Did Tywin Lannister commit an act of kinslaying by approving Robb Stark's demise?

[The Sunland Lord]

Way before the Red Wedding, Tyrion Lannister and Sansa Stark were already wed. That makes Tyrion and Robb Stark brothers-in-law and Sansa Stark is Tywin Lannister's daughter-in-law.

So after his son's wedding to Sansa Stark, Tywin was aware and supported the Red Wedding, where Robb Stark would be and was assassinated (add Catelyn who should've been taken captive but was murdered too). 

Is by Westerosi standards, this act considered a kinslaying?

If the kinslayers are accursed in the eyes of all the Gods old and new, was Tywin's death via kinslaying his punishment?

It might be also that Robb, by executing his distant relative Rickard Karstark, as Gods' punishment is murdered via approval by his not-blood-related-relative Tywin Lannister.

Was this chain of events meant to be George Martin's story spicery? 

 

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It might be also that Robb, by executing his distant relative Rickard Karstark, as Gods' punishment is murdered via approval by his not-blood-related-relative Tywin Lannister.

I don’t think killing your daughter-in-law’s brother would be considered kinslaying, it seems too distant to me. Do the books say whether kinslaying applies to relatives-by-marriage? 

I don’t think we get a clear answer on how close a relative has to be to be considered kinslaying either. If you’re allowed to marry a first cousin does that mean you can kill a first cousin without it being kinslaying? Do the surnames matter? Is it more acceptable for Robb to murder Edmure rather than Benjen? Jon himself says the Karstarks are no more related to the present Starks than half the noble families in the North, so I wouldn’t consider Rickard Karstark kin of Robb Stark, unless the male line is what matters. 

[Tygett Lannister]

Kinslaying is only for blood relatives.

[Lion of the West]

35 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Kinslaying is only for blood relatives.

Pretty much so. That's my take on it as well.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Kinslaying is only for blood relatives.

This seems to be the case. One of the victims of the Red Wedding was Lucas Blackwood, and Walder Frey married Alyssa Blackwood.

[Adam Yozza]

44 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

This seems to be the case. One of the victims of the Red Wedding was Lucas Blackwood, and Walder Frey married Alyssa Blackwood.

Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if there was some kinslaying that happened at the Red Wedding given how many knights and minor nobles would have died there that may have blood relations to Lord Walder.

But no I don't think Tywin's involvement is kinslaying. My take: kinslaying has to be between blood relatives.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

This seems to be the case. One of the victims of the Red Wedding was Lucas Blackwood, and Walder Frey married Alyssa Blackwood.

Tytos does resent this in ADWD, at least.

Quote

Lucas was murdered at the Red Wedding. Walder Frey's fourth wife was a Blackwood, but kinship counts for no more than guest right at the Twins. I should like to bury Lucas beneath the tree, but the Freys have not yet seen fit to return his bones to me."

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Not Kinslaying but maybe Conspiracy to Violate Guest Rights or something as he obviously gave his support to the violators and promised that he would "have there backs" per say if anything should arise from it.

[Tygett Lannister]

22 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Not Kinslaying but maybe Conspiracy to Violate Guest Rights or something as he obviously gave his support to the violators and promised that he would "have there backs" per say if anything should arise from it.

What monster, he should let Robb be and make sure war takes at least few more years.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Robb had already pretty much legally disowned Sansa by then anyway. 

[Adam Yozza]

3 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What monster, he should let Robb be and make sure war takes at least few more years.

Planning to end the war didn't require the Red Wedding. Frey could have just locked himself up in his castle and let Tarly and Clegane march up to the Twins and crush them. Frey went down the path of the Red Wedding because he was petty and wanted personal revenge.

[Tygett Lannister]

1 minute ago, Adam Yozza said:

Planning to end the war didn't require the Red Wedding. Frey could have just locked himself up in his castle and let Tarly and Clegane march up to the Twins and crush them. Frey went down the path of the Red Wedding because he was petty and wanted personal revenge.

Yes many lives saved! Oh, wait,  more people die again.

[zandru]

Even if some kinslaying took place, I doubt that Tywin (Crimes Against Humanity) Lannister would have cared.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What monster, he should let Robb be and make sure war takes at least few more years.

I don't know how he would be viewed by the faith or public if and once the truth about the red wedding comes out. He does have plausible deniability since it was not his roof nor his personal guest.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Planning to end the war didn't require the Red Wedding. Frey could have just locked himself up in his castle and let Tarly and Clegane march up to the Twins and crush them. Frey went down the path of the Red Wedding because he was petty and wanted personal revenge.

Robb did make him look pretty bad.   This is my day for Frey/Tyrell similarities, so let me add to your personal revenge that Walder the social climber who could get NO WHERE with anyone in the Riverlands, seized the opportunity to latch on to that Lannister alliance deal, marrying another Lannister and having that alliance.    If I'd been there I would have had a lot of confidence saying Tywin and I were gooooooood friends.  

[A Ghost of Someone]

In the books atleast, there are concerns about what really happened there. The faith in the books are a bit more serious and have some values and honor to them. The Freys have this twisted story about Robb turning into a Werewolf but saying he warged, Tywin does not confess to anyone except his inner circle and Roose Bolton is keeping his mouth shut. There were hostages taken too in order to head off reprisals. There is even mention that the Faith want "someone" or a group to pay for the attrocity that was done there. Consequences by other than the effected directly houses have to be considered.

[Adam Yozza]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Robb did make him look pretty bad.   This is my day for Frey/Tyrell similarities, so let me add to your personal revenge that Walder the social climber who could get NO WHERE with anyone in the Riverlands, seized the opportunity to latch on to that Lannister alliance deal, marrying another Lannister and having that alliance.    If I'd been there I would have had a lot of confidence saying Tywin and I were gooooooood friends.  

Yeah, Robb messed up badly and was 100% at fault. But really, the 'punishment' did not fit the crime, even for a medieval world.

Also, what exactly has that Lannister deal gotten Walder Frey so far? A few dead sons and grandsons courtesy of one of his pissed off victims. Some more dead family in the North where he is universally hated. The hatred (not just scorn anymore, burning hatred) of all the other houses in the Riverlands and the North (excepting the Boltons themselves). Even Dustin and Ryswell; Roose's only 'real' supporters; hate them and want revenge. His good buddy Tywin? Dead. Tywin's replacement, Kevan? Dead. King Joffrey, who; while mostly incompetent; was at least of age? Also dead. Roose Bolton? Trapped dealing with Stannis Baratheon while surrounded by men who want him dead. Beyond the siege of Riverrun, Frey has received no support from the Lannisters and nor will he, because Cersei is going to be too busy fighting the Faith, the Tyrell's and Aegon to send help even if she cared to; which she doesn't.

To sum up, Frey earned him house a marriage to a Lannister and Riverrun. That's about it. On the flip side he has no friends, no allies (or at least none that will help him), no support and a lot of angry people looking for vengeance. If I was Walder Frey at the end of Dance I'd be very, very scared and wondering if a bit of petty revenge and some short-lived power boost was worth it.

[Adam Yozza]

18 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Yes many lives saved! Oh, wait,  more people die again.

Maybe, but they would have died on the battlefield. It would have been more honourable. Not to mention, if they'd been defeated in battle the Northern Lords might be a little bit more willing to remain peaceful than they are knowing that the Frey's betrayed and murdered their family and liege and broke the sacred tradition of guest right to do so.

Besides, would it have been that many more that died in a battle outside the Twins? Robb had less than 4000 with him when he got there. Caught of guard, trapped against the Twins with a river on one side and Randyll Tarly and Gregor Clegane's army on the other would be a slaughter for the North. So in that regard, only the same casualties as the wedding itself caused. Minimal losses for the attackers given the would have had superioir numbers and been ready for battle. Hell, this tactic may have cost less lives not more.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

On 11/15/2017 at 5:14 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

So after his son's wedding to Sansa Stark, Tywin was aware and supported the Red Wedding, where Robb Stark (was he even his son-in-law?) would be and was assassinated (add Catelyn who should've been taken captive but was murdered too).

No, Robb Stark would not be considered to be Tywin Lannister's son-in-law, nor is Robb any more related to Tywin after the Tyrion/Sansa marriage than he was before that marriage.

 

On 11/15/2017 at 5:14 AM, The Sunland Lord said:

If the kinslayers are accursed in the eyes of all the Gods old and new, was Tywin's death via kinslaying his punishment?

Tywin's death was provoked entirely by his specific sins against Tyrion, not by any generalized sins against the gods old and new.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Yeah, Robb messed up badly and was 100% at fault. But really, the 'punishment' did not fit the crime, even for a medieval world.

Also, what exactly has that Lannister deal gotten Walder Frey so far? A few dead sons and grandsons courtesy of one of his pissed off victims. Some more dead family in the North where he is universally hated. The hatred (not just scorn anymore, burning hatred) of all the other houses in the Riverlands and the North (excepting the Boltons themselves). Even Dustin and Ryswell; Roose's only 'real' supporters; hate them and want revenge. His good buddy Tywin? Dead. Tywin's replacement, Kevan? Dead. King Joffrey, who; while mostly incompetent; was at least of age? Also dead. Roose Bolton? Trapped dealing with Stannis Baratheon while surrounded by men who want him dead. Beyond the siege of Riverrun, Frey has received no support from the Lannisters and nor will he, because Cersei is going to be too busy fighting the Faith, the Tyrell's and Aegon to send help even if she cared to; which she doesn't.

To sum up, Frey earned him house a marriage to a Lannister and Riverrun. That's about it. On the flip side he has no friends, no allies (or at least none that will help him), no support and a lot of angry people looking for vengeance. If I was Walder Frey at the end of Dance I'd be very, very scared and wondering if a bit of petty revenge and some short-lived power boost was worth it.

It's been a minute since I've felt so good about Walder Frey.    Of course intention means little when hundreds if not thousands die and you're quite right, what has this Lannister alliance really done for old Walder.    Good stuff.