Darry Man

Where Whores Go

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No living dragon could match Vhagar for size or ferocity, but Jace reasoned that if Vermax, Syrax, and Caraxes were to descend on King’s Landing all at once, even “that hoary old bitch” would be unable to withstand them. 

Our friend Lucifer Means Lightbringer has a great post on the possible symbolism of Visenya Targaryen in relation to the ice-and-fire-moon hypothesis of ASOIAF.

As usual, @LmL uses the context of small bits of information revealed by GRRM to help uncover symbolism of greater significance. In this case, when determining the color of Visenya's dragon, Vhagar, we find that this description from TWOAIF symbolically refers to a white (and possibly icy) dragon:

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Hoary means “greyish white,” or “white with age,” and its synonyms include “snowy” and “frosty.” Thus we can probably assume that Vhagar is a white or greyish white dragon, and most tellingly, the word “hoary” carries with it the connotation of snow and ice. Thus, Vhagar is a highly suitable mount for Visenya the ice queen.

Better still – and this is one of my favorite bits of symbolism, actually – we find that 120 years later during the Dance of the Dragons, Vhagar is ridden by Aemond One Eye Targaryen, who has replaced his wounded eye with a blue star sapphire. Thus, if Vhagar is indeed a hoary white dragon, Aemond’s blue star eye makes this pair an perfect analog of the ice dragon constellation...

Just a few thoughts on the “hoary old bitch” thing, which I found interesting.

"Hoar" just isn’t just a synonym of snow or ice, but to be a bit more precise (and pedantic!), it is the frost that encases solids on a particularly humid, cold day. When Jon sees those trees encased in ice, they are covered in hoarfrost. Hoar is literally the “magic north of the Wall.” Thus it’s an especially apt term.

So, whilst reading about the Iron Islands in TWOIAF, it came to me that this might be related to why the Ironborn who took over the riverlands were from House Hoare. Not sure how this jibes with the Hoare’s having “black blood” but it cannot be a coincidence to call these raiders, essentially, “ice men”.

And where do Hoares go? The God’s Eye.

Given GRRM’s predilection for puns, this got me wondering if he’s playing his usual rhyming games. Does “hoar” = “whore”? After all, assuming GRRM doesn’t have a prostitution fetish, there is an especially large number of references to whores in ASOIAF. Maybe hoar and whore are meant to allude to the ice-covered Others?

Lo and behold, in the TWOIAF Driftwood Crowns section, we see this:

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A generation later, the Lannisters captured the town of Kayce when Herrock the Whoreson blew his great gold-banded horn and the town whores opened a postern gate to his men.

IOW, a son of the Others blows a horn, and the rest of the Others breach a wall.

Or how about applying the hoar=whore=Others hypothesis to the rotten old uncles Umber? The cognomen “Crowfood” Umber certainly implies that he’s a dead man walking, but “Whoresbane” Umber? He’s someone the icy Others might want to avoid.

Of course there are far too many whores in this story (literal, not just metaphorical) to think that every whore represents the Others in every circumstance. However, it does make me want to pay more attention when this term is being used deliberately in the presence of a sun-king figure.

Given that the Night’s King paid a significant price in exchange for her icy embrace, the Night’s Queen could truly be considered a hoary whore.

So, to answer Tyrion's incessant question, where do whores go? To the God's Eye.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Darry Man said:

Our friend Lucifer Means Lightbringer has a great post on the possible symbolism of Visenya Targaryen in relation to the ice-and-fire-moon hypothesis of ASOIAF.

As usual, @LmL uses the context of small bits of information revealed by GRRM to help uncover symbolism of greater significance. In this case, when determining the color of Visenya's dragon, Vhagar, we find that this description from TWOAIF symbolically refers to a white (and possibly icy) dragon:

Just a few thoughts on the “hoary old bitch” thing, which I found interesting.

"Hoar" just isn’t just a synonym of snow or ice, but to be a bit more precise (and pedantic!), it is the frost that encases solids on a particularly humid, cold day. When Jon sees those trees encased in ice, they are covered in hoarfrost. Hoar is literally the “magic north of the Wall.” Thus it’s an especially apt term.

So, whilst reading about the Iron Islands in TWOIAF, it came to me that this might be related to why the Ironborn who took over the riverlands were from House Hoare. Not sure how this jibes with the Hoare’s having “black blood” but it cannot be a coincidence to call these raiders, essentially, “ice men”.

And where do Hoares go? The God’s Eye.

Given GRRM’s predilection for puns, this got me wondering if he’s playing his usual rhyming games. Does “hoar” = “whore”? After all, assuming GRRM doesn’t have a prostitution fetish, there is an especially large number of references to whores in ASOIAF. Maybe hoar and whore are meant to allude to the ice-covered Others?

Lo and behold, in the TWOIAF Driftwood Crowns section, we see this:

IOW, a son of the Others blows a horn, and the rest of the Others breach a wall.

Or how about applying the hoar=whore=Others hypothesis to the rotten old uncles Umber? The cognomen “Crowfood” Umber certainly implies that he’s a dead man walking, but “Whoresbane” Umber? He’s someone the icy Others might want to avoid.

Of course there are far too many whores in this story (literal, not just metaphorical) to think that every whore represents the Others in every circumstance. However, it does make me want to pay more attention when this term is being used deliberately in the presence of a sun-king figure.

Given that the Night’s King paid a significant price in exchange for her icy embrace, the Night’s Queen could truly be considered a hoary whore.

So, to answer Tyrion's incessant question, where do whores go? To the God's Eye.

 

 

Are you sure the answer isn't to The Wall?

After all, Harren the Black had a brother who was Lord Commander and kept his vow... his blood was doubly black, and it appears he was the last true Hoare.

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1 hour ago, Darry Man said:

Our friend Lucifer Means Lightbringer has a great post on the possible symbolism of Visenya Targaryen in relation to the ice-and-fire-moon hypothesis of ASOIAF.

As usual, @LmL uses the context of small bits of information revealed by GRRM to help uncover symbolism of greater significance. In this case, when determining the color of Visenya's dragon, Vhagar, we find that this description from TWOAIF symbolically refers to a white (and possibly icy) dragon:

Just a few thoughts on the “hoary old bitch” thing, which I found interesting.

"Hoar" just isn’t just a synonym of snow or ice, but to be a bit more precise (and pedantic!), it is the frost that encases solids on a particularly humid, cold day. When Jon sees those trees encased in ice, they are covered in hoarfrost. Hoar is literally the “magic north of the Wall.” Thus it’s an especially apt term.

So, whilst reading about the Iron Islands in TWOIAF, it came to me that this might be related to why the Ironborn who took over the riverlands were from House Hoare. Not sure how this jibes with the Hoare’s having “black blood” but it cannot be a coincidence to call these raiders, essentially, “ice men”.

And where do Hoares go? The God’s Eye.

Given GRRM’s predilection for puns, this got me wondering if he’s playing his usual rhyming games. Does “hoar” = “whore”? After all, assuming GRRM doesn’t have a prostitution fetish, there is an especially large number of references to whores in ASOIAF. Maybe hoar and whore are meant to allude to the ice-covered Others?

Lo and behold, in the TWOIAF Driftwood Crowns section, we see this:

IOW, a son of the Others blows a horn, and the rest of the Others breach a wall.

Or how about applying the hoar=whore=Others hypothesis to the rotten old uncles Umber? The cognomen “Crowfood” Umber certainly implies that he’s a dead man walking, but “Whoresbane” Umber? He’s someone the icy Others might want to avoid.

Of course there are far too many whores in this story (literal, not just metaphorical) to think that every whore represents the Others in every circumstance. However, it does make me want to pay more attention when this term is being used deliberately in the presence of a sun-king figure.

Given that the Night’s King paid a significant price in exchange for her icy embrace, the Night’s Queen could truly be considered a hoary whore.

So, to answer Tyrion's incessant question, where do whores go? To the God's Eye.

 

 

I think you have caught something interesting with this because Tysha is the "Sailor's Wife" in Braavos with Tyrion's daughter Lanna(she is worth thrice as many as others, as befits a lannister) Not only is Braavos a series of islands but do you know where Sailor's Wife go in particular?

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The other whores said that the Sailor's Wife visited the Isle of the Gods on the days when her flower was in bloom, and knew all the gods who lived there, even the ones that Braavos had forgotten. They said she went to pray for her first husband, her true husband, who had been lost at sea when she was a girl no older than Lanna. "She thinks that if she finds the right god, maybe he will send the winds and blow her old love back to her," said one-eyed Yna, who had known her longest, "but I pray it never happens. Her love is dead, I could taste that in her blood. If he ever should come back to her, it will be a corpse."

Isle of the Gods.

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The Others are covered in icy armor, which has no real color of its own but takes on the hue of its surroundings. They are described as "pale," however. In the same vein, just as Hoarfrost appears white, as it is crystalline water, but it also has no color. 

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A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

And then, as noted in this earlier essay by @LmL, we see what lies beneath the frosty hoar (from aSoS):

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In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too.

 

Edited by Darry Man

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37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think you have caught something interesting with this because Tysha is the "Sailor's Wife" in Braavos with Tyrion's daughter Lanna(she is worth thrice as many as others, as befits a lannister) Not only is Braavos a series of islands but do you know where Sailor's Wife go in particular?

Isle of the Gods.

Great find! I haven't dug into all these "whore" references yet, but it looks promising!

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20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Are you sure the answer isn't to The Wall?

After all, Harren the Black had a brother who was Lord Commander and kept his vow... his blood was doubly black, and it appears he was the last true Hoare.

The Others are going through the Wall and marching south. Some think it's to King's Landing, but it seems there might be a big battle brewing at the God's Eye (see here, among other theories).

A Hoare as LC of the NW is definitely interesting, though. It fits the symbolism.

Edited by Darry Man

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2 minutes ago, Darry Man said:

The Others are going through the Wall and marching south. Some think it's to King's Landing, but there seems there might be a big battle brewing at the God's Eye (see here, among other theories).

A Hoare as LC of the NW is definitely interesting, though. It fits the symbolism.

I also always wanted to think that there is something to the word "Hoar" being most often seen in relation to "Frost"... of course Frost wrote the poem from which the series takes it's name...

But not sure where I'm going with it...

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14 hours ago, Darry Man said:

Not sure how this jibes with the Hoare’s having “black blood”

Perhaps your link stays here : "bastard blood" is "black blood" and Snow is a name for winter's bastards.

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18 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think you have caught something interesting with this because Tysha is the "Sailor's Wife" in Braavos with Tyrion's daughter Lanna(she is worth thrice as many as others, as befits a lannister)

Tyrion's daughter? Unlikely, as poor Tysha was raped by 30 or so other men. However, due to their marriage, one could CALL Lanna "Tyrion's daughter" and charge proportionally, even though her actual biological father could have been ... anyone.

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18 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I also always wanted to think that there is something to the word "Hoar" being most often seen in relation to "Frost"... of course Frost wrote the poem from which the series takes it's name...

But not sure where I'm going with it...

One of the castles along the Wall is named "Hoarfrost" FWIW

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Tyrion's daughter? Unlikely, as poor Tysha was raped by 30 or so other men. However, due to their marriage, one could CALL Lanna "Tyrion's daughter" and charge proportionally, even though her actual biological father could have been ... anyone.

Possible but Tysha herself can know if Lanna was conceived in the fortnight before the rape and while tysha was dark haired Lanna has the gold hair of a Lannister. How many of the guards do you think had the Lannister coloring?

We don't see that many blondes around (apart from Lannisters).

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Possible but Tysha herself can know if Lanna was conceived in the fortnight before the rape and while tysha was dark haired Lanna has the gold hair of a Lannister. How many of the guards do you think had the Lannister coloring?

We don't see that many blondes around (apart from Lannisters).

Tysha very likely would NOT know in a fortnight or less whether she was pregnant. They didn't have those little stick things then, and typically, a woman's first clue would be missing a period.

Re: Blondes. Lannister guards, retainers, etc would be more likely than most to be blonde - remember the "first night" rights of lords? They went on until relatively recently. Besides, Tyrion has weird black and blonde hair, not the "true" Lanniser gold.

Who else is blonde? Brienne of Tarth. Ser Duncan the Tall (probably an ancestor). The Velaryions - all of 'em. Blonde hair alone does not prove paternity. And just because a named character isn't described as blonde, we shouldn't assume there are few to none!

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5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Tysha very likely would NOT know in a fortnight or less whether she was pregnant. They didn't have those little stick things then, and typically, a woman's first clue would be missing a period.

Re: Blondes. Lannister guards, retainers, etc would be more likely than most to be blonde - remember the "first night" rights of lords? They went on until relatively recently. Besides, Tyrion has weird black and blonde hair, not the "true" Lanniser gold.

Who else is blonde? Brienne of Tarth. Ser Duncan the Tall (probably an ancestor). The Velaryions - all of 'em. Blonde hair alone does not prove paternity. And just because a named character isn't described as blonde, we shouldn't assume there are few to none!

Tyrion was a Chimera. He may have been entirely a regular Lannister in the parts that mattered. First night doesn't mean every time a lord takes his right a pregnancy will ocur nor does it mean every single lord will take their rights. Even if they did and a pregnancy occured, then the child may not look like a Lannister or the carried Lannister looks may be lost over the generations the right was removed.

Putting everything aside, this isn't real life so if a Lannister looking child was born to a woman who married to a Lannister, then even if there were dozens of possible fathers it would be the Lannister's or else why show her to us?

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Putting everything aside, this isn't real life

Aww! And George RR went to such trouble to include the gritty, often horrible realism of the Middle Ages!

1 hour ago, Freys Injustice said:

all whores go to heaven

Bless you, FI. They probably ought to; many spent enough time in hell.

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On 11/16/2017 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

I think you have caught something interesting with this because Tysha is the "Sailor's Wife" in Braavos with Tyrion's daughter Lanna(she is worth thrice as many as others, as befits a lannister) Not only is Braavos a series of islands but do you know where Sailor's Wife go in particular?

Isle of the Gods.

I think this is outstanding, good job corvo and @Darry Man !!

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On 16/11/2017 at 6:23 PM, Darry Man said:

... Given GRRM’s predilection for puns, this got me wondering if he’s playing his usual rhyming games. Does “hoar” = “whore”? After all, assuming GRRM doesn’t have a prostitution fetish, there is an especially large number of references to whores in ASOIAF. Maybe hoar and whore are meant to allude to the ice-covered Others?

Great idea, which makes sense of all Tyrion's ramblings about whores.

On 16/11/2017 at 6:23 PM, Darry Man said:

... Of course there are far too many whores in this story (literal, not just metaphorical) to think that every whore represents the Others in every circumstance. However, it does make me want to pay more attention when this term is being used deliberately in the presence of a sun-king figure.

I don't know any sun kings, but we clearly have a sun queen in the shape of Cersei - a girl as lovely as the rising sun, with children as golden as the sun, and latterly titled 'The Light of the West'. By your theory then it's a bad omen that Cersei is accused of being a whore and fucking Moon Boy. But ok, the old sun will die in winter, and spring will have a new sun. It occurs to me this young sun is most likely Lanna - there are very few candidates - and it's very ominous that she's been made a whore already.

On 16/11/2017 at 6:23 PM, Darry Man said:

... So, to answer Tyrion's incessant question, where do whores go? To the God's Eye.

We've got two books to go - so at this stage there be plenty of foreshadowing in place for the end-game. Most likely then, the God's Eye stands for the eye of the god, the bull's eye, the final target - and that is where Tyrion must go. Assuming Winterfell has a role as a sort of a base-camp, this target is in the far north.

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On 11/18/2017 at 8:07 AM, Springwatch said:

I don't know any sun kings, but we clearly have a sun queen in the shape of Cersei - a girl as lovely as the rising sun, with children as golden as the sun, and latterly titled 'The Light of the West'. By your theory then it's a bad omen that Cersei is accused of being a whore and fucking Moon Boy. But ok, the old sun will die in winter, and spring will have a new sun. It occurs to me this young sun is most likely Lanna - there are very few candidates - and it's very ominous that she's been made a whore already.

In his latest livecast, @LmL brought forth the notion that Cersei was symbolically transformed into an ice-moon figure when she was imprisoned and shaved bald in the Great Sept, the huge white structure on Visenya's Hill. This represented her death and rebirth, and then she walks back to the sun-king's Red Keep in her pale glory.

 

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On 11/16/2017 at 1:23 PM, Darry Man said:

this description from TWOAIF symbolically refers to a white (and possibly icy) dragon:

Quote

Hoary means “greyish white,” or “white with age,” and its synonyms include “snowy” and “frosty.” Thus we can probably assume that Vhagar is a white or greyish white dragon, and most tellingly, the word “hoary” carries with it the connotation of snow and ice. Thus, Vhagar is a highly suitable mount for Visenya the ice queen.

Better still – and this is one of my favorite bits of symbolism, actually – we find that 120 years later during the Dance of the Dragons, Vhagar is ridden by Aemond One Eye Targaryen, who has replaced his wounded eye with a blue star sapphire. Thus, if Vhagar is indeed a hoary white dragon, Aemond’s blue star eye makes this pair an perfect analog of the ice dragon constellation...

Just a few thoughts on the “hoary old bitch” thing, which I found interesting.

"Hoar" just isn’t just a synonym of snow or ice, but to be a bit more precise (and pedantic!), it is the frost that encases solids on a particularly humid, cold day. When Jon sees those trees encased in ice, they are covered in hoarfrost. Hoar is literally the “magic north of the Wall.” Thus it’s an especially apt term.

So, whilst reading about the Iron Islands in TWOIAF, it came to me that this might be related to why the Ironborn who took over the riverlands were from House Hoare. Not sure how this jibes with the Hoare’s having “black blood” but it cannot be a coincidence to call these raiders, essentially, “ice men”.

And where do Hoares go? The God’s Eye.

Given GRRM’s predilection for puns, this got me wondering if he’s playing his usual rhyming games. Does “hoar” = “whore”? After all, assuming GRRM doesn’t have a prostitution fetish, there is an especially large number of references to whores in ASOIAF. Maybe hoar and whore are meant to allude to the ice-covered Others?

 

Great catch @Darry Man!  

Another synonym for 'hoar(frost)' with literary significance is the word 'rime' as in Lanford Wilson's play entitled 'The Rimers of Eldritch,' in which the 'rime' is interpreted to symbolically connote the 'candy-coating' or 'veil' masking the moral corruption within a community.  This fits with the speculation of the Others as a representation of some archetypal abomination having taken place, giving rise to the vengeful 'revenants' seeking justice -- or as @Seams has put it, 'just ice'!

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI.

The waycastle called Sky was no more than a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain, but even the topless towers of Valyria could not have looked more beautiful to Catelyn Stark. Here at last the snow crown began; Sky's weathered stones were rimed with frost, and long spears of ice hung from the slopes above.

There is probably also a pun on 'rime' with 'rhyme' -- but that's a story for another day...

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he'd done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow.

A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

Someone who essentially has been raped is wearing a coat of 'hoarfrost'...

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet.

Jon's breath went out of him as the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. 

Like the crown of the Queen -- not King -- of Winter.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

Sometimes he could sense them, though, as if they were still with him, only hidden from his sight by a boulder or a stand of trees. He could not smell them, nor hear their howls by night, yet he felt their presence at his back . . . all but the sister they had lost. His tail drooped when he remembered her. Four now, not five. Four and one more, the white who has no voice.

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

A reckoning is due.

Quote

 

Lo and behold, in the TWOIAF Driftwood Crowns section, we see this:

Quote

A generation later, the Lannisters captured the town of Kayce when Herrock the Whoreson blew his great gold-banded horn and the town whores opened a postern gate to his men.

IOW, a son of the Others blows a horn, and the rest of the Others breach a wall.

Or how about applying the hoar=whore=Others hypothesis to the rotten old uncles Umber? The cognomen “Crowfood” Umber certainly implies that he’s a dead man walking, but “Whoresbane” Umber? He’s someone the icy Others might want to avoid.

Of course there are far too many whores in this story (literal, not just metaphorical) to think that every whore represents the Others in every circumstance. However, it does make me want to pay more attention when this term is being used deliberately in the presence of a sun-king figure.

Given that the Night’s King paid a significant price in exchange for her icy embrace, the Night’s Queen could truly be considered a hoary whore.

Nice formulation. 

On the other hand, there is a sinister subtext, as I hinted above, present in many of the scenarios involving a so-called 'hoary bitch' in which the 'whore' in question on closer inspection is actually the one who paid the highest price in the exchange, being the victim of some abomination -- as in the Varamyr-Thistle interaction I quoted above.  It is problematic, to say the least, calling the victim of a rape a 'whore'!

Other (pardon the pun...B)) figures embodying this dynamic include Varys who was bartered and violated, his genitals appropriated for the profit of another, whereafter Varys became a whore in earnest; the Unsullied who similarly have forgone their autonomy, specifically again regarding their genitalia; and my favourite example, the 'soiled knights' of the Kingsguard who have sold out their moral principles in service of another.  Like Varys and the Unsullied, Jaime the current LC of the Kingsguard is emasculated, both physically and morally:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX

"You had best go, Cersei. You're making me angry."

"Oh, an angry cripple. How terrifying." She laughed. "A pity Lord Tywin Lannister never had a son. I could have been the heir he wanted, but I lacked the cock. And speaking of such, best tuck yours away, brother. It looks rather sad and small, hanging from your breeches like that."

When she was gone Jaime took her advice, fumbling one-handed at his laces. He felt a bone-deep ache in his phantom fingers. I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.

 @Pain killer Jane makes a connection between the moral 'soiling' cloaking the knights to other 'white-washings' of the original sin, as it were, including bird droppings, ash, lime, and snow, such as the layer of snow covering the 'snowmen' on the battlements at Winterfell, naturally linking these to the Others.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

"Oh, very good." Jaime laughed. "Your wits are quicker than mine, I confess it. When they found me standing over my dead king, I never thought to say, 'No, no, it wasn't me, it was a shadow, a terrible cold shadow.'" He laughed again. "Tell me true, one kingslayer to another—did the Starks pay you to slit his throat, or was it Stannis? Had Renly spurned you, was that the way of it? Or perhaps your moon's blood was on you. Never give a wench a sword when she's bleeding."

For a moment Jaime thought Brienne might strike him. A step closer, and I'll snatch that dagger from her sheath and bury it up her womb. He gathered a leg under him, ready to spring, but the wench did not move. "It is a rare and precious gift to be a knight," she said, "and even more so a knight of the Kingsguard. It is a gift given to few, a gift you scorned and soiled."

A gift you want desperately, wench, and can never have. "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me."

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A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

 

 

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So, to answer Tyrion's incessant question, where do whores go? To the God's Eye.

If your whore/hoar(frost) pun holds true, then the answer might be that they go to...

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 a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

AGOT -- Eddard IV

Depending on how you interpret the question as to who exactly is the 'whore' -- the perpetrator of the rape, the rape victim, or the one who stood idly by in full awareness of the rape and did nothing --

the Starks are implicated in one or more of the above, probably the latter, given the association between 'watchers', 'greenseers,' and the treacherous 'far-eyes' we were introduced to in the AGOT Prologue (i.e. Will).

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

Robb considered that a moment. "Did you know what Lord Rickard intended? Did you see the knives drawn? Did you hear the shouts, the screams, the cries for mercy?"

"Aye, I did, but I took no part. I was only the watcher, I swear it . . ."

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please." He turned away as the Greatjon's men closed upon the prisoners and drove them from the hall at spearpoint. Outside the thunder crashed and boomed, so loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Catelyn wondered.

 

Edited by ravenous reader

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18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Great catch @Darry Man!  

Another synonym for 'hoar(frost)' with literary significance is the word 'rime' as in Lanford Wilson's play entitled 'The Rimers of Eldritch,' in which the 'rime' is interpreted to symbolically connote the 'candy-coating' or 'veil' masking the moral corruption within a community.  This fits with the speculation of the Others as a representation of some archetypal abomination having taken place, giving rise to the vengeful 'revenants' seeking justice -- or as @Seams has put it, 'just ice'!

I had no idea that "rime" was "frost". I only associated it with the Rime of the Ancient Mariner (which happens to be about a guy who shoots down a bird from the sky, instigating doom to his ship and fellow crewmen, who all die and then are resurrected, then get sucked down a whirlpool before the guy gets pulled out of the sea and ends up grey and alone telling his tale -- but that's neither here nor there!).

There is something with the concept of being sheathed in a cold, hard veil. Enameled armor, for instance. Here's the passage on Jaime's phenomenal fever dream in ASOS:

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He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors on their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

So, yes, @LmL is definitely correct in his equating of the Others to the Kingsguard.

 

18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

On the other hand, there is a sinister subtext, as I hinted above, present in many of the scenarios involving a so-called 'hoary bitch' in which the 'whore' in question on closer inspection is actually the one who paid the highest price in the exchange, being the victim of some abomination -- as in the Varamyr-Thistle interaction I quoted above.  It is problematic, to say the least, calling the victim of a rape a 'whore'!

It's hard to say what was the price paid by the hoary whore and the rapist. There is an exchange, meaning both parties gave and receive. Yes, it is not equitable, but it doesn't have to be. The point is that both parties were transformed in some sense. In Thistle's case, she gains eternal life. It's a horrific undead hell, of course, but a it's a transformation nonetheless.

In this story, a woman can be both a rape victim and a whore who receives a payment. Tysha was raped horribly but paid each time. Tyrion raped a whore in Selhorys (where else?) before paying her. Maybe we should be focusing on tracking down these types of incidents involving whores, at least to start. Maybe it is the inequitable exchange of violence and payment that creates the bloodmagic necessary to create the Others.

Man, this story is dark.

 

18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Other (pardon the pun...B)) figures embodying this dynamic include Varys who was bartered and violated, his genitals appropriated for the profit of another, whereafter Varys became a whore in earnest; the Unsullied who similarly have forgone their autonomy, specifically again regarding their genitalia; and my favourite example, the 'soiled knights' of the Kingsguard who have sold out their moral principles in service of another.  Like Varys and the Unsullied, Jaime the current LC of the Kingsguard is emasculated, both physically and morally:

 @Pain killer Jane makes a connection between the moral 'soiling' cloaking the knights to other 'white-washings' of the original sin, as it were, including bird droppings, ash, lime, and snow, such as the layer of snow covering the 'snowmen' on the battlements at Winterfell, naturally linking these to the Others.

Good examples. 

 

18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If your whore/hoar(frost) pun holds true, then the answer might be that they go to...

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a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

AGOT -- Eddard IV

 

Why not both?

 

18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Depending on how you interpret the question as to who exactly is the 'whore' -- the perpetrator of the rape, the rape victim, or the one who stood idly by in full awareness of the rape and did nothing --

the Starks are implicated in one or more of the above, probably the latter, given the association between 'watchers', 'greenseers,' and the treacherous 'far-eyes' we were introduced to in the AGOT Prologue (i.e. Will).

Good points to consider.

I suppose we look for an exchange (a violent exchange?) between a perpetrator and a whore, possibly observed by a third party, and accompanied by the ice-moon and/or sun-king symbolism.

 

 

 

Edited by Darry Man

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