Has GRRM written believable/relatable females for his female readers?

[Ser Uncle P]

On 11/15/2017 at 10:23 AM, Gertrude said:

Among his PoV characters, Dany didn't ring true to me as a young bride to Drogo. When I try to pin point a specific thing, I hesitate and can justify each action or thought, but as a whole, it just felt off to me. She seemed too confidant in herself and taking control of her life and sexuality with Drogo, especially when the major influence on her life was Viserys who bullied and threatened her. I can't say it won't resonate for someone else, but for me, this was the hardest PoV to connect to and understand/believe.

 

In fairness, Dany's "taking control of her life and sexuality" coincides with her receiving the eggs from the Cheesemonger and the dragon dreams which empower her to be more bold. 

[GloubieBoulga]

On 15/11/2017 at 9:43 PM, Traverys said:

I take from this that you feel that the author treated women equally compared to men as far as depth and characterization. I just wanted to know female perspective for reasons mentioned above.

Yes, that's for me the important point because "realism" in litterature is a part of the illusion : in that way male characters aren't more realistics than female but they all are built to be narratively coherent and believable as humans. Sometime, the narrative purpose contradicts the character and that where is the limit to realism. Or perhaps it is a way to reveal inner contradictions of human's heart ^^

Someone mentioned Asha's rape by Qarl the Maid in ADWD and sure, her pleasure is totally unrealistic and sends a false message to young people who have no sexual life's experience. But in a litterar point of view, the scene replays the short scene between LF and Sansa at the Eyrie with the snow Winterfell, and that tells us about LF as a true raper for Sansa (no matter if he only kisses her, the intention is an appropriation) and about Sansa's ambivalence : she's at this moment like a slave who tries to find a psychologic way to suffer his slavery with the less damages as possible, because he/she doesn't feel strong enough to gain his/her own liberty, which seems more dangerous. Sansa is in this situation far more realistic than Asha ^^

[Lifestream]

Probably the most difficult to relate to in my opinion is Ariane. She's very entitled and acts really immature for her age (I think she's 23?). But her storyline does get better in TWoW (the sample chapter I've read at least).

 

And while Catelyn also makes sense I also cant personally relate to her for some reason but I can understand where she comes from. Not that shes badly writter, far from it she just doesn't resonate with me that much for some reason.

 

I could definitely relate more to characters like Sansa, even Arya in some parts and Brienne as well. With Dany at times but not always.

 

The women are pretty decently written, I like that they have complex feelings and make mistakes whether out of love for their children (Catelyn) , for sex or power and perhaps even more reasons. None of them are too idealistic (except maybe partly Arya and Daenerys as far as fighting skills, survival and hatching dragons goes)

 

I do enjoy reading some of the women's thought process, like Cersei's. I don't agree with her most of the time but she's pretty entertaining and she can be funny unintentionally. I also enjoy Sansa's thought process because you can see a lot of the struggle Sansa has gone and is going through. Like whether to trust people or not.

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

In fairness, Dany's "taking control of her life and sexuality" coincides with her receiving the eggs from the Cheesemonger and the dragon dreams which empower her to be more bold. 

That's what I meant when I said I could justify each thought or action. It makes narrative sense that the eggs give her strength. Reading it, however, It's still awkward and off for me.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Did you get the implication that he "stole" her according to her customs? I didn't think it was too unbelievable. He was a strong stranger from a far off land, they're both teenagers, she felt she'd been "courted".

If Ygritte felt 'courted' by the fact that some dude killed her companions and was too weak to kill her then she has an utterly twisted view of what 'courting' means - and there is in indication that she has such a twisted view.

The wildlings may be fine with strong men dominating and controlling women - that's what the whole 'stealing custom' is about - because strong men are good men for the family, but even then those strong men must actually want to steal the woman in question.

If intent is lacking it isn't a theft. If I hang out in a store and somebody else puts some merchandise in my bag without me realizing it I'm not a thief.

In addition, Ygritte should know how the average stealing works in her culture. If Jon knows nothing, it is pretty obvious he also has no idea about stealing. He makes it pretty clear that he has no idea about that concept.

11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I think Dany and Drogo is supposed to be a bit disturbing. Possibly the most uncomfortable fact we would all like to deny is that sexuality usually develops at puberty, not when you're 16 or 18 or whatever. Historically, many women were put in that sort of situation. Do you really think none of them developed feelings for their husbands? I don't think it's implied Drogo is a peadophile, he's following his culture's customs, and he clearly has some depths.

Drogo shows that Dany is not the first little (slave) girl he sexually abused when he is as kind to Daenerys as he is. That is clearly an act. He knows how to arouse a scared young girl.

In combination with Illyrio's claim that Drogo will have no issues with Dany's age and underdeveloped female body we can be pretty sure he has a taste for young girls.

That doesn't mean he is a pedophile - such people usually are only aroused by children who have not yet hit puberty.

The point here isn't that adolescents also can have sexual desires and agency - they can and do have that. The point is that Drogo married Daenerys against her will and raped her while she was still a thirteen-year-old girl.

11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

My only problem, unless I'm missing some subtext, is it seems to be treated a bit too neatly. The sexual assaults don't seem to have negatively effected her. Maybe it's partly why she's so attracted to Daario, who seems like a bit of a twat?

It is her destiny - the dragon dreams and the dragon eggs - who allow her to deal with all that. The rape and sexual abuse don't make her stronger. She always had that strength and it is only 'activated' by the circumstances she finds herself in.

The way it happens she could also have found the strength to put Viserys in his place if she had gotten the dragon eggs in a different context.

But since we have the rape/sexual abuse plot alongside the fantasy 'dragon destiny' plot people occasionally confuse those two things and see Drogo as a person who helped Daenerys to come into her own - which he simply never was. The Dothraki culture helped her to see Viserys for what he was, true, but even that is accidental. She could/was willing to adapt that new culture and he wasn't. She became strong because he refused to try to fit in. It could have happened in pretty much any other cultural context.

What empowered Dany was magical destiny - the dragon dreams she had. Without them, she would have killed herself. Without them she would never have found the courage - or even the desire - to take charge of her relationship by becoming more sexually active. 

And it is her becoming Drogo's active sex bunny - the child woman who no longer passively weeps and is a huge disappointment in bed but essentially approaches and entertains him with new sexual games - which triggers Drogo's lasting affection for her. Pleasuring Drogo sexually the way she later does helps her to get into his heart. If she never did that he wouldn't have been proud of her nor would he have listened to her advice, etc.

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Jon "stole" Ygritte because he needed to break his vows and prove himself a turncloak. And it wasn't his plan to steal her either, but hers, probably on command by Mance Rayder.

That is what the wildlings later did, when they all pushed Jon to have sex with Ygritte (Tormund, for instance). But there was no plan for that back when Jon spared Ygritte's life.

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

"Two hearts beating as one". What's easier than that? It was the same what Tywin did with Jeyne and Robb, except the fact that Jon managed to survive.

Sure, a black brother thinking with his cock is lost. And the wildlings - especially Mance - know that. That is a huge part of the reason why they don't kill him. They know Ygritte will corrupt him, one way or another. And if not then, well. Jarl and Styr would deal with him. He has a tremendous amount of luck when he gets away from the wildlings when he does. And wouldn't have done so if the direwolves hadn't been around.

[Serafina]

 

On 17/11/2017 at 2:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

If you go back far enough you'll realize that the marriage age of 12 years was perfectly fine in the early middle ages, especially in those collections of Germanic law we have starting in the days of the Merovingians.

Women are capable of fulfilling their function in society from the day they can bear children.

You also have to keep in mind that life was not all that long in those days, nor were sicknesses, pandemics, and famines rare. If postponed having children you might be dead before you had some, or you died shortly after the children were born.

This is a popular misconception. The marriage of 12-year-old girl was fine only in high-born (especially regal) families. Very few peasants or craftsmen would give away their daughter at such a young age because it would mean they lose a part of the family's labour force. A French historian studied how peasants married back in the 16th century and he realized it was on average in their mid-twenties. It was a bit different for high-born girls because they were valuable as a bargaining chip and consequently they didn't wait until their mid-twenties to get married. Still, they got engaged when they were 12 years old but their marriage didn't happen until years later.

 

16 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Do you care to elaborate? To me male and female is biological terms for different breeding roles. But i do accept there are cases which are not clearcut like XX men. Maybe i am confusing the terms sex and gender? I am intrested in how humans in 50, 100, 200 years will see and experience gender and sex.

Both gender and sex are social constructs. You might want to take a look at Anne Fausto-Sterling's work.

 

7 hours ago, Lynesse said:

Arianne apparently being mostly boobs bothered me. Imagine a guy described as being mostly his scrotum (“fondling his lush scrotum” etc.).

I agree it's infuriating. We are told Dorne is progressive on the gender issue but the way Arianne and her cousins' character are written tells another story.

[The Sunland Lord]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That is what the wildlings later did, when they all pushed Jon to have sex with Ygritte (Tormund, for instance). But there was no plan for that back when Jon spared Ygritte's life.

Yes, even smarter people than Mance couldn't have planned something like that from the beginning. It's just out of control. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, a black brother thinking with his cock is lost. And the wildlings - especially Mance - know that. That is a huge part of the reason why they don't kill him. They know Ygritte will corrupt him, one way or another. And if not then, well. Jarl and Styr would deal with him. He has a tremendous amount of luck when he gets away from the wildlings when he does. And wouldn't have done so if the direwolves hadn't been around.

His survival was a fluke, yeah. Well, the man has a plot armor. Or had, depends. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Many moons ago, you and I talked about how even though Arya and Sansa are technically children, most of the time George writes them as if they're several years older, especially Sansa. This thread has already explored many things about the books that don't quite add up--such as Dany falling in love with Drogo--but I think that, along with the ages, is a case of the author trying to convey one thing but not quite managing it the way he intended to. In order to enjoy the story, I try to simply accept that these are likely mistakes in an otherwise well-written series.

Take Sansa's relationships, for instance: in her scenes with the Hound, it's written as if she's in her late teens and is attracted to a guy who is canonically in his late twenties. When she's with Petyr (who I believe is in his early thirties) however, it's written as if she is much younger, likely to highlight how predatory he is. I've seen a lot of cringing over SanSan shipping, but I think the reason for why this is a popular ship is pretty straightforward. People who like Sansa want to see her have a relationship with someone who a] she's actually attracted to and b] doesn't want her for her claim. In canon, the Hound is the only person who fits the criteria thus far. (I think this is also why Jonsa became a popular ship among show fans).

Asha is a good character, although she does feel rather incomplete to me. There's a huge gap in development between when we see her in ACOK and when we get her POV in AFFC. We see that she's been turned off of the Old Way, but we're not giving much reflection as to why that is. The most we get is during her kingsmoot speech, when she talks about how the Ironborn don't need more dead men and grieving widows. 

One very interesting thing about Asha, however, is that she probably has the best relationship with her mother out of all the POV characters (which is actually rather sad, but I digress). When she's posing as Esgred, she tries to talk Theon into visiting their mother, and although I do think she feels sorry for him at this point, her attempts to save Theon are always based in her wanting to spare her mother more pain. (Granted, the fact that both Harlaw sisters have gone semi-mad and are confined to wander a castle is a bit. . . much. I think George definitely could have handled that better). One of my favorite lines in the series is about how when Asha was a little girl, she played with both dolls and axes. It definitely gives you a feel for the character, especially since I'm pretty sure she's going to be a mother by the end of the series.

I do take some issue with how Ironborn women are portrayed, namely because Asha and her mother and aunt are apparently the only ones around (and like I mentioned before, the older two are literally losing their minds). The series doesn't seem sure of whether or not the Iron women are more empowered or more oppressed than other Westerosi women. I've seen arguments for both, with the most compelling being that the oppression of salt wives likely permits the other women to be elevated to a higher status. But there are some massive gaps: Theon mentions a history of female captains in ACOK, and he acknowledges that daughters inherit before uncles in terms of lordships, which would imply that that has happened before. But who are these women? When the men were off reaving in Essos, odds are that their land was being run by women, but why doesn't the worldbook make mention of it? This lack of information is very disappointing to me. 

I don't think this was intentional, but in some respects I think the argument could be made that Cat is a deconstruction of the "perfect women." 

I love the fact that Brienne is a tomboy who doesn't hate more feminine girls. That's depressingly rare in fiction.

The most intriguing thing I saw someone point out about Melisandre was that she could very well be asexual. How much of that is due to her magical predicament or who she is naturally is debatable, but sexual desire is clearly very low on her list of priorities.

I have a hard time liking Arianne. She does not have her cousins' violent bloodlust, and I've seen compelling arguments for how she actually admires Doran and aspires to be like him, rather than genuinely resenting him. But she's also mind-numbingly foolish, and even if she eventually feels guilty for manipulating Arys, the narrative frames it as being empowering. In reality, it's gross, and to think that that's supposed to be empowering is laughable. In some respects, I think she's a bit of a GRRM-dream-girl based on how she's basically described as a sex goddess. But she's not his number one dream girl, because that title goes to. . . 

. . . Daenerys. Honestly, I never picked up on that aspect of Dany's character until I joined this website and saw it discussed here at length. I can understand why other people like her, but I personally don't find her a very compelling character. 

I do think Tysha loved Tyrion. However, I hope she's not the Sailor's Wife because. . .okay, why would a woman who was gang-raped by command of her father-in-law, while her husband watched, and then raped by her husband spend the rest of her life dreaming of his return and celebrating a marriage that ended so horrifically? Doesn't make much sense, if you ask me. 

Then there's Cersei. Oh, Cersei. Personally, I think she's a great character, and is definitely the most nuanced villain in the series. I have pondered why Jaime was the twin who was redeemed rather than her, but I think it may have been a case of Jaime's character opening up in an unexpected way and George deciding to run with it. It's also been brought to my attention recently how, personality-wise, Jaime's probably the outsider in the family, despite him being the perceived golden boy. There's a ton of parallels between Cersei and Tyrion, especially in the later books, and I really appreciate that.

This brings me to probably my biggest grievance regarding the way women are portrayed in this series. Rhaenyra was a queen, and she was awful. Cersei is a queen, and she's awful. We're supposed to root for Dany and expect her to be the one great queen, but frankly. . . I'm not a fan. Rhaenyra and Cersei are the only women to exercise real power in King's Landing, and they both failed. In fact, the only woman I can see making a good queen who already has some sort of claim is Asha, but that's only as the queen of the Iron Islands, not Westeros. Sansa is learning politics, and perhaps she will rule Winterfell one day, but she doesn't have any claim of her own to the Iron Throne, nor does she have any desire for it. So basically every time a women gets a chance to rule as a king would, she screws it up spectacularly. As I said above, we're clearly supposed to root for Dany to be the queen who does it right, but I don't think she's been written as a particularly enticing alternative. She's better than Cersei, surely, but that's not a high bar. 

Overall, I love the majority of George's female characters, and I think he does a great job bringing them to life. There are flaws, but I've found that the strengths tend to outweigh the weaknesses when it comes to the women of ASOIAF. 

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Serafina said:

This is a popular misconception. The marriage of 12-year-old girl was fine only in high-born (especially regal) families. Very few peasants or craftsmen would give away their daughter at such a young age because it would mean they lose a part of the family's labour force. A French historian studied how peasants married back in the 16th century and he realized it was on average in their mid-twenties. It was a bit different for high-born girls because they were valuable as a bargaining chip and consequently they didn't wait until their mid-twenties to get married. Still, they got engaged when they were 12 years old but their marriage didn't happen until years later.

I never said that this was all that common. I talked about the age marriage was legally accepted and possible in the middle ages. And it is a fact that 12 years was the age when marriage was possible, going back to the earliest codices of medieval law.

The 16th century marks the end of the middle ages, or is already the first century of the modern era (the middle ages usually end with the invention of the printing press, the Protestant Reformation, the discovery of the Americas, etc.).

It is pretty clear that people needing their children as a workforce would not be keen to marry them off. But that isn't the case for all children. If children can marry at the age of twelve some people will do it. Just as they do in real life.

[Colonel Green]

On 11/18/2017 at 3:22 AM, Lynesse said:

The widespread hatred of especially Catelyn and Sansa in the fandom (often by people who habitually defend utter monsters like Littlefinger) disturbs me and seems to originate in misogyny.

I think it comes down to both fan misogyny (when you compare the receptions of the ladies you cite versus any number of male characters whose actions are objectively much worse, I think that's undeniable) and also some choices the author himself made.

To the original post, on the whole I think GRRM does well with the female characters as individuals (the over-sexualization that some people have discussed, particularly in regard to consent issues in the case of Dany/Drogo, is definitely a real concern, though). 

The biggest weakness of the books, as far as female characters go, is the lack of positive female relationships.  The lack of prominent female supporting characters for the main female POVs is hard to miss, and relationships between the major female POVs are also pretty limited.  Sansa/Arya is the only prominent sororal relationship in the series, and while people mostly assume it's meant to eventually end in them overcoming their differences, in the series to date it's just toxic.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I think GRRM did a decent job considering he isn't a female. Not with every female character but the majority of them. Many others have mentioned the oversexualization & I would have to agree. I guess I give George a break there though as it would be very hard for a male to understand a woman in this capacity. 

I don't find any of them that far off the mark & none of them offend me. 

I love the fact that there are several woman/girls breaking stereotypes in the series. Not just one. Brienne may be the most extreme example but we also have Arya & Asha, even Cersei & Ygritte to a degree. 

The character I most relate to? Hmm. Strangely I think it's the "crazy mom" part of characters like Cat, Cersei, even Lysa a little. A poster above commented that this was unrealistic or something to that nature & talked about Jaime saying they all turn nuts after they have children (paraphrasing) I don't find it unrealistic at all. Before I had children I think I would relate more to Arya or Brienne but after Cat is definitely my girl. Mothers will go through an unimaginable amount of suffering to save their children (not that father's won't but I am a mother, not a father) Cat gets so much ridicule for releasing Jaime & I understand it in regards to what it caused among Robb & his men but to be honest she waited longer than I would have. Any chance, any hope I had to save my children I would take it - the greater good be damned. 

I also don't find Arya unrealistic especially for a fantasy novel. Little girls have been actual serial killers IRL (someone above called her that, not what I think she is) after having half the trauma Arya has. Arya is trying to become self dependent. She doesn't want to be the helpless victim & wants to be able to defend herself. 

At any rate she hasn't done anything I find unrealistic. Nothing that would require her to have super powers like beating Brienne in a sword fight 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 11/17/2017 at 11:46 PM, Traverys said:

What's your perceptions/opinions about how female writers approach these kind of sexual topics and imagery in fiction? If you don't mind me asking. Do you feel there is more balance? Do they, in turn, focus on men in a similarly voyeuristic way?

There are women writers who tend to write male characters as romantic ideals and stereotypes but they're pretty much confined to the new adult/romance genre. I don't think it's a problem elsewhere, whereas male writers, regardless of genre or skill, will try to bring lips and breasts to attention at as much as possible ("her arms crossed beneath her breasts", "her heaving breasts"). And there's always at least one cute girl with a heart-shaped face.

Also, I've found that women write sex scenes far better than men do. Part of it is because of the technical writing, but it's also because a lot of male writers just don't seem to understand female sexuality or basic anatomy. And don't get me started on lesbian scenes.

On 11/17/2017 at 11:46 PM, Traverys said:

Elaborate! If you don't mind. What are some of the things that you find inaccurate about his writing in this regard?

Well, it's mostly because of Dany's love interests, in particular, Daario with his three pronged beard.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:12 AM, Lord Varys said:

I actually do just that. Jon Arryn fucking a woman as uninterested in him as Lysa Arryn is rape. Vice versa, Stannis definitely has to be pitied to be forced to have sex with Selyse. He was still the active part in all that, but the twisted nature of arranged marriages forces you to actually have sex with people you despise. Selyse doesn't seem to despise Stannis, so she was perhaps happy in all that.

Imagine yourself being forced into a marriage with a person you don't want to have sex with - you don't have to be abhorred by them, you just don't want to have sex with them - and living in a society where this spouse of yours which you didn't choose nor could reject can force you to have sex with him or her whenever they like. That is rape, by our standards.

Not every husband enforces this kind of thing - or can bring himself to sleep with the wife he can't stand - which is the reason why many of those arranged marriages remain childless.

Tyrion was also about to rape Sansa until he gave her permission to make her own choice. Prior to that she did everything he asked of her despite the fact that she visibly despising him and hating the entire situation.

And again - we have to ask our good author why he invented a world where there is so much gender inequality. Nobody forced him to do that.

It is true that he can give some women a place in the sun even in that setting, but it didn't have to be this bad, did it?

"I don't want to have sex" isn't always the same as "I don't consent to sex". For example, I've had sex when I wasn't in the mood for it, but allowed it anyway. I imagine this isn't an uncommon scenario for people who are asexual, or have low sex drives, or medical/physiological issues that can make sex uncomfortable. So I think to classify everything as rape broadens the definition of term too much, making it meaningless. I mean, if all sex in arranged marriages are rape, then so too is having sex with your sugar daddy/momma.

On 11/18/2017 at 2:12 AM, Lord Varys said:

See above. Either she was too afraid to ask Drogo to leave her alone or she did and he didn't care. Drogo most definitely must have seen she didn't enjoy the ordeal he put her through - but he didn't care. He only began to care about her when she became this super sexual male fantasy. The experienced child whore who rode him in the open. That is Dany becoming Drogo's sex bunny fantasy.

Again, bad sex isn't rape. And there wasn't anything to say she was afraid to put an end to it.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

"I don't want to have sex" isn't always the same as "I don't consent to sex". For example, I've had sex when I wasn't in the mood for it, but allowed it anyway.

Then you had no agency in that situation and allowed yourself to be used. I don't know in what kind of a situation/relationship you were in, but the kind of people I live with - and would want to live with - don't like having sex with people who don't want to have sex with them. Nor do I want to live in a situation where the people I have sex with think they have to be 'available' for sex all the time.

You don't have to call that 'rape' if you are uncomfortable with it but it is a fact that it would fit the modern definition (or at least versions of modern definitions) of that term.

I mean, if my girlfriend isn't in the mood I don't push her. Life isn't over tomorrow. Vice versa, I cannot even imagine giving in to the whining (or the demands) of another person for sex. If you aren't in the mood, if your mind isn't enjoying the whole thing you are not really having sex, have you? You don't enjoy it. You are just there, physically.

I'm aware that women can do that much 'better' than men. I have great difficulty imagining fucking a woman I'm really, really disgusted by. But fingering, cunnilingus are different matters, due to the fact that you don't have to be sexually aroused to do them - just as women don't really have to be in the act to be fucked. They just have to be there. They don't even have to enjoy it. But that isn't what (female) sex is supposed to be about. It is something that the people being involved in should enjoy.

We do know that female orgasms are much more intense and satisfying than male orgasms. And we know that to get there you usually have to be really in the mood, in a safe space, feeling comfortable, etc.

A woman should always enjoy the sex she has - just as a man should enjoy the sex he has. You can play fantasy games and do BDSM stuff, etc. all day long - but what has to be clear is that what is done is something both people want to do and they are both comfortable with doing it.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I imagine this isn't an uncommon scenario for people who are asexual, or have low sex drives, or medical/physiological issues that can make sex uncomfortable.

Well, such people - especially asexual people - should then not be forced to go through things they don't like or enjoy just to make others happy. If they do that of their own free choice nobody is going to criticize them for that but there is a power dynamic in relationships.

For such people, sex is usually not a priority in their relationships. To be in a happy and stable relationship they should look for people with an equally low sex drive - and usually do so. If you think such people should force themselves to have sex more often than they actually enjoy it I'd suggest you rethink what you are saying there. Sure, if you are in love and all you don't want your partner to go over something like that, etc. but society doesn't really expect or demand of a man to fuck his girlfriend or wife as often as she wants him to. It is his call. But women are usually taught to be sexually available for their man whenever he is in the mood - and if you think about that it is a really ugly and demeaning thing.

We have all our own sexuality. It is not our duty or job to please others with our sexuality.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

So I think to classify everything as rape broadens the definition of term too much, making it meaningless. I mean, if all sex in arranged marriages are rape, then so too is having sex with your sugar daddy/momma.

The comparison is off here. Arranged marriages are usually arranged by people who are not the future spouses. You basically have no control over your later sex life (which, if you are the wife, consists of sex with the man other people chose for you).

If you have a sugar daddy or are working as a prostitute (or sex worker, if you like that term better) then you have at least the choice to choose your clients (at least under ideal modern conditions).

But there is a reason why prostitutes are pretty much looked down upon by most/all cultures. They are faking pleasure and desire in exchange for money. This is, in the end, deception. And people don't like being deceived, even if (self-)deception is the only way to have sex.

Getting a pity fuck isn't exactly a nice experience, but it is much easier to respect a person doing that than a person who fakes affection and pleasure in exchange for money.

That is also a reason why the religious prostitution thing George has invented for the Summer Isle culture is different from normal prostitution.

Vice versa, I cannot really imagine the unpleasantness and emotional strain a sex worker has to go through when he or she doesn't really enjoy every part of the job. There may be very few people who really are up to that but I very much doubt the average person is up to that task. I'm definitely not up to that task (nor willing to try it out).

In addition, the fact that people need money to live doesn't mean all means of getting money (legally) is something we should applaud. If you are a person who doesn't have any reason aside from his or her own sexual desires and wishes to express them they can be sex workers all day long. But if you end up in that profession due to economic needs and/or social circumstances/pressure I see no reason why I should assume that those people are in the position to make a proper decision.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Again, bad sex isn't rape. And there wasn't anything to say she was afraid to put an end to it.

You really don't seem to understand what's going on there. Dany had no choice there. This is (marital) rape. There is no way around that. You may not understand that (in detail), but this is not just bad sex. You can give consent to bad sex. Dany didn't give consent to the ordeal she went through there. She didn't even give proper consent to her entire marriage.

If I was in the position to put you or your child through the ordeal Viserys, Illyrio, and Drogo put Daenerys with this 'marriage thing' there then I'd be correctly be seen as being guilty of the crimes of slavery, human trafficking, child abuse, and rape.

[zandru]

On 11/18/2017 at 1:48 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

Someone mentioned Asha's rape by Qarl the Maid in ADWD and sure, her pleasure is totally unrealistic and sends a false message to young people who have no sexual life's experience.

I got the impression that this was a game they liked to play. Y'know, even today, some couples enjoy tying one another up and "raping" one another. Weird, disturbing - but apparently, with mutual consent.

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, zandru said:

I got the impression that this was a game they liked to play. Y'know, even today, some couples enjoy tying one another up and "raping" one another. Weird, disturbing - but apparently, with mutual consent.

It is part of the kind of sexual role plays people actually do play. And if you think about the prevalence of rape in Ironborn culture - most of the children of salt wives would be children of rape, and the prospect of raping some women would be an enormous incentive for the entire raiding culture thing - it is not surprising that the concept also affected/shaped Asha's sexuality and/or plays a role in her sexual fantasies.

[Even without that, there are women in real life who have rape fantasies.]

But an aspect people should keep in mind when we talk about BDSM and other sexual games is the fact that - if we are talking about consent - the person playing the submissive or passive part are not exactly 'victims' in that kind of game. They are enacting their fantasies to the degree they are comfortable with - and enacting your sexual fantasies usually is a very liberating experience. That is not really different from 'normal' sex games between loving partners (and Asha and Qarl really seem to love each other). Even if you have to pay a man or a woman to treat you in a particular way you are, in the end, the person in control - never mind that you give up that control within the confines of the game.

In that sense Asha's game isn't problematic. It would be if Asha had the feeling - and was sending the message to the reader - that she had to play this kind of game to please Qarl, to be a proper little lover for him, etc.

But this couldn't be further from the truth. Asha is in complete control of her sexuality - and of Qarl (and Tristifer).

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If I was in the position to put you or your child through the ordeal Viserys, Illyrio, and Drogo put Daenerys with this 'marriage thing' there then I'd be correctly be seen as being guilty of the crimes of slavery, human trafficking, child abuse, and rape.

I think the reason some people overlook all this is because they want Daenerys/Drogo to be some great romance. The same way they want Jon/Ygritte to be one too despite how that relationship went down.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think the reason some people overlook all this is because they want Daenerys/Drogo to be some great romance. The same way they want Jon/Ygritte to be one too despite how that relationship went down.

Just to clarify - Dany ended up loving Drogo. It is just not a love that should be seen as a positive romance. Whether Drogo ever loved Daenerys is an interesting question. I think the hints we get in the book is that he definitely grew fond of her and enjoyed their sex after she did her best to become his little sex bunny. But he always saw her as his property and the mere means to produce his special son. That is why he chose to conquer Aerys' throne for his Rhaego, not Daenerys.

And there is the eerie feeling that Dany is by far not the first little girl (or woman) he used his 'No?' routine with. He must be pretty good considering that his touches not only calmed Dany down but also got her aroused. 

Drogo could have been much worse. But that doesn't make him a good person, not even in his relation with Daenerys (not to mention the overall Dothraki lifestyle). 

The single thing Drogo and the Dothraki gave Dany are the means to acquire power. And we have not yet seen the end of that story. Dany will master the Dothraki in TWoW. She might even destroy them, and their way of life. The dragon is not mocked. And perhaps the dragon is also not raped with impunity. We have to wait and see.

Ygritte and the wildlings can be seen, in a very real sense, as Jon's Drogo-Dothraki. They, too, tempt Jon to leave the right path (Dany with her obsession of bringing Drogo back; Ygritte with the cave and the idea of them having a life together) but they are ultimately little more than a distraction - and both the Dothraki and the wildlings most likely will end up as tools in Dany and Jon's hands, respectively.

One hopes Jon gets around to get some more experience in the romance-and-sex department, just as Dany got her really good time with Daario (which continue, assuming they are reunited later on). If Melisandre ended up being involved in such a relationship it could also make for an interesting plot. Unlike Val, she wouldn't be a trophy woman.

[NorthGirl]

On 15/11/2017 at 4:28 AM, Traverys said:

This is a question geared towards GRRMs esteemed readers that, by fate, chance, divine blessing, or any number of reasons are of the female persuasion: Do you feel GRRM has done a good job, as a male author, writing female characters for this series?

As a gay male I personally don't put much stock into gender (i.e., false dichotomy), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a very present and potent factor in our lives... no matter how much we may or may not wish it wasn't. So I wanted to start a thread about if girls/women/females feel like their gender is represented in the series with adequate care and intention. This is a question that extends beyond the atrocious treatment of stock character women (i.e., commoners) in times of war, which would be an entirely different discussion... It's more geared towards the numerous prominent female characters. 

There is a range of female characters we get lots of insight into. Some are stereotypical medieval "girls" (e.g., Sansa), some are strong mothers (e.g., Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna), some are completely subversive to stereotypes (e.g., Asha, Arya, Brienne, Meera, etc.), and some walk the line between fulfilling and subverting many "womanly" stereotypes (e.g., Daenerys comes to mind, perhaps evem Cersei).

So, in your experienced opinion:

1. Is there a female character/representation you find completely inaccurate and offensive?

2. Is there a female character/representation you find completely accurate? (Which may or may not be offensive)

3. For out experienced or prospective mothers: Does GRRM accurately represent the ups and downs of motherhood compared to the (period/era bound) responsibilities of fatherhood?

4. Is there a character that really opened your eyes to the disadvantages (or perhaps even advantages) of being a women in medieval (and beyond) times?

5. Is there a character you feel like would represent you in a "past life" in tune with the time period? And why?

6. Any other on topic point you want to touch on that you think/feel strongly about regarding the dynamic female representation in ASoIaF.
 

I hope we can all keep the subject constructive and respectful. I just felt like there are plenty of women on this forum with important things to say. Wanted to have an opportunity to read their replies and opinions. By GRRM's own admission, fantasy has been a straight male genre for decades and has problematic interpretations of dynamic female characters. If a female character isn't an Arya, Asha, or Brienne, then she traditionally isn't considered interesting enough to be a main character.

So the underlying message here is: has he given us progress?

 

First of all OP, nice thread. I’m sure I’m going to learn a lot in this one.

I’m writing. My answers before reading everyone else’s so sorry if repetitive.

 

1. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of particularly inaccurate or offensive characterisations for the main characters. I have a problem with Dany but I can’t tell if it’s intentional or not just yet and it really has little to do with the fact that she’s a girl. She just feels less real to me? I had the same issue with Jon. Dance elaborated a lot more on how both their personalities inform their leadership styles so I got more out of them then. Problem is I ended actively disliking her instead of simply being indifferent. And her beginning story is having Stockholm Syndrome and “turning it around” to get things going her way.
2. I’ll say it loud for the people in the back: Cersei is so real it’s scary. George must have met a Cersei in his life because the characterisation on point. The paranoia, self inflated ego, the complete inability to assess where they went wrong. Every time people say she’s unrealistic or too over the top I just sigh in envy that they haven’t met a real life Cersei. Everyone else feels pretty on point too. My only problem at the beginning was how extreme Sansa’s dissociation was but by the end of the book he course corrected and made her more real to me.
3. Can’t contribute to that.
4. Most of the hardships and punishments the female characters endure make me more aware of the gendered nature of justice and judgement both in the books and real life. Like people can’t just complain or hate a certain female character, they have to somehow be misogynistic about it and attack their femininity and disavow their attempts at agency.
5. Arya. Like her, I hate being told I can’t do something for something as dumb the fact that I was born female. I don’t like restrictions or being forbidden thing, the quickest way to get me to do something is tell me it’s impossible. But I also react to authority figure’s sabotage the way she did with Septa Mordane, I had a PE teacher I hated and purposely made no effort to improve, if anything I slacked all semester because I just hated that she was treating me unfairly. It’s super dumb but yeah... And I definitely have my people I feel accountable to and will always defend them no matter what. I’m also pretty adaptable at different environments.
6. I just love how dramatically it increases in Feast (which is my favourite). I actually think he benefited from the POV structure when it comes to evaluating his female characters because some things that I would normally be mad at and treat as an extension of the author’s beliefs, I am more tolerant of because it’s seen through the eyes of a short sighted dude. I do, however, have a huge problem with the absence of mothers and how little influence they are said to have had on the characters. It bothers me that it took 75 years to get Ned’s mum’s name when there was already a detailed Targaryen family tree. And the dead mothers to the 3 most important characters definitely earns side-eye from me but there might be thematic significance to it. Joanna is the only pre-canon mother that seems to have had any kind of impact. Lyanna’s entire arc is about being taken and found dead, with the possibility of rape that resulted in the birth of Jon Snow. The way he describes her is antithetical to the way she is used in the narrative. But it could be made better by knowing what really happened, even if know how it ends.

 

On the question of progress, well he did the one thing that allows writers to play with different archetypes without seeming to characterise woman as one way; he created a fuck ton of important female characters. So you can’t say the way Cersei spirals proves he’s sexist because that wouldn’t explain Sansa, Arya or Cat. Having a lot of female characters means that he didn’t have to give all attributes in the universe to this one character. If a character is everything to everyone, they’re also nothing because there is not enough constancy to give them a real personality. So yeah, while there are certain pitfalls to avoid, it’s a much easier navigation when there are all types of women in a story, because it’s much less easy to stamp a condemning label on the work. But he also did well in not being cliche and not somehow end up with 6 female characters that are exactly the same. So I do think there is progress in his work, especially in a post-Feast world, that shows he is actually trying to understand what makes women tick and how their circumstances create them and they have to deal with the aftermath. I also think it helps that, you know he’s not a misogynist. If he was we would be observing disturbing patterns across female characters regardless of their many differences.

I also think he tries to get a bit more intersectional in terms of at least ethnicity, with Arianne. His biggest flaw, and really that’s for all characters, is that we don’t have a common woman. They’re all nobility. I think he tried something with Shae definitely but while I find her well thought out in terms of what a girl like her would realistically be like after the undoubtedly terrible life she lead, she was never given enough space in the narrative to really suss out more on the class dynamics in more detail. And the whole point of her story line was that she was inscrutable enough for Tyrion to forget who she was, which doesn’t lend it self to learning a lot about her.

I think it is progress because even before Feast, which if not a feminist book, definitely spends a lot of time dissecting the female condition, he had already started to stray from the clichés of Game and fantasy in general. And even in Game, Cat was already very well fleshed out and conceptualised.

[lojzelote]

Overall I think he did a good job.

My favorite female character - no big surprise here - is Dany. While her AGoT romance story is somewhat hookey, I don't think it is any more unbelievable than the thing we have later got with Jon and Ygritte. I don't think it is a problem with her as a character as much as that GRRM simply isn't very good at writing convincing romance.

OTOH there is a chance that there might be more to it yet - Qaithe makes it quiete clear that before Dany makes it Westeros she will have to break her "If I look back, I am lost" principle, and reflect on her past life. Dany had never quite psychologically dealt with the fact that Drogo had been a slaver and that if she met him post-ACoK, she would consider him her enemy, a fundamental part of the local slave trade. In fact in her early AGoT chapters, she thinks of herself being sold to him like a slave. In this regard, Quaithe's "To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow" - together with her reunification with the Dothraki at the end of ADwD - promises that this aspect of her past may be dealt with in future.

I was far more impressed with how GRRM portrayed her relationship with Daario. She was not demonized for her sexual attraction to him and his character has served well as a good projection of her ID.

The weakest aspect of the portrayal of her sexual life was certainly her bicurious episode with Irri. Unless she gets a female paramour later, I don't see the purpose of that.

Personally, I haven't got the impression that she has been too hypersexualized by the text (aside of her sexual shenanigans with Drogo). It is true that she describes what is happening with her body often, but honestly, I am somaticly oversentive and self-aware of my body, and I tend to have similar thoughts throughout the day. Of course, other women may feel it differently.

Going by TWoW spoiler chapters, we are likely to get a couple more of sexually active preteens in the future, and I must say I wonder how GRRM tackles the issue with them.

All that said, I find other aspects of Dany's character far more interesting and important than her sexuality. Her draconic sense of justice - good or bad - is certainly something I can relate to. The complex feelings she has for her abusive brother. Her status as an eternal globetropper that seaches for a safe place to belong. Her internal conflict of Mhysa vs Mother of Dragons - her painstaking searching for finding the right ratio and getting them in harmony, so she could become an effective leader and ruler is fascinating, imho. She is such a rich character. I could talk about her for hours.

My #2 on the list would be Arya. It may be surprising, but the tomboy part of her character is the one I care least about. It is interesting in the relation to how she doesn't fit into the Westerosi society and how that informs her character (i.e., her low self-esteem and insecurity), but her passion for her hobbies itself leaves me cold am I have never exactly been a tomboy myself. However, she is not portrayed as "not like the other girls" for it, nor is she the type to blabber "I have only male friends" BS, which scores her character plenty of brownie points with me. Out of all the Stark children, she's also the one Stark child that thinks of her mother a lot, in spite of their differences. After Jon, Catelyn appears to be the person she longs to reunite with the most. Much like Daenerys, Arya is a character characterized with deep empathy for others as well as a firey temper, but due to diferent circumstances, she's been forced not to act freely at them.

The third one would be... Catelyn, I guess? I love in Catelyn many things that I love in her daughter Arya. I feel that these two are different on the outside, but very similar on the inside. Catelyn's as much impulsive and limited by Westerosi patriarchy as Arya, but she has learned to vent her tendencies though available means and adopted the Westerosi "patriarchy brain" to act in accordance to... which is both fascinating and frustrating.

Catelyn is a character that I have always adored as a fictional creaation, but had a hard time liking as a "person". On the whole, I think she is a very believable portrayal of a quasi-medieval noblewoman, with the good and the bad things that come with it.

She's also like the only POV female character that has a wholly positive relationship with another female character that becomes a POV - i.e., Brienne. That is, at least, until the Lady Stoneheart mess. Her behavior towards Brienne warmed me a lot towards her, because she seems to be the only person outside her family that she protects.

Unfortunately, Catelyn is also a prominent sufferer of the "Mother who Loses her Children Loses her Mind" syndrome that I really could do without. It happend to Catelyn in the moments before her death, it happened to her sister Lysa, it happened to Alannys Harlaw Greyjoy, it happened to Rhaenyra Targaryen, it is happeining to Cersei. Enough of that bullcrap please.

Otherwise, I have a great deal liking for Brienne of Tarth and Arianne Martell.

Brienne is a believable subversion of the tomboy trope, and in Arianne I like many things that I like in Dany - she gets to act on her ambition and sexual desire without getting a villainous treatment, but she lacks Dany's empathy and drive to attempt to change the world for the better. I do hope she will survive becoming Dany's antagonist. I just wish GRRM left out the description of her nipples... or the whole chapter from Arys Oakheart's POV.  

Melisandre is a character that I am very interested. So far she has been presented mostly as a mysterious boogie woman that knows how to do magic and serves as a mouthpiece for her religion. Only with her ADwD POV chapter, I have gotten the impression that there is a human being hidden deep beneath the priestess of Rh'llor.

Asha is a character that I don't feel strongly about either way. She is a fine gal and I don't dislike her, but she's the tomboy that GRRM played straight. That does not make her a bad character, just not a one that I can personally relate to much.

Cersei... let's just say that I used to empathize with Cersei before we got her POV. The sad thing is that she has said a lot of truthful things about Westerosi gender roles, double standard, and misogyny... but I feel that her utter evilness and stupidity in all other matters undermines the message. GRRM would have done better if Cersei had become sociopathic and hateful due to her treatment by Tywin and Robert instead of having been born a narcistic psychopath or whatever little girls that throw their friends down the well tend to be diagnosed with. She's the evil, ambitious queen that misuses her sexuality to get she wants played straight in all her glory, and she's delusional on the top of it. Bah, at least she has a good sense of humor, I guess. That said, the more people try to make her the sinful Eve to Jaime's innocent, mislead Adam, the more positively I am going to regard her (at least she owns being a villain and tries to think, as opposed to her twin).

The female characters that I think GRRM executed badly are the Sand Snakes, imho. I do not mind much, because they are such minor characters, but nontheless they are quite subpar as far as GRMM's usual standard goes. They are tropey and mostly one-dimensional. But, there is still hope for them, since the future books should focus on the Dornish plot.

Another fail (though not to the same extent) is Selyse, imho. It's not the idea that a nasty woman tried to self-realize through religion and her husband's career and social standing - that is quite believable. The part I abhorr is how the narrative supports making fun of her appearance - it is not that the other characters are being petty and insensitive, but that she does not seem to be extended any sympathy by the narrative for it (as opposed to Brienne).  Much like with Cersei, I feel GRRM lost an opportunity here.

Sansa is a difficult character for me. It's the character I have tried to like, but have not succeeded in doing so. Which is strange, because among all the female characters in ASoIaF she is perhaps the one most like me (with some Brienne and Dany thrown in). She's a character we're not meant to like when the story starts, and it seems it stuck with me. While all of the other POV child characters are too clever and mature for their age, AGoT Sansa goes the other direction, although it gets better later on. She has moments when she shows some spirit and I genuinely like her, but most of time I'm not sure what she's really thinking and feeling (the case in point being her treatment of Sweetrobin), and I just don't quite trust her. It also does not help that some of her qualities that I possess are the negative ones that I try to curb in myself (for example, her screaming at Arya in AGoT... not that I have ever told a loved one that they are ugly and should die, but you get the idea).