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Jon is not in the line of succession


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56 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

The Pokemon did not even read what I wrote :D. Pikachu just ignored everything. :D

I see that! Seems to happen alot. 

 

54 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Promising to marry her and actually going through with it are completely different things, and like I said Lyanna doesn’t have any power or authority to ensure Rhaegar goes through with it. 

Except he wouldn't get what he was promised until he did marry her lol.

No one said anything about a promise to marry her? She wouldn't say "ok I'll make a baby with you if you promise to marry me afterwards." 

Unless you are proposing he promised he would but then when she went with him raped her, which leaves us back at square one regarding kidnapping/rape vs eloping/in love 

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

There’s a difference between being LC and King, Jon had the support and backing to LC he didn’t have to prove his legitimacy either. To be king on the other hand you need allies, an army, and in Jon’s case proof of parentage. It doesn’t fit George’s writing style to give the crown to Jon after all this time stressing the importance of the Game of Thrones. 

This is all I’m going to say; Jon can’t prove he’s the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar nor would it be in the interest of anyone to accept him as such. If he can somehow prove it great, then he’d be behind his older brother (who could try to do a Richard III on him) so still wouldn’t be crowned king. 

Of course there is a difference but the premise is the same: some times we end up in leadership roles even when we don't want them. 

Also I have repeatedly said I don't think Jon will get the crown, the argument is about whether or not he is in the Targaryen line of succession. 

Jon can't prove he is the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna right now because he doesn't even know he is. In the future there are a bunch of different plausible scenarios in which would provide proof of his birth. 

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50 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

There’s a difference between being LC and King, Jon had the support and backing to LC he didn’t have to prove his legitimacy either. To be king on the other hand you need allies, an army, and in Jon’s case proof of parentage. It doesn’t fit George’s writing style to give the crown to Jon after all this time stressing the importance of the Game of Thrones. 

In George's writing style, worldbuilding components are:

dragons; old prophecies; The Wall, that was build thousands years ago, by a race of magical beings - Children of The Forest; Long Night, White Walkers, wights; The Prince that was promised, magical sword Lightbringer that chases darkness away; over 300 years ago continent of Westeros was conquered by Aegon I, thanks to his dragons, and not to his political skills in the Game of Thrones; 40 years prior beginning of Song's events, Aegon V and many of his people died in a fire at Summerhall, because to be just a good King wasn't enough to effectively rule over 7K, and thus Aegon had to try and hatch a dragon's egg; 15 years prior beginning of Song, Crown Prince of ruling dynasty, kidnapped a girl, who he believed was necessary for fulfilment of an ancient prophecy, about a hero who will defeat darkness, and his will be the Song of Ice and Fire.  

It's obvious that in the world created by George, the most important and defining part of it, is the battle against The Big Bad Evil, and not a political games.

So actually it is fitting to George's writing style, to crown as a King a hero and a saviour. It's not The Lord of The Rings, which doesn't mean that a good guy, who fought for peace, can't be crowned in the end of his story.

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If Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar, and Young Griff is really Aegon Martell, then even though Aegon is older, and thus first in line of succession, there is still a way for Jon to become a legal King.

"With Maekar dead, it was unclear who should be king since two of Aegon's older brothers had died before his father. Daeron left a feeble-witted daughter named Vaella and Aerion an infant son, so a Great Council was called to choose the king. Aegon seemed the logical choice but many lords considered him "half a peasant" due to his youth among the smallfolk. The council approached Aegon's older brother, Maester Aemon, but he refused, stating the crown should be given to Aegon."

Great Council will choose Jon because he is Westerosi, while Aegon is an outlander. People of 7K wouldn't want to be ruled by a foreigner, they would rather choose someone local, who was raised alongside them, following same customs, praying to the same gods, and would understand and fulfill their needs.

For the same reason people won't choose Dany. Because both options - foreign warlord and barbarian queen, are not a good candidates to be rulers.

While Jon is like a Westerosian Cinderella, and people just love success stories like that - from bastard to Lord Commander of Night's Watch and then to King of 7K.

So the only way for Dany to become Queen, is to marry with Jon.

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On 11/13/2017 at 11:43 PM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

  1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.
  2. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.
  3. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.
  4. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
  5. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.
  6. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

 

 

I agree that Jon is not in the line of succession.  I don't even think he's the son of Rhaegar, to tell the truth.  That's a good thing because he's not suited for leadership. 

I would like to post a link to a one of our most popular topics of the past where we have covered some of the same areas.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145493-jon-was-born-a-bastard-and-remains-a-bastard/#comment-7894305

He still has the hurdle of bastardry even if he turned out the son of Rhaegar. 

 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

the argument is about whether or not he is in the Targaryen line of succession. 

Well there's a bunch of scenarios that can decide whether or not he's in line for succession:

  1. Aerys' will gives the crown to Dany because Rhaegar's children were disinherited
  2. Jon can prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were married thus making him Aegon's heir
  3. Jon can't prove his a Targaryen thus takes him off the line of succession
  4. Aegon is proven to be the mummer's dragon (I was so sure until I saw the arguments for why he's the real deal) then Jon is the legal heir 
  5. Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna 
  6. Rhaegar made Lyanna his second wife which makes Jon's legitimacy shaky because Aegon can do a Richard III
  7. Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna but promised to legitimise Jon
  8. Robb's will legitimises him 
  9. Dany chooses him over Aegon because at the end of the day it's down to the chick with the dragons
  10. Jon isn't actually Rhaegar's son and George has been trolling us for the past 20 years
18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

For the same reason people won't choose Dany. Because both options - foreign warlord and barbarian queen, are not a good candidates to be rulers.

Westeros isn't a democracy and Dany has three dragons 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In the future there are a bunch of different plausible scenarios in which would provide proof of his birth. 

Bran's visions come to mind, but that would be more for the benefit of us and Jon not the entirety of Westeros 

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28 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar, and Young Griff is really Aegon Martell, then even though Aegon is older, and thus first in line of succession, there is still a way for Jon to become a legal King.

"With Maekar dead, it was unclear who should be king since two of Aegon's older brothers had died before his father. Daeron left a feeble-witted daughter named Vaella and Aerion an infant son, so a Great Council was called to choose the king. Aegon seemed the logical choice but many lords considered him "half a peasant" due to his youth among the smallfolk. The council approached Aegon's older brother, Maester Aemon, but he refused, stating the crown should be given to Aegon."

Great Council will choose Jon because he is Westerosi, while Aegon is an outlander. People of 7K wouldn't want to be ruled by a foreigner, they would rather choose someone local, who was raised alongside them, following same customs, praying to the same gods, and would understand and fulfill their needs.

For the same reason people won't choose Dany. Because both options - foreign warlord and barbarian queen, are not a good candidates to be rulers.

While Jon is like a Westerosian Cinderella, and people just love success stories like that - from bastard to Lord Commander of Night's Watch and then to King of 7K.

So the only way for Dany to become Queen, is to marry with Jon.

A Great Council is only convened when neither of the contenders are strong enough to enforce their claim.  In other words, if the playing field is level among the candidates.  Notice that the Great Council was called when the Targaryens no longer had any dragons, the first runner was not strong enough to enforce the claim on her own, and the parentage of the contenders (and their legitimacy) were not in question. 

People will easily pick Dany over Jon.  What Jon did at the Wall will come out and it will be a scandal.  Dany will make a better ruler than Jon.  Jon couldn't even manage a few thousand men in the middle of nowhere.  People have suffered too much from the hands of the Starks, Baratheon, Lannisters, and Greyjoys.  They will flock to the Dany, the unquestionable heir to the Targaryen monarchy. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

I don't even think he's the son of Rhaegar, to tell the truth.

And whose son is he?

Even though Planetos is a fictional world, even there female's pregnacy lasts 9 months. After Aerys was killed, Ned went to Dorne, and from there he brought Jon to Winterfell. It's obvious that in time of war, pregnant woman wouldn't be traveling across Westeros. And rebellion lasted longer than 9 months, and it started at least a few months prior Jon was conceived. So it's also obvious that in the beginning of rebellion, Jon's mother was in Dorne, and Ned was (don't remember where exactly) either at The Vale with Jon Arryn, or going to Riverlands for Brandon's wedding with Cat. Brandon was in Riverlands, and Benjen with his father was home at Winterfell. Jon looks like a Stark, so one of his parents was a Stark. Brandon and his father died 12+ months prior Jon's birth. And two out of three Starks, that were alive at the time, when Jon was concieved, were across half of continent away from place, where he was conceived and born. The only Stark that at that time was in Dorne, is Lyanna. Thus she is his mother. And she was supposedly kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. It's questionable whether she was really kidnapped, or went with his willingly, but it's not questionable that the two of them were in Dorne together, prior Rhaegar went back to King's Landing, closer to the end of rebellion, while also leaving three of his Kingsguards to protect/guard Lyanna. So is it likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar to Dorne, and when he was going to KL, she was already pregnant, he left his guards to stay with her, and despite all of this, father of Lyanna's baby is not him, but someone else?

Ashara Dayne can't be Jon's mother. Neither is Wylla. In the beginning of rebellion, both were in Dorne, and Ned was up north. And during rebellion females won't be traveling thru battlefields, whether they are pregnant or not. Especially concidering that Ashara (same as her brother Arthur) was a Targaryen loyalist, and Elia's lady-in-waiting. Which makes it twice dangerous for her to travel thru lands, burning with civil war bitween people that supported Targaryens, and those that wanted all of them dead. And Wylla, may be an unknown to people insignificant person, though she had no money or resources to travel across Westeros, furthermore during war.

Also additional reason why Ashara can't be Jon's mother, is because she was impregnated during Tournament at Harrenhall. She was beautiful, but not stupid. So it's unlikely that she was advertising loss of her virginity. So the only reason how people found out about her disgrace, is because she became pregnant, and was sent back home to Starfall. That was in 281, while Jon was born in 283. Thus he is not that baby. And it's unlikely that Ashara first gave birth to one child, whose father may be, or may not be Ned, and some time after that, she became pregnant again, this time with Ned being the father. First of all, because the possibility of that is utterly absurd, and second - problem with logistics, that I already stated before. Jon's mother was impregnated in 282 in Dorne, and at that time Ned was not there. 

So R+L=J is the only logical possibility.

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55 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

A Great Council is only convened when neither of the contenders are strong enough to enforce their claim.  In other words, if the playing field is level among the candidates.  Notice that the Great Council was called when the Targaryens no longer had any dragons, the first runner was not strong enough to enforce the claim on her own, and the parentage of the contenders (and their legitimacy) were not in question. 

Great councils occur when the succession is not clear, not necessarily when it's a "tie". As to the bold, that's simply wrong. We have the GC of 101, the first one ever iirc, when the Targs still had dragons. 

55 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

People will easily pick Dany over Jon. 

I am am sure many will. Just as I'm sure just as many will pick Jon over Dany. And that's the point. 

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7 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

Westeros will still choose Dany over Jon if it was a democracy. 

A few. Then others will pick Aegon, and then others will pick Jon. At the moment there is only one that is trying to save the realm. The other two are have no clue what is going on and Dany won't be in Westeros during most of TWOW. According to the author she won't leave where she is until the end of the book. People will follow who protects them at this point during any version of the long night. Trivial shit like birthrights will lose meaning.

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6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A few. Then others will pick Aegon, and then others will pick Jon. At the moment there is only one that is trying to save the realm. The other two are have no clue what is going on and Dany won't be in Westeros during TWOW, according to the author. People will follow who protects them at this point during any version of the long night. Trivial shit like birthrights will lose meaning.

Jon's last acts were actually doing more harm than good.  He will be seen as a traitor.  Nobody outside the north will pick Jon to rule over them.  I will even say that very few in the north will support Jon when they find out that the helped marry one of their nobles to a wildling man.  Which is helping give away the lands of a noble family to a wildling.  That will not go over well at all.

 

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14 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Jon's last acts were actually doing more harm than good.  He will be seen as a traitor.  Nobody outside the north will pick Jon to rule over them.  I will even say that very few in the north will support Jon when they find out that the helped marry one of their nobles to a wildling man.  Which is helping give away the lands of a noble family to a wildling.  That will not go over well at all.

 

To the bold, this is assumptive BS by a Jon/Stark "hater", and this tune is getting old and played out. The only people who thought Jon a traitor were the scum like actual traitor Slynt and his cronies who were the ones meddling with southron politics.

I have no idea how much you understand this author or his other works, but Jon made a few mistakes, but this is all right in line with how the author writes his "Jon" characters, and in the end, the legacy lives on. Marrying Alys to a wildling, a strong leader of a large clan, is exactly what the north needs. Unity, not division. They are about to lose a lot of people to the "cold" and the north will need people with experience to help survive it, as well as those near ten thousand to help rebuild and repopulate when it's over. You have to look at the long term of the story.

And you are really fooling yourself if most/all in the north are not going to follow Jon. There are already clans and families that are there figuring out what Jon is all about... and Jon swings his own sword and he will win them all to his side.

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33 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

We will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

You don't have to take my word for it. Read his blog where he goes on about unity and the concept of how ridiculous is the idea that "foreign" people can never integrate, the land is one, etc, etc. And read his other works. They are near exact archetypes to ASOAIF now. Over and over again he shows us "Jon at the wall" and the aftermath.

Adding: and read about what he used as the main concept for the ASOAIF wall and how terrible and prejudice it was.

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52 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Nobody outside the north will pick Jon to rule over them

The North doesn’t want a Targaryen king anyway they want a Stark which is why Littlefinger’s setting up Sansa to marry Harry and the Manderlys want Rickon. Plus Sansa would bring the Vale and also be crowned as their queen, the North and Vale are in no hurry to march South for a king they don’t want especially now that winter has arrived. 

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Well there's a bunch of scenarios that can decide whether or not he's in line for succession:

Agreed. 

 

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Jon isn't actually Rhaegar's son and George has been trolling us for the past 20 years

I wouldn't even be surprised lol 

 

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Westeros isn't a democracy and Dany has three dragons 

Absolutely. In the end it doesn't even matter who has the better claim. It matters who is more powerful. 

 

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Bran's visions come to mind, but that would be more for the benefit of us and Jon not the entirety of Westeros 

Yeah I just mean if George deems it necessary to prove to all of Westeros Jon is the son of R&L there are endless possibilities on how he might do that. 

 

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

To the bold, this is assumptive BS by a Jon/Stark "hater", and this tune is getting old and played out. The only people who thought Jon a traitor were the scum like actual traitor Slynt and his cronies who were the ones meddling with southron politics.

I have no idea how much you understand this author or his other works, but Jon made a few mistakes, but this is all right in line with how the author writes his "Jon" characters, and in the end, the legacy lives on. Marrying Alys to a wildling, a strong leader of a large clan, is exactly what the north needs. Unity, not division. They are about to lose a lot of people to the "cold" and the north will need people with experience to help survive it, as well as those near ten thousand to help rebuild and repopulate when it's over. You have to look at the long term of the story.

And you are really fooling yourself if most/all in the north are not going to follow Jon. There are already clans and families that are there figuring out what Jon is all about... and Jon swings his own sword and he will win them all to his side.

Yes! 

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1.  Aerys was the only one who had the power to turn a bastard born into a legit person.  He didn't do that in the case of Rhaegar's child.  That makes the baby a bastard, whoever that baby might turn out to be.  

2.  The north may not like the Boltons but they are not going to prefer a watch deserter over Roose.  The first chapter of the books established that the north consider any watch deserter a criminal and the crime punishable by death.  

 

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Quote

 

2.  The north may not like the Boltons but they are not going to prefer a watch deserter over Roose.  The first chapter of the books established that the north consider any watch deserter a criminal and the crime punishable by death.  

 

Except for the fact that every northern house (with maybe one minor exception) is plotting to take down the Boltons as I type. Every lord from King's Landing to Winterfell knows that fArya is a fake, and therefore Ramsay's claim doesn't mean shit, he is responsible for his previous wife's death, and he was born out of a broken law of the land that Roose committed.

Also, the first part of the books shows us how misunderstood that wildlings are and how it is greatly exaggerated that they commit so much crime. This is part of the underbelly of the series, history is wrong as it is told. This is why unity will happen and truth will out.

And, how many times does it have to be reposted that the mission of the watch has been lost to time. What they are doing now is not the intended purpose of the Night's Watch.

It wasn't the wildlings that did this to Jared, but the interaction with the Others, to which no one south of the wall really believes exists because of false information spread mainly by "trustworthy" maesters.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."
"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.
"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."
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20 minutes ago, Texas Hold Em said:

1.  Aerys was the only one who had the power to turn a bastard born into a legit person.  He didn't do that in the case of Rhaegar's child.  That makes the baby a bastard, whoever that baby might turn out to be.  

2.  The north may not like the Boltons but they are not going to prefer a watch deserter over Roose.  The first chapter of the books established that the north consider any watch deserter a criminal and the crime punishable by death.  

 

That is complete bollocks and yet outrageously hilarious as well. :lmao:

 

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