Has GRRM written believable/relatable females for his female readers?

[Traverys]

This is a question geared towards GRRMs esteemed readers that, by fate, chance, divine blessing, or any number of reasons are of the female persuasion: Do you feel GRRM has done a good job, as a male author, writing female characters for this series?

As a gay male I personally don't put much stock into gender (i.e., false dichotomy), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a very present and potent factor in our lives... no matter how much we may or may not wish it wasn't. So I wanted to start a thread about if girls/women/females feel like their gender is represented in the series with adequate care and intention. This is a question that extends beyond the atrocious treatment of stock character women (i.e., commoners) in times of war, which would be an entirely different discussion... It's more geared towards the numerous prominent female characters. 

There is a range of female characters we get lots of insight into. Some are stereotypical medieval "girls" (e.g., Sansa), some are strong mothers (e.g., Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna), some are completely subversive to stereotypes (e.g., Asha, Arya, Brienne, Meera, etc.), and some walk the line between fulfilling and subverting many "womanly" stereotypes (e.g., Daenerys comes to mind, perhaps evem Cersei).

So, in your experienced opinion:

1. Is there a female character/representation you find completely inaccurate and offensive?

2. Is there a female character/representation you find completely accurate? (Which may or may not be offensive)

3. For out experienced or prospective mothers: Does GRRM accurately represent the ups and downs of motherhood compared to the (period/era bound) responsibilities of fatherhood?

4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times?

5. Is there a character you feel like would represent you in a "past life" in tune with the time period? And why?

6. Any other on topic point you want to touch on that you think/feel strongly about regarding the dynamic female representation in ASoIaF.
 

I hope we can all keep the subject constructive and respectful. I just felt like there are plenty of women on this forum with important things to say. Wanted to have an opportunity to read their replies and opinions. By GRRM's own admission, fantasy has been a straight male genre for decades and has problematic interpretations of dynamic female characters. If a female character isn't an Arya, Asha, or Brienne, then she traditionally isn't considered interesting enough to be a main character.

So the underlying message here is: has he given us progress?

 

[Gertrude]

I'm not sure how to respond. I think GRRM writes characters well, period.

In general, I don't find many things that ring false in his characterizations.There do tend to be some that are over the top, but not in his PoVs. Ramsey and Joffrey are cartoon villains, to an extent Lysa too. We get part of their story and see them from the outside looking in. I tend to forgive these because stories need color and catalysts to move the action along.

Among his PoV characters, Dany didn't ring true to me as a young bride to Drogo. When I try to pin point a specific thing, I hesitate and can justify each action or thought, but as a whole, it just felt off to me. She seemed too confidant in herself and taking control of her life and sexuality with Drogo, especially when the major influence on her life was Viserys who bullied and threatened her. I can't say it won't resonate for someone else, but for me, this was the hardest PoV to connect to and understand/believe.

The one I most connected to and just groked was Arya. There are steroetypes for a reason. Specifically I'll say young Arya who wanted to swordfight with the boys and screw the needlework. I wanted to play little league football when I was young, but girls were not allowed to. My dad was a coach, so I went and would practice with them, I knew all the plays and could catch and throw a tackle, but I couldn't be on the team. I had always been a cheerleader for them (Go Colts!) but once I was of age with the boys playing, I didn't want to anymore. So that whole thing where Arya is forced to sew is like me being pigeonholed into being a cheerleader. I didn't hate cheerleading, but I resented it because it was the only acceptable outlet for me.

So, had he given us progress? Probably, but I don't think it was necessarily intentional. I think he just really has a gift for characterization and he doesn't distinguish between male and female. I'm having trouble with the word 'progress'. I'm not sure what you're looking for, exactly. I think the progress is the higher bar he sets for writing quality in general, not specifically for women.

[GloubieBoulga]

First, I would say that I consider humans as... humans, before as male and female (I don't think male are coming from Mars, nor female from Venus ^^). GRRM explores first their human hearts, with their feelings, their desires, fears, dreams and nightmares, and so on, so the feminine characters are for me very realistic and some of the most interesting characters I ever read because they exist by themselves and not like sidekicks or love interest for men. They just are anti-disney princess (even Sansa).

I had only a problem with Dany's daily rape by khal Drogo and the fact that she fell in love with him : her dragon's dream explains how she can stop to be a victim and how she can pass from death to life, but I confess that I needed to consider the symbolism and mysticism to accept what seems to me an unrealistic love : in the real world, choosing life is not chosing to love the torturer. But in that way, Daenerys is far far far stronger than her Drogo and that's the point that made me rethinking some  of my views (=women aren't condamned to eternal victimization)

 

[Serafina]

Overall I am very pleased with Martin's characterization and it's one of the main reason I love the books so much. Not sure he has given us progress, but he certainly didn't bring us steps backward for the most part (the major exception being Dany/Drogo relationships as @GloubieBoulga explained).

 

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

This is a question geared towards GRRMs esteemed readers that, by fate, chance, divine blessing, or any number of reasons are of the female persuasion: Do you feel GRRM has done a good job, as a male author, writing female characters for this series?

As a gay male I personally don't put much stock into gender (i.e., false dichotomy), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a very present and potent factor in our lives... no matter how much we may or may not wish it wasn't. So I wanted to start a thread about if girls/women/females feel like their gender is represented in the series with adequate care and intention. This is a question that extends beyond the atrocious treatment of stock character women (i.e., commoners) in times of war, which would be an entirely different discussion... It's more geared towards the numerous prominent female characters. 

There is a range of female characters we get lots of insight into. Some are stereotypical medieval "girls" (e.g., Sansa), some are strong mothers (e.g., Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna), some are completely subversive to stereotypes (e.g., Asha, Arya, Brienne, Meera, etc.), and some walk the line between fulfilling and subverting many "womanly" stereotypes (e.g., Daenerys comes to mind, perhaps evem Cersei).

So, in your experienced opinion:

1. Is there a female character/representation you find completely inaccurate and offensive?

2. Is there a female character/representation you find completely accurate? (Which may or may not be offensive)

Shae is a mockery of a sex worker that could only be written by a man... In this regard, the TV series did a great job giving her depth, backstory, and political opinions. In the books she is vain and childish, and although it can be explained by the fact we see her through the eyes of Benevolent Sexist Tyrion (who besides hires her services), Shae's character is a disgrace. And even more so when Martin implies she betrayed Tyrion, who truly loved her right ?, for money... She didn't betray anyone, she just performed the job she was payed for or forced into by Tywin.

Period wise, Sansa and Catelyn are absolutely accurate as the first daughters in a high-born and high profile family, and it really hurts to see people bashing them for this. I don't get why you describe Sansa as a "stereotypical medieval girl", could you explain what you mean by that ? 

I wouldn't describe Catelyn, Cersei and Olenna solely as "strong mothers". Catelyn's chapters demonstrate her diplomacy insights and that she was as good a political adviser as any of Robb's bannermen, Cersei is first and foremost a queen, and Olenna has carried the whole house Tyrell on her shoulders for decades... I concede they happen to be mothers as well and they fiercely care about their families, but would you describe Rickard Karstark, Jon Connington or Doran Martell as "fathers and that's it about them" ?

 

4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times?

Not really, and tbh I wish you didn't imply some women could find advantages in being oppressed by patriarchy in the Middle Ages (and beyond)...

 

5. Is there a character you feel like would represent you in a "past life" in tune with the time period? And why?

Thinking hard on this one but it would be Maege Mormont. I think she breaks as many gender stereotypes as Arya, Asha or Brienne do, but unlike them both, Maege has surrounded herself and supported strong-headed girls/women in order to do so. We don't see her much but I think her character and her daughters' convey the idea that we are stronger together (I totally agree with it). Consequently I connect more easily with Maege than with Special Snowflakes Arya & Brienne (although I do love these characters). Besides it's always a good sign when a man complains about a woman being stubborn the way Jeor did about his sister ^^

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

1 hour ago, Serafina said:

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

I’m a man but I’ve always gotten on better with women and in turn I find the more feminine female PoVs the most enjoyable (Daenerys, Sansa, Cersei, Catelyn, Arianne). 

However, I am gay and I do find the way GRRM writes their attraction to men unrealistic. Somewhat related to this, I find it a little odd how most of the characters seem to idolise smooth-skinned men and find body hair unattractive, especially in the quasi-medieval setting. It’s also over-sexualised how the female PoVs view their own bodies, it makes it seem like they’re all slightly narcisstic and sexually attracted to themselves. Especially in the Daenerys chapters I can feel the author’s sexual attraction to his character seeping into the writing which not only distracts from the prose but is also pretty disturbing considering her age. The sexualisation of Daenerys is my biggest criticism of the books as a whole tbh. 

[Jon Fossoway]

Sure. Cersei & Brienne have distinctive feminine voices inside my head. Asha does sounds bisexual (and I like that vibe, being myself a bisexual dude), and I fail to picture Dany, really, and get upset reading all of Sansa's chapters.

4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times?

All of them, to be honest. I think George was clear on the role of women during medieval times and put an extra effort on subverting them.

 

[Pikachu101]

I think he's done a great job with female characters! None of them are the same, plus they're all realistic without falling into the trap of being either the vitruous saint or the wicked witch. The only issue I have is how he wrote Dornish women; they're too hypersexualised. 

[Banner Without Brothers]

4 hours ago, Serafina said:

Special Snowflakes Arya & Brienne (although I do love these characters). Besides it's always a good sign when a man complains about a woman being stubborn the way Jeor did about his sister ^^

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

I thought really hard about this but no. I can't identify with any female characters, but then I don't really identify with any of the male ones either. Maybe bits of one and parts of another.

If I could be more like any character it would be Brienne. I admire how tough she is and her dogged determination. The amount of obstacles she has to overcome to chase her dream would break most people. Which is why I wondered why you describe her as a special snowflake?

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I personally don't really think of the female characters too much because, as someone else pointed out, when I read characters in a book, I judge them by their person, not their sex, and personalities are shaped by the person's environment; I may be a woman, but I for the most part can't relate to a woman from the U.S., for example, but that is because I am from a completely different country with a completely different culture than the woman from the U.S. Just because I am a woman, that doesn't mean that I can relate to every single woman in the world or just any female character in a book and/or a TV show.

And that is the reason why I for the most part can't relate to just any female character in ASoIaF; they are supposed to live in a completely different time in a completely different society. I don't think most women on this forum can relate to most of our female characters. Maybe some aspects of them, but not their entire character. It's very easy to say what you would do if you were a noblewoman living in the Middle Ages during times of war and it is fun to imagine the things you would do, but the truth is that most people would have no clue what they would do if they were put in that situation and would probably be one of the first people to die.

7 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I had only a problem with Dany's daily rape by khal Drogo and the fact that she fell in love with him : her dragon's dream explains how she can stop to be a victim and how she can pass from death to life, but I confess that I needed to consider the symbolism and mysticism to accept what seems to me an unrealistic love : in the real world, choosing life is not chosing to love the torturer. But in that way, Daenerys is far far far stronger than her Drogo and that's the point that made me rethinking some  of my views (=women aren't condamned to eternal victimization)

 

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Among his PoV characters, Dany didn't ring true to me as a young bride to Drogo. When I try to pin point a specific thing, I hesitate and can justify each action or thought, but as a whole, it just felt off to me. She seemed too confidant in herself and taking control of her life and sexuality with Drogo, especially when the major influence on her life was Viserys who bullied and threatened her. I can't say it won't resonate for someone else, but for me, this was the hardest PoV to connect to and understand/believe.

These two I agree with, though.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Most unbelievable is Arya.  She's too unrealistic.  A ten year old messed up serial killer.  

Margery is the most realistic.  But rather dull.

Daenerys is my favorite.  She's a larger than life character and that makes her very interesting to me.  She is god-like and not like the average girl.  She's who everyone would love to be.  Her story arc is so epic that she is not someone you relate with but love anyway.  

[Serafina]

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

It’s also over-sexualised how the female PoVs view their own bodies, it makes it seem like they’re all slightly narcisstic and sexually attracted to themselves. Especially in the Daenerys chapters I can feel the author’s sexual attraction to his character seeping into the writing which not only distracts from the prose but is also pretty disturbing considering her age. The sexualisation of Daenerys is my biggest criticism of the books as a whole tbh. 

Maybe Martin intended to write female characters comfortable in their own skin and sexuality but I agree some bits in Dany's chapters are definitely over-sexualised and voyeuristic. 

 

20 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I thought really hard about this but no. I can't identify with any female characters, but then I don't really identify with any of the male ones either. Maybe bits of one and parts of another.

If I could be more like any character it would be Brienne. I admire how tough she is and her dogged determination. The amount of obstacles she has to overcome to chase her dream would break most people. Which is why I wondered why you describe her as a special snowflake?

Well, Brienne fighting and overcoming gender roles all alone doesn't seem realistic to me. If I recall correctly a conversation about her childhood she has at one point with Catelyn, her father supported her but nobody else. Brienne is still isolated, she doesn't have any entourage. History has proven you can't go after a system alone, it is exhausting and you are not helping anybody but yourself. 

[ravenous reader]

9 hours ago, Traverys said:

Do you feel GRRM has done a good job, as a male author, writing female characters for this series?

Yes, although his sex scenes from a female perspective are cringeworthy!

 

[Tygett Lannister]

I think he did good job considering he is no a female.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

8 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I had only a problem with Dany's daily rape by khal Drogo and the fact that she fell in love with him

Ok, I'm really not trying to start an argument.  I also agree that the Dany/Drogo love situation is a odd/unlikely.  It's just the "daily rape".

Quote

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said.

"Is that the only word you know?" she asked him.

Drogo did not reply. His long heavy braid was coiled in the dirt beside him. He pulled it over his right shoulder and began to remove the bells from his hair, one by one. After a moment Dany leaned forward to help. When they were done, Drogo gestured. She understood. Slowly, carefully, she began to undo his braid.

It took a long time. All the while he sat there silently, watching her. When she was done, he shook his head, and his hair spread out behind him like a river of darkness, oiled and gleaming. She had never seen hair so long, so black, so thick.

His fingers were deft and strangely tender. He removed her silks one by one, carefully, while Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes. When he bared her small breasts, she could not help herself. She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. "No," Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him. "No," he repeated.

"No," she echoed back at him.  He stood her up then and pulled her close to remove the last of her silks. The night air was chilly on her bare skin. She shivered, and gooseflesh covered her arms and legs. She was afraid of what would come next, but for a while nothing happened. Khal Drogo sat with his legs crossed, looking at her, drinking in her body with his eyes.After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder.

She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine. It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.  --A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

 

 

Doesn't seem like rape to me.....Ok, there is this:

Quote

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.--A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

That is pretty rough.  I suppose her feelings of powerlessness is why you consider it rape, no? I think it's a little more complicated than rape, but I'm just trying to see it from a woman's perspective. 

Nice topic @Traverys, cheers.

[Springwatch]

I think the idea behind Dany's early scenes is to show her transformation into a dragon. The frightened girl sees Drogo as terrifying, rapey barbarian. The dragon sees a tasty morsel and lots of fun times. (There could be better ways of depicting character growth...)

Something else I didn't like was the mini-theme of crazy mother love - Cersei, Lysa, Cat. It's too much. It even has it's own quote, in case we missed it: "Mothers ... I think birthing does something to your minds. You are all mad."  [Jaime, AGOT]

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

It's just the "daily rape".

Quote

He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said.

"Is that the only word you know?" she asked him.

Drogo did not reply. His long heavy braid was coiled in the dirt beside him. He pulled it over his right shoulder and began to remove the bells from his hair, one by one. After a moment Dany leaned forward to help. When they were done, Drogo gestured. She understood. Slowly, carefully, she began to undo his braid.

It took a long time. All the while he sat there silently, watching her. When she was done, he shook his head, and his hair spread out behind him like a river of darkness, oiled and gleaming. She had never seen hair so long, so black, so thick.

His fingers were deft and strangely tender. He removed her silks one by one, carefully, while Dany sat unmoving, silent, looking at his eyes. When he bared her small breasts, she could not help herself. She averted her eyes and covered herself with her hands. "No," Drogo said. He pulled her hands away from her breasts, gently but firmly, then lifted her face again to make her look at him. "No," he repeated.

"No," she echoed back at him.  He stood her up then and pulled her close to remove the last of her silks. The night air was chilly on her bare skin. She shivered, and gooseflesh covered her arms and legs. She was afraid of what would come next, but for a while nothing happened. Khal Drogo sat with his legs crossed, looking at her, drinking in her body with his eyes.After a while he began to touch her. Lightly at first, then harder.

She could sense the fierce strength in his hands, but he never hurt her. He held her hand in his own and brushed her fingers, one by one. He ran a hand gently down her leg. He stroked her face, tracing the curve of her ears, running a finger gently around her mouth. He put both hands in her hair and combed it with his fingers. He turned her around, massaged her shoulders, slid a knuckle down the path of her spine. It seemed as if hours passed before his hands finally went to her breasts. He stroked the soft skin underneath until it tingled. He circled her nipples with his thumbs, pinched them between thumb and forefinger, then began to pull at her, very lightly at first, then more insistently, until her nipples stiffened and began to ache.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and she looked into his eyes. "No?" he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. "Yes," she whispered as she put his finger inside her.  --A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

 

 

Doesn't seem like rape to me.....

From a literary perspective, it's definitely a 'rape' of James Joyce's original version! 

[GloubieBoulga]

30 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

That is pretty rough.  I suppose her feelings of powerlessness is why you consider it rape, no? I think it's a little more complicated than rape, but I'm just trying to see it from a woman's perspective. 

Effectively I didn't think to her first time because Daenerys gives her consent and Drogo doesn't force it.

But after, the text is explicit : there is no consent from Dany, Drogo takes his pleasure and wounds her without taking care, that's rape, I don't know how to name it with another word. It's linked to her feeling of lowness, yes, but that is litterature^^

[Traverys]

I just wanted to start with I'm glad people are happy to engage in discussion about this. While I singled out a certain demographic for discussion, I regret any sentiments that I was being exclusive. It's a sensitive topic and I just hope I addressed it in the least offensive way possible in order to maximize honest discussion. I'll get to that further below.

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

So that whole thing where Arya is forced to sew is like me being pigeonholed into being a cheerleader. I didn't hate cheerleading, but I resented it because it was the only acceptable outlet for me.

This goes into the crux of my inquiry. I'm sure there is an equivalent male perspective about being pigeonholed into what one should and should not do in life (e.g., sworldplay and war). However, I maintain that women have had it worst of all throughout most of our history across cultures. 95% of my friends and close relationships are women, but that doesn't mean I'm able to completely understand. So I was very curious how a female perceives the series. I wasn't given toy vacuum cleaners and kitchenettes as a child (not saying every girl is or was, but still...), so there is a difference in early childhood perspectives. What can I do in life? What is allowed? What is normal? Research shows modern western parents treat their newborn boys (e.g., he looks so strong, he'll be a soldier/athlete) and girls (e.g., she's so pretty, she'll make a man happy one day) much differently... so imagine how it was in medieval times!

I also wanted to thank for your honest response!

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Among his PoV characters, Dany didn't ring true to me as a young bride to Drogo.

Me either... again, from my biased gay male perspective. There's something that rings untrue. Perhaps its that she maintains her love for him well beyond his death? And becomes this powerful woman remains unable to see how powerless she was during her marriage to him? I don't know... it's certainly complex. While it doesn't ring true to us, perhaps it's important that it brings this conversation to the surface? I saw many people below this post also have concern or ambiguous feelings concerning Daenerys and Drogo. So consider this my response to them all.

 

10 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

First, I would say that I consider humans as... humans, before as male and female (I don't think male are coming from Mars, nor female from Venus ^^). GRRM explores first their human hearts, with their feelings, their desires, fears, dreams and nightmares, and so on, so the feminine characters are for me very realistic and some of the most interesting characters I ever read because they exist by themselves and not like sidekicks or love interest for men. They just are anti-disney princess (even Sansa).

I agree fullheartedly. But can't deny that a woman's situation is much different than a man's during those times. I take from this that you feel that the author treated women equally compared to men as far as depth and characterization. I just wanted to know female perspective for reasons mentioned above.

7 hours ago, Serafina said:

Period wise, Sansa and Catelyn are absolutely accurate as the first daughters in a high-born and high profile family, and it really hurts to see people bashing them for this. I don't get why you describe Sansa as a "stereotypical medieval girl", could you explain what you mean by that ? 

Sure! What I meant by that is that Sansa (and even Catelyn) is a highly unpopular character in the fandom. It's not hard to blame people because Sansa starts out as a "nasty little shit" considering vanity and her entitlement as the daughter of a high lord, bride to the heir apparent to the Seven Kingdoms, and a beauty. I personally have never held this against her... This is a dream come true for a highborn girl... she'll achieve the highest status and prestige a woman can when her husband becomes king. But many criticize her for being... well, a very young highborn girl. There's no reference point in fantasy fiction to connect her to. An actual highborn lady behaving like ladies were expected to. Fantasy typically creates female characters that are rebelling princesses or tomboys and that is considered an interesting female character. Sansa is not part of these stereotypical fantasy tropes, and thus is unfamiliar territory for many longtime fantasy readers.

That's all my statement meant regarding Sansa as a stereotypical girl for the time period. We know now she has so much more potential to be more than that, but there are also critics that shoot down this idea she will rise to the occasion. Where is the proof? But that's a conversation for a different topic.

7 hours ago, Serafina said:

Not really, and tbh I wish you didn't imply some women could find advantages in being oppressed by patriarchy in the Middle Ages (and beyond)...

Well, I think this isn't taking everything into consideration. I certainly don't believe that women were at advantage under the thumb of men who ruled... but I think some women found a way to bend the rules of expectation to their advantage. While this is not an overarching advantage that made them equal or superior to men (men certainly always had the upper hand), but historically there were ways for women to assert themselves. It'd be a dishonor if we didn't acknowledge the (albeit controversial) accomplishments of female leaders such as Eleanor of Aquitaine and Queen Victoria... Or even Margaret of Anjou. Women weren't always quiet spectators of the patriarchy in the annals of history... and, for me, they make the most exciting players when they get sick of the bullshit and assert themselves.

I was disappointed my words were misinterpreted or misleading. Catelyn Stark remains my favorite character because she operated within the acceptable boundaries of a woman (not that I support said boundaries) but managed to have quite a strong influence in spite of them. AND she was effective for most of her POV chapters. I can't blame her as a parent for being absolutely devoted to her children. We're hardwired to focus on our offspring. Even freeing Jaime warmed my heart. All she wanted was the safety of her girls, who were, to Catelyn, equally important as her sons. But many people hate her. Just do a casual search and you'll find plenty of examples.

I don't know... I just have nothing but respect for Catelyn Stark. Can't even compare her to a literary character in existence because I don't think they exist. A woman was required to be clever (e.g., Catelyn, Olenna, and probably Margaery) in order to be assertive and influential among the games the high lords played. I also really love Lady Barbrey for these reasons...

7 hours ago, Serafina said:

Thinking hard on this one but it would be Maege Mormont.

Yesssss. Mormont women are my heroes. I think the fact that Maege's children's father(s) remain ambiguous is a really powerful message. It begs to question the line of succession they insisted on back in the Middle Ages and before (and beyond)... Men were always so concerned that the children their wife bore were their own... They'd even lock women away to be their breed-mare to ensure legitimate children.

But a woman always knows a child they are carrying is their own. Maege knows her daughter are her own. So what is the most efficient method of tracing bloodlines? Matrilineal.

7 hours ago, Serafina said:

Consequently I connect more easily with Maege than with Special Snowflakes Arya & Brienne (although I do love these characters).

I think many people will have a hard time grasping how they are "special snowflakes" but I understand what you mean. I give Brienne kudos though because she certainly was raised as a woman and is deeply wounded by the fact she can't be "pretty" or "womanly" even if she wanted to. They even call her Brienne the Beauty to mock her further.

Arya has no interest at all, which is very stereotypical for fantasy fiction. She's essentially a boy and even passes as one for a time. Perhaps she would be a bit more compelling if this was a story about gender identity, but Arya's is a story about revenge and being willing to take on whatever personality/identity to achieve her goals.

Brienne is at least a twist on a common trope.

(For the record, I love both Arya and Brienne. They're written wonderfully but I'm speaking from a "is he breaking conventions?" voice.)

 

 

I have to get back to work, but wanted to reply as much as I could. I saw a lot of important things below (above?) I wanted to respond to or stimulate for further discussion but I'll have to get back to you peeps later.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe off topic,  but I don't understand why Olenna has to constantly ridicule her own son Mace Tyrell. He is her son and has done his best to make her proud. Yet she constantly cuts him down in front of strangers and undermines him in front of his own family. That could get him AND his children killed in this world, yet there goes Olenna, making up stupid and hurtful names for herself and others to call Mace behind his back.

It's reminds me of Tony Soprano and the relationship he had with his mom.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe off topic,  but I don't understand why Olenna has to constantly ridicule her own son Mace Tyrell. He is her son and has done his best to make her proud. Yet she constantly cuts him down in front of strangers and undermines him in front of his own family. That could get him AND his children killed in this world, yet there goes Olenna, making up stupid and hurtful names for herself and others to call Mace behind his back.

This is part of a game. Mace Tyrell isn't all that much of an oaf, nor are his ambitions things his dear mother doesn't like. Olenna is a rather eccentric old woman. And as the mother of the most powerful lord in the Realm she can afford to be outspoken and frank. Very few people are going to contradict or challenge her.

Not being a woman, I can still say that I don't like the way those 'trophy women' we meet are introduced and treated - I'm talking about Ygritte, Tysha, Shae, etc.

Does it make sense that Jon would spare Ygritte's life? Sure. And would she be grateful for that? Sure. But does it make sense that she suddenly falls for him? Not necessarily. It is even worse with Tysha? Is it impossible that a girl would fall for an ugly dwarf boy like Tyrion for no good reason? No. Does this make for an interesting story? Yes. It is a very likely/believable scenario? No.

I think George has learned to describe attraction to men much better in TMK and ADwD when he began to experiment describing gay attraction (Daemon Blackfyre hitting on Dunk, Alyn Cockshaw's jealousy, Connington's memories of Rhaegar and Myles Toyne). I think this also helped make the AFfC/ADwD Asha and Arianne chapters better.

By comparison, the Sansa-Sandor scenes and especially the Dany-Drogo relationship are much more problematic. The latter is essentially a relationship grounded in and based on the sexual abuse and rape of a child which is later glorified as 'love' which essentially should be nothing but a girl suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.