Sexual Assault Scandals 3- the Fempire Strikes Back

[Eggegg]

3 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

Well heterosexual attraction exhibited by men has been demonized for years and still is. This period is not at all "sex-positive." Sure, we've seen more and more inclusion of LGBTQ, but sex-positivism is not necessarily about the inclusion of sexuality, but broadly the perception of sex itself. Customs and courting etiquette have been incredibly feminized to the point where every word and action must accommodate some hypersensitive laundry list. I mean, look at the responses here: having just an expectation of sexual interaction is "a betrayal of trust," "being a chode," "disgusting" "conducive to sexual harassment, assault, or rape." And men who have multiple female partners are rebuked. I agree that as long as no one is being harmed or violated, it should all be potatoes and gravy. Unfortunately, we've been arbitrarily expanding the concepts of violation and harm.

Yes I would agree with some of this statement, I would say that many elements of traditional male sexuality are now considered dangerous and problematic, and it leaves men in a difficult position. 

There is still the expectation that men initiate sexual contact, and that they be confident and masculine. At the same time they need to be incredibly socially aware in order to read signals and not overstep any boundaries or say the wrong thing at the wrong time. 

I can say as a young man growing up I was incredibly terrified of over stepping the mark, of telling a girl I was interested in having sex with her. Society told me that I would be considered a creep for even doing that. That led to me being a virtual virgin for a long time. I’m glad later on I realised that I didn’t need to hide my own feelings, and I learnt that by being a bit more direct and honest with my own attraction to women I would end up being much more sexually satisfied and happy with my love life.

ive discussed it with my friends on many occasion and there is a lot of agreement that they are drooling over almost every attractive woman but feel absolutely ashamed of it , and would never talk to such a girl or express desire for them because they are so scared of being labelled a creep or being accused of harassment. Unfounded fears I think but that is what they are taught to expect.

The multiple partners thing is true as well, I’m not sure where in movies or tv you’d see a guy with multiple partners who isn’t considered  a dog or an ass. Even James Bond is now expected to being a long term relationship and not initiate sexual contact with women without being rebuked. 

Society is changing and leaving men in a very confusing place with numerous mixed signals. 

Personally I think you would do more to prevent sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour by actually dealing with the issues men are finding and experiencing and educating them, than simply shouting at them.

[Yukle]

4 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

No, I've stated that it's nonsensical.

Not it's not. Absolutely not, even a tiny bit. Harassment is illegal, and well it should be. It's hard to enforce and hard to prove. It's not unique in that. It should not have to be tolerated or part of society at all.

[BigFatCoward]

16 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Yes I would agree with some of this statement, I would say that many elements of traditional male sexuality are now considered dangerous and problematic, and it leaves men in a difficult position. 

There is still the expectation that men initiate sexual contact, and that they be confident and masculine. At the same time they need to be incredibly socially aware in order to read signals and not overstep any boundaries or say the wrong thing at the wrong time. 

I can say as a young man growing up I was incredibly terrified of over stepping the mark, of telling a girl I was interested in having sex with her. Society told me that I would be considered a creep for even doing that. That led to me being a virtual virgin for a long time. I’m glad later on I realised that I didn’t need to hide my own feelings, and I learnt that by being a bit more direct and honest with my own attraction to women I would end up being much more sexually satisfied and happy with my love life.

ive discussed it with my friends on many occasion and there is a lot of agreement that they are drooling over almost every attractive woman but feel absolutely ashamed of it , and would never talk to such a girl or express desire for them because they are so scared of being labelled a creep or being accused of harassment. Unfounded fears I think but that is what they are taught to expect.

The multiple partners thing is true as well, I’m not sure where in movies or tv you’d see a guy with multiple partners who isn’t considered  a dog or an ass. Even James Bond is now expected to being a long term relationship and not initiate sexual contact with women without being rebuked. 

Society is changing and leaving men in a very confusing place with numerous mixed signals. 

Personally I think you would do more to prevent sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour by actually dealing with the issues men are finding and experiencing and educating them, than simply shouting at them.

That's not how you start the conversation, and it would be very creepy. 

There really aren't mixed signals, when someone wants to bang you, its pretty obvious, if you ignore the signals that they don't, thats when problems happen.

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

That's not how you start the conversation, and it would be very creepy. 

There really aren't mixed signals, when someone wants to bang you, its pretty obvious, if you ignore the signals that they don't, thats when problems happen.

I would disagree that they are obvious because not everyone responds in the same way. What would you say these obvious signals are?  Someone smiling at you? Someone is in your room? Someone is wearing a short skirt? Your in very dangerous territory if you think any of that is true.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Kelli Fury said:

... Pretty much all of us have been viciously insulted by a man we said no thank you to. The only usually successful way to avoid this is to replace I’m not interested with I have a boyfriend because a lot of dudes respect some imaginary other dude but not your ability to not be into them. ...

This was written really well, so everyone should refer to the original post.

As an example of this at its most extreme, I married much younger than my friends, so it wasn't unusual to still go out with them in clubs and whatnot (ah... the days before children).

Getting back to the point, I entered the habit of cradling my head in my left hand at times, so my rings were visible. I can recall a few times when I got some variation of, "I'm sure your husband won't mind one night..."

While that was rare, the way I was sitting was the only reliable way I had to break off unwanted conversations at times. Even saying, "No thanks, I am flattered, but sorry. You're nice, but I'm taken," didn't work. Showing my rings usually led to, "Oh, you're married? Sorry."

It shouldn't have taken that, though.

[mankytoes]

5 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sexual attraction isn't spoken about negatively.  In fact this is probably the most sex positive period in modern times (western culture).  What's talked about negatively is when sexuality is acted upon in a way that violates the bodily autonomy of another person.  Those sexually attracted to children, for example.  Those who grope, those who harass, etc.  I have no idea why you think you aren't allowed to notice attractive people (assuming these were adult females and not actually girls) so long as you aren't doing something that violates them in some way.  It's creepy what you wrote, but what's in a stranger's head when he or she walks by me doesn't matter to me if they aren't acting it out in some way.

You kind of proved my point there- you say attraction isn't seen negatively, but then call me creepy for expressing my sexual attraction. 

i guess it has got better. It's just guys have to be careful what they say, or they're pervs. And girls have to be careful what they say, or they're sluts. It's like people want to interpret anything sexual you say as negatively as possible.

[BigFatCoward]

29 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I would disagree that they are obvious because not everyone responds in the same way. What would you say these obvious signals are?  Someone smiling at you? Someone is in your room? Someone is wearing a short skirt? Your in very dangerous territory if you think any of that is true.

None of those things are signals. 

 

[mankytoes]

38 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

There really aren't mixed signals, when someone wants to bang you, its pretty obvious, if you ignore the signals that they don't, thats when problems happen.

I'm kind of shocked anyone has never experienced confusion over this. I've seen women hanging off men's arms, and the guy has no idea she's interested. And some girls are just really coy, and then get annoyed when nothing happens- partly a result of slut shaming, I think. They want sex, but they can't be seen to want it too much.

This is another case of people wanting an issue to be dead simple, when there are complications.

[Eggegg]

7 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

None of those things are signals. 

 

Of course. I'm not saying they are. I was asking you what you thought the signals were.

 

Quote

I'm kind of shocked anyone has never experienced confusion over this. I've seen women hanging off men's arms, and the guy has no idea she's interested. And some girls are just really coy, and then get annoyed when nothing happens- partly a result of slut shaming, I think. They want sex, but they can't be seen to want it too much.

This is another case of people wanting an issue to be dead simple, when there are complications

Exactly, its all very complicated and difficult to navigate, and many men are simply unequipped to do it. 

 

[mankytoes]

17 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

None of those things are signals. 

 

Seriously though, there is no set list of signals. I had one occasion where a girl gave me every signal you can think of, but backed away when I tried to kiss her (she wasn't just being a bitch, it's complicated). You can't just think that because she's given certain signals that you're in. It can be frustrating or whatever, but it's certainly a lot less of a problem than the shit girls go through in these situations.

[lessthanluke]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

 when someone wants to bang you, its pretty obvious, 

Not really. I am pretty oblivious to these signals. As I have been told by multiple women hah.

[Alarich II]

I've "witnessed" one instance of sexual harassement at work, that was a few years ago: I was still working for a Big4 auditing firm and co-leading an audit team of about 5 persons (3 women, me, and an intern). As the deadlines came nearer we got reinforcements got from our consultant Division in the form of a guy who was about 1 or two years my junior, not very efficient but a braggart and - as it turned out - a groper.

Me and my co-leader (one of the 3 women) were a great team, so after we finished our audit, me and the three women went out for dinner and drinks and we startet talking, and I started gossiping about this consultant guy. I was laughing about his totally over the top self-promotion that didn't reflect at all in his work, when two of the women told me, that he groped them (sitting close, putting his hand on their thighs). I must admit, that I was absolutely steamrollered, because it was the first instance of sexual harassment I did personally witness in the professional sphere (after 4.5 years in this job). So I basically said, that we have to report this. They kinda laughed it off and said that since he will not return to the team they would not report this. I offered that I could do this for them and not disclose their names. They said no. So I let it be and I left the company a year later and never saw this guy again.

Sometimes I still wonder about a few things, like why didn't they tell me immediately? Did they really think I would not stick up for them? I mean, our team worked great and we did share a lot of personal stuff too, so I wonder if it was simply because I am a man? The other thing is - I got kinda paranoid and wonder how much more of this stuff is going on totally unreported and I found that akward in other team-leading positions because I didn't really know how to deal with this.

I also ask myself if I shouldn't have ignored them and reported it anyway, because let's face it: the guy will work in other teams with women and probably get a position of seniority. So yeah, in that instance years ago, I didn't really think and argue it all through, but today I wonder.

[Seli]

15 hours ago, Eggegg said:

The idea that you can control men’s sexuality or make them not sexualise women is one of the most barmy and silly ideas going. Most major religions seem to have been attempting it for millennia! And they all failed. Because it’s inherent to being a male. It’s difficult for women to understand because you aren’t men. 

 

Can't think of any Abrahamic religion that does that, they seem focussed on reinforcing the sexualization by placing the burden on the women. Is it perhaps true for the Eastern tradition?

[Eggegg]

What I see as a common factor in all these cases is that the men involved seem to have incredibly poor social calibration skills and an inability to read signals (which as discussed I think is a difficult enough task on its own for most guys as signals are purposely ambiguous and covert).

These men also appear to have zero understanding of how to attract or talk to a woman and express interest in them in a socially calibrated and subtle way. I mean we are talking about men groping bums and boobs, making sexually explicit remarks and worse. These are the sort of things children do, by that I mean making over the top gestures as a way of protecting themselves from appearing sincere and avoiding rejection. Its ridiculous that any guy thinks these are acceptable forms of behaviour, or that they are accepted forms of showing your attraction to people. 

But these men do think its ok for some reason. I have no idea why so many men are so bad at this, well I do have some idea. I mean if you go to online dating for instance you will see thousands of guys with photos of their tops off, sending dick pics to women.. seemingly oblivious to how poorly received that kind of behaviour is. Maybe its because in a male world that is what they would want to see and so they don't get that not everyone thinks like them.

I think all these harassers and men we are seeing in the media now are sexually frustrated losers who have developed a number of poor assumptions and behaviours over the years, have no idea how and when to express interest in women and resort to tactics which are completely unacceptable or worse abuse their power to get what they want. 

I'm not sure what the solution is, maybe some men need to be taught how to flirt with women and read signals and in what situation is it ok to do something and when is it not, and not get angry if they get rejected. 

 

[Eggegg]

8 minutes ago, Seli said:

Can't think of any Abrahamic religion that does that, they seem focussed on reinforcing the sexualization by placing the burden on the women. Is it perhaps true for the Eastern tradition?

They all force the women to cover up because mens sexuality is so difficult to control and should be prevented from any level of temptation. 

[BigFatCoward]

56 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Not really. I am pretty oblivious to these signals. As I have been told by multiple women hah.

Better oblivious to actual signals, than imagining ones that aren't there.

Maybe i should have phrased it better, the signals that someone isn't into you are always there.

[Eggegg]

26 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Better oblivious to actual signals, than imagining ones that aren't there.

Maybe i should have phrased it better, the signals that someone isn't into you are always there.

Apart from obvious disgust, what are these signals?

[Seli]

37 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

They all force the women to cover up because mens sexuality is so difficult to control and should be prevented from any level of temptation. 

Ah, so the religions did not try to control male sexuality at all. I thought I missed something.

[mormont]

If you have trouble reading signals of romantic or sexual interest, the solution is for you to work on getting better at reading people. It can be done.

[Eggegg]

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

If you have trouble reading signals of romantic or sexual interest, the solution is for you to work on getting better at reading people. It can be done.

How does someone go about doing that?