Sexual Assault Scandals 3- the Fempire Strikes Back

[mankytoes]

I guess the problem is that all flirting/harassment situations are so situation dependant. Those scenarios are nothing compared to things I've seen, and the people involved have not card. I can be flirty, but I've never really done so much at work. Not because I've been afraid of accidently harrassing someone, more I've been afraid of making things awkward with someone I have to see every day.

In my experience, it's a big class thing. Middle class women are much more likely to be feminist and find these things offensive. Working class women often initiate jokes that would shock a lot of people. Maybe an age thing as well? I have worked with some middle aged women who love flirting in the office, I guess when they were young it's more common.

The sad truth is, it really depends on who you are. I worked with this lesbian once, everyone found her hilarious, but she would sit in the break room and say to girls things like "come here gorgeous, sit on my lap". And this was all the time. But she was like five foot, by her own description she looked like Justin Beiber, and everyone seemed to enjoy it. I'm sure if I'd done the same thing I wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

So I guess the advice is err on the side of caution. If you think a woman might report you for just bumping into her, just try to stay the hell away from her. Only equal flirting initiated by others. And if a company seems strict on this stuff... well Mike Pence's thing about not being alone with a woman isn't a bad idea (even a stopped clock...).

[Yukle]

15 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

The sad truth is, it really depends on who you are. I worked with this lesbian once, everyone found her hilarious, but she would sit in the break room and say to girls things like "come here gorgeous, sit on my lap". And this was all the time. But she was like five foot, by her own description she looked like Justin Beiber, and everyone seemed to enjoy it. I'm sure if I'd done the same thing I wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

It's a double-standard, I think. I've had it happen to me once, where a girl kept saying that sort of thing to me. I was getting pretty freaked out and she said, "You're so cute when you're flustered." I then requested that she remove herself from my presence and further added that she might seek sexual enjoyment from herself. I'm paraphrasing.

I don't mind my friends saying that sort stuff, just as I've seen lots of guys friends tease each other in sexual ways; there's nothing intended by it. But when somebody is hitting on me and I don't want it, I usually freeze up (the example above notwithstanding... but I did pretty much remain where I was until somebody offered to take me to the bathroom to calm down).

[Eggegg]

I think there is a general problem highlighted by scenario 2, in that, and I don't know if this is innate in men or not, but I have a feeling that it is, that men tend to assume there is flirtation in situations where there wasn't any.

I think maybe it has to do with different communication styles used between men and women, and maybe that men are more often wanting to pursue sexual / romantic relations with women they meet. So they see signs that women are interested in them when there aren't any, they are essentially making assumptions based on the way a man would view the interaction, which might not tie into what she would be thinking.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

43 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I guess the problem is that all flirting/harassment situations are so situation dependant. Those scenarios are nothing compared to things I've seen, and the people involved have not card. I can be flirty, but I've never really done so much at work. Not because I've been afraid of accidently harrassing someone, more I've been afraid of making things awkward with someone I have to see every day.

In my experience, it's a big class thing. Middle class women are much more likely to be feminist and find these things offensive. Working class women often initiate jokes that would shock a lot of people. Maybe an age thing as well? I have worked with some middle aged women who love flirting in the office, I guess when they were young it's more common.

The sad truth is, it really depends on who you are. I worked with this lesbian once, everyone found her hilarious, but she would sit in the break room and say to girls things like "come here gorgeous, sit on my lap". And this was all the time. But she was like five foot, by her own description she looked like Justin Beiber, and everyone seemed to enjoy it. I'm sure if I'd done the same thing I wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

So I guess the advice is err on the side of caution. If you think a woman might report you for just bumping into her, just try to stay the hell away from her. Only equal flirting initiated by others. And if a company seems strict on this stuff... well Mike Pence's thing about not being alone with a woman isn't a bad idea (even a stopped clock...).

I'm a working class woman and I'm young and work in retail and when people make uncomfortable flirts with me when I'm working, trapped in a situation where I have to remain polite and friendly and not be rude to customers it''s easy to feel angry and let down.

Speech with friends is always going to be different to speech within work and...I kinda don't like the idea that working class women can't be fiercely feminist in  their own right unless they give up their sense of humour ?? I don't know - I can sort of see the sentiment of white middle class feminists being outraged by everything, even things that don't effect them that's not really the case for young female retail and service workers being uncomfortable and suffering from sexual harassment which we probably do a LOT

 We don't always complain or report because who would LISTEN or CARE it's not that we are just naturally more course and thick skinned concerning sexual harassment :/

[mankytoes]

17 minutes ago, Yukle said:

It's a double-standard, I think. I've had it happen to me once, where a girl kept saying that sort of thing to me. I was getting pretty freaked out and she said, "You're so cute when you're flustered." I then requested that she remove herself from my presence and further added that she might seek sexual enjoyment from herself. I'm paraphrasing.

I don't mind my friends saying that sort stuff, just as I've seen lots of guys friends tease each other in sexual ways; there's nothing intended by it. But when somebody is hitting on me and I don't want it, I usually freeze up (the example above notwithstanding... but I did pretty much remain where I was until somebody offered to take me to the bathroom to calm down).

I guess it's hard to tell sometimes. I assumed all the girls were ok with it, because they were laughing along, but maybe they just didn't want to be seen as a wet blanket, especially as she was popular and well established. Something similar actually happened at another job I worked at, where the girl doing it was new, but she lost her job after like a week. Honestly, I think they kind of wanted to get rid of her anyway though, so it's hard to say.

Yeah, I think this is a mistake a lot of people make, not just with sexual jokes, but race or whatever as well. One of my best friends is female, and we make really inappropriate jokes, that I would never dream of making with another girl. I think some people develop that kind of relationship, or see it, and think that they can then act that way generally.

8 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think there is a general problem highlighted by scenario 2, in that, and I don't know if this is innate in men or not, but I have a feeling that it is, that men tend to assume there is flirtation in situations where there wasn't any.

I think maybe it has to do with different communication styles used between men and women, and maybe that men are more often wanting to pursue sexual / romantic relations with women they meet. So they see signs that women are interested in them when there aren't any, they are essentially making assumptions based on the way a man would view the interaction, which might not tie into what she would be thinking.

Yeah, I mean I'd just say a lot of people, but more men, get it wrong generally. There are a lot of guys who are over confident, and always think girls want them. There are a lot of guy who are under confident, and never girls want them.

Just generally, it's a problem for people who aren't good at reading people, because flirting usually is subtle, you are looking for little signs. I would love to live in a world where you could just go up to a girl and say "I am attracted to you, are you attracted to me?", but sadly that's not the world we live in. Like I was talking to a female friend, she was chatting on Tinder, looking to get laid with this guy, and then he just kinda suddenly wrote something like "so lets meet up and fuck at nine". So she just ghosted him, and I understand why. It's weird to do that, to not follow basic social conventions.

[Theda Baratheon]

16 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think there is a general problem highlighted by scenario 2, in that, and I don't know if this is innate in men or not, but I have a feeling that it is, that men tend to assume there is flirtation in situations where there wasn't any.

I think maybe it has to do with different communication styles used between men and women, and maybe that men are more often wanting to pursue sexual / romantic relations with women they meet. So they see signs that women are interested in them when there aren't any, they are essentially making assumptions based on the way a man would view the interaction, which might not tie into what she would be thinking.

 

I think this has some credit to it. I'e often felt like some male customers might think I'm flirting just....by talking to them lol. About films n music (because I work in an entertainment store) and I smile a lot and have a hearty laugh. But its customer service. I've got to be polite. It's just my job.

My best friend who I work with got a FACEBOOK MESSAGE from a customer. He had found her on FACEBOOK and thought they had a connection!!! Wtf?? I often wonder how they can not realise or have self awareness in this situation that the girl is just doing a customer facing job. 

[Theda Baratheon]

5 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I guess it's hard to tell sometimes. I assumed all the girls were ok with it, because they were laughing along, but maybe they just didn't want to be seen as a wet blanket, especially as she was popular and well established. Something similar actually happened at another job I worked at, where the girl doing it was new, but she lost her job after like a week. Honestly, I think they kind of wanted to get rid of her anyway though, so it's hard to say.

Yeah, I think this is a mistake a lot of people make, not just with sexual jokes, but race or whatever as well. One of my best friends is female, and we make really inappropriate jokes, that I would never dream of making with another girl. I think some people develop that kind of relationship, or see it, and think that they can then act that way generally.

Yeah, I mean I'd just say a lot of people, but more men, get it wrong generally. There are a lot of guys who are over confident, and always think girls want them. There are a lot of guy who are under confident, and never girls want them.

Just generally, it's a problem for people who aren't good at reading people, because flirting usually is subtle, you are looking for little signs. I would love to live in a world where you could just go up to a girl and say "I am attracted to you, are you attracted to me?", but sadly that's not the world we live in. Like I was talking to a female friend, she was chatting on Tinder, looking to get laid with this guy, and then he just kinda suddenly wrote something like "so lets meet up and fuck at nine". So she just ghosted him, and I understand why. It's weird to do that, to not follow basic social conventions.

More often than not women have when feeling cornered in a situation, especially if feeling nervous at a sexual advance.  Because it' like wow ??!! Did they just say that??? *nervous laugh* I nervous laugh a LOT and I hate it 

[Eggegg]

2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I think this has some credit to it. I'e often felt like some male customers might think I'm flirting just....by talking to them lol. About films n music (because I work in an entertainment store) and I smile a lot and have a hearty laugh. But its customer service. I've got to be polite. It's just my job.

My best friend who I work with got a FACEBOOK MESSAGE from a customer. He had found her on FACEBOOK and thought they had a connection!!! Wtf?? I often wonder how they can not realise or have self awareness in this situation that the girl is just doing a customer facing job. 

I think a lot of guys have trouble distinguishing between their own attraction for someone and what the other person was feeling. I know I’ve made this mistake numerous times. Lots of comics joke about this delusional quality a lot of guys have, not understanding how female attraction might differ to male. Just spend 5 minutes online dating and you’ll see that nightmare in action.

Normal equation for a guy can be - girl is talking to me and laughing + i slightly find her attractive = We are soul mates. 

[mankytoes]

12 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I'm a working class woman and I'm young and work in retail and when people make uncomfortable flirts with me when I'm working, trapped in a situation where I have to remain polite and friendly and not be rude to customers it''s easy to feel angry and let down.

Speech with friends is always going to be different to speech within work and...I kinda don't like the idea that working class women can't be fiercely feminist in  their own right unless they give up their sense of humour ?? I don't know - I can sort of see the sentiment of white middle class feminists being outraged by everything, even things that don't effect them that's not really the case for young female retail and service workers being uncomfortable and suffering from sexual harassment which we probably do a LOT

 We don't always complain or report because who would LISTEN or CARE it's not that we are just naturally more course and thick skinned concerning sexual harassment :/

I guess customer service culture generally is difficult that way, the whole principle is that you have to always be polite, even if the customer isn't, whether that's being rude or too flirty or whatever. I do empathise though, because I've worked customer service and I would fucking hate to have creepy men hitting on me like I've seen women have. Like with other situations, it's the power inbalance- as a customer, they have the power, they know you can't just tell them to fuck off.

I think they can, in my experience they just don't really associate as feminist, even if they do have a problem with specific issues, like men being over the top in this way. Like a lot of women I've worked with in low wage jobs say they hope their husband/boyfriend gets a promotion, so they can quite and be a housewife. It's understandable that they don't feel much connection to mainstream feminism in this country- though to be fair, I've heard a lot of feminists acknowledge this, and express a desire to focus more on the concerns of average or lower class women, who are more concerned with avoiding abusive men and putting food on the table than increasing the number of female judges.

I can only speak for where I grow up, but there is a general culture of being more open about things, making jokes about sex and stuff. Obviously all families are different, but pretty much all my friends are from more middle class backgrounds than me, and I do feel a cultural difference.

It's always good to get other people's perspectives though. It reminds me of a story my mum told me, she said she was working in a very "laddy" office in the 70s, really heavy sexual "banter" that would never fly today. They tried it with her, she told them not to- and when my mum tells you to stop, you stop. But another girl there was always giggling along- and then she would go outside and cry her eyes out. I always try to keep that in mind.

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

More often than not women have when feeling cornered in a situation, especially if feeling nervous at a sexual advance.  Because it' like wow ??!! Did they just say that??? *nervous laugh* I nervous laugh a LOT and I hate it 

Me too- I laugh or freeze. But I'm really not trying to draw an equivalency here, because it probably happens to me like 1% as often as it happens to you. I think a part of why I react that way is I'm not used to it and not expecting it.

[MercenaryChef]

I love how so many of these recent posts have boiled down to 'some guys just don't know when their advances are unwanted.' 

that is hardly the subject. of all of our besieged and dethroned politicians and media types lately we are talking about rape, attempted rape, assault,  and egregious sexual harassment. 

I am married now. but single I was rather awkward. word to the wise: if after one tasteful flirtation and advance you are brushed off, back the fuck off. it is really very easy to not end up being a predatory weirdo fuck. I can't wrap my brain around why so many men have a problem with that. 

[Mother Cocanuts]

 

8 hours ago, ThinkerX said:

Anecdote Two - 2000.  I am delivering pizza for a living and building my house from the proceeds.  I'm pretty proud of myself about this - a home of my own, built by my own two hands, with help from my Dad.  And I'm not shy about letting others know - the people I work with, and some of the people I deliver to.  One of those customers is a cashier (single woman) at the store where I do my grocery shopping, bit of back and forth light flirting there.  I supply her with frequent updates on the house, even show her a pic or two.  Then I move into the new pad.  Next time I pass through her checkout line, as part of the back and forth, I say well, 'My place is big enough for two.'  She gives me a distinctly frosty look.  Ten minutes later, I've mostly forgotten the incident.  A couple days later, I get a call from the higher-up at the pizza chain.  It isn't until he explains the situation for the second time I have any idea what he's talking about,  But, apparently the clerk construed that comment was construed as sexual harassment, though nothing came of it.

 

So, how many of the ladies HERE would agree with that long ago cashier?

This by definition is not harassment. Harassment has to be repetitive; and your words, as I construed them, don't necessarily imply sexual contact. But even if the implication was sexual, so what? You hit on her; she wasn't interested. That should've been the end of it. Clearly she wasn't the one for you, if she were so sensitive enough to characterize "My place is big enough for two" as harassment.

20 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think there is a general problem highlighted by scenario 2, in that, and I don't know if this is innate in men or not, but I have a feeling that it is, that men tend to assume there is flirtation in situations where there wasn't any.

I think maybe it has to do with different communication styles used between men and women, and maybe that men are more often wanting to pursue sexual / romantic relations with women they meet. So they see signs that women are interested in them when there aren't any, they are essentially making assumptions based on the way a man would view the interaction, which might not tie into what she would be thinking.
 

This is true for anyone. There's a little bit of projection when interacting with others. We can only see things the way we perceive it. I've known women who were hopelessly infatuated and taken by men who weren't interested in them, but would come up with some singular "but he looked at me a certain way" moment in order convince themselves that there was something there. Now, at least a narrative within in mainstream media, any assertions of sexuality, especially heterosexual male sexuality, is pathological.

[mormont]

41 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

This by definition is not harassment. Harassment has to be repetitive

Well, that depends on which definition you're using. Certainly in the UK, legally and under most HR procedures, this is not true. A single incident can be considered harassment, although of course it is easier to meet the other elements of the definition if the incidents are many. 

[BigFatCoward]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, that depends on which definition you're using. Certainly in the UK, legally and under most HR procedures, this is not true. A single incident can be considered harassment, although of course it is easier to meet the other elements of the definition if the incidents are many. 

Under UK law harassment has to involve a 'course of conduct' and has been held to be 'at least 2 occasions'.  

[Dr. Pepper]

I think one thing people might be missing from Anecdote 2 that was shared above is that it wasn't just banter across a cash register.  The poster delivered pizzas to her house, too.  He knew she was single and where she lived she he thought she was flirting and was telling her that his newly built rural house was perfect for two.  To me it's perfectly reasonable that she would report this to someone in case she ever came up missing one day.  

I've noticed that a lot of men tend to make light of things by by saying they thought nothing of it or that they had forgotten within ten minutes.  It illustrates how deeply ingrained it is for men to not consider how their behavior affects women.  That poster commented on a marked change in the woman when he mentioned his house being built for two, but then didn't think anything of it.  He forgot the incident and was seemingly baffled when it was mentioned to him again.  If someone turns 'frosty' while I'm speaking with them after we'd previously had warm banter, I'm going to remember that and be wracking my brain about what I did wrong.  

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think one thing people might be missing from Anecdote 2 that was shared above is that it wasn't just banter across a cash register.  The poster delivered pizzas to her house, too.  He knew she was single and where she lived she he thought she was flirting and was telling her that his newly built rural house was perfect for two.  To me it's perfectly reasonable that she would report this to someone in case she ever came up missing one day.  

I've noticed that a lot of men tend to make light of things by by saying they thought nothing of it or that they had forgotten within ten minutes.  It illustrates how deeply ingrained it is for men to not consider how their behavior affects women.  That poster commented on a marked change in the woman when he mentioned his house being built for two, but then didn't think anything of it.  He forgot the incident and was seemingly baffled when it was mentioned to him again.  If someone turns 'frosty' while I'm speaking with them after we'd previously had warm banter, I'm going to remember that and be wracking my brain about what I did wrong.  

Yep this is a great point.

I mean Im not going to be traumatised if someone flirts with me in work even if it''s highly innapropriate but those people don' know where I live so...there's no sense of actual threat.

And couldnt agree more with the second paragraph. I agree so often see "well the incident seemed like nothing to me" but if I made a bad joke and someone obviously gave me a frosty look that''s going to haunt me all day hahaha. Did he even apologise?  Probably not. If someone made a misstep with me and when noticing my body language and facial expression change immediately said "oh I'm sorry" I think for me personally that would make all the difference 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think one thing people might be missing from Anecdote 2 that was shared above is that it wasn't just banter across a cash register.  The poster delivered pizzas to her house, too.  He knew she was single and where she lived she he thought she was flirting and was telling her that his newly built rural house was perfect for two.  To me it's perfectly reasonable that she would report this to someone in case she ever came up missing one day.  

I've noticed that a lot of men tend to make light of things by by saying they thought nothing of it or that they had forgotten within ten minutes.  It illustrates how deeply ingrained it is for men to not consider how their behavior affects women.  That poster commented on a marked change in the woman when he mentioned his house being built for two, but then didn't think anything of it.  He forgot the incident and was seemingly baffled when it was mentioned to him again.  If someone turns 'frosty' while I'm speaking with them after we'd previously had warm banter, I'm going to remember that and be wracking my brain about what I did wrong.  

Actually, that is a great point.  What we (men) see as offhand and innocent can be taken very differently by someone we don't know.
 

[Eggegg]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think one thing people might be missing from Anecdote 2 that was shared above is that it wasn't just banter across a cash register.  The poster delivered pizzas to her house, too.  He knew she was single and where she lived she he thought she was flirting and was telling her that his newly built rural house was perfect for two.  To me it's perfectly reasonable that she would report this to someone in case she ever came up missing one day.  

I've noticed that a lot of men tend to make light of things by by saying they thought nothing of it or that they had forgotten within ten minutes.  It illustrates how deeply ingrained it is for men to not consider how their behavior affects women.  That poster commented on a marked change in the woman when he mentioned his house being built for two, but then didn't think anything of it.  He forgot the incident and was seemingly baffled when it was mentioned to him again.  If someone turns 'frosty' while I'm speaking with them after we'd previously had warm banter, I'm going to remember that and be wracking my brain about what I did wrong.  

I think this is true, but mainly because were the situation reversed then it’s unlikely the man would be worried for their safety or think of negative consequences. It’s difficult for men to put themselves in a woman’s shoes like that, especially if they do not consider themselves threatening, even if other men sometimes are. 

[mormont]

58 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Under UK law harassment has to involve a 'course of conduct' and has been held to be 'at least 2 occasions'.  

Far be it from me to correct an officer of the law, but... under the criminal law, I believe you're correct, but under employment and equality law, it can be a single incident. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

15 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I think this is true, but mainly because were the situation reversed then it’s unlikely the man would be worried for their safety or think of negative consequences. It’s difficult for men to put themselves in a woman’s shoes like that, especially if they do not consider themselves threatening, even if other men sometimes are. 

I think this lack of empathy, on men's part, is a big part of the problem.  

[Dr. Pepper]

18 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think this lack of empathy, on men's part, is a big part of the problem.  

I think this is a problem, but also wonder how much it's ingrained in boys to be dismissive of women. For example, they're taught to dismiss the skills of girls from a young age with "insults" about how one does something like a girl (throw like a girl, hit like a girl, etc).  I think it's likely someone would be more interested in why a male cashier had suddenly turned frosty after a long period of warm banter.