Bael's Bastard

Rhaegar persuading Aerys to summon Tywin

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If Rhaegar was able to persuade Aerys to swallow his pride and summon Tywin after the Battle of the Bells, then surely he would have had to persuade him that they had no hope of securing Tywin's help without incentives? 

Did the message meant to summon Tywin just demand he do his duty to his king with no other incentive?

Did it merely offer him the same office he had resigned with no other incentive?

Did it offer Prince Viserys for Cersei, and/or the release of Jaime from his vows? Or offer something else?

Did Rhaegar settle for getting his father to agree in general to summon Tywin, while offering these or other incentives to Tywin without his father's knowledge?

What do you think Rhaegar persuading Aerys to summon Tywin consisted of? What do you think the message intended to summon, but presumably never reaching, Tywin consisted of?

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

If Rhaegar was able to persuade Aerys to swallow his pride and summon Tywin after the Battle of the Bells, then surely he would have had to persuade him that they had no hope of securing Tywin's help without incentives? 

Did the message meant to summon Tywin just demand he do his duty to his king with no other incentive?

Did it merely offer him the same office he had resigned with no other incentive?

Did it offer Prince Viserys for Cersei, and/or the release of Jaime from his vows? Or offer something else?

Did Rhaegar settle for getting his father to agree in general to summon Tywin, while offering these or other incentives to Tywin without his father's knowledge?

What do you think Rhaegar persuading Aerys to summon Tywin consisted of? What do you think the message intended to summon, but presumably never reaching, Tywin consisted of?

As far as I know the messages did reach Tywin but he wasn't explicitly made Hand of the King and thus Tywin didn't want to come back to King Aerys. Its really simple in that for many different reasons Tywin didn't want to be, or be seen for that matter, as a guy you can mistreat anyway you want publically and there's no effect from it. The way Aerys had treated Tywin, Aerys really should have been on his knees begging forgiveness for Tywin to fight for him.

So I think that it was just a general summoning of Tywin, perhpas they tried to sweeten the deal when Tywin didn't respond but I think that at not point was Tywin offered what he wanted to join; the Handship.

EDITED: On the other hand, since the king is absolute, maybe Aerys was demanding that Tywin would be on his knees and beg forgiveness?

Edited by LionoftheWest

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You have to factor in the Citadel/Maester Conspiracy that is elaborated on elsewhere. The essential element is that Maester's prefer a world without magic (and thus dragons). There is the possibility the correspondence between all families involved in Robert's Rebellion was manipulated in order to ensure the events that occurred.

While I dislike how she fails to cite her resources and give credit where credit is due (especially because she receives ample donations), Secrets of the Citadel does a good job at laying this all out:

 

Edited by Traverys

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9 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

As far as I know the messages did reach Tywin but he wasn't explicitly made Hand of the King and thus Tywin didn't want to come back to King Aerys. Its really simple in that for many different reasons Tywin didn't want to be, or be seen for that matter, as a guy you can mistreat anyway you want publically and there's no effect from it. The way Aerys had treated Tywin, Aerys really should have been on his knees begging forgiveness for Tywin to fight for him.

So I think that it was just a general summoning of Tywin, perhpas they tried to sweeten the deal when Tywin didn't respond but I think that at not point was Tywin offered what he wanted to join; the Handship.

EDITED: On the other hand, since the king is absolute, maybe Aerys was demanding that Tywin would be on his knees and beg forgiveness?

@LionoftheWest

I suspect that the summons never reached Tywin, as Kevan seems to have no knowledge of it. I don't see any reason Tywin would have hid it from him had he received it. I think Grand Maester Pycelle ensured that the message was never received by Tywin. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

"Old Lord Merryweather's inaction had allowed the rebellion to take root and spread, and Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match Robert's own youth and vigor. "Too soon," Lord Tywin Lannister had declared when word of the king's choice had reached Casterly Rock. "Connington is too young, too bold, too eager for glory."

The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more … but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown."

Rhaegar must have known that they could not hope to lure Tywin back to his old office with no other incentive than the office itself. Tywin had already willingly resigned the office, unlike Aerys's failed Hands. And he had resigned the office over Jaime being named to the Kingsguard. I would think that Rhaegar would have known they would have to offer Tywin very good terms for him to return. In a sense, restoring Tywin as Hand and getting Jaime released from his vows would just be righting wrongs. That is why I suspect he may have been willing to offer Viserys for Cersei. But if any of that is true, I could also see him not being up front with Aerys about the terms he intended to offer to Tywin. It might have been enough of a task just to convince Aerys to summon Tywin on whatever terms.

I am not even sure who is alive anymore who would even be able to provide insight on what happened with that summons, the contents of that summons, or the contents of Rhaegar's argument persuading Aerys to summon Tywin. But that detail always stuck out to me, especially once Kevan's Epilogue seemed to indicate that Tywin may have never received the summons at all. Maybe Jaime knows more, and his POV will eventually elaborate further. Or maybe it will just never be known.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@LionoftheWest

I suspect that the summons never reached Tywin, as Kevan seems to have no knowledge of it. I don't see any reason Tywin would have hid it from him had he received it. I think Grand Maester Pycelle ensured that the message was never received by Tywin.

 

I'm entirely sure there's a section with Kevan thinking about the summonings from King's Landing and where Tywin refuses to come because he isn't returned to his old position as Hand again. But I can't find it so I'll not try to push the point. By all accounts it does seem that Tywin did not received the summonings. Although I don't really get why Pycelle, a Lannister man, would prevent summonings from going to Lord Lannister.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 Rhaegar must have known that they could not hope to lure Tywin back to his old office with no other incentive than the office itself. Tywin had already willingly resigned the office, unlike Aerys's failed Hands. And he had resigned the office over Jaime being named to the Kingsguard. I would think that Rhaegar would have known they would have to offer Tywin very good terms for him to return. In a sense, restoring Tywin as Hand and getting Jaime released from his vows would just be righting wrongs. That is why I suspect he may have been willing to offer Viserys for Cersei. But if any of that is true, I could also see him not being up front with Aerys about the terms he intended to offer to Tywin. It might have been enough of a task just to convince Aerys to summon Tywin on whatever terms.

While true that a marriage could sweeten the deal for Tywin, to marry into the royal House itself is not what Tywin wanted. He wanted his grandson to sit the Iron Throne and not be a secondary cadet branch destined for obscurity.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I am not even sure who is alive anymore who would even be able to provide insight on what happened with that summons, the contents of that summons, or the contents of Rhaegar's argument persuading Aerys to summon Tywin. But that detail always stuck out to me, especially once Kevan's Epilogue seemed to indicate that Tywin may have never received the summons at all. Maybe Jaime knows more, and his POV will eventually elaborate further. Or maybe it will just never be known.

Well, the maester at Casterly Rock might be alive from that time and if so I would expect him to know a thing or two about what messanges came with ravens. I think that Creylen, or maester Creylen, is his name according to the appendix of A Game of Thrones.

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Knowing how stupid Aerys and company are they probably DEMANDED Tywin do his duty and bring his army to KL to defend his king blah blah blah.........

Tywin probably laughed out loud and burned the letter. 

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I am not even sure who is alive anymore who would even be able to provide insight on what happened with that summons, the contents of that summons, or the contents of Rhaegar's argument persuading Aerys to summon Tywin.

Barristan Selmy might be able to give us some insight into that conversation as well as Jaime. At the very least, it sounds like Jaime may have been present when Rhaegar had his talk with Aerys, if we go by what he says in ASOS. Cersei was at Casterly Rock, so she might be able to give us some insight into her father's thinking. She knew that he was planning on marrying Jaime to Lysa Tully, so I imagine she might know more about what went down during the war and where Tywin's head was at.

It seems to me like Tywin wanted to enter the war on his own terms and answer the summons in his own time. When he says that Jon Connington was too bold, to eager for glory, I'm thinking Tywin wanted the glory as well, that when all was said and done, that he was the one who came and rescued the Targaryens in their hour of need. That gives him even more power over them.

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Just now, LionoftheWest said:

I'm entirely sure there's a section with Kevan thinking about the summonings from King's Landing and where Tywin refuses to come because he isn't returned to his old position as Hand again. But I can't find it so I'll not try to push the point. By all accounts it does seem that Tywin did not received the summonings. Although I don't really get why Pycelle, a Lannister man, would prevent summonings from going to Lord Lannister.

In the ADWD Epilogue, we are told that Kevan had expected Aerys to have no choice but to summon Tywin after the Battle of the Bells, but that he had turned to Chelsted and Rossart instead. Perhaps Tywin did receive the summons and just kept Kevan in the dark, but I don't see why he would have done that.

I believe Pycelle genuinely thought the world of Tywin and his abilities, and wanted him to be king of Westeros. But I suspect that Pycelle's ultimate loyalty was to an anti-Targaryen faction at the Citadel, and that his support for Tywin was within the context of a plot to overthrow the Targaryens.

That would have been a tough spot, as Tywin was one of Aerys's oldest friends, and it took many years for their relationship to deteriorate to the point of no return. So even if Pycelle were plotting in ways which would benefit and elevate Tywin, he wouldn't have been able to let Tywin in on those plots.

In such a scenario, Pycelle would have had good reason to prevent Tywin from receiving the summons, especially if he believed Tywin might agree to return in support of the Targaryens. That summons, if received, was a threat to keep the Targaryens on the throne, and Tywin remaining a servant of the king. Never receiving a summons might not only keep Tywin on the sidelines, but might harden his heart further toward Aerys.

It would have also given Pycelle the power of knowledge that neither Tywin nor Aerys were privy to, which he was later able to use in the Sack of King's Landing. Aerys would have believed that the summons had been sent and received when Tywin arrived at the gates, and Pycelle would have been manipulating that belief when he counseled Aerys to open the gates for him.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

While true that a marriage could sweeten the deal for Tywin, to marry into the royal House itself is not what Tywin wanted. He wanted his grandson to sit the Iron Throne and not be a secondary cadet branch destined for obscurity.

It may not be what Tywin wanted, but it was what they had to offer, and Jaime seems to at least consider the possibility that Tywin might have settled for Prince Viserys in the event that Elia didn't die. The reason I suspect that Rhaegar might have offered Viserys is because restoring the Handship and Jaime would just be righting wrongs, not offering anything more.

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well, the maester at Casterly Rock might be alive from that time and if so I would expect him to know a thing or two about what messanges came with ravens. I think that Creylen, or maester Creylen, is his name according to the appendix of A Game of Thrones.

If the summons did make it, and it is the same maester, that is definitely a possibility.

 

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45 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Knowing how stupid Aerys and company are they probably DEMANDED Tywin do his duty and bring his army to KL to defend his king blah blah blah.........

Tywin probably laughed out loud and burned the letter. 

I could certainly see Aerys sending such a demand on his own, but since Rhaegar persuaded Aerys to summon Tywin, I would think he would know that they would have to entice him, and there was no chance they would get Tywin's forces just by demanding he do his duty.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I could certainly see Aerys sending such a demand on his own, but since Rhaegar persuaded Aerys to summon Tywin, I would think he would know that they would have to entice him, and there was no chance they would get Tywin's forces just by demanding he do his duty.

Rhaegar, I have no doubt, knew that they would have to entice Tywin to their side. But I can imagine it took everything he had just to get Aerys to agree to send the letter. Even if he could suggest a possible offer, Aerys might pull a Duskendale and ignore Rhaegar out of spite. If the summons was sent (my personal belief is that it wasn't, whether through conspiracy or Aerys being stubborn) then it would most likely just a demand for the armies of the west.

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Only thing can persuade Tywin is the handship and marriage of Rhaegar and Cersei. Nothing less. Rhaegar already either annulled his marriage with Elia or married Lyanna as his second wife. He only needed to either annul his second marriage again or married Cersei as third wife. Either way, Tywin will be ok. 

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