and more suspicion than if that same guy were claiming he's the heir to a hovel.  A dark-haired guy with a very long chin will be looked at with a lot of suspicion if that guy were claiming kinship with the Targaryens.   The guy claiming the hovel will be required to provide some proof.  The guy claiming the keys to the treasury will be required to provide absolute proof. 

[Bowen 747]

On 11/15/2017 at 7:48 AM, Ygrain said:

Nope. Aerys proclaiming Viserys as his heir doesn't automatically mean that Rhaegar's children were disinherited, only that Aerys pushed his preference for Viserys over the normal succession.

 

On the whole, it seems that lots of people are getting really desperate not to see Jon on the IT. I, for one, don't want him sitting the ugly chair, either, but if you want to bust the hidden prince trope, you need, you know, a hidden prince. As in, legitimate.

Ofcourse Rhaegar's line lost their claim.  Aerys made Viserys his heir.  Aerys died later.  Rhaella crowned Viserys on Dragonstone.  Prince Viserys became King Viserys, the third of his name.  Rhaegar's children automatically got disinherited.  Ofcourse the bastard one never had a claim to start with.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Ofcourse Rhaegar's line lost their claim.  Aerys made Viserys his heir.  Aerys died later.  Rhaella crowned Viserys on Dragonstone.  Prince Viserys became King Viserys, the third of his name.  Rhaegar's children automatically got disinherited.  Ofcourse the bastard one never had a claim to start with.

Unbased assumptions, I'm afraid.

[Yaya]

Never be afraid of the truth Ygrain.
But fret not - Jon will become King by marriage

 

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

Never be afraid of the truth Ygrain.

I've never feared any quote. So if you have one showing that the claims of Rhaegar's descendants are forfeit forever, show me.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 11/20/2017 at 1:50 PM, Megorova said:

Viserys I has chosen his daughter Rhaenyra as his successor, but she never became Queen. The crown went to her younger brother Aegon II. Nevertheless after Aegon's death, crown went back to Rhaenyra's son Aegon III.

Rhaenyra - Rhaegar, Aegon II - Viserys III, Aegon III - Jon Snow.

You're incorrect.  The line of succession goes like this.  King Aerys III - King Viserys III - Queen Daenerys I

King Aerys III himself disinherited Rhaegar's line.  That is permanent.  The line of succession passed to Viserys, who became king at the death of his father and was crowned by his mother on Dragonstone.  None of Rhaegar's children have any rightful claim.  They're been cast aside. 

Jon is just a Stark bastard, nothing more. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon is just a Stark bastard, nothing more

Well he would be a Targaryen bastard no? 

[Bowen Marsh]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well he would be a Targaryen bastard no? 

R+L=J is not a good theory.  It's more a desperation on the part of those who like Jon.  But even if it should be true, Jon is still a bastard because polygamy is not accepted.  In other words, Rhaegar and Lyanna could not legally marry.  The thread's OP is correct that Jon is not in the line of succession. 

[maudisdottir]

25 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

That is permanent. 

Could you provide something from the text to back up that claim?

Before he died, King Robert made Ned the regent for Joffrey. Was that also permanent? Because look how well that turned out.

[Bowen Marsh]

The o/p already did a fabulous job of explaining why Jon is not in the line of succession.  It's straightforward. 

King Aerys passed the line of succession to Viserys.  It is very logical why he would do this.  To prevent Rhaegar's children from inheriting the throne. 

A regency is not the same thing.  It is a temporary office.  That is not at all the same as the line of succession. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

King Aerys passed the line of succession to Viserys.  It is very logical why he would do this.  To prevent Rhaegar's children from inheriting the throne. 

A quote to back your statement, please. Because as far as I know, Aerys always preferred Viserys, so his motivation may well have been to promote his favourite son, rather than get rid of Rhaegarspawn.  Not to mention that at the time of Aerys' choice, Rhaegar's children were the only "backup", should Viserys die without progeny. Removing them from the succession line entirely doesn't make any sense.

Plus, even the disinheritance thing is not as clearcut as it seems. Did Aerys proclaim "all of Rhaegar's children", or "children by Elia Martell, the traitorous Dornish"? No-one knows, and we don't even know if he produced any proclamation or decree at all because the passage about "his new heir Viserys" may well have been written in retrospect because Viserys became the only heir in no more than a fortnight since the Trident.