Corvo the Crow

Mance the Andal?

31 posts in this topic

The Starks and their grey eyes likely come from the Grey King. Remember, Theon Stark sailed to Essos and wagged war on the Andals that were in the Axe. Kinda hard to do with out ships. They were a sea faring peoples up till Brandon the Burner. 

Them saying they're not of Andal decent would be like the early Americans and the Aussies settlers of the late 1700s denying relation to each other or to Albion. 

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Back to Orys, Orys, claimed to be Aegon's bastard brother, is from Dragonstone, being on the Narrow see it would be one of the first places that would fell to the Andal invasion and we see how Andals treated the first men; they killed them, expelled them or enthralled them so the small folk there would be mostly Andal.

I don't have my WoIaF copy around to provide the exact quote, but I do recall it been written that the Andals, while being a conquering people, were still far outnumbered by the First Men. Also, with the exception of the Vale, in the other kingdoms some fighting might have occured at first, but generally they all tended to end uo intermarrying and co-existing. I doubt they did kill the majority of the pre-existing population.

So, I believe that the nobility and general population of the Stormlands, Westerlands, Reach and the Riverlands (maybe to slightly lesser extent)  have still a pretty big amount of First Men blood in them. The reason why they don't identify as First Men anymore has probably more to do with the Andal ruling elite imposing the Faith and their customs to their subjects.

Think the Normans and Saxons  in England or the Romeo-Byzantines and the Greeks as a real-world example.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This quite an seemingly out of place thing to find at Winterfell else wise (all the quotes i provided above) and yet, if they descend from Garth the Green, then they should be there since they all descend from the Lion of Night.

Again, this is a not a literal observation, the gargoyles are not lion-shaped and whispering, this is Bran subconciously remembering in his nightmare  that he caught Jaime and Cersei, the two "lions", whispering and doing the horizontal tango, a memory repressed when he is awake.

Edited by Lemon of Lemonwood Rises

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6 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood Rises said:

I don't have my WoIaF copy around to provide the exact quote, but I do recall it been written that the Andals, while being a conquering people, were still far outnumbered by the First Men. Also, with the exception of the Vale, in the other kingdoms some fighting might have occured at first, but generally they all tended to end uo intermarrying and co-existing. I doubt they did kill the majority of the pre-existing population.

So, I believe that the nobility and general population of the Stormlands, Westerlands, Reach and the Riverlands (maybe to slightly lesser extent)  have still a pretty big amount of First Men blood in them. The reason why they don't identify as First Men anymore has probably more to do with the Andal ruling elite imposing the Faith and their customs to their subjects.

Think the Normans and Saxons  in England or the Romeo-Byzantines and the Greeks as a real-world example.

Again, this is a not a literal observation, the gargoyles are not lion-shaped and whispering, this is Bran subconciously remembering in his nightmare  that he caught Jaime and Cersei, the two "lions", whispering and doing the horizontal tango, a memory repressed when he is awake.

It's the only time the worn Gargoyles are referred to as Lions yes, but its not the only time the gargoyles are mentioned. Gargoyles only found else where at Dragonstone. Which still hints at what im saying, the first men were the Valyrians.

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I don't understand how you all think some noble family has the same features for 8000 years. They marry other noble families it is not possible unless they marry brothers and sister but than you get Habsbourg Jaw.

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13 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood Rises said:

So, I believe that the nobility and general population of the Stormlands, Westerlands, Reach and the Riverlands (maybe to slightly lesser extent)  have still a pretty big amount of First Men blood in them. The reason why they don't identify as First Men anymore has probably more to do with the Andal ruling elite imposing the Faith and their customs to their subjects.

Think the Normans and Saxons  in England or the Romeo-Byzantines and the Greeks as a real-world example.

Again, this is a not a literal observation, the gargoyles are not lion-shaped and whispering, this is Bran subconciously remembering in his nightmare  that he caught Jaime and Cersei, the two "lions", whispering and doing the horizontal tango, a memory repressed when he is awake.

According to aWoIaF, Andals didn't really conquer anyone apart from the Vale and shortly Riverlands. They defeated Durrandons but failed to capture Storm's End so they've agreed to settle in Stromlands with Durrandon's being their kings. They didn't really fight the Gardeners, Gardeners knowing the danger invited Andals to live in their lands themselves, took over their religion, intermarried with Andals but remained as the Kings of the Reach. There was no King of the Dorne back then, Andals just created their Houses there where it was mostly empty (largely in the desert). Andals were actually being beaten by Lannisters over and over again until Lannisters decided not to fight them until they lose but integrate them. They gave lands to the Andals how Gardeners did but instead of taking their religion and intermarrying, they've took sons of Andal leaders as wards and hostages who grew up into the most loyal and staunchest Lannister supporters. 

So in the South in half of the regions the nobility and ruling elite remained First Men with Andals being their subjects. I suppose the change of religion and customs to the Andal ones happened in Stormlands and the Reach due to compromises First Men elite had to make to stay in power, while in Westerlands and the Dorne it happened due to influences of their Andalified neighbours.

 

Edited by Dofs

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5 hours ago, Dofs said:

According to aWoIaF, Andals didn't really conquer anyone apart from the Vale and shortly Riverlands. They defeated Durrandons but failed to capture Storm's End so they've agreed to settle in Stromlands with Durrandon's being their kings. They didn't really fight the Gardeners, Gardeners knowing the danger invited Andals to live in their lands themselves, took over their religion, intermarried with Andals but remained as the Kings of the Reach. There was no King of the Dorne back then, Andals just created their Houses there where it was mostly empty (largely in the desert). Andals were actually being beaten by Lannisters over and over again until Lannisters decided not to fight them until they lose but integrate them. They gave lands to the Andals how Gardeners did but instead of taking their religion and intermarrying, they've took sons of Andal leaders as wards and hostages who grew up into the most loyal and staunchest Lannister supporters. 

So in the South in half of the regions the nobility and ruling elite remained First Men with Andals being their subjects. I suppose the change of religion and customs to the Andal ones happened in Stormlands and the Reach due to compromises First Men elite had to make to stay in power, while in Westerlands and the Dorne it happened due to influences of their Andalified neighbours.

 

You are right about the nobility, for them it is not Andal superiors (again, with the exception of the Riverlands) but dangerous Andal neighbours and Andalified kings.
I was thinking more of the smallfolk whan I wrote this, if your lord is or has to become Andal, nevermind how many Andals actually are in the general population, you will have to emulate the culture and religion of the ruling class or be regarded as lesser citizen (or should I say even lesser, the smallfolk are already the lowest of the low for the nobles and merchant/artisan/middle class fares only slightly better) at best, or possibly harbouring revolution at worst.

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It's the only time the worn Gargoyles are referred to as Lions yes, but its not the only time the gargoyles are mentioned. Gargoyles only found else where at Dragonstone. Which still hints at what im saying, the first men were the Valyrians.

Just because we have no other mentions of gargoyles in the text it doesn't mean they exist nowhere else in Westeros. We have not seen all castles in gread detail, so who knows, maybe there are other castles using them as waterdrains and symbolically apotropaic statues, as it often happened in many real world castles and cathedrals.

Afterall,in the text, we have Cersei and Sandor Clegane calling Tyrion  a gargoyle, while he either likens himself to one (motionless as a gargoyle), or thinks of Penny as one.

Yes, I know what you will say, those three people  have all been both at Winterfell and Dragonstone, so they would have seen the gargoyles and know them from there. Tyrion does have an eye for sighseeing, but tell me, does Cersei, let alone Sandor, seem like the type that would go around touring castles to appreciate their architectural features? I think not.

So, when these two want to make a derogatory simile, isn't it weird that they would have ready in their tongue as an insult an architectural element they have glimpsed sometime ago in a castle they weren't particlarly glad to be in?

However, if they have been seeing these gargoyles constantly and in many castles, like in the drains of Casterly Rock for example, wouldn't it make much more sense to use them instead of another word, like the usual "monster", "imp" etc?

Edited by Lemon of Lemonwood Rises

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10 hours ago, Lemon of Lemonwood Rises said:

 

Just because we have no other mentions of gargoyles in the text it doesn't mean they exist nowhere else in Westeros. We have not seen all castles in gread detail, so who knows, maybe there are other castles using them as waterdrains and symbolically apotropaic statues, as it often happened in many real world castles and cathedrals.

Afterall,in the text, we have Cersei and Sandor Clegane calling Tyrion  a gargoyle, while he either likens himself to one (motionless as a gargoyle), or thinks of Penny as one.

Yes, I know what you will say, those three people  have all been both at Winterfell and Dragonstone, so they would have seen the gargoyles and know them from there. Tyrion does have an eye for sighseeing, but tell me, does Cersei, let alone Sandor, seem like the type that would go around touring castles to appreciate their architectural features? I think not.

So, when these two want to make a derogatory simile, isn't it weird that they would have ready in their tongue as an insult an architectural element they have glimpsed sometime ago in a castle they weren't particlarly glad to be in?

However, if they have been seeing these gargoyles constantly and in many castles, like in the drains of Casterly Rock for example, wouldn't it make much more sense to use them instead of another word, like the usual "monster", "imp" etc?

Well you could indeed hypothetically argue anything not out right stated in the text. Your way or mine. Though, ive never seen a gargoyle in person and im still aware of what one is since i was a kid. Usually having heard of them is some context as a monster.

That being said, one other house hold is said to have Gargoyles. Though i would argue that it just furthers my point. House Manderly have merlings and such. Being that they also likely descend from Garth the Green and are the only known members of the Order of the Green Hand, they too likely have ties to the Proto-Valyrians that the Valyrians came from too. Starting in Westeros. 

Edit-White Harbor was supposed to be a mirror of the castle they lost in the south.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well you could indeed hypothetically argue anything not out right stated in the text. Your way or mine. Though, ive never seen a gargoyle in person and im still aware of what one is since i was a kid. Usually having heard of them is some context as a monster.

You and I both have two great cartoons and the internet to thank for that knowledge ^_^.
Westeros has neither, bit let's say all three might know what a gargoyle is by hearing about them in a fairytale, like the grumpkins and snarks.

My point remains the same though; if the gargoyles are so popular in stories, why are they present in just two buildings then? Only the Starks and old dragonlords deem them worthy decoration material?

(Also, after a brief research, the word gargoyle does not include pne specific type of monster, but refers to the actual carved  water drains used to protect walls from rain water eroding them by dirctly flowing on them. Some may be grotesque, some not. True to that definition, the Drahonstone gargoyles at least have diverse forms of many identifiable monsters.
The westerosi have some twisted ideas for bed-time stories,we all agree on that, but using a drain-pipe to scare children when you have the Night King and the Rat Cook?)

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That being said, one other house hold is said to have Gargoyles. Though i would argue that it just furthers my point. House Manderly have merlings and such. Being that they also likely descend from Garth the Green and are the only known members of the Order of the Green Hand, they too likely have ties to the Proto-Valyrians that the Valyrians came from too. Starting in Westeros. 

Edit-White Harbor was supposed to be a mirror of the castle they lost in the south.

Ah, thank you for bringing everyone's favorite mermen pie-makers extraordinnaires!
I always found their sigil strange, as Dustonbury was said to be by the river Mander, which I think implies it was not by the sea but a bit inland (yes, it could be by the sea and the estuary of the Mander, but the wording of text does not suggest it). I grant you they may have had contact with the sea by river-barge, but isn't it strange that a mainland house would choose a merman? Maybe they changed their original sigil when they immigrate to White Harbor? Like the Blackwoods depicting their weirwood as dead after it died?

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1 hour ago, Lemon of Lemonwood Rises said:

You and I both have two great cartoons and the internet to thank for that knowledge ^_^.
Westeros has neither, bit let's say all three might know what a gargoyle is by hearing about them in a fairytale, like the grumpkins and snarks.

My point remains the same though; if the gargoyles are so popular in stories, why are they present in just two buildings then? Only the Starks and old dragonlords deem them worthy decoration material?

(Also, after a brief research, the word gargoyle does not include pne specific type of monster, but refers to the actual carved  water drains used to protect walls from rain water eroding them by dirctly flowing on them. Some may be grotesque, some not. True to that definition, the Drahonstone gargoyles at least have diverse forms of many identifiable monsters.
The westerosi have some twisted ideas for bed-time stories,we all agree on that, but using a drain-pipe to scare children when you have the Night King and the Rat Cook?)

Ah, thank you for bringing everyone's favorite mermen pie-makers extraordinnaires!
I always found their sigil strange, as Dustonbury was said to be by the river Mander, which I think implies it was not by the sea but a bit inland (yes, it could be by the sea and the estuary of the Mander, but the wording of text does not suggest it). I grant you they may have had contact with the sea by river-barge, but isn't it strange that a mainland house would choose a merman? Maybe they changed their original sigil when they immigrate to White Harbor? Like the Blackwoods depicting their weirwood as dead after it died?

Well under my theory about Garth, it's not so strange. 

My hypothesis that Garth was the First King and that The Grey King (1007yrs) and Durran (1000yrs) are his children who warred over their sister.

One stole her (as per wildling tradition and Uthor Hightowers tale about the first Tourney and Maris and Argos (others raging outside the wall).) followed by the wedding in which the one who was robbed retaliated and assaulted them on their wedding night. As per Durran's story.

She was sacrificed to end the war though as per Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa's tale. Though she returned after the Battle of the Dawn and likely death of the Other brother. Then turning her former husband as per the Night's King tale. 

garths-children-and-their-war-of-love/

Being that House Manderly is a known member of the Order of the Green Hand. The last members supposedly dying on the Field of Fire. Though House Hightower never took the field and are likely also members. Both House Manderly and House Hightower are sea faring people. This is important as i distinguish between two types of cultures that formed from Garth's children. The Walrus men of the Old way and Salt Kings vs the Antler Men of the New Way and Rock Kings. House Manderly represents this split as do House Hoare in the settling of the Riverlands and Harrenhal (a sea race giving up their strength at sea to rule from the God's Eye, the seat of Garth the Green when he was High King of Rock and Salt.) Garth is the Merling King and all these houses descend from him, showing different attributes of Garth.

Remember my earlier quotes about House Gardener being dragon lords tied to Valyria and that Brandon of the Bloody Blade came from this house and was the parent to Bran the Builder likely who invaded the North. Thus explaining why House Manderly, Stark, and Targaryen would have Gargoyles. Though, you are right in that i would suspect Highgarden of having them or a couple other castles like Pyke and Casterly Rock. Due to them being present on both Ice and Fire houses

House Stark and House Manderly likely trace back to the Grey King in some way. (We do not know who Brandon of the Bloody Blades mother was) though Theon Stark had a large naval fleet that he sailed to Essos and attacked the Andals of the Axe with, so they were seafarers before the known Andals arrived. Also attested to through the Iron Isles, Tarth and Hightower being on Islands. 

So though Mance is not an Andal in the sense the later Andals, hes still of the same blood due to the Starks bringing that blood North with them when they invaded during the Long Night. The difference between Mance and the later Andals would be that of an Englishman today going to the U.S.A. Yea the american blood has been watered down by natives and others coming to america, but it still doesn't negate the blood tie that exist due to Englishmen founding this country. You could almost think of Westeros as america during colonization. Spain, England, Dutch and French. Rhoynish, Ghiscari, Valyrian and Andals. All tracing back to the Silver Sea as all of Europe traces back to the middle east. 

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I know people concentrate on Europe so much but dont forget that George is American and would also be aware of these discrepancies

He plays coy by saying that purple eyes are like blue eyes in the real world and that just cause all swiss have blue eyes, doesn't mean some one with blue eyes is swiss.. This doesn't change the fact that blue eyes is a mutation likely started by one person and passed on through Europe. 

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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