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Sexual Assault Scandals 3- the Fempire Strikes Back


Kelli Fury

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Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No, he's not her rep. She's from Texas actually. 

 

Okay, that only slightly changes things. He's just one of the most powerful men in the united states, who could easily make her life hell if he so chose. As a US senator he has a lot of power, period. 

But mostly, again, the idea is that she would have reacted in some specific way that is allowable by you and because she didn't she is to be disbelieved. We get example after example after example of how this isn't really the case, and you still don't believe it. Why not? How is this particularly different than the 7 women that talked about what Roy Moore did? Or about the 14 year old who came out about Spacey? Or all the women in my life who have told me about things that continue to make me rage, but have not brought out publicly? 

The norm is to repress it. The norm is to not react to it. The norm is to say nothing publicly. This story so far sounds entirely normal. 

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13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Okay, I'm going to fill you in on something: women are taught from a very early age to put up with that. And they largely do. They are taught not to speak up about it, they are taught not to confront, they are taught not to disobey. ESPECIALLY when a man in power does it. 

You don't make a big deal, you don't make a scene, you don't do any of those things unless your life is in danger. 

What you DO do, instead, is you take it in at the time and then tell your friends and family about it. 

She's just going to eat it and smile while her husband snaps a pic a few feet away?

And do we really think Franken is so brazen and stupid that he's going to do this in a public venue while the husband stands a few feet away?

You have scores of women who've worked with Franken over decades stating there's never been any incident or even a hint of an incident.

At the very least, he deserves the benefit of an investigation.

 

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1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

She's just going to eat it and smile while her husband snaps a pic a few feet away?

Yes. This happens so god damn much. Yes. Yes, yes. 

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And do we really think Franken is so brazen and stupid that he's going to do this in a public venue while the husband stands a few feet away?

Yes, because so many other men do this too. GHWB did this - a couple times! Men do it because they can. Trump openly declared that he grabs women by the pussy to other guys, and the other guy giggled about it. He walked into women's dressing rooms while their parents were there. 

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

You have scores of women who've worked with Franken over decades stating there's never been any incident or even a hint of an incident.

So? Again, Kayla Moore says Roy Moore is innocent.

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

At the very least, he deserves the benefit of an investigation.

Why?

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3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

She's just going to eat it and smile while her husband snaps a pic a few feet away?

And do we really think Franken is so brazen and stupid that he's going to do this in a public venue while the husband stands a few feet away?

You have scores of women who've worked with Franken over decades stating there's never been any incident or even a hint of an incident.

At the very least, he deserves the benefit of an investigation.

 

I agree he deserves the benefit of an investigation.

Separately, the husband point is not really all that compelling.  In my own experience, while going around with my husband reduces stuff like street harassment (though not entirely - have definitely had the "whatcha doing with that loser" variety aimed at me) it/being married/etc. doesn't necessarily stop other stuff.  I was flat out propositioned by a client once at a client event.  My rings are not inconspicuous, and we had been talking about our respective children.

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

So? Again, Kayla Moore says Roy Moore is innocent.

Don't compare this to Moore, dude. It's ridiculous. You've got six accusers in the Moore case. Most of them were underage at the time. This is not the same thing. If you can't make a distinction here, I don't know what to tell you. 

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7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

She's just going to eat it and smile while her husband snaps a pic a few feet away?

And do we really think Franken is so brazen and stupid that he's going to do this in a public venue while the husband stands a few feet away?

You have scores of women who've worked with Franken over decades stating there's never been any incident or even a hint of an incident.

At the very least, he deserves the benefit of an investigation.

 

I did work with a senior manager who grabbed a woman's ass at a work event, and while her husband wasn't standing right there, he was close by and the ass grabbing was witnessed by other staff members.  He was fired.   But not until she threatened a lawsuit.

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2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Don't compare this to Moore, dude. It's ridiculous. You've got six accusers in the Moore case. Most of them were underage at the time. This is not the same thing. If you can't make a distinction here, I don't know what to tell you. 

It's not exactly the same thing, but that instinct - to shield a man by saying how other women hold him up as a good thing - is precisely the same. As if men don't act differently around different women, or if a man doesn't treat ALL women badly then he's fine. 

Again, just because some women say nothing bad happened TO THEM does not make it the case that other women are lying. In this case, we have a woman who says she got grabbed by Franken, who told her family at the time that he did it, but chose not to go forward until now because (surprise) someone else came forward first, and she thought before this that she wouldn't be believed publicly. This is almost precisely the same situation that every single accuser of Roy Moore showcased. It's what virtually all the accusers of Weinstein faced, it's what most of the accusers of Trump faced. It's incredibly common.

Here's my bet - that this isn't the last one we're going to hear about Franken. We'll hear more examples, and soon.

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's not exactly the same thing, but that instinct - to shield a man by saying how other women hold him up as a good thing - is precisely the same. As if men don't act differently around different women, or if a man doesn't treat ALL women badly then he's fine. 

Again, just because some women say nothing bad happened TO THEM does not make it the case that other women are lying. In this case, we have a woman who says she got grabbed by Franken, who told her family at the time that he did it, but chose not to go forward until now because (surprise) someone else came forward first, and she thought before this that she wouldn't be believed publicly. This is almost precisely the same situation that every single accuser of Roy Moore showcased. It's what virtually all the accusers of Weinstein faced, it's what most of the accusers of Trump faced. It's incredibly common.

Here's my bet - that this isn't the last one we're going to hear about Franken. We'll hear more examples, and soon.

It's not nearly the same thing on any level. Kayla Moore is married to Roy Moore. The accusations aren't nearly on the same level. 

If we get more examples, fine, but as it stands expecting him to resign prior to any investigation is ridiculous.

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3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

It's not nearly the same thing on any level. Kayla Moore is married to Roy Moore. The accusations aren't nearly on the same level. 

Again, not conflating the two scandals, just conflating the excuse for both of them. Hundreds of women have come forward to say how good Roy Moore was to them, as well. Lots of women came forward to say how good Trump treated them. This isn't anything special. 

I agree that Roy Moore is far, far worse than Franken on every single level. I can do this while simultaneously dismissing the argument that other women saying that he's a good guy means that he couldn't have done anything bad. We have to get over this idea that people mistreating women happens either none of the time or all of the time. 

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

If we get more examples, fine, but as it stands expecting him to resign prior to any investigation is ridiculous.

I was more objecting to the idea that he 'deserves' an investigation before getting anything else done. Why does he deserve one? There are plenty of cases where politicians get out of office for scandal regardless of criminal or civil liability. Moral turpitude matters too, and not always does it deserve an investigation. 

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I agree there needs to be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior; and well, Moore and Franken both should probably step down.  For me, the picture is enough for Franken, it shows a certain mentality that I just cannot understand.  

As someone else noted up thread, being acccused by a single is bad enough and demands an investigation, but having multiple accusations just makes it incredibly hard not to believe.

Edit to add - Kalbear, I agree, these aren’t exactly men living pay check to pay check.  They can and should step down for being in the midst of scandals as elected officials and just doing the right thing.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

I've shared hotel rooms and undressed in front of both heterosexual female friends and gay/bisexual male friends. Never gave it a second thought. Strangely, nobody got carried away, largely because in each case we were absolutely clear beforehand that the arrangement was entirely platonic and so we were able, somehow, to resist our apparently hardwired programming and show respect for each other as individuals. 

 

So much this! Once I even shared a room with 3 guys - all platonic (which means I was sharing a bed with one of them).  There's this thing called respect. I trusted all 3 of them implicitly.  

My most frequent roommate is someone who once was even a little attracted to me, but I have never once worried about so much as a creepy stare with him. 

Having desires and thoughts is NORMAL, acting like an ass because of them is simply a lack of control/caring/respect whichever you want to call it

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Hmmm, we have a orange baboon pretending to be president squatting in the White House whose administration is embroiled in scandal and we have a high profile senate election in Alabama which will likely result in the Dems picking up what should’ve been a safe Republican seat. Sure would be nice if something happened to a Democrat to divert some of the heat! And hey presto, two highly conservative Trump voting ladies accuse a Democratic senator of misconduct! Such luck! Of course it’s only a coincidence that Roger Stone gloated about the first accusation before the news even officially broke and the woman in question was a regular on Sean Hannity’s show, an extreme right-wing propaganda venue. It is definitely only a coincidence that this Democratic senator is a highly effective member of the Senate Judiciary Committee who made Trump’s pet elf Sessions squeal like a gutted pig during Senate hearings only last week. And it’s only because she’s just such a gracious lady that miss Tweeden accepted Franken’s apology, remarking that he doesn’t have to resign and that an ethics investigation (you know, with all the testifying under oath) definitely isn’t necessary at all, hahaha! gulp.

I’m not sure what’s more lamentable: the depths Republican operatives are willing to sink in order to get a political advantage or the willingness of liberals to throw their own people under the bus in a panicked reflex action to avoid even the faintest whiff of hypocrisy. ‘Oh, we’re not like those disgusting Moore voters, so we must immediately cast out our own accused. Otherwise Republicans will * gasp * accuse us of having double standards! Oh noes!’.

I bet that Roger Stone and his filthy ilk are watching with keen interest. If Franken is forced to resign, I expect a lot of Democratic politicians will suddenly meet with unexpected career terminations. After all, all you need is a woman making an allegation and proof that she met with the politician. No further evidence needed, immediate resignation required.

I’ll tell you what I need before I believe the allegations against Franken: when a woman who is NOT a rabid rightwinger, Trump voting, Hannity acolyte makes an accusation. I don’t know, like a (former) staffer or a SNL co-worker. If he truly is a pervert, there should be plenty of material here. Unless, of course, he only happens to grope conservative women.  Until then, I’m sticking with Franken.

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9 minutes ago, Warlock of Quarth said:

I’ll tell you what I need before I believe the allegations against Franken: when a woman who is NOT a rabid rightwinger, Trump voting, Hannity acolyte makes an accusation. I don’t know, like a (former) staffer or a SNL co-worker. If he truly is a pervert, there should be plenty of material here. Unless, of course, he only happens to grope conservative women.  Until then, I’m sticking with Franken.

Well, CNN reports about the latest accuser:

Lindsay and Jeremy Menz moved from Minnesota to Texas in 2014. Lindsay Menz is now a stay-at-home-mom of three young kids. Neither is registered with a political party and she said she has equally supported Republican and Democratic candidates while he said he has tended to favor Republicans. The couple voted last year for Donald Trump, and Menz said she has voted for Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, who is a Democrat, in the past. Menz said she believes she has voted for Franken as well, but is not sure.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

Except for voting for Trump, she does not fit your characterization of his other accusers, and she did mention this to other people back in 2010 right after it occurred, and there is written evidence of that on Facebook. So I think it is engaging in some psychological denial to not believe her. (Athough what's she's accusing Franken of is not as serious as some of the accusations against Moore, and that should be taken into account.)

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4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Except voting for Trump? That's kind of a huge qualifier, isn't it? 

No, I don't think so, when she is a registered Independent who voted for Amy Klobuchar. Simply having voted for Trump in 2016 does NOT automatically mean you are a Trump fanatic who is out to get all Democratic office holders.

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7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

In Texas?

Anywhere, outside of maybe the Rust Belt. 

 

5 minutes ago, Ormond said:

No, I don't think so, when she is a registered Independent who voted for Amy Klobuchar. Simply having voted for Trump in 2016 does NOT automatically mean you are a Trump fanatic who is out to get all Democratic office holders.

Not saying she's a Trump fanatic. I'm saying that voting for Trump very likely paints you as being Right. 

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13 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Well, CNN reports about the latest accuser:

Lindsay and Jeremy Menz moved from Minnesota to Texas in 2014. Lindsay Menz is now a stay-at-home-mom of three young kids. Neither is registered with a political party and she said she has equally supported Republican and Democratic candidates while he said he has tended to favor Republicans. The couple voted last year for Donald Trump, and Menz said she has voted for Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, who is a Democrat, in the past. Menz said she believes she has voted for Franken as well, but is not sure.

Really? The most contested Senate election in recent memory (won by Franken by 225 votes after a grueling campaign and recount that was widely reported on in both local and national media) and 'she believes she has voted for Franken as well, but is not sure'? That seems somewhat... unlikely, but well...

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13 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

So much this! Once I even shared a room with 3 guys - all platonic (which means I was sharing a bed with one of them).  There's this thing called respect. I trusted all 3 of them implicitly.  

My most frequent roommate is someone who once was even a little attracted to me, but I have never once worried about so much as a creepy stare with him. 

Having desires and thoughts is NORMAL, acting like an ass because of them is simply a lack of control/caring/respect whichever you want to call it

You've confused the point. I'm not talking about action; I'm talking about expectations:

4 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

Because the relationships of men and women implicitly denote sexual expectations.

Expectations are thoughts, not acts.

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