Corvo the Crow

Mance the Andal?

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The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey.

This is a description of Mance.

We mostly see grey eyes with first men houses and brown eyes are seen mostly south of MC, noble or not. Few brown eyes we see North of MC we either don't know much of their descent (Jeyne Poole, Gilly daughter of Craster whose father was a crow) or have southron ancestors (Hodor descended from Dunk).

Mance's mother was a wildling and he carries the brown hair we mostly/always see with those of first men descent (Tyrells are an Andal house but have married to Gardeners once) but his father was a men of the NW so he could have been from any ethnic group in Westeros.

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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Brown eyes are dominant. Any "First Man" pairing with anyone else could have produced brown eyes, and thereafter, that color would dominate in the succeeding generations. Mance was probably as much a "Heinz 57" as any non-noble Westerosi would be. And what is this obsession with genetic purity? Every time I see "First Men", my mind automatically maps to "Aryan". Seriously - it's been several thousand years since the Andals arrived. There's been reasonable mixing in that time.

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Are they? We don't know if it's dominant in GRRM's world and there are more than one pair of genes that work on eye color determination in ours so it isn't working mendelian.

Also I don't know about others obsessed with genetic purity but I am not, and this isn't about that. In any case The small folk in the North and especially beyond the wall would be "pure" First Men by your words, having very little Andal in them. Another place where people are "pure" but not as much as beyond MC would be Vale; People there are more "pure" Andals than in other regions. as they also mixed not as much as most regions.

Quote

The fate of the defeated was far crueler. As word of the victory spread across the narrow sea, more and more longships set sail from Andalos, and more and more Andals poured into the Vale and the surrounding mountains. All of them required land—land the Andal lords were pleased to give them. Wherever the First Men sought to resist, they were ground underfoot, reduced to thralls, or driven out. Their own lords, beaten, were powerless to protect them.

Some of the First Men surely survived by joining their own blood with that of the Andals, but many more fled westward to the high valleys and stony passes of the Mountains of the Moon. There the descendants of this once-proud people dwell to this very day, leading short, savage, brutal lives amongst the peaks as bandits and outlaws, preying upon any man fool enough to enter their mountains without a strong escort. Little better than the free folk beyond the Wall, these mountain clans, too, are called wildlings by the civilized.

 

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is a description of Mance.

We mostly see grey eyes with first men houses and brown eyes are seen mostly south of MC, noble or not. Few brown eyes we see North of MC we either don't know much of their descent (Jeyne Poole, Gilly daughter of Craster whose father was a crow) or have southron ancestors (Hodor descended from Dunk).

Mance's mother was a wildling and he carries the brown hair we mostly/always see with those of first men descent (Tyrells are an Andal house but have married to Gardeners once) but his father was a men of the NW so he could have been from any ethnic group in Westeros.

 

What are your thoughts?

Brown hair and eyes are an Andal trait, not first men. 

Exp. House Hoare was said to be Black of hair and black of heart due to their Andal taint. Robin Arryn has brown hair and so do the Tyrells.

Baratheons have brown hair but is it due to their lineage to Garth and Durrandon, or is it cause of Orys Baratheon who was a Targaryen bastard with an unknown house. 

Arryns are the most Andal blood. Though Robin could have it due to his mother. Though his mother is from the River lands, a place heavily fought after by the Andals. So again, could be an Andal feature. 

The only House seemingly of real question is House Stark and those of the North, due to history claiming the Andals had very lil effect north of the neck. Yet.

Blonde hair and blue or light eyes seem to be first men traits.

Exp. House Hightower, House Dayne, House Lannister, and House Tarth. All first men houses south of the neck said to have heavily bred with Andals and yet. Lannisters at least can trace their golden hair to the Age of Heroes and their origins back among the first men. 

More than likely the Andals descend from the neighboring Ghiscari who likely descended from the sibling to the ancestor of the Valyrians. Both races descend from a family of the Empire of the Dawn that had both though. So both are actually found during the Age of Heroes from Garth's children. Purple eyes coming from the 3rd child, the female sister the two brothers fought over. She likely provided children to both brothers that became these different cultures. 

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I would guess the Starks are remnants of the early Andals we hear about in the Age of Heroes. Who had split from the main group of Essos long ago.  I would guess that after the Ancient war, the North is where they mostly ended up. 

Considering the Starks invaded the North during the Age of Heroes, they are likely the ones who brought the brown hair north.

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The Original Nissa Nissa may have been a brunette with purple eyes like Ashara Dayne. Where as one of the brothers likely was a blonde with blue eyes, while the other had black hair and black eyes. This would explain the physical trait spread.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
typo

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My opinion?  Mance's physical description is not important to the story.  It only serves to show that the man is average.  His looks doesn't stand out.  That is the reason why he can disguise himself very well.  Nothing stands out about him.  He's easy to disguise because he doesn't have any unusual features.

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13 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My opinion?  Mance's physical description is not important to the story.  It only serves to show that the man is average.  His looks doesn't stand out.  That is the reason why he can disguise himself very well.  Nothing stands out about him.  He's easy to disguise because he doesn't have any unusual features.

There is really not much to divide normal people from noble people. This is the same mentality Jon has when he sees Jamie in comparison to Robert. Some people just look more plain than others, and what is plain to one is not to another. Some would see Robert in his prime with his dark hair and built hairy body as sexy, some would rather a pretty hairless guy like Jamie. Either or can become fat and ugly. 

Once human kind stopped looking at Nobility in that sense, they really fell out in the public's eye. Especially with modern media exposing them to the truth they other wise likely wouldnt have known shut up in their lil corner of the world.

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25 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My opinion?  Mance's physical description is not important to the story.  It only serves to show that the man is average.  His looks doesn't stand out.

Good observation! And, if geneology is such a big deal, note that, as the offspring of a crow, half his genetics could literally come from anywhere in Westeros.

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is really not much to divide normal people from noble people.

Sure there is! Noble-born would be better nourished, probably taller as a result. They'd be generally well exercised, fitter, as opposed to being broken down by toil. They'd have better teeth, and more of them. Fewer deformities due to injuries, because there would always be a maester at hand to tend them. They would look young longer, too.

Now, were a smallfolk get the upbringing of a noble born, I'd agree with you.

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

Good observation! And, if geneology is such a big deal, note that, as the offspring of a crow, half his genetics could literally come from anywhere in Westeros.

Sure there is! Noble-born would be better nourished, probably taller as a result. They'd be generally well exercised, fitter, as opposed to being broken down by toil. They'd have better teeth, and more of them. Fewer deformities due to injuries, because there would always be a maester at hand to tend them. They would look young longer, too.

Now, were a smallfolk get the upbringing of a noble born, I'd agree with you.

What, like Dunk? Plenty of the soldiers and non noble people are described as perfectly normal looking and not fugly just cause theyre not noble born. Teeth? Not likely on either side really a difference. Neither would have sugar to rot nor tooth brushes and tooth paste to brush. 

Everything you listed has nothing to do with genetics either, so neither really apply to your point but rather my point. Some ones looks isn't just genetics but also how well they care for them selves. Hence my point about Jon's comment about Jamie in comparison to Robert. "This is what a king should look like".  Both are noble. 

Mance isn't described as small, weak, with bad teeth and deformities either, so again.  

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8 minutes ago, zandru said:

sic

Further i hardly think Tormund Giants Bane sounds like a small weak malnourished man, and he's not peasant or noble but a wildling. 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Plenty of the soldiers and non noble people are described as perfectly normal looking and not fugly just cause theyre not noble born. Teeth? Not likely on either side really a difference

Well, I wasn't talking "genetics" at all in distinguishing the physical appearances of nobles v serfs and peasants. I was talking about the effects of nutrition (peasants more likely to be undernourished), environment (medical care v bush witches), and physical training.  You should not equate the Freefolk with the southron peasants. There's a totally different environment, physical and social, north of the Wall than either in the big city or on the lord's lands. Also, men trained for war will likely have better nutrition, etc. And when did I ever mention "ugliness"? Are you saying only the nobility can look good?

When Bran thought Jaime looked more a King than Robert, he wasn't looking at noble pedigree; it was the fact that Jaime was strong and handsome, dressed in his shining armor. Robert was grossly fat, in shapeless robes.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Mance's racial background really has little relevance. He's an average-looking guy.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, I wasn't talking "genetics" at all in distinguishing the physical appearances of nobles v serfs and peasants. I was talking about the effects of nutrition (peasants more likely to be undernourished), environment (medical care v bush witches), and physical training.  You should not equate the Freefolk with the southron peasants. There's a totally different environment, physical and social, north of the Wall than either in the big city or on the lord's lands. Also, men trained for war will likely have better nutrition, etc. And when did I ever mention "ugliness"? Are you saying only the nobility can look good?

When Bran thought Jaime looked more a King than Robert, he wasn't looking at noble pedigree; it was the fact that Jaime was strong and handsome, dressed in his shining armor. Robert was grossly fat, in shapeless robes.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Mance's racial background really has little relevance. He's an average-looking guy.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

 

Jon, not Bran. And yes, simply cause of Jamie's appearance, he thinks he looks more a king. Despite the fact Robert is King. Despite both being Noble. Again, proving my point. 
 
The post title is Mance the Andal, not Mance the peasant. I understood this to be about genetics, not nourishment and self grooming.
 
And North of the Wall is even less food, so how do you figure? Better nutrition? With what farms, green lands or much wild game? 
 
 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

sic

sic

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What are your thoughts?

everyone south of the wall looks like an andal. Jorah from Bear island looks like and andal 

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Then there is Val, who is smoking hot and looks regal, well regal compared to Stannis who has lost a few steps.

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Brown hair and eyes are an Andal trait, not first men. 

Exp. House Hoare was said to be Black of hair and black of heart due to their Andal taint. Robin Arryn has brown hair and so do the Tyrells.

Baratheons have brown hair but is it due to their lineage to Garth and Durrandon, or is it cause of Orys Baratheon who was a Targaryen bastard with an unknown house. 

Arryns are the most Andal blood. Though Robin could have it due to his mother. Though his mother is from the River lands, a place heavily fought after by the Andals. So again, could be an Andal feature. 

The only House seemingly of real question is House Stark and those of the North, due to history claiming the Andals had very lil effect north of the neck. Yet.

Blonde hair and blue or light eyes seem to be first men traits.

Exp. House Hightower, House Dayne, House Lannister, and House Tarth. All first men houses south of the neck said to have heavily bred with Andals and yet. Lannisters at least can trace their golden hair to the Age of Heroes and their origins back among the first men. 

More than likely the Andals descend from the neighboring Ghiscari who likely descended from the sibling to the ancestor of the Valyrians. Both races descend from a family of the Empire of the Dawn that had both though. So both are actually found during the Age of Heroes from Garth's children. Purple eyes coming from the 3rd child, the female sister the two brothers fought over. She likely provided children to both brothers that became these different cultures. 

From what we have seen so far (with familial features preserved) Brown hair is a first men trait, not an adal one. Royces and Starks have Brown hair, Waynwoods, who had a Stark ancestor a few generations back also have brown hair and the long Stark face. Even common folk in the North have Brown hair. This is important because their ancestors wouldn't have the oppurtunity to get themselves some Andal brides so they mixed very little if they did mix at all.

Tyrells, a family of Andal origin also has brown hair but one of their ancestors married a Gardener woman so this may be where they got their brown hairs from.

Baratheon hair is not brown, it is coal black beginning with Orys.

Jon Arryn being blonde is possible to be from all the intermarriage between nobles for some millennias becasuse first men also have blonde hair as can be seen with Val and Lann the Clever.

On Starks again, from the Stark family tree we can see few lords married to people from the South of the Neck and even then the houses they married to are first men ones like Blackwood or Tully. This is the last 300 years or so, after the kingdoms were united. Think how it would have been when all of them were seperate kingdoms, they would only marry with their own vassals.

If Andals have any specific hair color, it is probably black as seen with Hoares; many of their early kings took Andal brides and they have "Andal taint".

Back to Orys, Orys, claimed to be Aegon's bastard brother, is from Dragonstone, being on the Narrow see it would be one of the first places that would fell to the Andal invasion and we see how Andals treated the first men; they killed them, expelled them or enthralled them so the small folk there would be mostly Andal.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Brown hair and eyes are an Andal trait, not first men. 

Exp. House Hoare was said to be Black of hair and black of heart due to their Andal taint.

Actually, it is quite the opposite;in the time of the Invasion, the Andals were described as being tall and fair-haired, while IIRC the First Men were usually dark-haired peolpe,  hence the hypothesis that Lann the Clever was an Andal adventurer.

As of house Hoare, in my oppinion, the "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart" due to the "Andal taint"  is more a wordplay to show how their policies contradicting the Old Way made them hated by the Drowned Men and the other Ironborn chauvinists rather  than a literal statement. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Robin Arryn has brown hair and so do the Tyrells.

Arryns are the most Andal blood. Though Robin could have it due to his mother. Though his mother is from the River lands, a place heavily fought after by the Andals. So again, could be an Andal feature. 

To be honest, brown hair and eyes are probaly among the most common, both in nobility and common folk, so a family consistently of brunets like the Tyrells or a man of common birth like Mance is not really something noteworthy.

What is noteworthy, though, is the hair colour of Robert Arryn. In the real world, the son of a blonde father and an auburn-haired mother having dark hair isn't that uncommon and might well come from a dark-haired grandparent, like Minisa Whent. However, westerosi genetics don't work like this and when such "anomalies" appear, usually they are ment to indicate something else . 

Edited by Lemon of Lemonwood Rises

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

From what we have seen so far (with familial features preserved) Brown hair is a first men trait, not an adal one. Royces and Starks have Brown hair, Waynwoods, who had a Stark ancestor a few generations back also have brown hair and the long Stark face. Even common folk in the North have Brown hair. This is important because their ancestors wouldn't have the oppurtunity to get themselves some Andal brides so they mixed very little if they did mix at all.

Tyrells, a family of Andal origin also has brown hair but one of their ancestors married a Gardener woman so this may be where they got their brown hairs from.

Baratheon hair is not brown, it is coal black beginning with Orys.

Jon Arryn being blonde is possible to be from all the intermarriage between nobles for some millennias becasuse first men also have blonde hair as can be seen with Val and Lann the Clever.

On Starks again, from the Stark family tree we can see few lords married to people from the South of the Neck and even then the houses they married to are first men ones like Blackwood or Tully. This is the last 300 years or so, after the kingdoms were united. Think how it would have been when all of them were seperate kingdoms, they would only marry with their own vassals.

If Andals have any specific hair color, it is probably black as seen with Hoares; many of their early kings took Andal brides and they have "Andal taint".

Back to Orys, Orys, claimed to be Aegon's bastard brother, is from Dragonstone, being on the Narrow see it would be one of the first places that would fell to the Andal invasion and we see how Andals treated the first men; they killed them, expelled them or enthralled them so the small folk there would be mostly Andal.

 

Keep in mind this telling of history is coming from the Andals. These same historians deny Valyrian or prevalyrian existence in Westeros then turn around and hint at it a page later. 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

And besides the legendary kings and the hundreds of kingdoms from which the Seven Kingdoms were born, stories of such as Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and other heroes have become fodder for septons and singers alike. Did such heroes once exist? It may be so. But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted. The septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others, and the singers changed them—sometimes beyond all recognition—for the sake of a warm place in some lord's hall. In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did). The legion of boys and youths made ignorant of the past history of Westeros by these foolish tales cannot be numbered.

 

then we're told else where in the same book.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

 

 

and then

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that had established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

 

 

 

Keep in mind that the ones telling the history are the ones covering it up. Notice he keeps dismissing it but there is evidence brought up that the Gardener Kings were dragon lords tied to the founding of Valyria and House Lannister and that Serwyn was a Kingsguard Knight to him. Im not gonna quote every thing but Serwyn saves Daeryssa from a Giant and fights a dragon with a magic sword. Only people tied to Valyria have names spelled this way Exp, Aegon, Aemon, Daemon, Daenerys, Baelish, Baelor, Rhaegar, ext.

If you look, Serwyn is constantly paired with Aemon the Dragon Knight. A Targaryen Kingsguard Knight and younger brother to the king who both loved their sister Naerys. Serwyn was likely the younger brother to one of those Gardener Kings and they both probably loved Daeryssa.

Then we're told this about House Stark

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

The list is long, and many are the legends, for there is scarce a noble house in all the Reach that does not boast of descent from one of Garth Greenhand's countless children. Even the heroes of other lands and kingdoms are sometimes numbered amongst the offspring of the Greenhand. Brandon the Builder was descended from Garth by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, these tales would have us believe, whilst Lann the Clever was a bastard born to Florys the Fox in some tales or Rowan Gold-Tree in others. However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.


 

and then

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).


 

Since House Gardener descends from Garth the Green, and so do House Stark by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, should have blonde hair. Just like House Lannister. Speaking of House Lannister and Lions.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

 

This quite an seemingly out of place thing to find at Winterfell else wise (all the quotes i provided above) and yet, if they descend from Garth the Green, then they should be there since they all descend from the Lion of Night.

Quote

 

Pakhangba:

Pakhangba is a mythical hybrid dragon of Manipur which originated in an ancient deity of the Meitei people preceding Hinduism in the region. It was the traditional heraldic emblem of the Princely state of Manipur.[25] A Pakhangba is a dragon with deer antlers. It usually has the body of a snake, but in some sculptures at the Kangla Palace in Imphal, it is represented with a short body and four sturdy legs, looking more like a lion.[26]

The Pakhangba is the supreme God. He is a man who can change his body to any form, like animals, and others as he is a powerful God. In certain sculptures, known as Kangla-Sa, at the citadel of the Kangla Palace in Imphal, there is a related type of creature represented with a short body. The sculptures are large and were built of brick, standing at each side of the northern gate. They have a similar head and four sturdy legs, but their body is shorter and bears more of a resemblance to a lion.

 

Doesnt' sound like Garth?

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

 Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.)Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. 

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. 

 

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VI

Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? 

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Davos II

Captain Khorane had told him of the end of Stannis's hopes, on the night the river burned. The Lannisters had taken him from the flank, and his fickle bannermen had abandoned him by the hundreds in the hour of his greatest need. "King Renly's shade was seen as well," the captain said, "slaying right and left as he led the lion lord's van. It's said his green armor took a ghostly glow from the wildfire, and his antlers ran with golden flames."

 

 
Who was the fiery antlered dragon god shaped like a lion that could skinchange any animal. 

Garth being likely from the Empire of the Dawn who again, descend from the Lion of the Night. The Bloodstone Emperor also took a tiger woman to wife. 

Lions-Tigers-Cat's eye-Children of the Forest.

The Grey King and Durran God's Grief we're the sons of Garth the Green and warred over their sister the Amethyst Empress for her crown.

Aemon vs Aegon IV for Naerys, Daemon vs Daeron for Daenerys, Visenya vs Rhaeny for Aegon, Bloodraven vs Bittersteel for Shiera, Stannis vs Renly for the Throne, and probably Jon vs Aegon for Daenerys. 

Again, the Amethyst Empress likely had the Black hair and violet eyes as shown by Ashara Dayne. Hence her importance and why Daenerys is the Dayne Heiress.

Who was sacrificed to end the War, yet returned undead after the war to turn the Nights King (one of the brothers), till brought down by their son. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lemon of Lemonwood Rises said:

Actually, it is quite the opposite;in the time of the Invasion, the Andals were described as being tall and fair-haired, while IIRC the First Men were usually dark-haired peolpe,  hence the hypothesis that Lann the Clever was an Andal adventurer.

As of house Hoare, in my oppinion, the "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart" due to the "Andal taint"  is more a wordplay to show how their policies contradicting the Old Way made them hated by the Drowned Men and the other Ironborn chauvinists rather  than a literal statement. 

To be honest, brown hair and eyes are probaly among the most common, both in nobility and common folk, so a family consistently of brunets like the Tyrells or a man of common birth like Mance is not really something noteworthy.

What is noteworthy, though, is the hair colour of Robert Arryn. In the real world, the son of a blonde father and an auburn-haired mother having dark hair isn't that uncommon and might well come from a dark-haired grandparent, like Minisa Whent. However, westerosi genetics don't work like this and when such "anomalies" appear, usually they are ment to indicate something else . 

See above :) I dont believe the Maesters narrative they want us to believe. 

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