Lord Varys Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: This is probably an uncommon opinion, but I don't have a problem with Dany loving Drogo, and I don't consider their sex, even after the first time, to be rape. I think people think it is because it's unpleasant and hurts her, but that alone doesn't imply non-consent. It's also a very limited view of what rape is "supposed" to look like. As for their relationship, Dany fell in love with Drogo because he was kind to her and respected her. Their relationship was problematic because of the vast power imbalance in the beginning, but I don't doubt that Dany's feelings for Drogo were genuine. That said, I'm not fond of "woman gains power through sexuality" storylines. A wet vagina isn't consent. Just as a hard penis isn't consent, either. Dany gives Drogo consent to continue but she never gave him consent to start the whole thing. Nor did she gave Viserys and Illyrio consent to marry her to that man. The fact that she ended up agreeing with the sex thing - and perhaps even enjoyed the first time under the stars - doesn't make it right. Especially since she is still a child at that time. Defending Dany's marriage to Drogo is defending sexual child abuse and child marriages. You can do that, of course, but I don't. The fact that this kind of thing happens in the books - and did happen in the real middle ages - doesn't make it right. There are many children in abusive relationships who genuinely love their abusers. And Drogo is one such. But that doesn't make it right. Martinworld doesn't know the crime of marital rape. Neither in Essos (as far as we know) nor in Westeros. If you are married to a man you have to pleasure him sexually in the manner he likes. In that sense Dany is raped within her marriage. And it is quite clear that this is the case while the daily sex with Drogo is hurting Daenerys. She doesn't have the opportunity or freedom to stop it, to say 'no'. What is that if it isn't marital rape? 28 minutes ago, zandru said: There never is. Seriously, have you never fallen for someone? I disagree with your assessment of Ygritte entirely. She illustrates how very different women of the free folk are from what Jon is accustomed to. Direct. Assertive. Knowing what she wants. And where was Jon "raped"? He was "wet and ready" as any young wife. I think you misunderstood my original point. It is a male fantasy that a (reasonably) attractive woman falls for a man without any good reason or without any sort of meaningful interaction. Jon has done nothing to deserve the kind of love/desire Ygritte feels for him. I'm not saying the romance shouldn't have happened, I just don't find it very believable. It is far too convenient for my taste (Dany-Daario work much better by comparison). A woman like Ygritte should have a boyfriend. And what on earth caused her to bind herself body and soul to a youth she barely knew, lying to Mance in the process of it? Stuff like that needs to be build up properly. Jon was raped because he had to have sex with Ygritte to save his life. She coerced him into doing that by lying to Mance and making it crystal clear to him that he would have to deliver now, or suffer the consequences. Now, as it turned out Jon ended up enjoying the sexual relationship he was forced to have, but that doesn't excuse Ygritte's behavior, does it? If I coerced or pushed a woman into having sex with me she might enjoy that, too, but that wouldn't justify my actions, no? 28 minutes ago, zandru said: I also disagree with the common assessment that Khal Drogo "raped" Daenerys on their wedding night and thereafter. George RR takes great pains to describe the drawn out, surprisingly gentle mutual disrobement they went through, the (literal) letting the hair down, the expert touches, to where Daenerys finds herself saying "Yes!" It described Drogo as gradually winning her trust and her consent - not "raping" her. The first night wouldn't be a cruel rape, but Drogo still forced Dany into a situation where she would, eventually, have to have sex with him. He used force to prevent her from covering her breasts, and then he used his considerable seduction techniques to persuade her into giving him consent. And we don't know whether Drogo would have cared if she had refused him in the end, do we? I doubt he would have cared. Daenerys was his wife now, and the marriage had to be consummated. Dany was supposed to give Khal Drogo sons. It wasn't as bad a rape as it could have been, but it is still a rape. If you had asked Daenerys Targaryen whether she wanted to be alone with that man - or whether she wanted to marry this savage barbarian in the first place - she would have said 'No!'. She actually tries to tell Viserys just that. And that is all we need to judge the situation. That she eventually ends up liking the man and that she ends up adapting to Dothraki culture is a completely separate issue. And by the way - Drogo never really respects Dany as a person. She is his little sex bunny. He finds her attractive and he likes the sex, but that's it. When Dany claims the Lhazareen as her slaves he doesn't attribute that to Dany's character or anything in her, he attributes it to the strength and willpower of the son he put in Dany's belly. And when the attempt is made on Dany Drogo doesn't want to sit Dany on her father's throne but his son by her. 28 minutes ago, zandru said: And the nights thereafter as being painful - remember, Dany was (in this case literally) still "a young girl" and Drogo was, well, big as a horse. Stockholm Syndrome, my arse. That is the point. I'd never have sex with a thirteen-year-old girl. Especially not if having sex with me would be painful to her. 28 minutes ago, zandru said: If Dany was stockholmed, or battered-wifed, where would she have gotten the assertiveness and strength that she displayed to her brother, to Drogo himself, to his bloodriders? How would she have been able to step into command (dragons or not) after his death? You may be projecting too much 21st c as opposed to actually reading the text. That is the part that doesn't make any sense in the Dany story there. The sad answer is that she would never have gotten all that assertiveness, etc. in a realistic scenario. Things get somewhat garbled/more complex due to Dany's supernatural destiny, the dragon dreams, the dragon eggs calling to her, etc. It is that magical aspect that helps her to cope with the situation, to become stronger, to master the fucked-up situation she finds herself in. 50 minutes ago, zandru said: I think this is a good catch! Much has been made about "SanSan" and I really, REALLY don't want to start it up again, as everything that could ever be said has been, repeatedly... but it seems to me that there's a lot less to Sansa's apparent obsession in comparing every man to The Hound than "true love." I'd go with Stockholm. It might even fit in with her tendency to edit her memories into more of a "romantic song" format with herself as the beautiful princess. We also have to consider that Sansa's sexuality and sexual preferences are still developing. Sandor was clearly shaping them. I see the whole 'imagined kiss' thing more as Sandor's image having influence on Sansa's erotic fantasies than as something that reflects her actual romantic preferences at that point. It could be a sign that she is 'in love' with Sandor, but it doesn't have to. Realistically, Sansa and Arya's future sexuality should be shaped in no small degree by the kind of things they lived through and witnessed. We'll have to wait and see if George delivers on that front. I could very much see Arya developing a taste for BDSM practices (assuming we ever get around to Arya sex/sexual fantasies) and Sansa could also end up liking it rough, and also having a thing for men like Sandor (i.e. well-muscled, strong, and dangerous). We have already seen that with Dany. Drogo setting the stage for her made her very much interested in strong and dangerous men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said: Fair point- My two reads gave me no impression of Catelyn being sexual in any way. She fits the stereotype of a mother, and her family upholds those values. I remember that snip of the text, but I took it as a son being a little reserve before his mother about sexual affairs. Hell, even I wouldn't say to my mother 'yes, I had sex with that woman by mistake'. Cat, for me, is as stereotyped as Areo Hotah. Both characters that depicts roles. Of course, Robb couldn't tell his mother the details. That was his take on it. But for Catelyn's inner thoughts, I found them connected to her previous wish to be comforted. Now, it's open for interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: That is the part that doesn't make any sense in the Dany story there. Well, I'm going to use this as a linchpin of my "agree to disagree". Daenerys undoubtedly used her experience as The Khaleesi to gain assertiveness and the ability to command, to become a dragon. If you think this was impossible on the grounds she was treated as property and abused, then I refer you to her chapters where she never once gives this impression. But - as you will! 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: I'd never have sex with a thirteen-year-old girl. Well, it would be illegal, probably a felony (unless you're Judge Roy Moore, in which case it could be considered a Biblican imperative.) But remember - this is Iron Age Essos. A girl of 13 is "a woman grown", as a boy of 16 is "a man grown." We are certainly entitled to disapprove and consider it disgusting, but for the time and place, it was totally normal. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It is a male fantasy that a (reasonably) attractive woman falls for a man without any good reason or without any sort of meaningful interaction. That doesn't mean that "reasonably attractive" women don't actually do this at times. Remember, Jon is not unattractive, and he fails to kill her, per his orders. That says something for the boy's character. A knife to the throat is definitely a "meaningful interaction". Probably more meaningful than a cup of coffee. The "male fantasy" part comes in when boorish, unattractive males who don't keep up their appearances expect beautiful women to fall onto their laps. This only happens in comedy. Or on a retail basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 1 hour ago, zandru said: Well, I'm going to use this as a linchpin of my "agree to disagree". Daenerys undoubtedly used her experience as The Khaleesi to gain assertiveness and the ability to command, to become a dragon. If you think this was impossible on the grounds she was treated as property and abused, then I refer you to her chapters where she never once gives this impression. But - as you will! Actually, it is her whole dragonlord heritage that helps her to control people. She is essentially nothing until she becomes the Mother of Dragons. The Dothraki leave, and only a handful remain. Prior to Drogo's death all her authority comes from Drogo. Without him, she is nothing. And she knows that. She doesn't even have the power to save her brother's life - not that she was particularly keen to do that, but it is quite clear that Viserys was dead from the moment he threatened Drogo's unborn child. 1 hour ago, zandru said: Well, it would be illegal, probably a felony (unless you're Judge Roy Moore, in which case it could be considered a Biblican imperative.) But remember - this is Iron Age Essos. A girl of 13 is "a woman grown", as a boy of 16 is "a man grown." We are certainly entitled to disapprove and consider it disgusting, but for the time and place, it was totally normal. I know that. But the point I'm making is that George invented this world. Nobody forced him to create a world where sex with 12-13-year-old girls is fine and okay. He chose to do that. I could also invent a world where sex with preteen girls in perfectly okay (or at least within the moral and legal framework of the story). But doing that would be pretty disgusting, no? George can't hide behind the rules he himself created. He could have created different rules. That also goes for the shitty patriarchal framework of Westeros. Nobody forced him to make women as powerless as he did. Perhaps he wants to change that with characters like Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Asha, etc. but as of yet that change has not yet been realized. 1 hour ago, zandru said: That doesn't mean that "reasonably attractive" women don't actually do this at times. Remember, Jon is not unattractive, and he fails to kill her, per his orders. That says something for the boy's character. A knife to the throat is definitely a "meaningful interaction". Probably more meaningful than a cup of coffee. Ygritte is 3-4 years older than Jon. She most definitely a woman already, and Jon is still visibly a boy. Is Ygritte into young and inexperienced men? I know that women do that at times. I just find it to be something that happens a lot to the lead male characters in most novels and movies. It is not realistic. Most men are not forced into sexual relationships by experienced - and exotic - women with strange customs. Nor are they hit at by women without giving the slightest indication that they are interested in them. Not killing a woman isn't a sign of romantic interest. Not to mention that by Ygritte's standards and values Jon should have revealed himself as a weakling and coward when he was incapable of killing her. This man would clearly not be capable to defend her - and their children against other (female) warriors, right? Thus we have to believe that Jon's pretty face and body were what caused Ygritte to fall for him - and that is both difficult to believe and a sign for a not exactly well-written character. At least insofar as her motivation is concerned. 1 hour ago, zandru said: The "male fantasy" part comes in when boorish, unattractive males who don't keep up their appearances expect beautiful women to fall onto their laps. This only happens in comedy. Or on a retail basis. No, it is a male fantasy that essentially happens in every action movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Actually, ... Well, we just see things differently. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong because you do make some reasonable points. I just don't agree with all of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 2 hours ago, zandru said: Well, I'm going to use this as a linchpin of my "agree to disagree". Daenerys undoubtedly used her experience as The Khaleesi to gain assertiveness and the ability to command, to become a dragon. If you think this was impossible on the grounds she was treated as property and abused, then I refer you to her chapters where she never once gives this impression. But - as you will! I think Dany definitely gives the impression that she was treated as property and abused. This is Dany's own recollection shortly after her marriage to Drogo. Quote Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night… To me this is pretty clearly Dany recalling being repeatedly raped and treated like property. 13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Ygritte is 3-4 years older than Jon. She most definitely a woman already, and Jon is still visibly a boy. Is Ygritte into young and inexperienced men? I know that women do that at times. I just find it to be something that happens a lot to the lead male characters in most novels and movies. It is not realistic. Most men are not forced into sexual relationships by experienced - and exotic - women with strange customs. Nor are they hit at by women without giving the slightest indication that they are interested in them. Not killing a woman isn't a sign of romantic interest. Not to mention that by Ygritte's standards and values Jon should have revealed himself as a weakling and coward when he was incapable of killing her. This man would clearly not be capable to defend her - and their children against other (female) warriors, right? Thus we have to believe that Jon's pretty face and body were what caused Ygritte to fall for him - and that is both difficult to believe and a sign for a not exactly well-written character. At least insofar as her motivation is concerned. No, it is a male fantasy that essentially happens in every action movie. I think we have to judge this through the lens of wildling culture, which can be pretty shitty. Jon has unwittingly stolen Ygritte by every iteration of the wildling practice- he has murdered her "kinsmen" and subdued her, "allowing" him to have sex with her. By Ygritte's standards Jon has simply stolen her exactly as is the prescribed custom of the wildlings. Now I do think for Ygritte Jon's "pretty face and body" is certainly an added bonus. I wouldn't say Jon shows no indication of interest in Ygritte- we are not given a current in the moment POV from Jon of his unintentional courtship of Ygritte, but rather past recollections of Jon finding her to be more attractive upon each interaction with her (i.e. such as her crooked teeth not bothering him anymore on account of her great smile and similar recollections.) I think it may be fair to assume that Jon has given off some visual cues to Ygritte that he is not entirely disinterested in her at the very least. All this being said, I certainly can agree that the situation in which Jon first sleeps with Ygritte is disturbing and rapey- essentially it's Ygritte lying to Mance for Jon to spare Jon's life and then blackmailing him into making that lie a truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Lord Varys said: A wet vagina isn't consent. Just as a hard penis isn't consent, either. Dany gives Drogo consent to continue but she never gave him consent to start the whole thing. Nor did she gave Viserys and Illyrio consent to marry her to that man. The fact that she ended up agreeing with the sex thing - and perhaps even enjoyed the first time under the stars - doesn't make it right. Especially since she is still a child at that time. Defending Dany's marriage to Drogo is defending sexual child abuse and child marriages. You can do that, of course, but I don't. The fact that this kind of thing happens in the books - and did happen in the real middle ages - doesn't make it right. There are many children in abusive relationships who genuinely love their abusers. And Drogo is one such. But that doesn't make it right. Martinworld doesn't know the crime of marital rape. Neither in Essos (as far as we know) nor in Westeros. If you are married to a man you have to pleasure him sexually in the manner he likes. In that sense Dany is raped within her marriage. And it is quite clear that this is the case while the daily sex with Drogo is hurting Daenerys. She doesn't have the opportunity or freedom to stop it, to say 'no'. What is that if it isn't marital rape? Who said anything about it being right? I'm not trying to romanticise a relationship between a 30 year old and a 13 year old. I said I found it problematic, especially because of how sexualised Dany is, but that doesn't mean Dany didn't genuinely love him, nor that she was wrong for loving him. Bodies responding positively isn't consent in itself, but Dany leading his finger to her vagina did strongly indicate consent. Well, as much consent you can give in an arranged marriage where you are expected to consummate your marriage on your wedding night, anyway. That was the whole point of Drogo asking her "no?", clunky as that scene was. It was clearly not in the same as, say, Tyrion raping Illyrio's slave. I mean, you can classify all sex that wasn't fully and undoubtedly consensual as rape if you want - and that's the definition I would use in real life cases - but I think that makes the term too broad, because of the extreme power imbalance for the different genders. You'd have to count all sex in arranged marriages as marital rape. And I don't consider their subsequent activities to be rape, either. Firstly, because it's out of character for Drogo to be asking consent the first time but then doesn't bother later on. But also because not enjoying sex or even painful sex isn't non-consent. I don't recall anything nothing to indicate she couldn't refuse sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 6 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Dany-Daario work much better by comparison True. Daario is different because Dany actually chose him. She was stuck with Viserys her whole life then Drogo and made the best of it. Even Jorah tries to move in and be that dominate male in her life after Drogo dies and she rejects him after he makes his unwanted advances. I felt like that was a big step for her character development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: True. Daario is different because Dany actually chose him. She was stuck with Viserys her whole life then Drogo and made the best of it. Even Jorah tries to move in and be that dominate male in her life after Drogo dies and she rejects him after he makes his unwanted advances. I felt like that was a big step for her character development. That's right. Although Jorah didn't push her too much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traverys Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 23 hours ago, The Drunkard said: Bit surprised she hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think Melisandre is the most interesting female character and has the most interesting position of any woman in the series (amalgamation of second-in-command, mistress, queen and pope). How have I forgot about Melisandre? I'm really glad you brought her up. She's one of those characters that is so firmly set in the realm of "gray" that I never feel comfortable commenting about her.. but I'll go ahead and at least try to add to the conversation you started. I'll admit that for a long time I was really biased against her (i.e.,"butt hurt," as they say) for the Renly assassination. After a while, I've grown up some and realized the flaws in Renly (that I didn't care to see before), and also realized that she as a character is really compelling. She's the "court wizard" with a huge, original, breath-of-fresh-air twist. I hear/see a lot of talk and criticism about Daenerys being or not being a feminist ideal (not that GRRM is required to even make such a character) because she's in the forefront. But Melisandre is a woman on a mission and she uses all of the tools on her tool belt to achieve what she believes to be the truth. What I mean by that is she's willing to use her sexuality, blood/shadow magic, illusions, and religion to her advantage... all for the sake of the mission she believes has been assigned to her. Regardless of her gender I find it admirable, and secretly hope that her influence is going to mean something because she's ruined a lot of lives on the path of doing what she perceives to be the "right thing." The hint/suggestion that she may be much older than she appears (and thus uses glamours to appear young and beautiful) adds an extra layer of depth that is so compelling and unexpected... at least to me. It would mean that rather than being some court floozy she's conniving and clever. She's certainly more interesting than some of her preceding literary counterparts, such as Gandalf. Thinking about her role in the overarching story to come (regardless of if it leads to good or ill) really gets me excited,. And this is from a guy who started out really, really hating her and what's she's done thus far. Perhaps my view of her is a controversial point of view that can be picked apart and criticized... but I've learned to admire her. For me, she's evolved from the stereotypical whispering seductress/mistress (of my initial impression) to a person that has strong religious convictions and willing to do what she needs to accomplish her goals. Love it or hate it, there's something to give a person pause and perhaps even some admiration. And, quite frankly, she's one of the few powerful people that is doing something about the war to come between the living and the dead. I still can't put my finger on all the specifics but I feel she's a departure from various expectations and/or conventions that I hold as a reader. 22 hours ago, Midnight Confession said: People, whether female or male, basically want the same things and where they differ is not due to gender. I agree with you fullheartedly. This topic is a bit of illusion... I personally don't believe that men and women are inherently different at all. But the world of ideas, desires, and thoughts can be tragically opposed to reality. Still today our cultures impose (antiquated) restrictions or expectations on people based on their gender. We see this addressed with how Jaime and Cersei were raised differently even though they appeared identical at a young age... so this isn't really a new notion. Still today, modern research shows that even today Western parents (and I'd find it hard to believe Eastern parents are an exception...) treat and raise girls and boys differently from infancy and beyond. I've witnessed it first hand with my young niece (6 years old) and nephew (1). We see these restrictions and rules illustrated so vividly in this series. Some people flourish in this environment, some fall flat on their faces. We could bring up Samwell Tarly as an example of a man who doesn't live up to gender expectations to compliment this thread. He has the makings of a brilliant scholar, but, among most highborn, men are judged on their martial prowess and other signs of "virility." 22 hours ago, Lord Varys said: but the fact that he has no way to reject her after Ygritte lies to Mance to protect him is never brought up as a problem. So true. There's a lot of labels and even outrage that would be thrown out if the genders were reversed in this specific situation. I've never thought of this, and I'm slapping my forehead because it certainly is a woman coercing a man into sex. Why is this more acceptable than the vice versa? Why didn't a red flag go off in my head? I imagine culture plays a huge part in this. It's why the concept of men being raped by women is still a controversial topic in modern courts. 22 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But it isn't a very realistic setting. Ygritte has no character trait aside from having the hots for Jon. I agree with this. Even most her dialogue is filled with her typical phrase ("You know nothin") rather than something that develops her further. It makes it clear she was designed to fill a role as a caricature rather than one of the more dynamic living/breathing characters GRRM is capable of creating. 22 hours ago, Lord Varys said: On the one hand it is the age gap. I'm not in favor of murderers with violent issues and drinking habits (Sandor is almost always drunk when he talks with Sansa) hitting on 11-year-old girls. Touche! And yeah, the age gap is a bit disconcerting, at best. It's interesting how we have a large number of older men pining for much younger (often barely or not physically matured) girls but not much of the vice versa. We get a bit of it from Cersei, but what she was really getting from Lancel was a toy that she could pretend was a young Jaime. It'd be interesting to find out Miranda Royce has a young "boy toy" on the side or something like that to balance out this stereotypical barely-physically-matured-female to much-older-male ratio. I don't consider this series erotic at all, but GRRM aims to defy expectations... so why not with highborn women and their own personal tastes? As a general disclaimer to everyone, I'm of course not promoting the sexualization of children. It makes for discomforting and tragic reads. But GRRM opened this door and it'd be interesting to see some balance. 22 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Often times I don't fit in with either women (I am not accepted into their group simply because I am not female and quite frankly, they understandably don't trust my motives) or men. I teach kindergarten, and am pretty much always excluded by the other teachers. They are always kind to me as coworkers, but they don't invite me to join them outside of work. I found your post to be really interesting and hope everyone takes the time to read how you relate to all these female characters. Even though this is completely a tangent, what I quoted really caught my eye because I'm also a male with degrees in education and always felt like an outsider in schools. I was on the SPED testing side of things (School Psychology), but even there the suspicion and unequal treatment is palpable. During my training in a PhD program I was testing a kid to see if he qualified for SPED services and a teacher burst into the testing room as if she expected to find something unspeakable happening. Then it happened multiple other times. I ultimately ended up choosing a different career path because I just couldn't see myself having to deal with that kind of unequally distributed scrutiny every day. In the media today we see a number of women engaging in unsavory relationships with underage children, but the female peers in my cohort never experienced the same discrimination. It was bothersome, to say the least. The point of my reply is there is certainly areas of gender discrimination on both sides of the equation. I'm sure you get a lot of that as a Kinder teacher. Men in education doesn't sit well with modern people for some reason... which is odd to think about because a few decades ago only men were allowed to be teachers (or have a non-inherited income in general). It's reminds me of how long hair is considered an unusual thing for a man today when it was the normal a couple of centuries ago. But, like I said, this reply was completely tangential and just me reaching out to you as a kindred spirit. 21 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: GRRM is a good character writer, so his female characters are pretty great overall. But I have to concur with other posters in this thread about the voyeuristic aspects in the POVs of female characters who are sexual. Just like every other male writer, GRRM can't help but focus on breasts breasts breasts. Haha! Let's not forget about Arianne Martell's magic nipples. It's telling when many readers remember that as a key description of her physical appearance. What's your perceptions/opinions about how female writers approach these kind of sexual topics and imagery in fiction? If you don't mind me asking. Do you feel there is more balance? Do they, in turn, focus on men in a similarly voyeuristic way? Just trying to open up the discussion. 21 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: I swear, if I ever write a book, I'm going have a male MC and he's going to think about his balls every second page. Yeah this is kind of what I was getting at in a previous post. We read about sweat dripping between Daenery's breasts more often than not, but not sweat dripping down Eddard's er... scrotum (trying to keep it classy here, guys) when he arrives in King's Landing. So what's the message being delivered to us about women and their bodies compared to men? I have no answer for this but it's an unsettling aspect of the series for me. As another general disclaimer, I still admire GRRM (or I wouldn't be on this forum). But if we talk about things like this maybe writers of the future can be more mindful of these kinds of things. 21 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Also, his idea of what women find attractive is clearly based on his idea of an ideal man. Elaborate! If you don't mind. What are some of the things that you find inaccurate about his writing in this regard? 20 hours ago, Serafina said: I don't live in the US so I was not aware of this, thanks for the heads-up and my apologies for the ill-fitting term. I wouldn't take that response as a fact... I didn't really know where they were coming with the Nazi references and such... It didn't seem like an ill-fitting term to me and I'm in the US. Labels always come with their criticisms, but I think "special snowflake" is a clever term. All snowflakes are original and unique, right? So a special snowflake is a way of saying that a person/character someone with exaggerated uniqueness or exceptionalism, perhaps even to the degree of being unrelatable. I'm no authority, but that was all I thought about it when you used the term. 20 hours ago, Serafina said: Thanks for your clarification (and the ones below that I didn't quote here). More than happy to clarify what I meant. 20 hours ago, Serafina said: PREACH. I didn't dive much into it so I don't scare people around here but I am half-convinced Maege got fed up with her brothers' bullshit and set up a full matriarcal fiefdom in Bear Island. Haha, yeah. Maege is great. It's exciting to think she's still alive and has a part to play. Hopefully we can get more insight into the life of Mormont women before the series is over. 17 hours ago, zandru said: Not in detail, although GoT has the end of a sex scene with Catelyn. I think we hear entirely too much about Tyrion's man parts. Although that's pretty much where his entire life has focused, so there's that Haha, so true! It's interesting to think that we get more info about a dwarf's sexuality and parts than the allegedly attractive and virile Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. My opinion is that Tyrion's sexuality is used as more of a spectacle than a demonstration of male sexuality. There are certainly scenes used to drive home the idea that he is deeply insecure about his "deformity" and that he's really, deep down inside, trying to find unconditional love. But there are also quite a few scenes that are gratuitous. Often with Shae. Using Tyrion as a vehicle for male-perspective sex scenes is like the common method in porn of using unattractive or overweight/flabby male actors to have sex with beautiful, voluptuous and fit women who would likely otherwise not be interested in these men at all. These men are not intimidating to the male viewer. That's always been my perception about Tyron's sex-laden sex scenes, at least. I like that GRRM depicts sex in the variety of ways it ends up in real life... some scenes are awkward, some romantic, some terrifying or vile, and some so ambiguous you don't even know what to think. It always seemed pretty accurate to me in the sense that it provides a range. 12 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I know that. But the point I'm making is that George invented this world. Nobody forced him to create a world where sex with 12-13-year-old girls is fine and okay. He chose to do that. It's also really hard to find much historical evidence about women being married off at 12 and 13 and having children. The only prominent example I could ever find was Margaret Beaufort, mother of Edward IV. The church had doctrine that listed appropriate betrothal, marriage, and consent ages for sons and daughters (which was quite young), but also had endorsed works that promoted women wait until mid to late teens before having children for health reasons (much like maesters do in-text). But child marriage remains some kind of "truism" when referring back to these eras without a whole lot of evidence to support this commonly believed idea. Sometimes I wonder if it's like the satanic cult craze of the 80s and 90s where there was virtually no examples of such a thing but everyone believed it anyways. It's interesting that GRRM even has the maesters recommend, for the health of the mother and child, that women be older and more developed before being expected to carry heirs... because in practice this hardly seems to be the case in the world he's crafted. An explanation could be that at times of war alliances have to be made and the age of children you use to broker these alliances becomes irrelevant. And also he's deliberately made a crap-sack world and child marriage adds to the drama... but that's far less interesting to scrutinize. (I realize the fallacy of this argument) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 13 hours ago, Tagganaro said: I think we have to judge this through the lens of wildling culture, which can be pretty shitty. Jon has unwittingly stolen Ygritte by every iteration of the wildling practice- he has murdered her "kinsmen" and subdued her, "allowing" him to have sex with her. By Ygritte's standards Jon has simply stolen her exactly as is the prescribed custom of the wildlings. I really don't think we can it spin that way. This stealing thing is an intentional act. The idea that Ygritte is so stupid/blind that she doesn't understand that Jon had no intention of stealing makes no sense. In addition, he sent her away when he was supposed to kill her. Even if he 'stole her' when he overpowered then he surely gave her up when he allowed her to go. [And quite frankly, Qhorin and buddies allowing him to do this makes absolutely no sense at that point in the story unless we assume they were trying to prepare Jon to become their mole even at that point. Which makes little sense in light of the fact that they are not yet discovered by the wildlings.] 13 hours ago, Tagganaro said: Now I do think for Ygritte Jon's "pretty face and body" is certainly an added bonus. I wouldn't say Jon shows no indication of interest in Ygritte- we are not given a current in the moment POV from Jon of his unintentional courtship of Ygritte, but rather past recollections of Jon finding her to be more attractive upon each interaction with her (i.e. such as her crooked teeth not bothering him anymore on account of her great smile and similar recollections.) I think it may be fair to assume that Jon has given off some visual cues to Ygritte that he is not entirely disinterested in her at the very least. He still made it perfectly clear to her that he didn't want to have sex with her, no? I mean, can it be more explicit than putting the direwolf between the two of them? It is Ygritte who constantly harasses Jon, not the other way around. She shows up at his side when they are making camp, hangs out with him, etc. Jon doesn't know anyone in the wildling camp aside from Ygritte and Rattleshirt's gang who captured him. He is completely at her mercy. 13 hours ago, Tagganaro said: All this being said, I certainly can agree that the situation in which Jon first sleeps with Ygritte is disturbing and rapey- essentially it's Ygritte lying to Mance for Jon to spare Jon's life and then blackmailing him into making that lie a truth. It is. It is only not often recognized as such because Jon is our hero and finally gets laid for the first time. It would have been much more interesting if Ygritte hadn't been that attractive - or rather, if Jon hadn't liked her all that much. Then it could have taken awhile before the hormones had kicked in and made him love her. If you have constant sex (and that is not completely disgusting or painful) with somebody for a longer period of time you really get fond of them, whether you want it or not. But it is there - we see this when Jon suddenly realizes he doesn't care all that much about Ygritte's crooked teeth, etc. That indicates he wouldn't have looked at her a second time if he had had a choice. 11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Who said anything about it being right? I'm not trying to romanticise a relationship between a 30 year old and a 13 year old. I said I found it problematic, especially because of how sexualised Dany is, but that doesn't mean Dany didn't genuinely love him, nor that she was wrong for loving him. Nobody blames Dany as a person or character - the problem is the situation the author puts her in. We are talking not so much about the characters here but the way the author chose them to be depicted. I've talked to women who find the entire Dany plot beginning in AGoT horrible and refused to continue to read the book after that. And I can completely understand that. 11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Bodies responding positively isn't consent in itself, but Dany leading his finger to her vagina did strongly indicate consent. It does, at that point. It is consent to being fingered by him. Not necessarily to being fucked by him. We never learned what happened afterwards. Perhaps they didn't have vaginal intercourse thereafter, perhaps it was much more pleasant than because Dany's vagina was wet and relaxed enough to not feel a lot of pain? We don't know. But the point about consent is that being okay with sexual act A doesn't necessarily mean you also want to do sexual act B. Nor does it mean that the man - usually the active part in sexual activities - can continue the sexual activity he does until he has gotten what he wants, right? If sex is painful for your partner you stop it immediately (unless we are in a BDSM game and the pain is part of the pleasure, and nobody said the safe word, etc.). But aside from all that, @Tagganaro quoted the entire AGoT passage above that makes it clear that Drogo raped Daenerys in the nights following their wedding night. I repeat it here: Quote Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night… We do not know whether Dany asked Drogo to stop/leave her alone, or whether she was simply too afraid to ask. It is pretty obvious that she was in pain and was not enjoying the things Drogo did to her. And Drogo obviously did not care. She was on the verge of committing suicide. If that's your image of a happy marriage with consensual sex I don't know what your image of the opposite is. 11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: Well, as much consent you can give in an arranged marriage where you are expected to consummate your marriage on your wedding night, anyway. That was the whole point of Drogo asking her "no?", clunky as that scene was. It was clearly not in the same as, say, Tyrion raping Illyrio's slave. Sure, it isn't the same. It was a nice rape. Or a nice night of forced sex involving a 13-year-old if you like that phrase better. But the fact that it could have been worse doesn't make it better. 11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: I mean, you can classify all sex that wasn't fully and undoubtedly consensual as rape if you want - and that's the definition I would use in real life cases - but I think that makes the term too broad, because of the extreme power imbalance for the different genders. You'd have to count all sex in arranged marriages as marital rape. I actually do just that. Jon Arryn fucking a woman as uninterested in him as Lysa Arryn is rape. Vice versa, Stannis definitely has to be pitied to be forced to have sex with Selyse. He was still the active part in all that, but the twisted nature of arranged marriages forces you to actually have sex with people you despise. Selyse doesn't seem to despise Stannis, so she was perhaps happy in all that. Imagine yourself being forced into a marriage with a person you don't want to have sex with - you don't have to be abhorred by them, you just don't want to have sex with them - and living in a society where this spouse of yours which you didn't choose nor could reject can force you to have sex with him or her whenever they like. That is rape, by our standards. Not every husband enforces this kind of thing - or can bring himself to sleep with the wife he can't stand - which is the reason why many of those arranged marriages remain childless. Tyrion was also about to rape Sansa until he gave her permission to make her own choice. Prior to that she did everything he asked of her despite the fact that she visibly despising him and hating the entire situation. And again - we have to ask our good author why he invented a world where there is so much gender inequality. Nobody forced him to do that. It is true that he can give some women a place in the sun even in that setting, but it didn't have to be this bad, did it? 11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said: And I don't consider their subsequent activities to be rape, either. Firstly, because it's out of character for Drogo to be asking consent the first time but then doesn't bother later on. But also because not enjoying sex or even painful sex isn't non-consent. I don't recall anything nothing to indicate she couldn't refuse sex. See above. Either she was too afraid to ask Drogo to leave her alone or she did and he didn't care. Drogo most definitely must have seen she didn't enjoy the ordeal he put her through - but he didn't care. He only began to care about her when she became this super sexual male fantasy. The experienced child whore who rode him in the open. That is Dany becoming Drogo's sex bunny fantasy. 11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: True. Daario is different because Dany actually chose him. She was stuck with Viserys her whole life then Drogo and made the best of it. Even Jorah tries to move in and be that dominate male in her life after Drogo dies and she rejects him after he makes his unwanted advances. I felt like that was a big step for her character development. Indeed. She is completely in control of that relationship. The only person making a decision there is her. She decides when she has sex with Daario, and she decides when she ends the relationship. But the whole romance part also works much better because it gets some time. Daario is introduced in ASoS and they only begin their relationship in ADwD. It is not something as forced and rushed as Jon-Ygritte. We see how Dany's feelings for Daario slowly develop. 1 hour ago, Traverys said: So true. There's a lot of labels and even outrage that would be thrown out if the genders were reversed in this specific situation. I've never thought of this, and I'm slapping my forehead because it certainly is a woman coercing a man into sex. Why is this more acceptable than the vice versa? Why didn't a red flag go off in my head? I imagine culture plays a huge part in this. It's why the concept of men being raped by women is still a controversial topic in modern courts. Well, it is kind of obvious if you think about power dynamics. The image one has is that only a man commits rape is because one thinks of someone forcing oneself on somebody else, doing the intercourse thing (however way they want to). But that is too narrow a definition. As a man you can imagine to be raped by another man, but our gender stereotypes make us cringe at the idea of a man being 'raped' by a woman - who is still seen as weaker, inferior, etc. That is why boys are not supposed to cry like girls, right? Even if you are the victim of sexual assault/rape by a woman you have great difficulty to see yourself as such. You would downplay it after the fact, not call it 'rape', etc. But this kind of stuff does happen. 1 hour ago, Traverys said: I agree with this. Even most her dialogue is filled with her typical phrase ("You know nothin") rather than something that develops her further. It makes it clear she was designed to fill a role as a caricature rather than one of the more dynamic living/breathing characters GRRM is capable of creating. She is likely a character that grow out of the 'Jon joins the wildlings' idea, and was never properly imagined or set up to become an important character further down the road. And while we are at that - Gilly seems to be a similar character. I really don't understand how she gets the hots for Sam, either. Sure, he helped get her and her child to the Wall, and she is grateful for that and all, but is it a good way to go from 'being grateful' to 'I'd like to show my gratitude by fucking you'? I don't think so. 1 hour ago, Traverys said: Touche! And yeah, the age gap is a bit disconcerting, at best. It's interesting how we have a large number of older men pining for much younger (often barely or not physically matured) girls but not much of the vice versa. We get a bit of it from Cersei, but what she was really getting from Lancel was a toy that she could pretend was a young Jaime. It'd be interesting to find out Miranda Royce has a young "boy toy" on the side or something like that to balance out this stereotypical barely-physically-matured-female to much-older-male ratio. I don't consider this series erotic at all, but GRRM aims to defy expectations... so why not with highborn women and their own personal tastes? Old powerful widows should surround herself with youths and use them to get the sexual pleasure they want. I expect that to happen most often in Dorne. I'm pretty sure the Yellow Toad had more than just one little boy toy taking care of her in later life. And we see hints of that also with Queen Rhaenys - she wasn't that old when she died, only in her early thirties - but she supposedly surrounded herself with young and handsome favorites. Shiera Seastar may have been another such case, etc. It is a pity that George didn't give Anya Waynwood some young lover. 1 hour ago, Traverys said: As a general disclaimer to everyone, I'm of course not promoting the sexualization of children. It makes for discomforting and tragic reads. But GRRM opened this door and it'd be interesting to see some balance. Well, quite frankly, unless you have some weird interest in young children young boys are not that interesting. When you are old then trophy youths - male and female - are not that uncommon among people in power. It is completely accepted for men in our days but women do that, too. They are just (forced to be) more discreet about that. 1 hour ago, Traverys said: It's also really hard to find much historical evidence about women being married off at 12 and 13 and having children. The only prominent example I could ever find was Margaret Beaufort, mother of Edward IV. The church had doctrine that listed appropriate betrothal, marriage, and consent ages for sons and daughters (which was quite young), but also had endorsed works that promoted women wait until mid to late teens before having children for health reasons (much like maesters do in-text). But child marriage remains some kind of "truism" when referring back to these eras without a whole lot of evidence to support this commonly believed idea. Sometimes I wonder if it's like the satanic cult craze of the 80s and 90s where there was virtually no examples of such a thing but everyone believed it anyways. If you go back far enough you'll realize that the marriage age of 12 years was perfectly fine in the early middle ages, especially in those collections of Germanic law we have starting in the days of the Merovingians. Women are capable of fulfilling their function in society from the day they can bear children. You also have to keep in mind that life was not all that long in those days, nor were sicknesses, pandemics, and famines rare. If postponed having children you might be dead before you had some, or you died shortly after the children were born. And 'childhood' as a safe space to develop, etc. is an invention of modern times. It did not exist for the most part of our (cultural) evolution. Children became adults as soon as they were able to work. And it is not that children are not having the strong urge to be sexually active when they hit puberty... And by the way - it is perfectly fine for you as an adult to have sex with a 12-year-old in the Vatican and Catholic Malta (Spain changed it to 13 years recently). 1 hour ago, Traverys said: It's interesting that GRRM even has the maesters recommend, for the health of the mother and child, that women be older and more developed before being expected to carry heirs... because in practice this hardly seems to be the case in the world he's crafted. An explanation could be that at times of war alliances have to be made and the age of children you use to broker these alliances becomes irrelevant. Child marriages are not that common. Most marriages we know of involve people who are legally adults (i.e. sixteen, by Westerosi standards) or nearly adults (e.g. Margaery is fifteen when she marries Renly). But it is clear that a woman can take a husband as soon as she is able to bear children. You usually postpone a marriage throughout the time a girl is considered a 'maiden' (from her flowering to legal adulthood) but exceptions can be made. Marriages involving children (Tommen, Aegon III, Jaehaera, Daenaera Velaryon) or infants (Ermesande Hayford, Rhaena Targaryen) are very uncommon and are only made when political and dynastic needs demand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 11/15/2017 at 1:56 PM, Tygett Lannister said: I think he did good job considering he is no a female. True Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 11/15/2017 at 10:18 PM, Princess Daenerys said: Mr. Martin has done a good job with creating his females. Much better than Mr. Jordan of the Wheel of time series. I can't really relate to any of the characters in the story because they live much differently than I do. I worry about grades and future career. The people in the story worry about survival. They face life and death each day and I deal with traffic. I love Dany even though we're nothing alike. I was never as smart at her age. I cared little beyond getting my license and shopping for clothes. Dany is remarkable at any age and great for her age to even care about the welfare of other people. I do wish I had been more like that when I was little. I guess we all mature at a different pace. Catelyn is a little like my mom. I suppose there is a caring mom hidden underneath Cersei too. I have known spacey girls like Sansa back in high school but they were not as dumb. Brienne is just ridiculous to the point of being silly and cartoonish. The same can be said of Arya and Asha. We can't all be a heroine like Dany. She was born great. Robert Jordan and George Martin wrote for different audiences. I also agree that Martin may be more realistic in most cases of the way females are presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I really don't think we can it spin that way. This stealing thing is an intentional act. The idea that Ygritte is so stupid/blind that she doesn't understand that Jon had no intention of stealing makes no sense. In addition, he sent her away when he was supposed to kill her. Even if he 'stole her' when he overpowered then he surely gave her up when he allowed her to go. [And quite frankly, Qhorin and buddies allowing him to do this makes absolutely no sense at that point in the story unless we assume they were trying to prepare Jon to become their mole even at that point. Which makes little sense in light of the fact that they are not yet discovered by the wildlings.] Whether it's intentional or not, Jon still did steal her. I don't think we can say even from a modern POV that this doesn't make sense- a guy or girl doesn't necessarily need to have intent to get someone to fall for them. All they need is some initial form of attraction, which Jon checks off by "stealing" Ygritte according to wildling custom, being attractive to Ygritte on a superficial basis, and then sparing her life. And yeah, I do think we're supposed to believe that Qhorin brought Jon along with this sole purpose of being a mole in mind (as unlikely as that may seem at the time). Qhorin specifically requests to bring Jon along on the ranging, so I think it's fair to assume the reason behind that is potentially being able to place him in as a mole if all goes to hell. Qhorin knows Mance like Ygritte knows Mance- I think it's reasonable to suspect that Qhorin knew Mance would take Jon in because of the Bael the Bard/Stark connection. Quote He still made it perfectly clear to her that he didn't want to have sex with her, no? I mean, can it be more explicit than putting the direwolf between the two of them? It is Ygritte who constantly harasses Jon, not the other way around. She shows up at his side when they are making camp, hangs out with him, etc. Jon doesn't know anyone in the wildling camp aside from Ygritte and Rattleshirt's gang who captured him. He is completely at her mercy. It is. It is only not often recognized as such because Jon is our hero and finally gets laid for the first time. It would have been much more interesting if Ygritte hadn't been that attractive - or rather, if Jon hadn't liked her all that much. Then it could have taken awhile before the hormones had kicked in and made him love her. If you have constant sex (and that is not completely disgusting or painful) with somebody for a longer period of time you really get fond of them, whether you want it or not. But it is there - we see this when Jon suddenly realizes he doesn't care all that much about Ygritte's crooked teeth, etc. That indicates he wouldn't have looked at her a second time if he had had a choice. I really can't disagree with any of this. My only quibble is that attraction doesn't necessarily always have to be instantaneous. It can develop over time by spending time together, etc. That's how I read Jon's observation about her crooked teeth and smile and all that stuff. But certainly afterwards the situation in which he first sleeps with her is disturbing as hell and not really any different from Dany's rape by Drogo. Quote It does, at that point. It is consent to being fingered by him. Not necessarily to being fucked by him. We never learned what happened afterwards. Perhaps they didn't have vaginal intercourse thereafter, perhaps it was much more pleasant than because Dany's vagina was wet and relaxed enough to not feel a lot of pain? We don't know. But the point about consent is that being okay with sexual act A doesn't necessarily mean you also want to do sexual act B. Nor does it mean that the man - usually the active part in sexual activities - can continue the sexual activity he does until he has gotten what he wants, right? If sex is painful for your partner you stop it immediately (unless we are in a BDSM game and the pain is part of the pleasure, and nobody said the safe word, etc.). But aside from all that, @Tagganaro quoted the entire AGoT passage above that makes it clear that Drogo raped Daenerys in the nights following their wedding night. I repeat it here: We do not know whether Dany asked Drogo to stop/leave her alone, or whether she was simply too afraid to ask. It is pretty obvious that she was in pain and was not enjoying the things Drogo did to her. And Drogo obviously did not care. She was on the verge of committing suicide. If that's your image of a happy marriage with consensual sex I don't know what your image of the opposite is. Sure, it isn't the same. It was a nice rape. Or a nice night of forced sex involving a 13-year-old if you like that phrase better. But the fact that it could have been worse doesn't make it better. Pretty much this. I'd also point out that whatever happened on Dany's wedding night, whether it was fingering or sex, she was in no position to give any real consent in the first place. All this is occurring under threat from her violent and abusive older brother- Viserys explicitly tells her to "please" Drogo or she will wake the dragon as it has never been woken before. Dany is terrified of Viserys and she is terrified of Drogo on her wedding night (and as that passage describes, even afterwards). I do not think that just because Drogo is surprisingly tender with her and gets her wet that it changes the fact that this is still a rape- it may be a tender rape but it is still rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Tagganaro said: Whether it's intentional or not, Jon still did steal her. I'm really not sure we can say that. I can see how Ygritte later spins it that way to strengthen her hold over Jon - and how the other wildlings go along with that to make him one of their own - but I really don't think that you can take possession of a wife (which the stealing thing basically is) without actually wanting to do so. I mean, have the stolen women from the villages beyond the Wall and in the North a right to claim that they were 'stolen' even if the men they want to be stolen by don't give a shit about them? I think not. Vice versa, a woman stolen by some Ironborn or Dothraki also has no right to become the salt wife/love slave of the warrior of her choice. When Jon and Tormund talk about Ygritte Tormund has an agenda there. He likes Jon. He wants him to become one of them, for good. That's Ygritte's purpose in all that. She has the hots for Jon but she also serves a function there. Mance is not stupid. He knows that a black brother thinking with his cock is not all that likely to betray him. Even if he wanted to - there is a point where he no longer can. 1 hour ago, Tagganaro said: I don't think we can say even from a modern POV that this doesn't make sense- a guy or girl doesn't necessarily need to have intent to get someone to fall for them. All they need is some initial form of attraction, which Jon checks off by "stealing" Ygritte according to wildling custom, being attractive to Ygritte on a superficial basis, and then sparing her life. Well, the whole stealing (and sparing her life) thing should come after some sort of superficial attraction, no? If we talk this kind of 'nice guy stealing' that happens between the members of neighboring clans or villages which are allied. Those women who are actually stolen have no choice whatsoever. 1 hour ago, Tagganaro said: And yeah, I do think we're supposed to believe that Qhorin brought Jon along with this sole purpose of being a mole in mind (as unlikely as that may seem at the time). Qhorin specifically requests to bring Jon along on the ranging, so I think it's fair to assume the reason behind that is potentially being able to place him in as a mole if all goes to hell. Qhorin knows Mance like Ygritte knows Mance- I think it's reasonable to suspect that Qhorin knew Mance would take Jon in because of the Bael the Bard/Stark connection. Well, that could actually make sense if you also bring in the question as to why Qhorin wanted to drag Jon along. But then - sparing Ygritte's life was utter stupidity considering that allowing her to live endangered the entire mission, no? That was before they were discovered by Orell's eagle... But it very well might be that Qhorin thought to find out the true intentions of the wildlings they had to get a mole into Mance's camp, so it does make sense from that POV. Although it is still awfully convenient that Ygritte is with the party that hunts down Jon and Qhorin. 1 hour ago, Tagganaro said: I really can't disagree with any of this. My only quibble is that attraction doesn't necessarily always have to be instantaneous. It can develop over time by spending time together, etc. That's how I read Jon's observation about her crooked teeth and smile and all that stuff. But certainly afterwards the situation in which he first sleeps with her is disturbing as hell and not really any different from Dany's rape by Drogo. It can, and it does. But if I remember the sequence of events correctly Jon thinks about her teeth only after they have become a couple, right? We are talking about 15-year-old boy here who expected to never see a vagina from the inside. Technically it is very easy to seduce such a person. But he isn't seduced. He is forced into having sex. Ygritte doesn't give him a choice. 1 hour ago, Tagganaro said: Pretty much this. I'd also point out that whatever happened on Dany's wedding night, whether it was fingering or sex, she was in no position to give any real consent in the first place. All this is occurring under threat from her violent and abusive older brother- Viserys explicitly tells her to "please" Drogo or she will wake the dragon as it has never been woken before. Dany is terrified of Viserys and she is terrified of Drogo on her wedding night (and as that passage describes, even afterwards). I do not think that just because Drogo is surprisingly tender with her and gets her wet that it changes the fact that this is still a rape- it may be a tender rape but it is still rape. Yes. Dany is not in the position to give consent there. Nobody gave her that choice nor was she ever in the situation where she could even think about what she wanted - and when she did try to make her own decision it was 'Viserys, I don't want to marry this savage'. I just acknowledged the point that George has Dany get wet and give consent when she gives her 'yes' line and shows some sort of sexual initiative. But that is, of course, initiative grown out of the previous sexual abuse. You can be put in a situation against your will during which you actually enjoy what's done to you and want to continue it. But that is still sexual abuse. In fact, it is an essential core of sexual abuse. You tell people - or make them believe - that it is not that bad, that they want it, too, etc. If we take the famous Jaime-Cersei example from ASoS it is quite clear that Jaime had no right to sexually approach Cersei because it was clear that she had no intention of having sex. The fact that she later enjoyed the act doesn't justify his actions. Even if it is part of their usual 'game' - and that seems to be the case - that Jaime sort of forces himself on her (like Asha enacts rape fantasies with Qarl) he was way out of line in that specific situation, with their son lying dead there, Cersei being in a vulnerable state, and he not even knowing that they were still a couple (Cersei could have remarried or taken another lover while he was believed to be dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaywolf123 Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 15.11.2017 at 10:28 AM, Traverys said: As a gay male I personally don't put much stock into gender (i.e., false dichotomy), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a very present and potent factor in our lives... no matter how much we may or may not wish it wasn't. So I wanted to start a thread about if girls/women/females feel like their gender is represented in the series with adequate care and intention. This is a question that extends beyond the atrocious treatment of stock character women (i.e., commoners) in times of war, which would be an entirely different discussion... It's more geared towards the numerous prominent female characters. Do you care to elaborate? To me male and female is biological terms for different breeding roles. But i do accept there are cases which are not clearcut like XX men. Maybe i am confusing the terms sex and gender? I am intrested in how humans in 50, 100, 200 years will see and experience gender and sex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system#Humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Biological_factors_and_views On 15.11.2017 at 10:28 AM, Traverys said: There is a range of female characters we get lots of insight into. Some are stereotypical medieval "girls" (e.g., Sansa), some are strong mothers (e.g., Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna), some are completely subversive to stereotypes (e.g., Asha, Arya, Brienne, Meera, etc.), and some walk the line between fulfilling and subverting many "womanly" stereotypes (e.g., Daenerys comes to mind, perhaps evem Cersei). Most women where what i think you are refering to by sterotypical medieval girls, and they were the wast majority of women in that time and age. But there also where women who had more "masculine" roles like Leif Eriksons sister. Leif's sister was a warrior in her own right, and is both famous and infamous for her actions and deeds. Most famously helping repell a "skraeling" attack aswell as having two norse men and their families killed for having claimed some houses she wanted for herself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freydís_Eiríksdóttir On 15.11.2017 at 10:28 AM, Traverys said: So, in your experienced opinion: 1. Is there a female character/representation you find completely inaccurate and offensive? 2. Is there a female character/representation you find completely accurate? (Which may or may not be offensive) 3. For out experienced or prospective mothers: Does GRRM accurately represent the ups and downs of motherhood compared to the (period/era bound) responsibilities of fatherhood? 4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times? 5. Is there a character you feel like would represent you in a "past life" in tune with the time period? And why? 6. Any other on topic point you want to touch on that you think/feel strongly about regarding the dynamic female representation in ASoIaF. I felt that G.R.R.M neglected more historically realistic portrayals of the time his books are inspired by. Maybe this is becouse he has focused on the nobillity. On 15.11.2017 at 10:28 AM, Traverys said: So the underlying message here is: has he given us progress? What do you mean by "progress"? On 15.11.2017 at 11:23 AM, Gertrude said: In general, I don't find many things that ring false in his characterizations.There do tend to be some that are over the top, but not in his PoVs. Ramsey and Joffrey are cartoon villains, to an extent Lysa too. We get part of their story and see them from the outside looking in. I tend to forgive these because stories need color and catalysts to move the action along. JOffrey was the most dissapointing character to me. I did not feel he was properly fleshed out, but we have only gotten glimpses of him from people who did not know him well, disliked him and cersei. On 15.11.2017 at 11:23 AM, Gertrude said: Among his PoV characters, Dany didn't ring true to me as a young bride to Drogo. When I try to pin point a specific thing, I hesitate and can justify each action or thought, but as a whole, it just felt off to me. She seemed too confidant in herself and taking control of her life and sexuality with Drogo, especially when the major influence on her life was Viserys who bullied and threatened her. I can't say it won't resonate for someone else, but for me, this was the hardest PoV to connect to and understand/believe. Dany was the character i liked the least, to me Catelyn and Brienne were the most enjoyable female povs. Of the male povs i liked Jon the best event though tywin is my favorite character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 2017-11-15 at 10:28 AM, Traverys said: This is a question geared towards GRRMs esteemed readers that, by fate, chance, divine blessing, or any number of reasons are of the female persuasion: Do you feel GRRM has done a good job, as a male author, writing female characters for this series? As a gay male I personally don't put much stock into gender (i.e., false dichotomy), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a very present and potent factor in our lives... no matter how much we may or may not wish it wasn't. So I wanted to start a thread about if girls/women/females feel like their gender is represented in the series with adequate care and intention. This is a question that extends beyond the atrocious treatment of stock character women (i.e., commoners) in times of war, which would be an entirely different discussion... It's more geared towards the numerous prominent female characters. There is a range of female characters we get lots of insight into. Some are stereotypical medieval "girls" (e.g., Sansa), some are strong mothers (e.g., Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna), some are completely subversive to stereotypes (e.g., Asha, Arya, Brienne, Meera, etc.), and some walk the line between fulfilling and subverting many "womanly" stereotypes (e.g., Daenerys comes to mind, perhaps evem Cersei). So, in your experienced opinion: 1. Is there a female character/representation you find completely inaccurate and offensive? 2. Is there a female character/representation you find completely accurate? (Which may or may not be offensive) 3. For out experienced or prospective mothers: Does GRRM accurately represent the ups and downs of motherhood compared to the (period/era bound) responsibilities of fatherhood? 4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times? 5. Is there a character you feel like would represent you in a "past life" in tune with the time period? And why? 6. Any other on topic point you want to touch on that you think/feel strongly about regarding the dynamic female representation in ASoIaF. I hope we can all keep the subject constructive and respectful. I just felt like there are plenty of women on this forum with important things to say. Wanted to have an opportunity to read their replies and opinions. By GRRM's own admission, fantasy has been a straight male genre for decades and has problematic interpretations of dynamic female characters. If a female character isn't an Arya, Asha, or Brienne, then she traditionally isn't considered interesting enough to be a main character. So the underlying message here is: has he given us progress? 1 No. Maybe the pseudo-lesbian trysts and Arianne don't ring completely true to me but what do I know. Tyrion defiling his chamberpot isn't tasteful either, so. 2 Yes. 3 No clue. Although Jaime's memories/dreams of Joanna is brilliant writing imo. 4 The whores and the raping are consistent throughout but still quite unbearable, especially considering that isn't exclusively medieval occurrences. Utterly depressing. But also: Dany lives a pretty swag life on top of her pyramid. 5 Not really. Maybe Arya or Cersei because they are most like me. 6 The thing that sold me to the series was that a girl got the dragons. No way in hell I'd ever read fantasy otherwise. I personally have this wishful thinking theory that GRRM is setting the anti-Dany-people up so that we all get to mock them when Dany turns out to be the ultimate hero. Might not qualify as progress, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 On 15/11/2017 at 10:48 PM, Lord Varys said: Does it make sense that Jon would spare Ygritte's life? Sure. And would she be grateful for that? Sure. But does it make sense that she suddenly falls for him? Not necessarily. By comparison, the Sansa-Sandor scenes and especially the Dany-Drogo relationship are much more problematic. The latter is essentially a relationship grounded in and based on the sexual abuse and rape of a child which is later glorified as 'love' which essentially should be nothing but a girl suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Did you get the implication that he "stole" her according to her customs? I didn't think it was too unbelievable. He was a strong stranger from a far off land, they're both teenagers, she felt she'd been "courted". I think Dany and Drogo is supposed to be a bit disturbing. Possibly the most uncomfortable fact we would all like to deny is that sexuality usually develops at puberty, not when you're 16 or 18 or whatever. Historically, many women were put in that sort of situation. Do you really think none of them developed feelings for their husbands? I don't think it's implied Drogo is a peadophile, he's following his culture's customs, and he clearly has some depths. My only problem, unless I'm missing some subtext, is it seems to be treated a bit too neatly. The sexual assaults don't seem to have negatively effected her. Maybe it's partly why she's so attracted to Daario, who seems like a bit of a twat? My favourite female character is Brienne Tarth. We get loads of female action heroes these days, but a lot of them could just be written male, then cast as female. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, a woman can have those characteristics. But with Brienne, George has given the character strongly feminine characteristics- she's very empathetic and romantic. She is so unlike a typical "amazon", she has been made to feel extremely ashamed of her body and looks, and she has a traditional attraction to men. The intense vulnerability, coupled with moral and physcial strength, makes her really stand out to me. I think a lot of us love the books because of the focus on outsiders- cripples and bastards and broken things- we all feel like outsiders sometimes, especially fantasy story reading nerds. Brienne has such a deeply human desire to be accepted by society, and it will never happen. Jaime can grow to respect her, but for every man like him there will always be one hundred Red Ronnet Conningtons, laughing at the freak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Jon "stole" Ygritte because he needed to break his vows and prove himself a turncloak. And it wasn't his plan to steal her either, but hers, probably on command by Mance Rayder. "Two hearts beating as one". What's easier than that? It was the same what Tywin did with Jeyne and Robb, except the fact that Jon managed to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynesse Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Great idea for a thread! Generally, I feel GRRM writes women very well. At times however it is obvious that he doesn't inhabit a female body. I found Sansa's PMS before her first period (cramping, breasts aching, irritability) in ACOK described rather well, so he does make an effort. BUT – no woman would ever apply perfume to her outer labia, at least not more than once. (Probably not to her nipples when she is supposed to put on a thin silk gown over it, either.) That is like applying perfume on your upper eyelid, close to the eyeball. Ouch. Regarding Daenerys' masturbation scene, a woman doesn't gasp when feeling how wet she is down there. You can usually feel your vagina lubricating, and it's not like that is shocking to you. I found the whole scene to be cringe-inducing. (These are just two examples off the top of my head.) Also, and it is understandable for GRRM not to write about it since he lacks the experience, but the menstrual cycle and everything that comes with it is very influential in a woman's daily life (speaking for myself and friends here). Which is why I found the Sansa example so commendable. Arianne apparently being mostly boobs bothered me. Imagine a guy described as being mostly his scrotum (“fondling his lush scrotum” etc.). The Daenerys/Drogo relationship was disturbing to me and reeks of Stockholm Syndrome. The widespread hatred of especially Catelyn and Sansa in the fandom (often by people who habitually defend utter monsters like Littlefinger) disturbs me and seems to originate in misogyny. In describing the physical attraction his female characters feel for males, often the effort absolutely is there and it works well, like when Asha thinks about her lover Qarl. There is room for improvement, though. (Speaking only for myself and a few close female friends I often discuss this topic with, we tend to pay the most attention to the face, the general body shape, especially the shoulders, the hands and upper arms, the voice, and the smell.) I agree with the point that some tertiary or even secondary female characters – Shae, Tysha, Ygritte – don't seem to have much of a tangible personality. I have a soft spot for Pia (and the way she is written as seen by Jaime), though, who, by the way, is not a prostitute but works in the buttery at Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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