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Dragonstone mysteries


AlaskanSandman

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9 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I think I said Valyrians not Targaryans, Wolfsbane?.  The Old Keep of Winterfell and Dragonstone have the only gargoyles of their type anywhere.  Archeologically, this proves a connection in architectural style and therefore time and likely the same people.  The Old Keep was presumably built shortly after the Long Night, about the same time as the Wall, but also it seems from the gargoyles, about the same time as Dragonstone give or take a few generations. Therefore, at least in an original incarnation with gargoyles, Dragonstone seems to have been populated by people from Northern Westeros because they brought their architecture style with them.  

Migrations tend to be slow.  These people could have lived for generations on Dragonstone before travelling on to Essos, adding on to the original building in the meantime.  If they already had dragons, which I don't know, the dragon-forged spaces could have been constructed then, or later after these people became the Valyrians, tamed dragons, but made frequent visits  back to their 'homeland', now an outpost, Dragonstone. Over the course of thousands of years, Dragonstone became the castle we see today in the books.

I'd expect the Targs just couldn't be bothered, Alaskansandman. They only had three dragons, the dragon spaces were already constructed, and the Targs didn't stay on Dragonstone that long relatively speaking.

I'm Very interested in your connections between Bran the Builder, places and weddings of all things.

This is what i wonder, if the castle of Dragonstone isn't actually older than we're being told. Remember, there were dragons in Westeros long ago. Clarence the Crabb killed one, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragon Slayer, Galladon of Morne, and Florian the Fool along with the First Hightowers. 

Possibly. Yet, given that K.L. was built to compete with Oldtown and Casterley Rock. It would make more sense for them to use their awesome architecture to build K.L. Yet they didn't. They also never made roads such as those in the east. This suggest to me that either they lost the knowledge, or didn't have the right dragons to do it.

I think this is the ancient narrative. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

sic

I like to think of the tales as half truths, but with truths. 

House Stark, House Hightower, House Durrandon, House Gardener, House Dayne, and House Lannister all are linked. 

House Stark and House Lannister are already rumored to descend from Garth some how, though debated how. 

House Lannister is linked to House Gardener per the earlier quote i posted about the linial claims of the Reach and Westerlands being tied to the founding of Valyria. 

House Hightower wed into the family at the least. Though likely already apart of it and just practicing a lil Valyrian incest to keep the powers strong.

House Dayne is the only one not directly linked by anything other than Dawn, purple, and possible the Azor Ahai/Last Hero legends. The First Dayne could likely be tied to the Bloodstone Emperor also.

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28 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield tipped me.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

 But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted. The septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others, and the singers changed them—sometimes beyond all recognition—for the sake of a warm place in some lord's hall. In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did). The legion of boys and youths made ignorant of the past history of Westeros by these foolish tales cannot be numbered.

 

Notice
 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys's honor against evil Ser Morgil's slanders.
A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I
The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. What do you imagine they'll think when they see Barristan the Bold riding beside Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon?"

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

The Hedge Knight

The old man had lived nigh on sixty years and had never been a champion. It is not too much to hope for, if the gods are good. He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool. They had all won victories against foes far more terrible than any he would face. But they were great heroes, brave men of noble birth, except for Florian. And what am I?

 

 
What's said of Serwyn again?
Quote

 

In such a way does some longdead First Man become a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings thousands of years after he lived (if he ever did)
Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard

 

and what do we know of Aemon? He was a Kings guard knight and brother to the Targaryen Dragon King who loved his sister as did his brother.

So i looked for this cyclic tale and found it.

Aemon vs Aegon IV for Naerys

Daemon Vs Daeron for Daenerys or the throne.

Bloodraven vs Bittersteel for Shiera

Stannis vs Renly for the Throne (Nissa Nissa the Amethyst empress was their path to rule)

Visenya vs Rhaeny for Aegon

Jon vs Aegon for Daenerys. (This just lucked up and lined up based on old theory of Dany as Rhaegars child with Ashara Dayne, and Jon his by Lyanna. Would only thus require F/aegon to be real. Which i touch on else where. Thus creating the cyclic story Martin has presented cleverly in the text.

 
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33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Those are just the statues. Notice how they didn't make ones like the Gargoyles? They lack the ability. Thus they just used the mast heads of their ships. Which, you have to think were already some carved thing, as were most old ships. So could these statues/mast already have been the seven?? Which would explain why it never said they recarved them, or carved them. Just that they've been repainted.

And your mention was interesting and did mention Dragonstone in passing haha i was just curious if there was a deeper connection to Dragonstone that you were trying to get at. :) 

Since the Targs never introduced slavery to Westeros, I wonder if they deliberately rejected the ability? The wiki doesn't say that sacrifice was part of the magic used for Dragonstone, but it seems implied. Relative to the Westerosi, the Targs seem quite magical, but compared to the Valyrians, they seem rather like Muggles. That the statues were the masts of the ships seems oddly specific along with the choice to go to Westeros as opposed to anywhere else..

I mean to look more closely at Dragonstone after I finish a Lannister re-read.

32 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hahaha may be a bit much to delve into to start but your welcome to :) Twoiaf is a good place to start first and even looking at other peoples differing ideas. Im on my own path with most of this but not all as interpretation of that book and what we're being told in all the books greatly effects all our views. I am of the opinion that almost everything the maesters say is not true. Either through ignorance or lying, they are not to be trusted. So i look more to the ancient songs and legends and then realign all the details based on what i think the clues are telling me. Like time details, or that i think most of the ancient tales are tied and telling the same story. Just through different cultures which muddies the picture. 

I've had TWOIAF since it came out but couldn't get into it until recently.

Agreed about the Maesters.

I also like looking for parallels in the books proper for more insight.

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15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Since the Targs never introduced slavery to Westeros, I wonder if they deliberately rejected the ability? The wiki doesn't say that sacrifice was part of the magic used for Dragonstone, but it seems implied. Relative to the Westerosi, the Targs seem quite magical, but compared to the Valyrians, they seem rather like Muggles. That the statues were the masts of the ships seems oddly specific along with the choice to go to Westeros as opposed to anywhere else..

Hmm. You know, i never thought about that oddity haha see :) It is interesting that the Targaryen's didn't practice slavery. Could they have learned their lesson from the Braavosi? or is it to do with their old ties to Westeros? Hmmm. Very interesting. It's been suggested that the Targaryen's also didn't leave do to some prophecy but rather that the political climate or something got too bad in Valyria for Targaryens and they were forced to leave or die. Which makes me wonder about the other "Valyrian religious" colonies. Boash for example were of Valyria, but Lorath didn't become a part of the Freehold proper till after the Boashi. None of these other cities had dragon lords either, just Valyria. 

Exactly. Im smelling something to do with the Faith. 

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've had TWOIAF since it came out but couldn't get into it until recently.

Agreed about the Maesters.

I also like looking for parallels in the books proper for more insight.

Reads like a bad history book haha (Intended to) so it's not very interesting as far as story telling goes. Though the bits and clues it does give, does very much broaden the scope of the story, world, cultures, myths, and past. It's worth getting through though :)

And yessss. I try not to get bogged down by parallels to real world stuff that is likely merely inspiration but not a good go to to solve anything. Basically Martin took alotttt of myth and histories and smashed them together, so you could spend along time just pointing out nods to things and going in circles while never actually getting further in solving anything to do with the books proper. I think he gave you what you need, in the books 

Edit- That is in no way a jab at TWOIAF or Elio and Linda's great work. It's the same style and approach Martin uses in the Princess and the Queen, The Rogue Prince, and Sons of the Dragon :)

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is interesting as the Gargoyles on Dragonstone dont break or erode that we're aware of. The only other Gargoyles described in this condition are the ones on the Old Keep of Winterfell. Which are like 8000 years old supposedly. So assuming erosion works at roughly the same pace, this seems to suggest activity on Dragonstone prior to the Valyrians. 

The Valyrians used sorcery to build the castle, which includes the gargoyles. The gargoyle outside the "weathered little inn" isn't going to be forged from magic Valyrian stone (and neither is the inn), and the gargoyle is sitting on the waterfront, exposed to the sea and salt and rain and wind, so of course it's going to erode. No mystery, no link to Winterfell.

But I was also very curious about Dragonstone, up until TWOIAF was published and answered most of my questions.

And the castle is 600 years old, not 400 - "some two hundred years before the Doom".

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4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The Valyrians used sorcery to build the castle, which includes the gargoyles. The gargoyle outside the "weathered little inn" isn't going to be forged from magic Valyrian stone (and neither is the inn), and the gargoyle is sitting on the waterfront, exposed to the sea and salt and rain and wind, so of course it's going to erode. No mystery, no link to Winterfell.

But I was also very curious about Dragonstone, up until TWOIAF was published and answered most of my questions.

And the castle is 600 years old, not 400 - "some two hundred years before the Doom".

Though Irrelevant, would this possibly mean this is roughly the date Velaryons and Celtigars settled on the Narrow Sea? If so this should also explain why most Valyrian swords are in the range of 400-500 years old; Valyrians only arrived around 600 years ago.

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So i've always had this nagging question about Dragonstone Island, and the Castle it self.

First off, why did no one take Dragonstone prior to the Targaryens? The Island would make a perfect launching point for the Iron born who could then launch against the Western coast and Essos with Ease. Increasing their trade/take network. The Ironborn are also already used to bleak islands so should be no issue there. 

This is interesting as the Gargoyles on Dragonstone dont break or erode that we're aware of. The only other Gargoyles described in this condition are the ones on the Old Keep of Winterfell. Which are like 8000 years old supposedly. So assuming erosion works at roughly the same pace, this seems to suggest activity on Dragonstone prior to the Valyrians. 

 

Aside from this oddity. There is another odd feature of Dragonstone to do with the castle. Built by Valyrians, not Targaryens, has a sept. Why? Valyrians supposedly excepted all religions, and we're not told about their own (just that balerion is a name of one of their gods.). So what gives with this? Aegon was also said to have visited Old Town way before his invasion and supposedly went to his own sept on Dragonstone before invading. Could it be that the Targaryens worshiped the Faith of the Seven? Or a modified version of it? Perhaps like the Church of Starry Wisdom?

 

Thoughts on either of these Dragonstone subjects beyond "No one was interested in Dragonstone cause it was bleak or unknown". That's an easy conclusion, but id rather hypothesize that there is another reason. 

I agree that it is curious that there wasn't a known settlement on Dragonstone before the Valyrians built their black stone citadel and embellished it with dragons and gargoyles.  Maybe any existing settlers were easily removed or maybe even allowed to stay on the island under the rule of the Valyrians? 

I've looked around to confirm your statement about the gargoyles on Dragonstone not breaking or eroding but I can't find anything.  Do you have a link?

The presence of a Sept on Dragonstone may be explained by the former inhabitants of the island.  If there was a small keep or village on the island and those people were allowed to stay and serve the Valyrians they would likely have been followers of the The Faith of the Seven. 

 

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12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The sept: The sept of Dragonstone, dedicated to the Faith of the Seven, contains statues representing the seven aspects of the Seven gods, carved from the masts of the ships that had carried the first Targaryens from Valyria, but have frequently been repainted since then.[5] The statue of the Crone has pearl eyes, the Father a gilded beard, and the Stranger looks more animal than human. [5]

 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Those are just the statues. Notice how they didn't make ones like the Gargoyles? They lack the ability. Thus they just used the mast heads of their ships. Which, you have to think were already some carved thing, as were most old ships. So could these statues/mast already have been the seven?? Which would explain why it never said they recarved them, or carved them. Just that they've been repainted.

 

The Targaryens  carved statues of the seven aspects of the Seven gods from the wooden masts of the ships that delivered them across the sea.  The fact that they didn't carve them from stone doesn't equate to them forgetting how to shape stone.  Maybe wood is the traditional material to use for statues in small Septs.  And I think that you are confusing figureheads with mastheads but neither the term masthead or figurehead was used in the paragraph about the sept on Dragonstone.  Figureheads are ornately carved, yes, but masts on tall ships are simply massive and tall straight tree trunks mounted on a ship.  And it says right in the quote provided by Lollygag that the wooden statues were carved from the masts.  It doesn't say that they just repainted them, it says that they carved them from the masts. 

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14 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Dragonstone was already a Valyrian outpost before the Targaryens made it their home.  Aenar Targaryen bought the island from its previous owners after his daughter foretold the coming doom.  The castle was already there but that's not saying the Targaryens didn't build additions. 

The ironborn could not take the island because it was a Valyrian outpost.  Nobody wanted to mess with the Dragonlords. 

This is basically the answer the island wasnt abanded at all the Valaryans were holding it for a LONG time, and who in Westeros would dare attack the Valaryans at the height of there Power over Planteos?. 

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10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The Valyrians used sorcery to build the castle, which includes the gargoyles. The gargoyle outside the "weathered little inn" isn't going to be forged from magic Valyrian stone (and neither is the inn), and the gargoyle is sitting on the waterfront, exposed to the sea and salt and rain and wind, so of course it's going to erode. No mystery, no link to Winterfell.

But I was also very curious about Dragonstone, up until TWOIAF was published and answered most of my questions.

And the castle is 600 years old, not 400 - "some two hundred years before the Doom".

Oops. Two errors. My bad

I still think it's interesting the Valyrians would carve them up till Aegon's induction. I dont buy that they landed and automatically carved them out of respect for the fact they planned to stay or invade. Specially if you believe the TWOIAF that the Island was uninhabited up till 600 years ago when the Valyrions took it and supposedly made Dragonstone castle. Why not make them of the same material as the gargoyles? and why show respect for any faith when they never did before? They showed indifference except for their own. Seemingly dropped soon as they arrived for a faith they had destroyed in Essos? And why before Aegon? Planning to invade but never did till Aegon? Planned to stay so you wanted to show respect? But, if it was uninhabited, then who would know or care that you were there? Maybe the Durrandons and such but i dont see why the Faith should care or be involved. 

What answers did you feel were satisfactory?

And yes i erred. 

600yrs ago- Dragonstone taken and built by Valyrians

5-400yrs ago- Valyrian Blades make their way into Westeros. Showing intent, yet again, why not invade till Aegon? Also still very weird, thatd be like a Radical Muslims praying to Jesus before making an attack. That makes no sense that Aegon prayed to the seven or that they have a sept.

400yrs ago- Targaryen's take the castle in their exile. Still unknown why they were exiled.

                  -The Doom of Valyria

300yrs ago- Aegon's Conquest.

 

And considering that the Targaryen's never showed the ability to build such as the other Valyrians did, it's unlikely that they are the ones who built the sept.

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6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Though Irrelevant, would this possibly mean this is roughly the date Velaryons and Celtigars settled on the Narrow Sea? If so this should also explain why most Valyrian swords are in the range of 400-500 years old; Valyrians only arrived around 600 years ago.

Yes that's why, the Valyrian's were already known to have been on Dragonstone at the time. I messed up a lil on the date cause i was typing late but the point is that there was the small known amount of time that they were there. Im wondering about prior to that 

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3 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I agree that it is curious that there wasn't a known settlement on Dragonstone before the Valyrians built their black stone citadel and embellished it with dragons and gargoyles.  Maybe any existing settlers were easily removed or maybe even allowed to stay on the island under the rule of the Valyrians? 

I've looked around to confirm your statement about the gargoyles on Dragonstone not breaking or eroding but I can't find anything.  Do you have a link?

The presence of a Sept on Dragonstone may be explained by the former inhabitants of the island.  If there was a small keep or village on the island and those people were allowed to stay and serve the Valyrians they would likely have been followers of the The Faith of the Seven. 

 

I think there had to be some one on the Island. The invading Andals alone should have taken it years ago.

It's not out right stated so much. It's in Viserys claims that the storm of Dany's birth ripped Gargoyles from the parapets, yet all descriptions of Dragonstone fail to mention this. Cressen talks to them as they are his old friends and knows all their faces. Showing they are not worn. Seemingly all intact. Which have led some to question the storm too.

 

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2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

 

 

 

The Targaryens  carved statues of the seven aspects of the Seven gods from the wooden masts of the ships that delivered them across the sea.  The fact that they didn't carve them from stone doesn't equate to them forgetting how to shape stone.  Maybe wood is the traditional material to use for statues in small Septs.  And I think that you are confusing figureheads with mastheads but neither the term masthead or figurehead was used in the paragraph about the sept on Dragonstone.  Figureheads are ornately carved, yes, but masts on tall ships are simply massive and tall straight tree trunks mounted on a ship.  And it says right in the quote provided by Lollygag that the wooden statues were carved from the masts.  It doesn't say that they just repainted them, it says that they carved them from the masts. 

Yea i erred there on the carved part, but as mentioned above, doesn't negate the mystery. 

And it's possible wood was the go to, but that sounds so shoddy for them. 

Also, why use the seven as a metaphor for what brought you to Westeros? again, doesn't make sense. The Seven were the ships that brought them is what that looks like. 

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2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

This is basically the answer the island wasnt abanded at all the Valaryans were holding it for a LONG time, and who in Westeros would dare attack the Valaryans at the height of there Power over Planteos?. 

If you mean "long time" as far as beyond what we're told, then i can believe that. 

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6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Targaryen's take the castle in their exile. Still unknown why they were exiled.

 

The Targaryens weren’t exiled - they left prior to the Doom because of Daenys the Dreamer’s visions, and took up residence on the Valyrian outpost of Dragonstone. “Exile” implies they were banished or had to flee to escape justice/persecution. I don’t recall reading anything about the Targs not being in good standing with the Freehold.

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34 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

 

The Targaryens weren’t exiled - they left prior to the Doom because of Daenys the Dreamer’s visions, and took up residence on the Valyrian outpost of Dragonstone. “Exile” implies they were banished or had to flee to escape justice/persecution. I don’t recall reading anything about the Targs not being in good standing with the Freehold.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

All three siblings had shown themselves to be dragonlords before they wed. Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exile from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon's day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread. The remaining two dragons—Vhagar and Meraxes—were younger, hatched on Dragonstone itself.

 

 

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate.

 

a·poth·e·o·sis
əˌpäTHēˈōsəs/
noun
 
  1. the highest point in the development of something; culmination or climax.
    "his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career"
    • the elevation of someone to divine status; deification.
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I saw mentioned in another thread that there is an idea floating around that the Valyrians didn't build Dragonstone, and that they just found it. Much like the Iron born found the Sea Stone chair. I think this is a very intriguing idea and has merit given Dragonstone is referred to as ancient. Which 600 years isn't ancient. The only castles newer i think mentioned were Harrenhal, The Twins, K.L. and another one. Though if true, brings even more question about the Sept. 

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