Angel Eyes

So what exactly is

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Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

Her primary purpose is to set up Jon's resurrection after getting stabbed by the mutineers. Her second purpose is to harry the crown loyalists and slowly cut down their ranks setting up a confrontation and take down of the Freys  

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5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

Last I read she is having Breinne bring Jaime to her. Jaime did confess to Cat that he tossed Bran.

Why was she resurrected? I dunna know.

I gotta give LSH some slack. Her husband was beheaded. She witnessed Roose stabbing her son Robb. Sansa is married off to a Lannister. Arya is believed to be dead. Bran & Rickon are believed to be dead and WF has been laid to ruin (by Bolton’s).

Her purpose? Lady Stoneheart is about revenge. In this particular story I hope she gets it.

Forget PC. Think about the author’s age and comic books and the Punisher. Before comics got graphic they merely told a cheap and easy fantasy tale that was published every 30 days.

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

She was raised from the dead because of Harwin's pleading.  It was more out grief and emotional attachment to a good person who was savagely murdered, much like Arya asking if it's possible to bring her father back. 

Quote

"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose."

It was not for the purpose of leading the BwB to scour the Riverlands out of vengeance, but things happen when someone's been dead for 3 days and her last memories are of betrayal and murder.  Beric was also pretty tired of being brought back at that point, so I can see why he decided to give up his flame of life.  I just don't think anyone thought Cat would become LSH, because Beric was still mostly Beric and a decent, fair man.  The effects of bringing someone back to life is still uncharted territory.  Her leadership is definitely more appealing to the more extreme members of the BwB like Lem Lemoncloak, who wanted the Hound dead for his brother's crimes.  She's not killing at random, but she is targeting Freys and Lannisters or anyone who might be their associates like Brienne who is carrying Oathkeeper and documents signed and sealed by King Tommen.  Yeah that could mean even Freys who had nothing to do with the RW have a target on their backs.  And we're getting set up for a potential Red WEdding 2.0 with the marriage of Daven Lannister (?) to a Frey girl.  It's also apparent by the BwB asking Merritt Frey if he's seen Arya with the Hound that she is also actively searching for Arya, so she's not single-minded in her goals.  So that's how LSH is probably going to move the plot forward in the Riverlands.  Of course, who and how she will be finally put to rest, given the gift of mercy, will be narratively satisfying for whichever character is tasked with doing it.  I'm 90% sure that's Arya.  It's a really sad story that Cat who argued passionately against vengeance became LSH, who is the living embodiment of unbridled vengeance.        

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

So far, there mustn't be a villain Stark in the story. 

So the author created her, to serve this purpose. George Martin pulled (somewhat) a Darth Vader/Anakin on Cat because he couldn't let her live and become what Lady Stoneheart is while being intact. It wouldn't work that way.

 

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14 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

She was raised from the dead because of Harwin's pleading.  It was more out grief and emotional attachment to a good person who was savagely murdered, much like Arya asking if it's possible to bring her father back. 

It was not for the purpose of leading the BwB to scour the Riverlands out of vengeance, but things happen when someone's been dead for 3 days and her last memories are of betrayal and murder.  Beric was also pretty tired of being brought back at that point, so I can see why he decided to give up his flame of life.  I just don't think anyone thought Cat would become LSH, because Beric was still mostly Beric and a decent, fair man.  The effects of bringing someone back to life is still uncharted territory.  Her leadership is definitely more appealing to the more extreme members of the BwB like Lem Lemoncloak, who wanted the Hound dead for his brother's crimes.  She's not killing at random, but she is targeting Freys and Lannisters or anyone who might be their associates like Brienne who is carrying Oathkeeper and documents signed and sealed by King Tommen.  Yeah that could mean even Freys who had nothing to do with the RW have a target on their backs.  And we're getting set up for a potential Red WEdding 2.0 with the marriage of Daven Lannister (?) to a Frey girl.  It's also apparent by the BwB asking Merritt Frey if he's seen Arya with the Hound that she is also actively searching for Arya, so she's not single-minded in her goals.  So that's how LSH is probably going to move the plot forward in the Riverlands.  Of course, who and how she will be finally put to rest, given the gift of mercy, will be narratively satisfying for whichever character is tasked with doing it.  I'm 90% sure that's Arya.  It's a really sad story that Cat who argued passionately against vengeance became LSH, who is the living embodiment of unbridled vengeance.        

Nice. I agree & I would love for LSH to pass her flame of life on to Arya. I've always thought it would be Jon but Arya would make sense. 

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16 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So far, there mustn't be a villain Stark in the story. 

So the author created her, to serve this purpose. George Martin pulled (somewhat) a Darth Vader/Anakin on Cat because he couldn't let her live and become what Lady Stoneheart is while being intact. It wouldn't work that way.

 

Give Lady Stoneheart a sword and she'd be a better Darth Vader type. From what I know, Lady Stoneheart doesn't do any fighting.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Give Lady Stoneheart a sword and she'd be a better Darth Vader type. From what I know, Lady Stoneheart doesn't do any fighting.

I didn't mean it literally but more a paralell of two people who got themselves a new name and personality.

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8 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I didn't mean it literally but more a paralell of two people who got themselves a new name and personality.

Well, I just thought she'd be more scary if Lady Stoneheart fought with a sword, like Vader did. She's already got the strangulation part down pat.

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On 11/17/2017 at 1:29 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

Catelyn's fate is worse than being dead.  Her plot is that of someone so corrupted by revenge that she came back as a wight.  I am not a Catelyn hater and she is one of the few Starks that I don't dislike but she was responsible for triggering the WotfK when she arrested Tyrion.  She killed one of the innocents at the twins after Roose Bolton stabbed Robb to keep his promise to Jaime.  There was no call to kill Aegon Frey after Robb was already killed.  Aegon was one of the few in that hall that had nothing whatsoever to do with the war.  Catelyn is a foreshadowing of Arya's path.  Arya is so corrupted that she has become Mini-Stoneheart. 

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14 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

Catelyn's fate is worse than being dead.  Her plot is that of someone so corrupted by revenge that she came back as a wight.  I am not a Catelyn hater and she is one of the few Starks that I don't dislike but she was responsible for triggering the WotfK when she arrested Tyrion.  She killed one of the innocents at the twins after Roose Bolton stabbed Robb to keep his promise to Jaime.  There was no call to kill Aegon Frey after Robb was already killed.  Aegon was one of the few in that hall that had nothing whatsoever to do with the war.  Catelyn is a foreshadowing of Arya's path.  Arya is so corrupted that she has become Mini-Stoneheart. 

Sansa is Cat's look in the mirror.

Arya is Stoneheart's. 

She killed Aegon because she had a mental breakdown which in all honesty, no person in the world wouldn't have there. Not that he deserved it, poor Aegon. 

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2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Sansa is Cat's look in the mirror.

Arya is Stoneheart's. 

She killed Aegon because she had a mental breakdown which in all honesty, no person in the world wouldn't have there. Not that he deserved it, poor Aegon. 

You're saying Catelyn the living woman is the model for Sansa.  Catelyn, the undead Lady Stoneheart, is the model for Arya.  Both Sansa and Arya are the two sides of Catelyn Tully Stark.  Catelyn Tully the living woman = older Sansa.  Catelyn Stark the Stoneheart = where Arya is when we last see her in Braavos.  Arya is becoming Stoneheart. 

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2 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

You're saying Catelyn the living woman is the model for Sansa.  Catelyn, the undead Lady Stoneheart, is the model for Arya.  Both Sansa and Arya are the two sides of Catelyn Tully Stark.  Catelyn Tully the living woman = older Sansa.  Catelyn Stark the Stoneheart = where Arya is when we last see her in Braavos.  Arya is becoming Stoneheart. 

Yes that's what I aimed for. 

Arya is heavily traumatized and lacks remorse and empathy. So the setting for it is there, I agree.

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13 minutes ago, Tour De Force said:

I am not a Catelyn hater and she is one of the few Starks that I don't dislike but she was responsible for triggering the WotfK when she arrested Tyrion.  She killed one of the innocents at the twins after Roose Bolton stabbed Robb to keep his promise to Jaime.  There was no call to kill Aegon Frey after Robb was already killed.  Aegon was one of the few in that hall that had nothing whatsoever to do with the war.  Catelyn is a foreshadowing of Arya's path.  Arya is so corrupted that she has become Mini-Stoneheart. 

The actual "trigger" for the War of the 5 Kings was Petyr Baelish, Littlefinger. It was he who had Lysa send Catelyn a note, written in their own private sister-language, which implicated the Lannisters. Catelyn (correctly, as it turned out) determined that Jaime/Cersei Lannister were most likely to have caused Bran to "fall." Even though it was Joffrey who sent the hired knife (more Lannister involvement!), thanks to dear Petyr, Tyrion Lannister was impllicated - and we, the omniscient readers, know he was the only innocent one. Petyr set Catelyn up to suspect Tyrion with his lies about the dragonbone knife, and it was pure chance that Tyrion's party and Cat's met at the ill-fated Inn at the Crossroads. It was worse luck that Tyrion had to shout out his hearty Well hello there, Lady Stark! What brings you to this part of Westeros? Long way from Winterfell, aren't you? when she was trying to travel incognito, and would have happily let him pass on to King's Landing without a word.

So Catelyn "killed one of the innocent" Freys? Big effing deal - by the time she had done this, Walder's archers, family, and Bolton guests had killed nearly every Stark and Stark supporter in the hall, and the slaughter of all of Robb's troops (10,000 or more) was well underway outside. It's too bad about "Jingles" (the Frey with the Dragon name - snort), but he was collateral damage as much as over 10,000 others. And Walder, you may note, was unconcerned about his demise, so why should we waste our sympathy?

I further take issue with Arya being "corrupted". She's traumatized and working through it, but we have not seen a single killing that she's done that hasn't had a reasonable justification. There may be a reckoning (soon) by the Kindly Man due to her too-frequent freelancing; on the other hand, it may turn out to be extra credit, graduate level work as far as they're concerned. Arya continues to check off her list, but a "mini-Stoneheart"? Not yet.

Since Arya hasn't returned to Westeros, and we see no clear timeline or path for this to happen, then the Stark who's closest to Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn is, ironically, Sansa. Alternatively, the Blackfish, Cat's brother, might possibly run into her.

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13 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Sansa is Cat's look in the mirror.

Arya is Stoneheart's. 

This is really perceptive! And well-phrased!

But I disagree that Arya lacks empathy or remorse. Her extra-House of Black & White assignments with the fishmonger's family and as the Blind Girl show otherwise. Her remorse was clear, back in Westeros at least, when she reviewed her kills and feared that her mother would reject her because of it. (She also felt Cat wouldn't have her, because her hair was all knotty and her fingernails dirty and broken.) But Catelyn is dead, as far as Arya knows. Everybody is dead, save Lord Commander Snow - and soon, she'll get the news of his demise as well.

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6 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is really perceptive! And well-phrased!

But I disagree that Arya lacks empathy or remorse. Her extra-House of Black & White assignments with the fishmonger's family and as the Blind Girl show otherwise. Her remorse was clear, back in Westeros at least, when she reviewed her kills and feared that her mother would reject her because of it. (She also felt Cat wouldn't have her, because her hair was all knotty and her fingernails dirty and broken.) But Catelyn is dead, as far as Arya knows. Everybody is dead, save Lord Commander Snow - and soon, she'll get the news of his demise as well.

Thank you.

While not all humanity is erased in her, and yes, she thinks Robb and Cat would reject her for what she did, I think she lacks remorse (in sense of missing, not erased). 

There's hardly a man she sees which doesn't contemplate kill him, hit him, or wish he was dead. It's a path of a heavily traumatized, threatened and abused kid.

 

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13 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It's a path of a heavily traumatized, threatened and abused kid.

True that!

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On 11/17/2017 at 1:29 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

She's the vehicle of vengeance.  A messed up angel of death.  How you see her will depend on where you stand.  Those who like Robb and hate the Freys will look at Catelyn/FrankenCat with fondness.  Those who are willing to accept that the Freys were badly wronged and did what they had to do to save themselves from Tywin will see her as a villain because revenge doesn't really provide closure.  It's not possible to kill more than a few Freys and Walder's hunters will catch up to the brotherhood before too long.  More blood will be spilled to avenge something that took place during war time. 

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2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Sansa is Cat's look in the mirror.

Arya is Stoneheart's. 

She killed Aegon because she had a mental breakdown which in all honesty, no person in the world wouldn't have there. Not that he deserved it, poor Aegon. 

 

2 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

You're saying Catelyn the living woman is the model for Sansa.  Catelyn, the undead Lady Stoneheart, is the model for Arya.  Both Sansa and Arya are the two sides of Catelyn Tully Stark.  Catelyn Tully the living woman = older Sansa.  Catelyn Stark the Stoneheart = where Arya is when we last see her in Braavos.  Arya is becoming Stoneheart. 

 

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Yes that's what I aimed for. 

Arya is heavily traumatized and lacks remorse and empathy. So the setting for it is there, I agree.

Good work guys/gals.  This is why I come to this forum.  First I have read this analysis of Cat, Sansa, Arya.  

2 hours ago, zandru said:

The actual "trigger" for the War of the 5 Kings was Petyr Baelish, Littlefinger. It was he who had Lysa send Catelyn a note, written in their own private sister-language, which implicated the Lannisters. Catelyn (correctly, as it turned out) determined that Jaime/Cersei Lannister were most likely to have caused Bran to "fall." Even though it was Joffrey who sent the hired knife (more Lannister involvement!), thanks to dear Petyr, Tyrion Lannister was impllicated - and we, the omniscient readers, know he was the only innocent one. Petyr set Catelyn up to suspect Tyrion with his lies about the dragonbone knife, and it was pure chance that Tyrion's party and Cat's met at the ill-fated Inn at the Crossroads. It was worse luck that Tyrion had to shout out his hearty Well hello there, Lady Stark! What brings you to this part of Westeros? Long way from Winterfell, aren't you? when she was trying to travel incognito, and would have happily let him pass on to King's Landing without a word.

So Catelyn "killed one of the innocent" Freys? Big effing deal - by the time she had done this, Walder's archers, family, and Bolton guests had killed nearly every Stark and Stark supporter in the hall, and the slaughter of all of Robb's troops (10,000 or more) was well underway outside. It's too bad about "Jingles" (the Frey with the Dragon name - snort), but he was collateral damage as much as over 10,000 others. And Walder, you may note, was unconcerned about his demise, so why should we waste our sympathy?

I further take issue with Arya being "corrupted". She's traumatized and working through it, but we have not seen a single killing that she's done that hasn't had a reasonable justification. There may be a reckoning (soon) by the Kindly Man due to her too-frequent freelancing; on the other hand, it may turn out to be extra credit, graduate level work as far as they're concerned. Arya continues to check off her list, but a "mini-Stoneheart"? Not yet.

Since Arya hasn't returned to Westeros, and we see no clear timeline or path for this to happen, then the Stark who's closest to Lady Stoneheart/Catelyn is, ironically, Sansa. Alternatively, the Blackfish, Cat's brother, might possibly run into her.

You may be right about the killing of Aegon Frey as unimportant but maybe you're not.  Can you say the Hound killing the butcher boy was unimportant?  Does being handicapped make Aegon less important of a person?  What about that handicapped boy in the north called Bran?  I can debate and say Arya is a handicapped in terms of emotionally and mentally.  Arya's death will be deserving compared to Aegon's.  Aegon Frey was harmless and killing him is like killing the gentle Hodor.  

I don't think the killing of the old man selling insurance was justified.  

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Thank you.

While not all humanity is erased in her, and yes, she thinks Robb and Cat would reject her for what she did, I think she lacks remorse (in sense of missing, not erased). 

There's hardly a man she sees which doesn't contemplate kill him, hit him, or wish he was dead. It's a path of a heavily traumatized, threatened and abused kid.

 

That's not an excuse for killing the old business man in my opinion.  

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2 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

You may be right about the killing of Aegon Frey as unimportant but maybe you're not.  Can you say the Hound killing the butcher boy was unimportant?  Does being handicapped make Aegon less important of a person?  What about that handicapped boy in the north called Bran?  I can debate and say Arya is a handicapped in terms of emotionally and mentally.  Arya's death will be deserving compared to Aegon's.  Aegon Frey was harmless and killing him is like killing the gentle Hodor.  

I don't think the killing of the old man selling insurance was justified.  

I don't think Mycah or Aegon were any less or more important than the other but the circumstances surrounding the deaths are extremely different. The Hound ran down a child & slaughtered him because he was ordered to. Cat failed at using Aegon as a bargaining tool for what she believed to be her last remaining sons life. She was having a mental breakdown. I think the implication is not that a handicapped person is less important but that Cat's entire family has been taken from her, the Frey's have slaughtered her son & his people in front of her & if slitting Aegon's throat is the only retribution she can offer at that moment so be it. It's unfortunate that it happened to be him but I for one am willing to look past it & say I understand why she did it. Aegon was harmless & it could be likened to the killing of Hodor IF Hodor's family had just slaughtered a bunch of people the would be murderer loved. 

I'm undecided on the insurance man. He may have deserved it. If he didn't does the blame lie solely with Arya? I'm inclined to say no. She is a little girl with essentially no where else to go & the people who have offered her food & shelter gave her this task. She is also tired of being helpless & being kicked around & wants to learn quickly to be able to defend her self & avenge the deaths of her family. She is traumatized & not mentally healthy to say the least but given the circumstances I find it hard to ridicule her too much over the insurance man.

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