Has GRRM written believable/relatable females for his female readers?

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Traverys said:

I certainly don't believe that women were at advantage under the thumb of men who ruled... but I think some women found a way to bend the rules of expectation to their advantage.

Chataya.

2 hours ago, Traverys said:

Arya has no interest at all, which is very stereotypical for fantasy fiction. She's essentially a boy and even passes as one for a time. Perhaps she would be a bit more compelling if this was a story about gender identity,

"Gender identity" has nothing to do with Arya's story. She's a girl, she knows she's a girl, she's offended when people mistake her for a boy - but smart enough to keep quiet when she needs to stay below the radar.

9 hours ago, Serafina said:

Special Snowflakes Arya & Brienne

That's an epithet used pretty much exclusively by the US nazi-wannabes. It's just one of those generic insults, having no real meaning.

[Curled Finger]

What a wonderful conversation.  I like to think I am thoroughly modern in thought and action.  Yah, reconcile that with raised Southern USA and you get more contemporary thoughts than action. Now that I've made my confession relative to the conversation I deem myself by rearing to be more or less a 1st Men Riverlands values type person.    Not willing to give it up to the old ways 100%, but I'm never going to forget.  Did I just refer to myself as a Bracken?   Ah geez...

In the south we are (were) raised to have absolute respect for our elders (principals with swatting boards), God and country--this is the deep south.   I had to smile at the 1st mentions of guest right in ASOIAF and inevitably heard the butter lady from the commercials of old saying "Ya'll come back now, you hear?"invite me to her table as she did when i was small.  As a person who has seen more years than most our valued colleagues here, the ASOIAF was a life changing thing.   As a parent, grandparent and great-grandparent I have earned the right to judge all the parents everywhere.  (No one has judged me harsher than I've judged myself.)  Cersei is a selfish prick and Cat is an unashamed moron groupie.   They both suck.    Sansa is a better mom and she's poisoning her charge.    I have a couple of young men who are closer to your ages.   They are known to me as Jack and Ass.  Good parents can run that game.   Olenna is just having fun and doing what she does so well.  Mostly  it makes them leave the area allowing for intelligent conversation, but if you get them in the right mood they will tell the tale of the christening and publicly argue whom is who.   Compare Olenna Redwyne Tyrell to Walder Frey.  Walder is mean and openly plays the children he publicly bad-mouths against each other.   Olenna just irritably calls Mace an oaf, but by the looks of it, the game works well for both of them.   Can't say the same for the Frey bunch.  Olenna has carried her entire family forever.   She has maintained and added to an empire.  For her son.  Let the old gal be, she knows what she's doing.    I enjoy and appreciate Maege, Brienne, Asha, Ygritte and Arya--even the Sand Snakes a little bit, but I relate to them in no way.    I don't have that ferocity, lack of empathy or unacceptable driving force (death lists, all crows should die, make a little queen, build statues of nursing mothers bearing arms, 1 goal above all others at the price of all others). I'm just not a blood and guts get the job done kinda guy in real life.   I don't enjoy violence and we get some truly devastating  violence with these well, killers.  They meet it so well.  And completely unrealistically.

There are many characters you did not mention, @Traverys'as they are only minor players.   Still I found an astonishingly realistic and heart wrenching portrayal of a real woman.   Women I have known.  As seen through Jamie's eyes:

The maester smiled modestly. "Your fever was largely gone, and I thought you might enjoy a bit of exercise. Pia is quite skilled, would you not agree? And so . . . willing."  ASOS Jamie 4

Pia is a young prostitute doing her time at Harrnehall while Jamie recuperates from his injuries.  Pia slips into Jamie's room and attempts to entice him to sex.   Instead she curls up in bed with this HERO OF THE LAND and worships at his altar.  No sex, just the sweet adoration of a too-young woman in too nasty a job.   Jamie meets Pia later again at Harenhall.  

 The Brave Companions had abandoned Vargo Hoat to a man, it would seem. Of Lady Whent's people, only three remained—the cook who had opened the postern gate for Ser Gregor, a bent-back armorer called Ben Blackthumb, and a girl named Pia, who was not near as pretty as she had been when Jaime saw her last. Someone had broken her nose and knocked out half her teeth. The girl fell at Jaime's feet when she saw him, sobbing and clinging to his leg with hysterical strength till Strongboar pulled her off. "No one will hurt you now," he told her, but that only made her sob the louder.  AFFC Jamie 3

I know Pia isn't glamorous or powerful.  She is too many of our daughters without hope or resources.  I hope we see her again.  

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

  I enjoy and appreciate Maege, Brienne, Asha, Ygritte and Arya--even the Sand Snakes a little bit, but I relate to them in no way.    I don't have that ferocity, lack of empathy or unacceptable driving force (death lists, all crows should die, make a little queen, build statues of nursing mothers bearing arms, 1 goal above all others at the price of all others). I'm just not a blood and guts get the job done kinda guy in real life.   I don't enjoy violence and we get some truly devastating  violence with these well, killers.  They meet it so well.  And completely unrealistically.

I don't think you have to relate to every quality about a character. Earlier I said I related to Arya. I was thinking about Arya in Winterfell surrounded by her family. I can't relate to what she has become, but her at the start of the story, absolutely.

I can relate to Dany always second guessing herself even while pushing forward with what she feels is right. I understand Cat's decision making processes, even though they don't end well. I had a little Sansa in me - idealistically believing that people were good, and that the world has rules and you should respect them. I was also a little like Brienne or the Mormont ladies when I was the only girl who refused to wear a dress for a school program. My teacher and parents strongly encouraged it, but I didn't want to and won that fight. Cersei isn't wrong when she notices how differently she and Jaime were treated growing up and resents it.

I could go through the male characters as well and find bits I can relate to, and I kind of think that's the genius of what GRRM is doing. These characters feel like real people with real strengths and flaws. I'm not focusing on the non PoV characters because we don't really get to see what they are, just what others perceive them to be. I agree there are some really strong characters in that bunch, and I don't mean to dismiss them. We just can't evaluate them in the same way. These are extraordinary characters doing extraordinary things, so I'm guessing most of us don't relate to the more extreme aspects of these women (and men). But they are all human enough that we can recognize familiar things in their make-up.

[Princess Daenerys]

Mr. Martin has done a good job with creating his females.  Much better than Mr. Jordan of the Wheel of time series. 

I can't really relate to any of the characters in the story because they live much differently than I do.  I worry about grades and future career.  The people in the story worry about survival.  They face life and death each day and I deal with traffic. 

I love Dany even though we're nothing alike.  I was never as smart at her age.  I cared little beyond getting my license and shopping for clothes.  Dany is remarkable at any age and great for her age to even care about the welfare of other people.  I do wish I had been more like that when I was little.  I guess we all mature at a different pace.

Catelyn is a little like my mom.  I suppose there is a caring mom hidden underneath Cersei too.  I have known spacey girls like Sansa back in high school but they were not as dumb.  Brienne is just ridiculous to the point of being silly and cartoonish.  The same can be said of Arya and Asha. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is part of a game. Mace Tyrell isn't all that much of an oaf, nor are his ambitions things his dear mother doesn't like

True, if Mace was really the dope she makes him out to be she and the rest of the family would never say it out loud and probably keep him occupied in Highgarden away from court.  Nonetheless it would be nice if we got some sort of Tyrell POV where we see an emotional Olenna tell Mace she's proud of him and loves him. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany-Drogo relationship are much more problematic. The latter is essentially a relationship grounded in and based on the sexual abuse and rape of a child which is later glorified as 'love' which essentially should be nothing but a girl suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

I always thought that is was GRRM intention for it to be exactly that, Stockholm Syndrome. Has he ever addressed this in an interview or Q and A before I wonder?

[Traverys]

19 hours ago, Serafina said:

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

This is a wonderful suggestion. And wonderful questions. Like I said, I wasn't meaning to be completely exclusive. I hope people of all backgrounds and identities feel comfortable adding their thoughts to this conversation.

14 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

And that is the reason why I for the most part can't relate to just any female character in ASoIaF; they are supposed to live in a completely different time in a completely different society.

Well, to play devil's advocate a little bit, some would argue that times have changed, but women are still receiving the short end of the stick. Unfortunately, many of the beliefs about why this is extends back to the rigid social order enforced on men and women "back in the day." Some would say society may have adapted and provided a more welcoming society for women (e.g., employment, voting rights, owning their own bodies and reproductive faculties, etc.), we still haven't reached an area of equality. We still haven't reached a place where people are people, rather than men and women. And we have fiction like A Handmaid's Tale that warns us how these things (especially women's rights to their own bodies) we take for granted can be swiped away if we don't stay vigilant.

I understand how hypocritical this sounds because I started a topic that is inherently divisive ("I wanna hear about how WOMEN feel about female characters"), but unless we have these conversations I don't see how progress can be made. But I'm glad that you as a person don't feel like the trials and tribulations of Westerosi women applies to your life today.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not being a woman, I can still say that I don't like the way those 'trophy women' we meet are introduced and treated - I'm talking about Ygritte, Tysha, Shae, etc.

Does it make sense that Jon would spare Ygritte's life? Sure. And would she be grateful for that? Sure. But does it make sense that she suddenly falls for him? Not necessarily. It is even worse with Tysha? Is it impossible that a girl would fall for an ugly dwarf boy like Tyrion for no good reason? No. Does this make for an interesting story? Yes. It is a very likely/believable scenario? No.

Always happy to read a response by you @Lord Varys. Yeah, I see how these things are problematic.

Well, GRRM covers his tracks with Ygritte by making that interesting tradition of widling men "stealing" wildling women and thus making them wives. It's an interesting concept considering a woman could geld or kill a man they found unworthy. A woman like Ygritte wouldn't have any problem doing that. But I agree the relationship was a little too... convenient? Flat?

Someone a while back posted about how GRRM is fixated on incest and that Ygritte is just a homunculus of Sansa and Arya (tomboy with red hair, essentially). I of course shook my fist and argued against these notions... but the Arya + Sansa = Ygritte notion always stuck with me. Sure, Sansa's hair is auburn, and the majority of us assume Jon is only their cousin... But  I feel like, for good or ill, there's something to be taken seriously about it. Or some foreshadowing, at least.

Another thing I hesitate to mention is that Tyrion clearly came from money. A commoner put into a situation to be romantically involved with a high lord/lady of means has to play into the romantic attraction. How could it not? Food, roof over head, security, etc. We see the negative side of this most strongly with Shae. It's probably a rarely explored topic: Tyrion may have inflated his "true love" with Tysha. Not as popular as extrapolating the nuances of his relationship with Shae... Not saying Tysha wasn't a lovely person who may have loved him for the nice guy we as readers know he is (was?)... but financial security would realistically be a tally in favor of her affections for him. A dangerous miscalculation on both their parts. Through her story we get to see the dark side of how the highborn can scrub away nuisances like a common girl that win the affections of a highborn son.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think George has learned to describe attraction to men much better in TMK and ADwD when he began to experiment describing gay attraction (Daemon Blackfyre hitting on Dunk, Alyn Cockshaw's jealousy, Connington's memories of Rhaegar and Myles Toyne). I think this also helped make the AFfC/ADwD Asha and Arianne chapters better.

It's always a hard thing to remember that GRRM is a continuously evolving writer than the legend I think of in my mind. As man interested in the company of men, I haven't been offended by his portrayal/inclusion of gay men at all. It was refreshing, to say the least. Lyn Corbray may be the exception because of the inaccurate pairing of homosexuality with pedophilia, but we don't really know that's the case. "Boys" could indicate teens or just pretty men. I just applaud him for even trying and opening that door. It's certainly less offensive than Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in the Dune series.

I would have loved to see how Renly and Margaery would have plotted to make their marriage work (producing heirs, etc.), but of course that plot was cut short.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By comparison, the Sansa-Sandor scenes and especially the Dany-Drogo relationship are much more problematic. The latter is essentially a relationship grounded in and based on the sexual abuse and rape of a child which is later glorified as 'love' which essentially should be nothing but a girl suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Yeah, there are many criticisms about the Daenerys-Drogo relationship... and the likelihood of Stockholm Syndrome is pretty apparent.

Could you elaborate on the problematic nature of Sansa-Sandor? I think there's an interesting discussion there but don't want to put words in your mouth. Curious about your thoughts on its problematic nature.

5 hours ago, Princess Daenerys said:

Mr. Martin has done a good job with creating his females.  Much better than Mr. Jordan of the Wheel of time series. 

Ugh, this is so true. I actually read the first few books of the Wheel of Time series after finishing the published ASoIaF books and it's a hard read considering the difference in representation. I roll my eyes everytime I have to read about Rand, Mat, or Perrin go on and on about how woman are nonsensical to them. I understand perhaps Jordan included some foundation for this seemingly universal belief (e.g., separate male and female councils in villages, corruption of male magic users versus Aes Sedai), but it never sat well with me. I do want to add I have a great respect for Jordan's work; just subjecting him to the same scrutiny we are doing to GRRM.

9 hours ago, zandru said:

Chataya.

Care to elaborate for the sake of opening the discussion? Chataya is a very interesting person to bring to the forefront.

9 hours ago, zandru said:

"Gender identity" has nothing to do with Arya's story. She's a girl, she knows she's a girl, she's offended when people mistake her for a boy - but smart enough to keep quiet when she needs to stay below the radar.

You're absolutely right. I wasn't trying to suggest Arya has any gender identity issues. I merely brought up the possibility of gender identity crisis as a more interesting approach to the tried and true trope of "rebellious tomboy princess" (or in this case, highborn girl) that Arya essentially represents. There are a hundred Arya's (at least pre-Faceless Men) in fantasy fiction. She may be (in my unqualified opinion) the best developed and written version, but still a descendant of a long tradition of women depicted in fantasy fiction.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

As a person who has seen more years than most our valued colleagues here, the ASOIAF was a life changing thing.   As a parent, grandparent and great-grandparent I have earned the right to judge all the parents everywhere.  (No one has judged me harsher than I've judged myself.)  Cersei is a selfish prick and Cat is an unashamed moron groupie.   They both suck.    Sansa is a better mom and she's poisoning her charge. 

Hey, I'm glad to have a person of multi-generational seniority add their two cents!

Thought I'd go on a tangent and mention I'm born and raised in rural south Texas. Contrary to popular belief, Texas isn't considered "deep south" but Southern Hospitality (aka, good ol' fashioned guest right) and Southern Values (for better or worse) certainly are things out here. I was raised to take my hat off, line dance, open the door for ladies and my elders, and make bereavement casseroles for neighbors. Now I don't wear hats, hold the door open for everyone, prefer a nice waltz, and make Tex Mex dishes for the bereaved. But the sentiments are the same.

You cracked me up with your comment about Sansa. Zing! I disagree about Catelyn but that's a whole different conversation that's hacked to death in other topics.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There are many characters you did not mention, @Traverys'as they are only minor players.   Still I found an astonishingly realistic and heart wrenching portrayal of a real woman.   Women I have known.  As seen through Jamie's eyes:

Ugh... Pia. Breaks my heart every time I read her story in Jaime's chapters. I didn't mean to be exclusionary, but a character like Pia is different from the major female characters we experience as readers. This doesn't make them any less compelling or important, but it does make them a bit flat or static when compared to the dynamic representation we get through POV characters. But, like Chataya, Pia makes for an interesting discussion here. I'm glad you brought her up.

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I always thought that is was GRRM intention for it to be exactly that, Stockholm Syndrome. Has he ever addressed this in an interview or Q and A before I wonder?

I'm not sure but I can almost guarantee he says something like: "What do you think? I'm not here to tell the reader how to feel."

[Traverys]

17 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

It’s also over-sexualised how the female PoVs view their own bodies, it makes it seem like they’re all slightly narcisstic and sexually attracted to themselves. Especially in the Daenerys chapters I can feel the author’s sexual attraction to his character seeping into the writing which not only distracts from the prose but is also pretty disturbing considering her age. The sexualisation of Daenerys is my biggest criticism of the books as a whole tbh. 

I couldn't agree with this more, unfortunately. I mean... how many times do we have to read about sweat dripping between her breasts? It's probably dripping down her legs and back too? Or areas that we like to pretend we don't sweat.

It'd be interesting to tally how many times we have to read about her womanly parts compared to each other POV character individually. I don't recall reading about Eddard Starks man parts? We get a bit from Tyrion, but usually in the context of ravishing a (willing or unwilling) woman. We get a scene of Daenerys masturbating and subsequent female-with-female action but almost nothing about men having their own "special alone time." Seems a bit off, right? I'm not saying these things are necessary at all, but there is clearly a bias here in favor of detailing women and their bodies.

While the uh... Myrish Swamp scene could also be brought up here, I feel like it at least had some valuable character development for Cersei. She engages in what she perceives to be the position of a man and takes her "rights." Even more interesting is her decision to do as Robert Baratheon did: pretend it never happened. It's a contribution to the storyline of her becoming the very person she despised. Daenerys' female-on-female activity, in my opinion, was just completely gratuitous in comparison.

I find his inclusion of a woman's body clever at times. He has Sansa mention how her breasts are aching a chapter or so before her first menstrual cycle. I remember highlighting that and giving it a thumbs up.

I agree his sexual attraction to Daenerys seeps into the writing in an unsettling way. At least that's my perception. It's probably the reason I find her hard to read and take seriously... I don't see anything wrong with a person owning their sexuality and even using it to their advantage, but her chapters go well beyond this explanation...

[The Drunkard]

On 15/11/2017 at 5:28 PM, Traverys said:

6. Any other on topic point you want to touch on that you think/feel strongly about regarding the dynamic female representation in ASoIaF.

Bit surprised she hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think Melisandre is the most interesting female character and has the most interesting position of any woman in the series (amalgamation of second-in-command, mistress, queen and pope). She's a deeply religious person but it doesn't stand in the way of sense, her goals are noble but she's completely utilitarian in achieving them and won't shy away from brutality, she's perceived as an evil temptress but as far as she can be she's quite compassionate (even to people who do nothing but make her life difficult, e.g. Davos), and she's essentially Stannis' 2IC but is unconcerned with the power and the prestige insofar as they don't help the cause. I think she gets undue flak from people who judge her on the aesthetics of her magic and religion rather than what she's actually done or expressed a desire to do.

[867-5309]

17 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Daenerys is my favorite.  She's a larger than life character and that makes her very interesting to me.  She is god-like and not like the average girl.  She's who everyone would love to be.  Her story arc is so epic that she is not someone you relate with but love anyway.  

It's possible to relate to someone without having the same personality.  I can completely understand wanting to help the less fortunate and do it in a big way.  That's what makes her a hero.  She is the best written character in aSoIaF among the females and that is saying something  because the author has done an awesome job.  People, whether female or male, basically want the same things and where they differ is not due to gender.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

True, if Mace was really the dope she makes him out to be she and the rest of the family would never say it out loud and probably keep him occupied in Highgarden away from court.  Nonetheless it would be nice if we got some sort of Tyrell POV where we see an emotional Olenna tell Mace she's proud of him and loves him. 

That would be interesting indeed. I wanted a Tyrell POV since AFfC.

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I always thought that is was GRRM intention for it to be exactly that, Stockholm Syndrome. Has he ever addressed this in an interview or Q and A before I wonder?

I don't know, but the whole dragon dream thing resulting in 'getting over' the daily rape and suddenly taking charge not only of her sexuality but of her role as khaleesi, too, strongly indicates that it is not supposed to be the Stockholm Syndrome. George portrays a forced marriage involving a child and subsequent marital rape as means to give his female lead character the means for character growth, finding her own voice, emancipating herself from Viserys, becoming the real dragon, etc.

That is simply not a realistic or 'positive' scenario.

As to George's obsession with Daenerys: Read 'The Glass Flower' for that. He really has a thing for women with silver-gold hair and purple eyes.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

Well, GRRM covers his tracks with Ygritte by making that interesting tradition of widling men "stealing" wildling women and thus making them wives. It's an interesting concept considering a woman could geld or kill a man they found unworthy. A woman like Ygritte wouldn't have any problem doing that. But I agree the relationship was a little too... convenient? Flat?

If we had Ygritte ending up in 'Jon's possession' as per the fact that he spared her life it could have been more interesting. But then, that's not what happens. Ygritte has the hots for Jon from the start, and there is no explanation for this. She conveniently has no husband or boyfriend, nor is she in love with somebody else. She is the one who pushes Rattleshirt to spare Jon's life and accept him, etc. 

And he is apparently so handsome and hot that she can only think with her clitoris, continuously forcing herself on him and essentially blackmailing him into having sex with him. In a sense, Ygritte is the Drogo of Jon's story. Jon very much grows to like being raped by Ygritte, but the fact that he has no way to reject her after Ygritte lies to Mance to protect him is never brought up as a problem.

The idea that a (reasonably) attractive young woman gets the hots of you essentially forces you into a sexual relationship with you without you having to do anything to establish that relationship is essentially a male fantasy. It is the kind of thing I'd have liked, too, back during adolescence and early adulthood, since I'm not exactly the most out-going person on the planet.

But it isn't a very realistic setting. Ygritte has no character trait aside from having the hots for Jon.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

Someone a while back posted about how GRRM is fixated on incest and that Ygritte is just a homunculus of Sansa and Arya (tomboy with red hair, essentially). I of course shook my fist and argued against these notions... but the Arya + Sansa = Ygritte notion always stuck with me. Sure, Sansa's hair is auburn, and the majority of us assume Jon is only their cousin... But  I feel like, for good or ill, there's something to be taken seriously about it. Or some foreshadowing, at least.

I don't think that is all that important. Jon never makes an Ygritte-Sansa connection, and unlike Sansa Ygritte has real red hair, not just auburn hair. The parallel to Arya is clearly there, but pretty much anyone knowing Arya would be reminded of her when he got to know Ygritte, or a woman like her.

Jon would most likely also be reminded of Arya if he had to hang out with Chella or Harma.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

Another thing I hesitate to mention is that Tyrion clearly came from money. A commoner put into a situation to be romantically involved with a high lord/lady of means has to play into the romantic attraction. How could it not? Food, roof over head, security, etc. We see the negative side of this most strongly with Shae. It's probably a rarely explored topic: Tyrion may have inflated his "true love" with Tysha. Not as popular as extrapolating the nuances of his relationship with Shae... Not saying Tysha wasn't a lovely person who may have loved him for the nice guy we as readers know he is (was?)... but financial security would realistically be a tally in favor of her affections for him. A dangerous miscalculation on both their parts. Through her story we get to see the dark side of how the highborn can scrub away nuisances like a common girl that win the affections of a highborn son.

You are right there, of course. What makes Tysha a trophy woman with no agenda or character of her own is the fact that she was apparently genuinely in love with Tyrion. And that is very hard to swallow. It makes for an interesting plot, of course, but it is not exactly the realistic depiction of a woman.

And if the whore in Braavos is actually Tysha then her whole wedding ritual strongly implies she once was in love with Tyrion.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

It's always a hard thing to remember that GRRM is a continuously evolving writer than the legend I think of in my mind. As man interested in the company of men, I haven't been offended by his portrayal/inclusion of gay men at all. It was refreshing, to say the least. Lyn Corbray may be the exception because of the inaccurate pairing of homosexuality with pedophilia, but we don't really know that's the case. "Boys" could indicate teens or just pretty men. I just applaud him for even trying and opening that door. It's certainly less offensive than Baron Vladimir Harkonnen in the Dune series.

I'm not sure Corbray is supposed to be a pedophile. Real pedophiles are exclusively attracted to pre-adolescent children and are, in that sense, different from other people. There is as of yet no hint that Corbray's boys are pre-teens. Corbray seems to be a man with a very warped sexuality who isn't exactly interested in a long-term relationship. It is quite likely he has very strange sexual preferences, possibly involving sadistic games and the like, that cause him to need a constant supply of boys.

Else he would most likely be content with having a couple of lovers he could find all by himself.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

I would have loved to see how Renly and Margaery would have plotted to make their marriage work (producing heirs, etc.), but of course that plot was cut short.

George didn't portray the Loras-Renly thing in detail but it is quite clear that the love was deep and real, at least on Loras' part.

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

Could you elaborate on the problematic nature of Sansa-Sandor? I think there's an interesting discussion there but don't want to put words in your mouth. Curious about your thoughts on its problematic nature.

On the one hand it is the age gap. I'm not in favor of murderers with violent issues and drinking habits (Sandor is almost always drunk when he talks with Sansa) hitting on 11-year-old girls.

But that aside, the real issue is the fact that Sandor is a Lannister crony, effectively one of Sansa's gaolers after he helps to put down Ned's men (which also makes him one of the people guilty of the Stark downfall and the situation Sansa is in afterwards). He is the nicest of those gaolers and can use the fact that he doesn't beat her, saves her life from the mob, helps her play nice around Joffrey, etc. to establish a connection with her.

We don't know whether he manipulates her deliberately in that way - I don't think he does - but it is the bad circumstances Sansa finds herself in (also thanks to Sandor's own actions) that allow them to make a connection. And that's just wrong and unhealthy.

It is a milder variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Proper love stories develop naturally when the people involved have both agency and a similar amount of power. When they are free to choose and are not under the constant threat of violence and abuse.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, Serafina said:

Shae is a mockery of a sex worker that could only be written by a man... 

Period wise, Sansa and Catelyn are absolutely accurate as the first daughters in a high-born and high profile family, and it really hurts to see people bashing them for this. 

 Catelyn's chapters demonstrate her diplomacy insights and that she was as good a political adviser as any of Robb's bannermen, 

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

 

20 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

The sexualisation of Daenerys is my biggest criticism of the books as a whole tbh.

First, I don't understand why my two quotes are sticking together. So to start off, I am responding to Serafina. Firstly, I loved a lot of what you said, especially the parts on Catelyn, which is why I quoted them. Secondly, just wondering, do you know any sex workers? I am not denying some of what you said, and even agree with some of it. I just wondered your reasoning on why someone like Shae could not exist. I have friends who are sex workers, and they have customers who they eventually have developed relationships with that look a lot like Shae/Tyrion. Now, of course, they are not undeveloped book characters, so they have a lot more to them, but to be honest, I could see how their cutomors may view them the same way Tyrion viewed Shae. Now, some of my friends are more like show Shae, but I also have at least few friends I think were somewhat similar to book Shae. I was not their customer/date, so I saw them from a different perspective, but we never get a different perspective on Shae other than Tyrion's. Since I feel like everyone will be wondering why I have so many friends who are involved in sex work...I had several ex-dates/girlfriends who were transgender. They all had friends in sex work, some by choice and some by circumstances. Unlike perhaps some men, I simply viewed them as people and befriended them as well. As well, I have occassionally befriended people who happen to be sex workers while traveling, usually beginning with me politely declining interest in their sevices, followed by offering my friendship. Most are not interested (because they have to work), but some are. I like to think I am just an open person willing to be friends with anyone, ESPECIALLY while traveling. I love to meet new people^^. 

To answer your final question, and to be honest, the reason I decided to even respond (I at first just wanted to read women's opinions and learn from them), I actually relate to the female characters more than the male ones, and usually do in pretty much every form of media. As several other men have mentioned, I have more female friends than male ones. I simply find women easier to get along with than men, and don't relate to them, especially to the hyper masculated Americanesque image of male-hood. Catelyn Tully is my favorite character, and that would be mostly because she was the most relatable character early on in the books for me. Her relationship with Eddard is by far the most similar to the relationship I have with my partner. Their love is born out of partnership, friendship, and trust (despite Eddard badly damaging that trust because of a certain promise), and not the popular eros-filled honeymoon like lust love that Hollywood normally craps out. Although I am not a parent yet, she also reminds me of my mother who I try to emulate as much as possible (and will do even more when I become a father). Although for some unforseen reason (cough...sexism..cough), fans seem to deem her as somehow being a bad mother, literally everything she does, politically or otherwise, is for her family. Her strength while staying in a role women are allowed may never be something I experience, but it is one that I admire. However, Catelyn is not the character I relate to the most. That would be Brienne. I relate to her because she is feels constantly as though she does not fit in. Not only that, but her choice to take on a role usually occupied by men, brings back my own experience as I repeatedly have put myself in roles normally occupied by women. In a way we are opposites, but in other ways, I see many parallels in my life similar to what she experiences. People constantly deeming her as a freak and demeaning her. One commenter on here mentioned she is unrealistic because she does it alone, but that is exactly how I feel. I don't have a group of male friends who think like me. Often times I don't fit in with either women (I am not accepted into their group simply because I am not female and quite frankly, they understandably don't trust my motives) or men. I teach kindergarten, and am pretty much always excluded by the other teachers. They are always kind to me as coworkers, but they don't invite me to join them outside of work. I also relate to Sansa, as I grew up with childish fantasies of love. I wanted a princess to come save me and sweep me off my feet. (You will have to grant me that I simply didn't care about gender roles when I fantasized, nor do I currently, but I was forced to conform at the age I imagined these things).

Now, as to Jahaerys Tyrell, I also agreed with a lot of what you said, but especially this quote! I agreed with everyone about the fact I think GRRM might be attracted to Daenerys, and I just don't think any human beings think as much as she does about her body. Way to many scenes describing the sweat on her breasts or whatever. How she is described really distracts from her narrative. I try to  basically ignore it and focus on what else is happening, as I like Daenerys, but don't need to hear about her breasts that much, especially as it just doesn't seem like how people anyone would think about themselves. 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

GRRM is a good character writer, so his female characters are pretty great overall. But I have to concur with other posters in this thread about the voyeuristic aspects in the POVs of female characters who are sexual. Just like every other male writer, GRRM can't help but focus on breasts breasts breasts. I swear, if I ever write a book, I'm going have a male MC and he's going to think about his balls every second page. Also, his idea of what women find attractive is clearly based on his idea of an ideal man.

This is probably an uncommon opinion, but I don't have a problem with Dany loving Drogo, and I don't consider their sex, even after the first time, to be rape. I think people think it is because it's unpleasant and hurts her, but that alone doesn't imply non-consent. It's also a very limited view of what rape is "supposed" to look like. As for their relationship, Dany fell in love with Drogo because he was kind to her and respected her. Their relationship was problematic because of the vast power imbalance in the beginning, but I don't doubt that Dany's feelings for Drogo were genuine. That said, I'm not fond of "woman gains power through sexuality" storylines.

[Serafina]

15 hours ago, zandru said:

That's an epithet used pretty much exclusively by the US nazi-wannabes. It's just one of those generic insults, having no real meaning.

I don't live in the US so I was not aware of this, thanks for the heads-up and my apologies for the ill-fitting term.

 

17 hours ago, Traverys said:

Sure! What I meant by that is that Sansa (and even Catelyn) is a highly unpopular character in the fandom. It's not hard to blame people because Sansa starts out as a "nasty little shit" considering vanity and her entitlement as the daughter of a high lord, bride to the heir apparent to the Seven Kingdoms, and a beauty. I personally have never held this against her... This is a dream come true for a highborn girl... she'll achieve the highest status and prestige a woman can when her husband becomes king. But many criticize her for being... well, a very young highborn girl. There's no reference point in fantasy fiction to connect her to. An actual highborn lady behaving like ladies were expected to. Fantasy typically creates female characters that are rebelling princesses or tomboys and that is considered an interesting female character. Sansa is not part of these stereotypical fantasy tropes, and thus is unfamiliar territory for many longtime fantasy readers.

That's all my statement meant regarding Sansa as a stereotypical girl for the time period. We know now she has so much more potential to be more than that, but there are also critics that shoot down this idea she will rise to the occasion. Where is the proof? But that's a conversation for a different topic.

Thanks for your clarification (and the ones below that I didn't quote here). I totally agree with you ! I always thought Sansa and Malta Vestrit in Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders were similar in many aspects. At the beginning of the books, Malta is a selfish and entitled teenage girl but she soon has to overcome excruciating experiences and over the span of two years (or three maybe ?) she becomes a brave, resourceful and compassionate young woman who stands up for herself and others. It is one of the finest female character development I have ever read and I think we have many reasons to believe Sansa's will follow the same path.

 

17 hours ago, Traverys said:

Yesssss. Mormont women are my heroes. I think the fact that Maege's children's father(s) remain ambiguous is a really powerful message. It begs to question the line of succession they insisted on back in the Middle Ages and before (and beyond)... Men were always so concerned that the children their wife bore were their own... They'd even lock women away to be their breed-mare to ensure legitimate children.

But a woman always knows a child they are carrying is their own. Maege knows her daughter are her own. So what is the most efficient method of tracing bloodlines? Matrilineal.

PREACH. I didn't dive much into it so I don't scare people around here but I am half-convinced Maege got fed up with her brothers' bullshit and set up a full matriarcal fiefdom in Bear Island.

[Serafina]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Secondly, just wondering, do you know any sex workers? I am not denying some of what you said, and even agree with some of it. I just wondered your reasoning on why someone like Shae could not exist. I have friends who are sex workers, and they have customers who they eventually have developed relationships with that look a lot like Shae/Tyrion. Now, of course, they are not undeveloped book characters, so they have a lot more to them, but to be honest, I could see how their cutomors may view them the same way Tyrion viewed Shae. Now, some of my friends are more like show Shae, but I also have at least few friends I think were somewhat similar to book Shae. I was not their customer/date, so I saw them from a different perspective, but we never get a different perspective on Shae other than Tyrion's. 

To clarify, I was not criticizing Shae/Tyrion relationship but Shae character's lack of depth. I agree we only see her through Tyrion POV but we see her a lot over the span of three books and we even have glimpses of her through Sansa's POV. We also see Ygritte, Val, Osha, etc., only from a male character's POV, yet we get a sense that they have an inner life, friends, and free will. If I was asked how to describe Shae's character, I could only say that she is pretty and she likes nice things... This not ok for a character we see in three books and in almost every Tyrion's chapters, she deserves better. Proof of that being the dumb showrunners managed to give Show Shae a fully developed personality.

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, Serafina said:

To clarify, I was not criticizing Shae/Tyrion relationship but Shae character's lack of depth. I agree we only see her through Tyrion POV but we see her a lot over the span of three books and we even have glimpses of her through Sansa's POV. We also see Ygritte, Val, Osha, etc., only from a male character's POV, yet we get a sense that they have an inner life, friends, and free will. If I was asked how to describe Shae's character, I could only say that she is pretty and she likes nice things... This not ok for a character we see in three books and in almost every Tyrion's chapters, she deserves better. Proof of that being the dumb showrunners managed to give Show Shae a fully developed personality.

 

Fair enough and well said. Yes, I agree with you, he should have given Shae more depth. She is far from the only character I want this from, say the entire Dothraki race. Or the Mereenese. Giving someone like Jhogo or Irri who have been in 4 out of the 5 books more depth could really make the Dothraki society more real. My partner pointed out just recently that Irri and Jhiqui seem like scenery almost. Also, although I like Shae more in the show than the book, I like book Shae more in that it exposes Tyrion. She clearly doesn't love him, but he sees what he wants to see. And in the scene where she dies, in the show she attacks Tyrion. It can almost be seem as self defense on Tyrion's behalf. Not so much in the book. However, I agree whole heartedly I would have preferred her to have a lot more depth. In fact, Shae and that whole storyline is one of the reasons I don't like ACoK as much as some others do. He spends so much time on it but yet tells so little real information about her at all. Sorry for mistaking your point from before. I hope I didn't offend you at all. I guess I have seen all these sleezy guys around my friends, and Tyrion reminds me of them so much. (which is why I can imagine them seeing my friend how Tyrion sees Shae) Maybe if GRRM could just have someone call Tyrion out for the rapist/abuser he is...

[The Sunland Lord]

On 11/15/2017 at 2:31 PM, Serafina said:

It would be interesting if the forum male members answered this question as well, as we women learn from an early age to identify to male characters (because of the poor female representation in fiction) and I'm not sure it goes the other way round. So I'm curious to know if you feel any empathy with specific ASIOAF female characters and the reason why !

I for one am mostly empathethic towards Catelyn Stark.

If today are Catelyns on this world, I'd certainly want to meet some in real life.

I think that she is a very strong woman. Learned this through her POVs. Most of the time, she keeps her emotions and thoughts for herself, if she knows they won't do any good. And she spoke her mind when she felt she needed to.

I like adaptive people in general, and given the setting, her "must be a proper lady" way of being raised, and all the terrible things that happened to her literally from the first to last page she appeared in, gave all she could and kept her sanity and actions in check in moments when rarely who on this Earth would.

Her mistakes and flawes were understandable,  and not for a second I forget her resentment for Jon. And I don't blame her too much. Her position in the society didn't give her the opportunity to pack her bags and divorce Ned and tell him to wait to be contacted via lawyer. So she adapts. Accepts the boy's presence, but doesn't love him. Nothing against Jon, I like him, and yes, it's not his fault, but life sometimes sucks and has to do so. I wouldn't want my wife to come into my home with a child from another man. So why would I blame her?

I am not sure if anyone noticed, but the woman   needed a man desperately after Ned's death.  Somewhere in AGoT or A Clash, her thoughts were that she needed to be "comforted". I think that, in all honesty, the woman needed sexual relationship. The author used this term, "comforted", to fit her personality. Later though, when Robb tells her that Jeyne "comforted" him after capturing her castle, Catelyn knows exactly in what way the young girl comforted her son. This is the hint that made me sure of what I wrote for. 

But, Cat is a woman who doesn't even consider to act on this seriously, because of the setting and her being adaptive. Her husband died, there are more important things to be done, her family in danger all the time, so she doesn't do anything nice for herself.

Her ignorance of Bran and Rickon still being alive was just plainly sad. I feel sorry for her regarding this.

That's for Cat. I have my opinions on Sansa, Arya, Daenerys, Cersei, Asha Greyjoy, etc. also, but maybe another time. Catelyn inspired me the most for this thread.

[zandru]

7 hours ago, Traverys said:

It'd be interesting to tally how many times we have to read about her womanly parts compared to each other POV character individually. I don't recall reading about Eddard Starks man parts?

Not in detail, although GoT has the end of a sex scene with Catelyn. I think we hear entirely too much about Tyrion's man parts. Although that's pretty much where his entire life has focused, so there's that.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte has the hots for Jon from the start, and there is no explanation for this.

There never is. Seriously, have you never fallen for someone? I disagree with your assessment of Ygritte entirely. She illustrates how very different women of the free folk are from what Jon is accustomed to. Direct. Assertive. Knowing what she wants. And where was Jon "raped"? He was "wet and ready" as any young wife.

I also disagree with the common assessment that Khal Drogo "raped" Daenerys on their wedding night and thereafter. George RR takes great pains to describe the drawn out, surprisingly gentle mutual disrobement they went through, the (literal) letting the hair down, the expert touches, to where Daenerys finds herself saying "Yes!" It described Drogo as gradually winning her trust and her consent - not "raping" her. And the nights thereafter as being painful - remember, Dany was (in this case literally) still "a young girl" and Drogo was, well, big as a horse.  Stockholm Syndrome, my arse. If Dany was stockholmed, or battered-wifed, where would she have gotten the assertiveness and strength that she displayed to her brother, to Drogo himself, to his bloodriders? How would she have been able to step into command (dragons or not) after his death? You may be projecting too much 21st c as opposed to actually reading the text.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know whether he manipulates her deliberately in that way - I don't think he does - but it is the bad circumstances Sansa finds herself in (also thanks to Sandor's own actions) that allow them to make a connection. And that's just wrong and unhealthy.

It is a milder variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.

I think this is a good catch! Much has been made about "SanSan" and I really, REALLY don't want to start it up again, as everything that could ever be said has been, repeatedly... but it seems to me that there's a lot less to Sansa's apparent obsession in comparing every man to The Hound than "true love." I'd go with Stockholm. It might even fit in with her tendency to edit her memories into more of a "romantic song" format with herself as the beautiful princess.

[Jon Fossoway]

4 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I am not sure if anyone noticed, but the woman   needed a man desperately after Ned's death.  Somewhere in AGoT or A Clash, her thoughts were that she needed to be "comforted". I think that, in all honesty, the woman needed sexual relationship. The author used this term, "comforted", to fit her personality. Later though, when Robb tells her that Jeyne "comforted" him after capturing her castle, Catelyn knows exactly in what way the young girl comforted her son. This is the hint that made me sure of what I wrote for. 

Fair point- 

My two reads gave me no impression of Catelyn being sexual in any way. She fits the stereotype of a mother, and her family upholds those values. I remember that snip of the text, but I took it as a son being a little reserve before his mother about sexual affairs. Hell, even I wouldn't say to my mother 'yes, I had sex with that woman by mistake'. Cat, for me, is as stereotyped as Areo Hotah. Both characters that depicts roles.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I am not sure if anyone noticed, but the woman   needed a man desperately after Ned's death.  Somewhere in AGoT or A Clash, her thoughts were that she needed to be "comforted".

"Comforted" means radically different things to women than it does to men. No, Catelyn was very unlikely to be longing for a cock up her cooch. More like a warm hug and cuddling.