Sexual Assault Scandals 3- the Fempire Strikes Back

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

I'm sure this is just another lie by the Washington Post.

Pfft, that old gossip rag?

[polishgenius]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

She was seven, that's plenty old enough not to know.  She even apparently writes how she was behaving like a suburban predator.  In my world, when a seven year old is sexual touching another child, we tend to worry that the one doing the molesting was sexually abused themselves.

 

I don't think seven is old enough that you'd be getting worried about that kind of behaviour, certainly not enough that you'd jump to 'they must be getting molested themselves', unless it's repeated and compulsive. It's something you'd want to deal with immediately by explaining that it's not okay and all that (which apparently Dunham's parents didn't do satisfactorily given her bragging about it in the book), you'd keep an eye out for a little while in future to make sure it's not something they're doing on the reg, and you'd keep an eye on the other child to see if it's affected them, but it's not alarm-bell ringing behaviour on once incident.

It's her adult reaction to it that is a concern.

[Dr. Pepper]

21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

I don't think seven is old enough that you'd be getting worried about that kind of behaviour, certainly not enough that you'd jump to 'they must be getting molested themselves', unless it's repeated and compulsive. It's something you'd want to deal with immediately by explaining that it's not okay and all that (which apparently Dunham's parents didn't do satisfactorily given her bragging about it in the book), you'd keep an eye out for a little while in future to make sure it's not something they're doing on the reg, and you'd keep an eye on the other child to see if it's affected them, but it's not alarm-bell ringing behaviour on once incident.

It's her adult reaction to it that is a concern.

First, she wrote that it was repeated.  It wasn't a single instance of playing doctor. She specifically describes it as predatory behavior where she did 'everything'.  Second, I wrote 'in my world', implying that I acknowledge it might be different in other people's lives.  I am a foster parent.  The children who come through my home have experienced trauma and sometimes more trauma than we know.  When I see a child repeatedly engaging in sexually predatory behavior or just inappropriate touching, I become concerned about sexual abuse.  Children tend to perform what they are taught.  

Her childhood behavior is a concern, though what was published in a book is certainly a much larger concern.  

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

First, she wrote that it was repeated.  It wasn't a single instance of playing doctor. She specifically describes it as predatory behavior where she did 'everything'.

Fair enough. I'd either not seen or blanked that, that makes it a different thing. Even reading the bit about the pebbles again, it becomes clear that one-year-old Grace was apparently used enough to her sister fiddling with her vagina that she expected her to find them. Which means it must have happened quite a lot.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I am a foster parent.  The children who come through my home have experienced trauma and sometimes more trauma than we know.  When I see a child repeatedly engaging in sexually predatory behavior or just inappropriate touching, I become concerned about sexual abuse.

That's also fair. My experience is with kids from less difficult situations, where inappropriate touching is more likely to be curiosity/not knowing boundaries than something concerning (though as you say, repeated is a different issue).

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please refrain from personal attacks -- focus on the person's arguments only. And please do not make vague comments about what "people on here" might or might not do in some hypothetical situation. Neither avenue of discussion is very helpful. Thank you. [/mod]

[Darth Richard II]

o.O All the interesting stuff happens when I'm not here.

Any way, short version, Dunham is a mean, hypocritical asshole who says awful things pretty much weekly. See above twitter link.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

40 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

o.O All the interesting stuff happens when I'm not here.

Any way, short version, Dunham is a mean, hypocritical asshole who says awful things pretty much weekly. See above twitter link.

I don't follow her at all.  Wow.

[Darth Richard II]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don't follow her at all.  Wow.

I don't want to derail, but I could go off for pages and pages about my dislike for that person.

But back to sexual assault: Don't. It's Bad. (You'd be surprised how often I have to actually tell people this )

[Mother Cocanuts]

23 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Okay this article contains a quote from Lena Dunham's book.  She was 7 years old and was curious about her little sisters vagina.  A 7 year old doing what she describes is not what I would call "molestation".  It's not cool but she wasn't attempting a power play over her sister. 

What are you proposing should be done about what Lena Dunham did when she was 7 years old?

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/lena-dunham-describes-sexually-abusing-her-toddler-sister

That depends: which notion do you maintain? Are all instances of child molestation unacceptable regardless of intention? Or, is there nuance and we must take intention and state of mind into account? If you maintain the former, then Lena Dunham should be in prison. If you maintain the latter, then she should be absolved of all liability since she was just seven when she engaged her sister sexually. And Ser Scot, is it not by reason of their age difference that she was "attempting a power play"?

[Darth Richard II]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Yukle]

This opinion piece sums up the issue really well:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/opinion/sexual-harassment-men-.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

[Dr. Pepper]

21 minutes ago, Yukle said:

This opinion piece sums up the issue really well:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/opinion/sexual-harassment-men-.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

This quote says it best:

"It feels like a watershed, like something is fundamentally shifting.

But the greatest measure of fundamental change will be when everyday offenses by everyday people are also named and shamed, the trickle down of speaking up."

I don't know if what's happening now will trickle down and while it's great victims are getting some measure of justice, it's not that successful if it only applies to the .01%.

[Week]

4 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Are you fucking kidding me?

What if they were both armed?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

This quote says it best:

"It feels like a watershed, like something is fundamentally shifting.

But the greatest measure of fundamental change will be when everyday offenses by everyday people are also named and shamed, the trickle down of speaking up."

I don't know if what's happening now will trickle down and while it's great victims are getting some measure of justice, it's not that successful if it only applies to the .01%.

I would think that there would be some trickle down here. Obviously your run of the mill office manager isn't going to get the same press as a public figure, but it seems to me that the consequences right now are higher than they have ever been. 

[Dr. Pepper]

23 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I would think that there would be some trickle down here. Obviously your run of the mill office manager isn't going to get the same press as a public figure, but it seems to me that the consequences right now are higher than they have ever been. 

Yes, the consequences for those who are in a position to receive press coverage are higher, but that has little to nothing to do with those not in that position.  I haven't seen any studies that suggest Jane Plumber or Joe Teacher feel more empowered to speak up against sexual abuse or that their abusers are receiving greater consequences when they do speak up.  There isn't the same sort of mechanism that encourages these things like there is right now for those in the spotlight.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Week said:

What if they were both armed?

Oh well in that case its clearly OK...

[ThinkerX]

I two anecdotes from my past to toss into the mix.  Shines a light on the POV thing.

 

Anecdote One - Mid 1980's.  I am a security guard working the graveyard shift at a large petrochemical plant.  My duties involve keeping tabs on a fire control computer dating from the 60's and prone to frequent malfunctions.  Once or twice a shift, I have to enter the warehouse (different part of the plant) and enter a reset code so the thing doesn't summon the fire department by accident (which did happen a time or two.)  I am also required to check in on the janitorial crew - for whatever reason, the higher-ups have decreed the custodians are supposed to be cleaning specific parts of the plant at specific times. 

Anyhow, I enter the warehouse to reset said computer. Warehouse door opens onto a corridor that hits a blind 4 way intersection about ten yards in, and I have to hang a left at that point.  So, I go, step around the corner, and almost collide with a very attractive female member of the custodian crew. She seemed a bit taken aback, but I didn't think anything about it; went reset the computer and made a note of it in the log.  Whole incident was maybe three or four seconds.

Couple days later, my boss calls me in, asks a question or two about the incident.  I respond truthfully, then ask 'Why?'  Turned out the Custodian filed a sexual harassment complaint.  It was dismissed. 

Now, how many of the ladies HERE would have acted in the same way as said custodian in that situation?

 

Anecdote Two - 2000.  I am delivering pizza for a living and building my house from the proceeds.  I'm pretty proud of myself about this - a home of my own, built by my own two hands, with help from my Dad.  And I'm not shy about letting others know - the people I work with, and some of the people I deliver to.  One of those customers is a cashier (single woman) at the store where I do my grocery shopping, bit of back and forth light flirting there.  I supply her with frequent updates on the house, even show her a pic or two.  Then I move into the new pad.  Next time I pass through her checkout line, as part of the back and forth, I say well, 'My place is big enough for two.'  She gives me a distinctly frosty look.  Ten minutes later, I've mostly forgotten the incident.  A couple days later, I get a call from the higher-up at the pizza chain.  It isn't until he explains the situation for the second time I have any idea what he's talking about,  But, apparently the clerk construed that comment was construed as sexual harassment, though nothing came of it.

 

So, how many of the ladies HERE would agree with that long ago cashier? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Pepper]

7 minutes ago, ThinkerX said:

I two anecdotes from my past to toss into the mix.  Shines a light on the POV thing.

 

Anecdote One - Mid 1980's.  I am a security guard working the graveyard shift at a large petrochemical plant.  My duties involve keeping tabs on a fire control computer dating from the 60's and prone to frequent malfunctions.  Once or twice a shift, I have to enter the warehouse (different part of the plant) and enter a reset code so the thing doesn't summon the fire department by accident (which did happen a time or two.)  I am also required to check in on the janitorial crew - for whatever reason, the higher-ups have decreed the custodians are supposed to be cleaning specific parts of the plant at specific times. 

Anyhow, I enter the warehouse to reset said computer. Warehouse door opens onto a corridor that hits a blind 4 way intersection about ten yards in, and I have to hang a left at that point.  So, I go, step around the corner, and almost collide with a very attractive female member of the custodian crew. She seemed a bit taken aback, but I didn't think anything about it; went reset the computer and made a note of it in the log.  Whole incident was maybe three or four seconds.

Couple days later, my boss calls me in, asks a question or two about the incident.  I respond truthfully, then ask 'Why?'  Turned out the Custodian filed a sexual harassment complaint.  It was dismissed. 

Now, how many of the ladies HERE would have acted in the same way as said custodian in that situation?

 

Anecdote Two - 2000.  I am delivering pizza for a living and building my house from the proceeds.  I'm pretty proud of myself about this - a home of my own, built by my own two hands, with help from my Dad.  And I'm not shy about letting others know - the people I work with, and some of the people I deliver to.  One of those customers is a cashier (single woman) at the store where I do my grocery shopping, bit of back and forth light flirting there.  I supply her with frequent updates on the house, even show her a pic or two.  Then I move into the new pad.  Next time I pass through her checkout line, as part of the back and forth, I say well, 'My place is big enough for two.'  She gives me a distinctly frosty look.  Ten minutes later, I've mostly forgotten the incident.  A couple days later, I get a call from the higher-up at the pizza chain.  It isn't until he explains the situation for the second time I have any idea what he's talking about,  But, apparently the clerk construed that comment was construed as sexual harassment, though nothing came of it.

 

So, how many of the ladies HERE would agree with that long ago cashier? 

 

Situation one: There isn't enough information.  I would need the other person's version of events. You thought nothing of it, but that says little about what the woman thought of it.  We've already seen multiple public responses from those accused that they didn't remember an event a certain way.

Situation two: Oh yeah, that's bad.  It's good she felt safe enough to report it.  

[Theda Baratheon]

7 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

I two anecdotes from my past to toss into the mix.  Shines a light on the POV thing.

 

Anecdote One - Mid 1980's.  I am a security guard working the graveyard shift at a large petrochemical plant.  My duties involve keeping tabs on a fire control computer dating from the 60's and prone to frequent malfunctions.  Once or twice a shift, I have to enter the warehouse (different part of the plant) and enter a reset code so the thing doesn't summon the fire department by accident (which did happen a time or two.)  I am also required to check in on the janitorial crew - for whatever reason, the higher-ups have decreed the custodians are supposed to be cleaning specific parts of the plant at specific times. 

Anyhow, I enter the warehouse to reset said computer. Warehouse door opens onto a corridor that hits a blind 4 way intersection about ten yards in, and I have to hang a left at that point.  So, I go, step around the corner, and almost collide with a very attractive female member of the custodian crew. She seemed a bit taken aback, but I didn't think anything about it; went reset the computer and made a note of it in the log.  Whole incident was maybe three or four seconds.

Couple days later, my boss calls me in, asks a question or two about the incident.  I respond truthfully, then ask 'Why?'  Turned out the Custodian filed a sexual harassment complaint.  It was dismissed. 

Now, how many of the ladies HERE would have acted in the same way as said custodian in that situation?

 

Anecdote Two - 2000.  I am delivering pizza for a living and building my house from the proceeds.  I'm pretty proud of myself about this - a home of my own, built by my own two hands, with help from my Dad.  And I'm not shy about letting others know - the people I work with, and some of the people I deliver to.  One of those customers is a cashier (single woman) at the store where I do my grocery shopping, bit of back and forth light flirting there.  I supply her with frequent updates on the house, even show her a pic or two.  Then I move into the new pad.  Next time I pass through her checkout line, as part of the back and forth, I say well, 'My place is big enough for two.'  She gives me a distinctly frosty look.  Ten minutes later, I've mostly forgotten the incident.  A couple days later, I get a call from the higher-up at the pizza chain.  It isn't until he explains the situation for the second time I have any idea what he's talking about,  But, apparently the clerk construed that comment was construed as sexual harassment, though nothing came of it.

 

So, how many of the ladies HERE would agree with that long ago cashier? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't know enough about the first story.

If all you did was turn a corner and bump into her then there's nothing wrong with that - a sorry would gave been polite and that's it. You can' help accidentally walking into people sometimes. 

And as for the second...yeah,  I'm a cashier and I'm sure lots of men think I'm flirting with them when I'm just being friendly. Wow you thought nothing of it? Great. She obviously did and when you're in a customer facing role it's easy to feel angry and trapped when someone makes a comment like that. 

Would I have reported you? Nope because I'm used to it. Would I have bitched about the incident to my friends?? Absolutely. Would you have been added to the list of male customers who I used to be fond of but now feel let down by? Yeah. Absolutely. 

[Yukle]

7 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

Next time I pass through her checkout line, as part of the back and forth, I say well, 'My place is big enough for two.'  She gives me a distinctly frosty look.

As to the first, it sounds innocuous, so unless there's more to it, I'm not sure why she'd react that way.

The second... Hmm... I would feel uncomfortable as it seems quite forward. It would also make me sad, as I would've assumed from your description that nothing much suggested a desire for romance, just being friendly. I know you said, "flirting" but it's kind of a public face that we put on at times when men are talking to us. In her position, I wouldn't say I was uncomfortable to a customer, but it may have felt that way. If she reported it, it's possible from her perspective that it was, at least partly, unwanted attention.

It's possible that earlier conversations were being polite rather than genuine - not in a mean way, but check-out people are required as part of their jobs to engage with customers.

I empathise with how you must feel about it, and I probably wouldn't have reported you, but I can't say I'd have been comfortable in her position either.

There's a good chance she'd get quite creepy comments frequently, it's commonplace for people on checkouts, so she probably can't help but lump in all well-meaning people with the genuinely gross people who'd hit on her with impunity. I've never been a check-out chick - but mostly for that reason. I've worked in supermarkets but refused that job as I didn't want to deal with that.