Sexual Assault Scandals 3- the Fempire Strikes Back

[mankytoes]

21 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think this lack of empathy, on men's part, is a big part of the problem.  

I know as a teenager I had this view of women as having all the power, sexually- the whole "gate keeper" idea where women can dictate who they have sex with and when, as they choose. Maybe it's from coming from a family of "strong women", but I really don't think I ever thought about women being pressured or bullied into sex. I didn't really resent women for this, I just thought it was things are.

Even now, it's hard for me to imagine any women finding me a threat, I'm pretty skinny and quite jokey and chatty. I guess I'm still stronger than the vast majority of women though, and plenty of guys who do bad things don't seem the type at first. Honestly, I was traveling in Asia recently and there were so many young women backpacking alone, I was quite impressed. Going through some pretty undeveloped countries, staying in dorms, takes some balls.

[Eggegg]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think this is a problem, but also wonder how much it's ingrained in boys to be dismissive of women. For example, they're taught to dismiss the skills of girls from a young age with "insults" about how one does something like a girl (throw like a girl, hit like a girl, etc).  I think it's likely someone would be more interested in why a male cashier had suddenly turned frosty after a long period of warm banter.

I don’t think there is much truth in this, most men in fact put women on a pedestal especially when it comes to romantic matters. 

Really I think men just use different conversational strategies, preferring directness over subtlety, and so end up being pretty bad at giving and receiving covert signals. 

[Theda Baratheon]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think this is a problem, but also wonder how much it's ingrained in boys to be dismissive of women. For example, they're taught to dismiss the skills of girls from a young age with "insults" about how one does something like a girl (throw like a girl, hit like a girl, etc).  I think it's likely someone would be more interested in why a male cashier had suddenly turned frosty after a long period of warm banter.

Yeah someone made a comment like this in a Gary numan fanpage (lol) to insult someone and I politely said can we stop equating young women and girls with negatives and the bloke went from 1 to 200 in a Hot Second and instantly got defensive and said : oh Siân you're so miserable and stupidly  (?) opinionated you better get a sense of humour soon because you haven't got much else going for you?!??!?!? 

So one thing ive learnt is not only are men dismissive of women often but they're  (hope it's understood am not taking about each individual man in the world and just men as a general collective) also FURIOUS when women (especially young women) try to argue with them or even just tell them they're wrong lol 

I'e had people personal message me on Facebook to call me a whore because I had a different opinion about a TV show than them...it's ridiculous. ..

[Eggegg]

Dp

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, Eggegg said:

I don’t think there is much truth in this, most men in fact put women on a pedestal especially when it comes to romantic matters. 

Really I think men just use different conversational strategies, preferring directness over subtlety, and so end up being pretty bad at giving and receiving covert signals. 

You see I don' think the putting on the pedestal has to be something totally separate.  I think it' part of the same problem (for me). Putting women on pedestals if they like the same stuff as you and you even vaguely find them cute and then INTENSE anger when they call you out on something or act in a way you don't like. I KNOW social media is NOT the same as 'real life' but I've had maybe a bit too much experience with horrid scary people online going from a nice positive place to a scary nasty one when you disagree with them on something (even something totally trivial) women do it too but usually with women their anger is petty and not violent. 

[Ormond]

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I think there is a general problem highlighted by scenario 2, in that, and I don't know if this is innate in men or not, but I have a feeling that it is, that men tend to assume there is flirtation in situations where there wasn't any.

I think maybe it has to do with different communication styles used between men and women, and maybe that men are more often wanting to pursue sexual / romantic relations with women they meet. So they see signs that women are interested in them when there aren't any, they are essentially making assumptions based on the way a man would view the interaction, which might not tie into what she would be thinking.

 

There is actual research by social psychologists on that. They have made videos of two college students, a man and a woman, who are introduced for the first time and have been asked to converse with each other for a few minutes. They then ask the two people to evaluate the interaction, and also have other students view the tape and evaluate the interaction. It turned out both many of the men in the initial interaction, and many men who watched the video of it later, assumed that the woman is sexually interested in the man if she smiled a lot and made other friendly gestures and comments during their conversation. Very few women themselves made any such attributions to simply smiling and being friendly.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Ormond said:

There is actual research by social psychologists on that. They have made videos of two college students, a man and a woman, who are introduced for the first time and have been asked to converse with each other for a few minutes. They then ask the two people to evaluate the interaction, and also have other students view the tape and evaluate the interaction. It turned out both many of the men in the initial interaction, and many men who watched the video of it later, assumed that the woman is sexually interested in the man if she smiled a lot and made other friendly gestures and comments during their conversation. Very few women themselves made any such attributions to simply smiling and being friendly.

Could this be because men don't often smile or laugh or befriend women as much totally platonically? There is a nasty opinion online about women who have male friends and people thinking she is a slut but honestly I have lots of male friends and I hope they see me as a friend too and that I'm not flirting with them

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Far be it from me to correct an officer of the law, but... under the criminal law, I believe you're correct, but under employment and equality law, it can be a single incident. 

Sorry, i should have been clear, yes, under criminal law only, i have no knowledge whatsoever re employment/equality law.

[Eggegg]

9 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Could this be because men don't often smile or laugh or befriend women as much totally platonically? There is a nasty opinion online about women who have male friends and people thinking she is a slut but honestly I have lots of male friends and I hope they see me as a friend too and that I'm not flirting with them

I used to believe quite heavily in the Harry met Sally quote that men and women can never be friends cos sex always gets in the way. 

I don’t believe it to be true now, but certainly as a younger guy I certainly viewed most women as someone I would potentially sleep with. I’m glad I am older and wiser now but I’d guess that a good proportion of your male friends see you differently to how you see them 

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think one thing people might be missing from Anecdote 2 that was shared above is that it wasn't just banter across a cash register.  The poster delivered pizzas to her house, too.  He knew she was single and where she lived she he thought she was flirting and was telling her that his newly built rural house was perfect for two.  To me it's perfectly reasonable that she would report this to someone in case she ever came up missing one day.   

Having never felt particularly threatened (though i did once have a stalker), this level of worry is nothing i'd ever considered, is this genuinely the sort of thing that women can feel just from the above exchange?  to be clear this isn't a criticism or me saying its an over reaction, just a genuine querey. 

[Dr. Pepper]

14 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I don’t think there is much truth in this, most men in fact put women on a pedestal especially when it comes to romantic matters. 

Really I think men just use different conversational strategies, preferring directness over subtlety, and so end up being pretty bad at giving and receiving covert signals. 

I'm not really sure I get the point you're making.  Are you saying it isn't common for insults to be dismissive of the skills of women?  I can count on one hand how many times Ive heard "you throw like a boy" used as an insult while "you throw like a girl" is so common that one hears it practically every week.  

I'm also not sure what putting one on a pedestal has to do with anything or how it refutes the fact that men are dismissive to woman.  It's like when politicians say they love and respect women because they have a mother, sister, daughter, wife, etc but then might still turn around and harass a woman or vote against their basic interests.  There's nothing meaningful about 'being on a pedestal.'  In fact, it often can be pretty sexist and dismissive in it's own way.  The culture where men pay for women, open doors, etc when it comes to romantic endeavors dismisses that women can make their own money or can open their own doors, in a sense it ignores that women are capable of caring for themselves or others.

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Could this be because men don't often smile or laugh or befriend women as much totally platonically? There is a nasty opinion online about women who have male friends and people thinking she is a slut but honestly I have lots of male friends and I hope they see me as a friend too and that I'm not flirting with them

Oh, and of course if women don't smile they are being rude or bitchy or told they need to smile.  

Restng Bitch Face ftw.

[Mother Cocanuts]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Well, that depends on which definition you're using. Certainly in the UK, legally and under most HR procedures, this is not true. A single incident can be considered harassment, although of course it is easier to meet the other elements of the definition if the incidents are many. 

 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Far be it from me to correct an officer of the law, but... under the criminal law, I believe you're correct, but under employment and equality law, it can be a single incident. 

That's nonsensical. Any form of initiated contact can be construed or misconstrued as sexual. I think harassment loses its weight if the element of re-occurrence is discarded, as well as any clearly established dissent. This is far too broad a parameter, even for the U.K.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

15 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I used to believe quite heavily in the Harry met Sally quote that men and women can never be friends cos sex always gets in the way. 

I don’t believe it to be true now, but certainly as a younger guy I certainly viewed most women as someone I would potentially sleep with. I’m glad I am older and wiser now but I’d guess that a good proportion of your male friends see you differently to how you see them 

yeah this makes me sad when I think about it lol but I'm not exactly a prom queen and may come as a shock to many here but am actually v funny and friendly and nice to be around in person so I still think I have lots of genuine male friends but this is the kind of stuff that worries me sometimes like men turning around and accusing a woman of friend zoning g them as if it''s a punishment when the woman had NO CLUE that''s how the guy felt and her "leading him on" was just the behaviour of...being a friend??? 

The world is a better place when you have many friends 

 

17 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Having never felt particularly threatened (though i did once have a stalker), this level of worry is nothing i'd ever considered, is this genuinely the sort of thing that women can feel just from the above exchange?  to be clear this isn't a criticism or me saying its an over reaction, just a genuine querey. 

Ive never had to really think about men as a threat and have always gotten along quite well with men and had male friends but yes this is definitely something women have to keep in mind. Since I was little girl I've had parents and family tell me to be careful when I'm out walking which I do a fair bit of. There''s just an implicit idea that women can be attacked just...for existing. So I think there'd 100% be a fear of rejecting something who...knows where you live. We see news stories all the time of men killing the women that reject them. Even if it is unfair to the general male population to have thsee worries it doesn't stop those worries from happening.  

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

Having never felt particularly threatened (though i did once have a stalker), this level of worry is nothing i'd ever considered, is this genuinely the sort of thing that women can feel just from the above exchange?  to be clear this isn't a criticism or me saying its an over reaction, just a genuine querey. 

It's hard to say what the woman felt, but yes, reading that exchange it's certainly the sense that I got.  It was creepy and disturbing.  According to Thinker X, the banter had been going on for a while and he seemed to assume it sometimes reached the level of flirting.  Since she reported it, it's possible that she never felt it was flirting. If he thought she was flirting, he may have been expressing flirtatious behavior towards her at a time when she was required to be polite (or when he was at her house delivering pizzas while she was alone and being polite was just being safe).  He doesn't mention anything about her beyond that she's single, she's a cashier, and he knows where she lives, but does mention that he constantly talked about the house he was building.  Did he ever ask about her?  The way he described scenario one also plays into it.  He remembers tons of details about that day and is sure to let us know the woman he bumped into was attractive.  There's probably something about that that set me up to be more alert when reading the second scenario.  

There's often this low key buzz in the back of our minds that danger is lurking, specifically from men.  It's not because the news reports constantly report on danger, it's because most of us have experienced it, and often more than once.  Everything from simple butt grabbing, to being catcalled when just walking down the street, to being actually threatened.  For a long time people on this forum thought I was a man simply because there was a "Dr" in my username.  I'd get public and private messages of "Hell yeah, you're awesome."  When I made clear that I'm a woman, the public and private comments changed to "nasty, whore, bitchy, mean" etc.  I've always been sarcastic, maybe borderline rude, snarky, abrupt. There's nothing fundamentally different about the manner of my posting except that people now know I might have a vagina.  Theda is probably one of the kindest most thoughtful person online ever, and she still reports receiving hostile attacks for merely disagreeing about something as trivial as a tv show. Do you get called a bitch or a whore for something similar?  Do you get yelled out or run out of spaces?  Probably not.

So to get back to the question, yes, if someone says to me that they have built a house and then mention it's perfect for two, I'll think about all they know about me.  One, they know I'm single.  Two, they know where I live.  Three, maybe they think I've been flirting with them.  Then I'll go into the what ifs, the statistics, the things that have already happened to me.  Better to report it to someone than be sorry.  

[mormont]

16 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

That's nonsensical. Any form of initiated contact can be construed or misconstrued as sexual. I think harassment loses its weight if the element of re-occurrence is discarded, as well as any clearly established dissent. This is far too broad a parameter, even for the U.K.

The converse view would be that it would be nonsensical to dismiss the impact of an incident because 'it only happened once'. How many times do I have to proposition an employee before it's 'harassment'? Should I get one free shot at it? 

Better by far to remove the requirement for behaviour to be repeated, and in so doing consideration of the context rather than just the count.

[Mother Cocanuts]

30 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Could this be because men don't often smile or laugh or befriend women as much totally platonically? There is a nasty opinion online about women who have male friends and people thinking she is a slut but honestly I have lots of male friends and I hope they see me as a friend too and that I'm not flirting with them

Because the relationships of men and women implicitly denote sexual expectations. These prospects are essential in the distinctions which characterize the sexes. Even in a family which you'd argue is a hub of platonic intimacy and love would exhibit behaviors that acknowledge and legitimize the aforementioned expectations. Case in point, separating boys and girls as they reach sexual maturity. Exceptions to this arise when one or either is "asexual" or homosexual. I'm not saying that heterosexual men and women can't be friends. I just think they're better served knowing that their relationships at least bear some implicitly sexual element.

[Week]

9 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

Because the relationships of men and women implicitly denote sexual expectations. 

No, they don't. Full stop.

[Mother Cocanuts]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

The converse view would be that it would be nonsensical to dismiss the impact of an incident because 'it only happened once'.

Yes, that too would be nonsensical. But that's not what I've argued.

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

How many times do I have to proposition an employee before it's 'harassment'?

Oh, are we discussing harassment in the context of employee-relationships? I would imagine more than once.

8 minutes ago, mormont said:

Should I get one free shot at it?

Why not? You have no idea how the person will respond until after the fact, right?

9 minutes ago, mormont said:

Better by far to remove the requirement for behaviour to be repeated, and in so doing consideration of the context rather than just the count.

But we already have stipulations that address the issue by context. For example, I imagine no one would argue that a person has to be repeatedly groped in order to constitute sexual assault. Or that a person has to be repeatedly penetrated (or enveloped) to be raped. When it comes to something as subjective as taking offense at, what most would consider at most, impropriety, then yes, it would be better to give them one free shot at it.

[Reny of Storms End]

32 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

For a long time people on this forum thought I was a man simply because there was a "Dr" in my username.  I'd get public and private messages of "Hell yeah, you're awesome."  When I made clear that I'm a woman, the public and private comments changed to "nasty, whore, bitchy, mean" etc.  I've always been sarcastic, maybe borderline rude, snarky, abrupt. There's nothing fundamentally different about the manner of my posting except that people now know I might have a vagina. 

Sorry to go off topic but this made me remember something from my early days posting here. A lot of posters used to think I was a middle aged woman from Europe.

 

To return to topic, I totally agree with the idea that most men are lost at understanding when a woman shows them any kindness it doesn't mean sexual attraction. I have had many friends, sometimes over the same person, come to me to talk about how much so and so likes them because they smile and laugh. It almost became an internal joke for me with one particular friend. If a female so much as talked with him, he knew they were meant to be. 

[Dr. Pepper]

In case there was anyone who was on the fence about Franken despite photo evidence, there's another accuser.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Quote

A woman says Sen. Al Franken inappropriately touched her in 2010, telling CNN that he grabbed her buttocks while taking a photo at the Minnesota State Fair.

It is the first allegation of improper touching by Franken, who is a Democrat, while he was in office. It comes just days after Leeann Tweeden, a local radio news anchor in California, said that Franken forcibly kissed and groped her in 2006, when Franken was a comedian.

I expect/hope a resignation to come shortly.