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YOVMO

Lady Forlorn/Lady Stark

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Recently watched the Order of Green Hand Video on Lady Forlorn being original ice, being light bringer and Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Florian the Fool being Azor Ahai and Rose of the Red Water being Nissa Nissa.

 

i have to say with Order of the Green Hand, I really think they are hit and miss. But this one really struck me as hitting quite a few bases. Does anyone who has seen this have an opinion on it? I would be very curious to see the take away, negative or positive, from the crowd here.

 

thanks!

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Recently watched the Order of Green Hand Video on Lady Forlorn being original ice, being light bringer and Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Florian the Fool being Azor Ahai and Rose of the Red Water being Nissa Nissa.

 

i have to say with Order of the Green Hand, I really think they are hit and miss. But this one really struck me as hitting quite a few bases. Does anyone who has seen this have an opinion on it? I would be very curious to see the take away, negative or positive, from the crowd here.

 

thanks!

I've sure missed you.    Good to see you back and starting conversation!   

I've see the video, but I watch all the videos.   OotGH is a lot of fun, but the primary goal seems to be to find new, unusual or unpopular ways to fit their ideas together.   All I can do is refer to the main series when it gets sticky like this.   So I offer a big fat resounding horse hockey on this one.   The main series tells us Ice and Lady Forlorn were the last of the VS blades to import to Westeros from Valyria.  The main book gives us very little insight as to the mechanics, workings and real motives of the 1st First Men.   I've gone back and reread all the Garth stuff from the not main series and this is supposition, Yovmo, no more.  Now I know you are an investigator with no fear of those shadowed corners my friend.   My main question to you would be be to what purpose?   Melisandre from Asshai brings us the take of Azor Ahai.  That tale is backed up by a foreign priate, Salador Saan.    For this alone I will accept that Axor Ahai is an Essosi thing, elusively.  Westeros has it's own Last Hero tale--why does AA have to be Westerosi?  

There have been so many ideas sprout up since the World Book was published.   They're furn and fascinating, but they are not main story and all I have is main story when an idea is plainly in conflict with information given in ASOIAF.   

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49 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I've sure missed you.    Good to see you back and starting conversation!   

I've see the video, but I watch all the videos.   OotGH is a lot of fun, but the primary goal seems to be to find new, unusual or unpopular ways to fit their ideas together.   All I can do is refer to the main series when it gets sticky like this.   So I offer a big fat resounding horse hockey on this one.   The main series tells us Ice and Lady Forlorn were the last of the VS blades to import to Westeros from Valyria.  The main book gives us very little insight as to the mechanics, workings and real motives of the 1st First Men.   I've gone back and reread all the Garth stuff from the not main series and this is supposition, Yovmo, no more.  Now I know you are an investigator with no fear of those shadowed corners my friend.   My main question to you would be be to what purpose?   Melisandre from Asshai brings us the take of Azor Ahai.  That tale is backed up by a foreign priate, Salador Saan.    For this alone I will accept that Axor Ahai is an Essosi thing, elusively.  Westeros has it's own Last Hero tale--why does AA have to be Westerosi?  

There have been so many ideas sprout up since the World Book was published.   They're furn and fascinating, but they are not main story and all I have is main story when an idea is plainly in conflict with information given in ASOIAF.   

Glad to be back Curled Finger. As the temperature drops I look towards yet another re-read so I have been sticking my toes in. I will be trying to finalize last years idea about Harps...who knows....but glad to be back nonetheless.

I do see what you are saying about what the purpose is, and that is a favorite of mine when it comes to the validity of a theory. I would say that IF it is the case that grrm is a closed system thinker and that this story all fits together then it would serve a purpose because it shows how different interpretations of the same thing over many thousands of years can lead to different beliefs all with the same origin (aa/ptwp/last hero)  Also OotHG does make a case that there is evidence of Lady Forlorn from the dawn age and so predating valyria> I need to rewatch the video. I honestly can't even say if I buy it or not but my guess here is that, similar to PJ, they tossed a whole lot of stuff out there and if you cull through enough of it you can find some real great nuggets (for instance, I am totally on board with the tale of Bael the Bard being about Rhaegar and Lyanna)

 

It is going to take me a little while to get back in the swing of things, but sure enough I am shining my tinfoil hat.

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Now I'm curious, which video is it? I can't find it.

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7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Recently watched the Order of Green Hand Video on Lady Forlorn being original ice, being light bringer and Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Florian the Fool being Azor Ahai and Rose of the Red Water being Nissa Nissa.

i have to say with Order of the Green Hand, I really think they are hit and miss. But this one really struck me as hitting quite a few bases. Does anyone who has seen this have an opinion on it? I would be very curious to see the take away, negative or positive, from the crowd here.

thanks!

So, everything is really something else. That's the westeros forums for ya!

 

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7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Glad to be back Curled Finger. As the temperature drops I look towards yet another re-read so I have been sticking my toes in. I will be trying to finalize last years idea about Harps...who knows....but glad to be back nonetheless.

I do see what you are saying about what the purpose is, and that is a favorite of mine when it comes to the validity of a theory. I would say that IF it is the case that grrm is a closed system thinker and that this story all fits together then it would serve a purpose because it shows how different interpretations of the same thing over many thousands of years can lead to different beliefs all with the same origin (aa/ptwp/last hero)  Also OotHG does make a case that there is evidence of Lady Forlorn from the dawn age and so predating valyria> I need to rewatch the video. I honestly can't even say if I buy it or not but my guess here is that, similar to PJ, they tossed a whole lot of stuff out there and if you cull through enough of it you can find some real great nuggets (for instance, I am totally on board with the tale of Bael the Bard being about Rhaegar and Lyanna)

 

It is going to take me a little while to get back in the swing of things, but sure enough I am shining my tinfoil hat.

Yah that mention of Lady Forlorn back in the day in the World Book floored me when I 1st read it.   But, I believe that Elio clarified that this was an error.   It's sort of like the ICE deal, where the original Lady was perhaps lost in time.  Valyrian Steel Lady Forlorn has only been around maybe 300 years.   I see our friend @Cridefea has popped in and she is the one who got our timeline to publish so she can verify when VS Lady Forlorn actually appeared.   Besides, you know how big a deal the swords are in my world.   I'm having a very hard time placing the very fierce father of the entire Stark family in a situation where he would 1) carry a Vale sword 2) allow himself to be known as Fool anything.   

Yovmo, I love it that you're researching and watching and fixin' to reread.   Me too!   I banned rereads for 2017 so I'm looking forward to getting back to it.  So here's one for when you have time.   History of Westeros came out with a you tube video about the crypts of Winterfell last night in my neck of the woods.  Now this is packed with stuff that never crossed my mind, like the passage ways through the crypts only allow humans to walk single file.   A dragon could not fit to go lay a clutch.    There may be other places, but the crypts we know and love simply don't allow for dragon eggs here.   It's long, I think I took 2 naps during the watch last night!   But I also don't recall Brandon of the Bloody Blade being mentioned as being buried there.    It's very interesting stuff when we reach back and bring the originals out for inspection.   

(Please forgive the numerous typos and misspelling.   Surgery a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still pain killered to the gills.   Will do better soon!   

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17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 u Now I know you are an investigator with no fear of those shadowed corners my friend.   My main question to you would be be to what purpose?   Melisandre from Asshai brings us the take of Azor Ahai.  That tale is backed up by a foreign priate, Salador Saan.    For this alone I will accept that Axor Ahai is an Essosi thing, elusively.  Westeros has it's own Last Hero tale--why does AA have to be Westerosi?  

I think  that one of the overarching themes of ASoIaF literary analysis is the idea that significant events in the distant past left an indelible stamp on human history, such that diverse and dispersed cultures will carry common threads of the story into their own mythologies.  Like the pervasive Great Flood myth in real life.

It is very fun for a lot of people to try and identify those threads and look for symbolism and meaning, through clues real or imagined.  

This is possible because GRRM deliberately avoids concrete historical facts*, providing instead versions of those facts as told by various narrators and their in-universe sources. It's up to the reader to decide which sources to trust and which to ignore.

By contrast, an author like Tolkein presents history as a definite thing that you can take to the bank. The stories in the Silmarilion, for example, are internal and meta-canon because there are beings in the story's present timeline that have literally been alive  during and since the distant past and can remember the events firsthand.

 I'm not saying that Azor Ahai and  the Last Hero were the same guy, but lots of armchair analysts think they might be, so that's why they "have to be".  At least on the forums, lol.

 

 

*He tends to document recent history very well, and distant history very vaguely.  

 

 

 

Edited by Reekazoid
Clarifying a point.

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9 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

I think  that one of the overarching themes of ASoIaF literary analysis is the idea that significant events in the distant past left an indelible stamp on human history, such that diverse and dispersed cultures will carry common threads of the story into their own mythologies.  Like the pervasive Great Flood myth in real life.

It is very fun for a lot of people to try and identify those threads and look for symbolism and meaning, through clues real or imagined.  

This is possible because GRRM deliberately avoids concrete historical facts*, providing instead versions of those facts as told by various narrators and their in-universe sources. It's up to the reader to decide which sources to trust and which to ignore.

By contrast, an author like Tolkein presents history as a definite thing that you can take to the bank. The stories in the Silmarilion, for example, are internal and meta-canon because there are beings in the story's present timeline that have literally been alive  during and since the distant past and can remember the events firsthand.

 I'm not saying that Azor Ahai and  the Last Hero were the same guy, but lots of armchair analysts think they might be, so that's why they "have to be".  At least on the forums, lol.

*He tends to document recent history very well, and distant history very vaguely. 

Valid points one and all my friend.    Thanks for bringing yet another facet of this diamond to light.   My biggest problem with AA being TLH is the swords.   I'm sorry, but I take pride in being a sword geek and finding as much preposterous and impossible in the swords as everyone else finds in everything else.    TLH is not said to have a magic sword.    This is something we spend a lot of time working with: What the hell are these magic swords for if not end game?    If we take the legends side by side assuming they originated a the same time under the same circumstances where are AA's companions and where is TLH's lightbringer?   In world swords are wicked important--too important for TLH not to have a sword of merit and mention.   I think it unlikely that they are the same.   Even if they performed the same function in different places.     I would be more inclined to accept these heroes if I could find any similarity between them.    Open to suggestions here.   

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On 11/17/2017 at 1:31 PM, Cridefea said:

Now I'm curious, which video is it? I can't find it.

Hi Cridefea

 

 

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22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah that mention of Lady Forlorn back in the day in the World Book floored me when I 1st read it.   But, I believe that Elio clarified that this was an error.   It's sort of like the ICE deal, where the original Lady was perhaps lost in time.  Valyrian Steel Lady Forlorn has only been around maybe 300 years.   I see our friend @Cridefea has popped in and she is the one who got our timeline to publish so she can verify when VS Lady Forlorn actually appeared.   Besides, you know how big a deal the swords are in my world.   I'm having a very hard time placing the very fierce father of the entire Stark family in a situation where he would 1) carry a Vale sword 2) allow himself to be known as Fool anything.   

I really love swords and sword lore (and am still broken up that george denied long claw was backfyre....really wanted that one.

As for Stark carrying a vale sword -- to play devil's advocate keeping in mind that I don't subscribe to the ootgh theory only wondered what other people thought -- that LF was a vale sword could have/would have, in this scenario, happened years after brandon was long gone and 2) how the singers remember someone or how they name them would rarely be something that the person, in their life time, would allow themselves to be called.

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yovmo, I love it that you're researching and watching and fixin' to reread.   Me too!   I banned rereads for 2017 so I'm looking forward to getting back to it. 

We seem to be con the same paths! I couldn't be more pleased.

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

So here's one for when you have time.   History of Westeros came out with a you tube video about the crypts of Winterfell last night in my neck of the woods. 

Oh boy...gonna be a long night. lol

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Now this is packed with stuff that never crossed my mind, like the passage ways through the crypts only allow humans to walk single file.   A dragon could not fit to go lay a clutch.    There may be other places, but the crypts we know and love simply don't allow for dragon eggs here.   It's long, I think I took 2 naps during the watch last night!   But I also don't recall Brandon of the Bloody Blade being mentioned as being buried there.    It's very interesting stuff when we reach back and bring the originals out for inspection.   

I will listen prior to replying, but I will say that I think that the crypts of winterfell can change size...not unlike the mouth of the weirwood in the black gate. I have reasons for this, but let me watch the video first.

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

(Please forgive the numerous typos and misspelling.   Surgery a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still pain killered to the gills.   Will do better soon!   

 Typos are always forgiven. I'm not such a stickler as some....I know what you mean. I certainly hope whatever surgery you had was a success and that you will be mended and well lickety split. Enjoy the pain killers :)

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The biggest issue I have with the tying of Azor Ahai into Westerosi myth is his Essosi origins. We have never really had an Azor Ahai story crop up in the Seven Kingdoms from its natives. It was the Last Hero who ended the Long Night, not Azor Ahai, and he is tied into a very different "plot" as to how he tried to defeat the Others.

The Last Hero went on a journey with twelve companions, a horse and a dog to find the Children of the Forest. He searched for years; all his companions died and his sword broke. He did eventually find the Children of the Forest and they presumably helped him. The likely answer was that he was provided with dragonglass to kill the Others with. Say what you like about Old Nan's stories, they at least line-up with what we know about the World of ASOIAF. As of now, there is no clear indication that Azor Ahai ever actually fought against the Others, we only presume he might of because he "fought the darkness". The only complete story we have of him is how he made his sword, which feels more symbolic than the Last Hero's quest described above. Even taken literally, what it appears to be describing is a man using blood magic to reinforce his weapon.

In regards to the parallels between the two, both involve a hero fighting mythical foe and broken swords. The Last Hero fights the Others but sword breaks due to the coldness they bring while Azor Ahai fights "the darkness" and his entire legend involves him trying to stop his sword from breaking when he tempers it. There could also be a connection to the types of sword that the Last Hero ended up fighting the Others with and Azor Ahai's "burning sword". Sam finds an account of the Last Hero, stating he used a "dragonsteel" sword to kill the Others. Calling it " dragonsteel " might be an indicator that it was a.) not created in Valyria and b.) might be related to dragonglass. The whole link between dragons and burning could be related to Azor Ahai's "burning sword". However, I think a much more likely explanation is that the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are myths from two completely different sources describing with only the Long Night being their common thread.

What we might be seeing is two different mythical allusions to how humans worked out the secret of creating swords like Valyrian steel? AA's myth suggests a need for blood magic while the Last Hero *might* suggest the use of dragonglass as we know this kills Others.

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On 18/11/2017 at 9:29 PM, YOVMO said:

Hi Cridefea

 

 

thank you @YOVMO!

It's really interesting when it compares the different legends, but ...as for the names origins.... well I don't think it is correct. 

Forlorn and Stark seems a bit stretched to me. If I understand well, all the theory about LF is based on this.... So if we have to base it on the name, I think Heartsbane fits better :P and it is also the oldest VS, we don't know where it came from.

Brandon doesn't exists in Italian, but there is Brando (sword) that's the german name they were talking about. But they are two totally different names with different origins. It could be that GRRM used Brando, but I think he used BrandoN for the raven reference.

On 17/11/2017 at 11:49 PM, Curled Finger said:

I believe that Elio clarified that this was an error.   It's sort of like the ICE deal, where the original Lady was perhaps lost in time.  Valyrian Steel Lady Forlorn has only been around maybe 300 years.   I see our friend @Cridefea has popped in and she is the one who got our timeline to publish so she can verify when VS Lady Forlorn actually appeared. 

Yes I remember the error, I think you're right. VS Lady Forlorn appears just prior the Doom in our timeline, but right now i really can't understand why XD

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I think they're right in looking to the legends for answers, and that some of them may be connected. Though i dont think they all are. Some are about the same people,  while some are about other people who's legends still point to the main narrative. 

Take Galladon of Morne. The maiden fell in love with him, a star literally falling. Same falling star legend from Bloodstone, Hugor and First Dayne legends. 

Galladon only used the Sword 3x and not once against a mortal?

Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer in Water, a Lion, and Nissa Nissa.

Water= Ice= Others

Tiger= Cat's Eye= Children of the Forest

Nissa Nissa= The blue eyed bride from Hugor and the Night's King legend. 

I could go on but needless to say, there are definitely connections that alot of people miss. That are hard to walk every one through each one and spoon feed. Self discovery is also more fun

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Florian fought a Giant and a Dragon, just like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and both were said to wield a famous sword. 

Serwyn rumored to be a Knight in the King's Guard to a Targaryen King (later shown to be from House Gardener). Serwyn is often paired with Aemon the Dragon Knight. Another Knight in the King's Guard to a Targaryen King. His brother, the King, who suspected his kids by Naerys were actually Aemons.

Martin i think is trying to tell us something

(I should also mention that there is a rumored Rainbow Knight, and Renly just happens to form a Rainbow Gaurd.)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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I would say at the least, that our Heroes wife, was either a COTF. Or a hybrid of them and the Sea Race. Hence Elenai and Durran.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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On 17/11/2017 at 5:05 AM, YOVMO said:

 Lady Forlorn being original ice, being light bringer and Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Florian the Fool being Azor Ahai and Rose of the Red Water being Nissa Nissa.

 

Beaut

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8 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Beaut

I like them and we have talked about this. Consider this

Garth= God on Earth Emperor

Brandon of the Bloody Blade = Pearl Emperor

Brandon the Builder = Bloodstone Emperor and Knights King.

Garth's family was the gemstone Emperors

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The Grey King would thus be Brandon the Builder, and his leal eldest brother, would be House Gardener.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—

 

 

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The Stark's took their sigil of a Grey Wolf on a white field from Gravin Greywolf after they invaded the North and Conquered it. The untold Andal Invasion of the North. 

You know what's under Winterfell, a sept ahahha (half kidding)

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