Dragonstone mysteries

[Impbread]

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i erred there on the carved part, but as mentioned above, doesn't negate the mystery. 

And it's possible wood was the go to, but that sounds so shoddy for them. 

Also, why use the seven as a metaphor for what brought you to Westeros? again, doesn't make sense. The Seven were the ships that brought them is what that looks like. 

The aegon fort was wood.....

[White Ravens]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i erred there on the carved part, but as mentioned above, doesn't negate the mystery. 

And it's possible wood was the go to, but that sounds so shoddy for them. 

Also, why use the seven as a metaphor for what brought you to Westeros? again, doesn't make sense. The Seven were the ships that brought them is what that looks like. 

Maybe it wasn't a metaphor for how they got to Westeros but rather a symbol for their commitment to their new home.  Removing the masts from the ships and carving them says "We're here and we're staying" and carving them into the Seven says "We are adopting your ways".  But then again their isn't much mention of the Targaryens interacting with the kingdoms of Westeros once Aenar Targaryen began his (self imposed?) exile on Dragonstone. 

[Bobity.]

As for the Sept, I don't recall any descriptions of the Dragonstone sept beyond the wooden statues.  My thoughts are that the Targs repurposed an existing space after adopting the faith.  After you remove and burn the statues and prohibit praying, the space becomes the former sept.  If the sept was described with seven walls with seven windows, or some other faith inspired architecture, then I think you would be onto something. 

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Still unknown why they were exiled.

While I am not going to dispute the inclusion of the word exile from a maesters book title describing the Targs, a more fulsome explanation does point to prophetic dreams of the Doom as the reason they left.

Quote

Aenar Targaryen sold his holdings in the Freehold and the Lands of the Long Summer and moved with all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children to Dragonstone...the Targaryens were far from the most powerful of the dragonlords, and their rivals saw their flight to Dragonstone as an act of surrender, as cowardice. But Lord Aenar's maiden daughter Daenys, known forever afterward as Daenys the Dreamer had foreseen the destruction of Valyria by fire - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

The fact that their rivals viewed their departure as cowardice implies free choice, not imposed exile.

My question is, why would moving to (or exiled) Dragonstone be viewed as cowardly (or punishment) by their noble rivals? Considering the Valyrians must of spent considerable effort in creating a magnificent castle with towers shaped as dragons and 1,000 unique twelve foot statues as crenulations less than 200 years prior....they did not hold the place in high regard.

[maudisdottir]

3 hours ago, White Ravens said:

once Aenar Targaryen began his (self imposed?) exile on Dragonstone.

"Self-imposed exile" is a more accurate description IMO. They left voluntarily, and while technically they lived in exile (and had no choice but to after the Doom, because they couldn't return) they weren't "exiled" from Valyria because of anything they did, other than Daenys' foretelling of the coming disaster.

But Aenar the Exile is catchier than Aenar the Self-Imposed Exile or Aenar the Expatriate.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Impbread said:

The aegon fort was wood.....

This is true. Though not meant as a permanent abode, Lorath sounded like a permanent one. Though that is a good point.

Though i still have an issue with the Andals not leaving behind ruins as the Rhoynar and Sarnori did.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Maybe it wasn't a metaphor for how they got to Westeros but rather a symbol for their commitment to their new home.  Removing the masts from the ships and carving them says "We're here and we're staying" and carving them into the Seven says "We are adopting your ways".  But then again their isn't much mention of the Targaryens interacting with the kingdoms of Westeros once Aenar Targaryen began his (self imposed?) exile on Dragonstone. 

Possibly. Though as this is already what the Maesters want us to believe. Id like to try to come up with some plausible other options.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Bobity. said:

As for the Sept, I don't recall any descriptions of the Dragonstone sept beyond the wooden statues.  My thoughts are that the Targs repurposed an existing space after adopting the faith.  After you remove and burn the statues and prohibit praying, the space becomes the former sept.  If the sept was described with seven walls with seven windows, or some other faith inspired architecture, then I think you would be onto something. 

While I am not going to dispute the inclusion of the word exile from a maesters book title describing the Targs, a more fulsome explanation does point to prophetic dreams of the Doom as the reason they left.

The fact that their rivals viewed their departure as cowardice implies free choice, not imposed exile.

My question is, why would moving to (or exiled) Dragonstone be viewed as cowardly (or punishment) by their noble rivals? Considering the Valyrians must of spent considerable effort in creating a magnificent castle with towers shaped as dragons and 1,000 unique twelve foot statues as crenulations less than 200 years prior....they did not hold the place in high regard.

Aenar is listed as Aenar the Exile. Exile is pretty descriptive. Plus their history book, exile to apotheosis. 

Other than the quotes ive listed already. I remember an article where Elio him self even suspected as much that they left do to political heat and exile rather than a willing flight. 

Watch the 1.50 mark and it hints at the same thing. 

Why would it be bad to leave Valyria? Hmm. I would suspect it had something to do with the fact that all the dragon riding families lived in Valyria. Not Volantis or anywhere's else. There was some reason they all lived there.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

"Self-imposed exile" is a more accurate description IMO. They left voluntarily, and while technically they lived in exile (and had no choice but to after the Doom, because they couldn't return) they weren't "exiled" from Valyria because of anything they did, other than Daenys' foretelling of the coming disaster.

But Aenar the Exile is catchier than Aenar the Self-Imposed Exile or Aenar the Expatriate.

Sure.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

sic

It's very possible, what we're told at face value is true. Though it would make sense for the Targaryen's to hide this fact by claims of prophecy. Which i must say, is the only prophecy many have pointed out, that actually seems prophetic. Since we've yet seen proof of people seeing the future through the trees, its very possible that you can't, and that the story of the prophecy is a lie. Considering they were one of the lesser houses, i can totally see them being driven out. For what reasons? Im not sure. Though land was precious and families grow. And why call Aenar anything if he wasn't exiled? It's either Aenar the Exile or Aenar Targaryen. Or Aenar the Explorer, or Aenar the Cunning. I can come up with more but no reason really for a title beyond him being an exile imo. 

I dont trust the Maesters, and on this point, i wouldn't trust the Targaryen's either. 

Though i do find it interesting some one claims they were though of as cowards for leaving. Like, who would know this to be spreading this tale? Who had conversations with the other houses? 

Edit- also, dreams are sent by either the trees or glass candles, so who would have even sent this dream? and why save the Targaryen's?

[Mainstroke]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It's very possible, what we're told at face value is true. Though it would make sense for the Targaryen's to hide this fact by claims of prophecy. Which i must say, is the only prophecy many have pointed out, that actually seems prophetic. Since we've yet seen proof of people seeing the future through the trees, its very possible that you can't, and that the story of the prophecy is a lie. Considering they were one of the lesser houses, i can totally see them being driven out. For what reasons? Im not sure. Though land was precious and families grow. And why call Aenar anything if he wasn't exiled? It's either Aenar the Exile or Aenar Targaryen. Or Aenar the Explorer, or Aenar the Cunning. I can come up with more but no reason really for a title beyond him being an exile imo. 

I dont trust the Maesters, and on this point, i wouldn't trust the Targaryen's either. 

Though i do find it interesting some one claims they were though of as cowards for leaving. Like, who would know this to be spreading this tale? Who had conversations with the other houses? 

Edit- also, dreams are sent by either the trees or glass candles, so who would have even sent this dream? and why save the Targaryen's?

Whether or not the exile is self imposed or not you are still an exile in name, hence Aenar the Exile. I think they left due to the prophetic dream. Otherwise they would have left out details as a lesser dragonlord house or cowards for leaving. Since they are the only dragonlord house left, they could've just said they were the greatest of them all and the doom happened because they left and the remaining houses couldn't run a civilization without them. 

And regarding the only prophecy that has come true, note the timespan between the prophecy and its fulfillment. They lived on dragonstone for twelve years before the doom happened, which isn't a super long time, but still longer than some that have been uttered in asoiaf. And it is implied that prophecies do come true, (Cersei's marriage and number of children, Dany's kidless future unless some conditions are met, by MMD). 

 

The obvious answer for saving the Targaryens would be Dany's involvement in the Long night 2.0, but there may be other stuff as well, I do not know. I hope there is something more though. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Well something i find interesting about Dragonstone and Valyria taking it 600 years ago, is this coinciding with the Fires of Hardhome. The destruction of the only place like to become a town or city North of the Wall one day. Then boom, Valyrians on Dragonstone. 

I can't help but think these two events are tied. Like Valyria destroyed Hardhome lest it broke some pact or arrangement. One perhaps they suspected was now broken. As, with in the next hundred years, Valyrian steel blades begin to enter into Westeros. 

I like most have suspected this to do with buying off noble houses, but could this actually be a precautionary act taken by Valyria in response to Hardhome? 

To which, with in 200 years of Hardhome, Valyria is destroyed.

[hiemal]

On 11/20/2017 at 0:11 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

And what is up with that weird Sept of Dragonstone???

The Valyrians seemed to think of gods as powers with which to ally themselves in pursuit of their own interests so I think this was the Targaryan's attempt to strike a bargain with the Seven. Oldtown opened her gates and the Faith crowned him so maybe they actually did, but it seems just as likely that was just prudence when faced with dragonfire.

Or perhaps, guided by prophecy, the Targs shaped these as magical trojan horses- knowing they would be burned in their House's darkest hour and unleash some hidden power. There is something going on, though. We certainly have no reason to believe that they had any real conversion to the faith of the Seven. The scene of their burning and the revelation of the mock-Lightbringer are very evocative but even as they happen we have the actual Azor Ahai Reborn pulling her Lightbringer from a different pyre on a different continent (or close to it, anyways- chronology being what it is).

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

The Valyrians seemed to think of gods as powers with which to ally themselves in pursuit of their own interests so I think this was the Targaryan's attempt to strike a bargain with the Seven. Oldtown opened her gates and the Faith crowned him so maybe they actually did, but it seems just as likely that was just prudence when faced with dragonfire.

Or perhaps, guided by prophecy, the Targs shaped these as magical trojan horses- knowing they would be burned in their House's darkest hour and unleash some hidden power. There is something going on, though. We certainly have no reason to believe that they had any real conversion to the faith of the Seven. The scene of their burning and the revelation of the mock-Lightbringer are very evocative but even as they happen we have the actual Azor Ahai Reborn pulling her Lightbringer from a different pyre on a different continent (or close to it, anyways- chronology being what it is).

Ive got some other tidbits im looking into but im considering 

Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax + Black goat of Qohor, Boashi of Lorath, and the Bearded Priest of Norvos, may just be the 7 Valyrian gods i was looking for. 

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I like most have suspected this to do with buying off noble houses, but could this actually be a precautionary act taken by Valyria in response to Hardhome? 

I agree about the mystery of Hardhome. That's one of the things I really want there to be an answer to in the final books. And I agree there could be a connection with Valyria - like, was Hardhome a rehearsal for the Doom?

But I don't find the Faceless Men conspiracy theories all that compelling, so I'll just wait for George to tell me what the hell was going on there.

[hiemal]

41 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ive got some other tidbits im looking into but im considering 

Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax + Black goat of Qohor, Boashi of Lorath, and the Bearded Priest of Norvos, may just be the 7 Valyrian gods i was looking for. 

Perhaps  since they had Balerion and company in the flesh, they represented in wood the gods dragonized as Tessarion, Morghul, Syrax, Caraxes, Tyraxes, Vermax, and Meleys? Or including Vermithor, Shrykos, and Arrax but eliminating others? That would be 13. So- what name are we missing to make it the 14 flames of Valyria? (spitball- Rhaellor or Rhaellion or something? For R'hlorr) Two valyrian gods to one idol of the Seven? Just spitballing here.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Perhaps  since they had Balerion and company in the flesh, they represented in wood the gods dragonized as Tessarion, Morghul, Syrax, Caraxes, Tyraxes, Vermax, and Meleys? Or including Vermithor, Shrykos, and Arrax but eliminating others? That would be 13. So- what name are we missing to make it the 14 flames of Valyria? (spitball- Rhaellor or Rhaellion or something? For R'hlorr) Two valyrian gods to one idol of the Seven? Just spitballing here.

Damn, on to some thing here. Think Valyria as the mother religion, and the Faith and the Church of Starry wisdom as the two split/schisms for the 7 and 7 to 14. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I agree about the mystery of Hardhome. That's one of the things I really want there to be an answer to in the final books. And I agree there could be a connection with Valyria - like, was Hardhome a rehearsal for the Doom?

But I don't find the Faceless Men conspiracy theories all that compelling, so I'll just wait for George to tell me what the hell was going on there.

Haha yea im not brave enough to do a faceless men theory yet with out better evidence

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

Perhaps  since they had Balerion and company in the flesh, they represented in wood the gods dragonized as Tessarion, Morghul, Syrax, Caraxes, Tyraxes, Vermax, and Meleys? Or including Vermithor, Shrykos, and Arrax but eliminating others? That would be 13. So- what name are we missing to make it the 14 flames of Valyria? (spitball- Rhaellor or Rhaellion or something? For R'hlorr) Two valyrian gods to one idol of the Seven? Just spitballing here.

Well pulling generic named dragons like Sheepstealer and Daenery's 3 leaves us 13. Leaving Nagga and Urrax. Nagga is listed as a Sea Dragon, so not the same. So adding Urrax, gives us 14 dragons.

1.Arrax

2.Balerion

3.Caraxes

4.Meleys

5.Meraxes

6.Morghul

7.Shrykos

8.Syrax

9.Terrax

10.Tessarion

11.Tyraxes

12.Vermax

13.Vhagar

14.Urrax.

[hiemal]

32 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well pulling generic named dragons like Sheepstealer and Daenery's 3 leaves us 13. Leaving Nagga and Urrax. Nagga is listed as a Sea Dragon, so not the same. So adding Urrax, gives us 14 dragons.

1.Arrax

2.Balerion

3.Caraxes

4.Meleys

5.Meraxes

6.Morghul

7.Shrykos

8.Syrax

9.Terrax

10.Tessarion

11.Tyraxes

12.Vermax

13.Vhagar

14.Urrax.

Nice. Morghul may be among the generically-named. It does sound a bit like someone with some High Valyrian wanted a scary death-evocative name. Or maybe Death was a god in Valyria? Certainly he was in the mines, but above I'm not so sure. Shrykos too? It stands out a bit. Anyways- were the Targs looking East or West when they carved the Sept? To the past or to the future (and how far into the future)?

When in doubt I put my money on black, on blood- so, I think the idols probably represented in some sense the 14 Flames, and turning away from a dead land and dead gods and in another sense was setting the stage for their future release- at a usurper's command. What will come of it, I'm not sure- but as previously mentioned I think the actuality this event apes was AAR releasing beasts from stone, pulling Lightbringer from the fire so I think that something is going on here- something was released from these wooden images. I just don't know what or what it means. Yet,

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Nice. Morghul may be among the generically-named. It does sound a bit like someone with some High Valyrian wanted a scary death-evocative name. Or maybe Death was a god in Valyria? Certainly he was in the mines, but above I'm not so sure. Shrykos too? It stands out a bit. Anyways- were the Targs looking East or West when they carved the Sept? To the past or to the future (and how far into the future)?

When in doubt I put my money on black, on blood- so, I think the idols probably represented in some sense the 14 Flames, and turning away from a dead land and dead gods and in another sense was setting the stage for their future release- at a usurper's command. What will come of it, I'm not sure- but as previously mentioned I think the actuality this event apes was AAR releasing beasts from stone, pulling Lightbringer from the fire so I think that something is going on here- something was released from these wooden images. I just don't know what or what it means. Yet,

Well compared to names like Sheepstealer, Moon Dancer, the Cannibal, Grey Ghost, Morning, Quicksilver, Sea Smoke, Silverwing, Storm Cloud and Sunfyre. The others i listed sound unique and non generic compared to these i just listed. 

And i have a theory im building up, but i already know many wont except it cause it goes against the Maesters haha but we'll see. There are some key event's that happened at the same time that i havn't listed yet that strongly indicate some things, but im working out some of the details. 

Things like the Andals claims that the first men built square structures and that they built the round ones, and yet, not a single ruined city in Andalos. Not a one. And the few cities up there (Braavos, Norvos, Pentos) all have square buildings. A couple vague claims by the Maesters regarding the Rhoynar and the Andals, and the Andals origins actually in the Silver Sea before going to the Axe are some keys im working out. As the Rhoynar and Sarnori built marble palaces with water gardens and at least the Rhoynar used Water magic. Both had Black eyes and Black Hair. Something said to be in House Hoare due to their Andal taint. Suggesting among some other clues that the Andals had Black hair and eyes, and built square, not round structures, despite the claims of Septons. 

Theres a bunch of other pieces i havn't mentioned yet, but alot that im putting together. Just still dont have my finger on it all yet either. Close though.