Brown Dragon and no Bittersteel

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In addition to Maegor, I seem to recall another non-heir apparent or king infamously bearing Blackfyre. And in that case, like Visenya, the bearer's supporters held up his wielding of Blackfyre, inter alia, as justification for his right to rule. Perhaps that's why the less martial kings might not have let a more martial kin wield the sword. 

A king handing 'the sword of kings' to his son was very unusual. That's why people made such a fuzz about Daemon getting it.

TSotD helps a little bit with the 'the sword is the kingdom' narrative but aside from Maegor, Jaehaerys I, and the Young Dragon (who wielded it only very briefly) we actually have no martial Targaryens who could have done more with the sword than use it in a ceremonial capacity. People like Viserys I, Aegon II, Aegon III, Baelor the Blessed, Viserys II, and even Aegon IV most likely never killed a man with their own hands, nor would they have led their men from the front in battle.

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes it would, but the lack of any mention of the sword after the Secon Blackfyre Rebellion suggests to me that the Targaryens did not retain the blade or that the George was keeping his options open. 

See above. Absence of evidence doesn't mean anything in George's narrative framework. And we do know that he was very reluctant in sharing stuff he could have put in the later sections of the Targaryen history.

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Rhaenyra could do it, why not another? Blackfyre supporters were able to spring Bittersteel from taking the black. Why couldn't they smuggle a sword? 

Rhaenyra had loyalists in the Kingsguard. Do we have reason to assume that those Blackfyre sympathizers who helped arrange Bittersteel's rescue - which was basically a (couple of) ship(s) capturing another ship - had to be in the inner circle of court? No, we don't.

It is enough for some Blackfyre sympathizers witnessing Aegor's trial and sentence to arrange his rescue.

If they had had access to King Aerys' armory - or apartments - (wherever the sword would have been kept after it was taken from Haegon) then it is rather odd that Aerys I, Bloodraven, Maekar, etc. were not murdered, while those men were at it.

Still, there is a chance that it was retaken by some Blackfyres in the field - we don't know how and why and where Haegon was captured.

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Almost as convenient as stumbling upon a nest of petrified dragon’s eggs in the Dothraki Sea. 

Well, there is a reason why that stupid idea never made it into any actual novel, right?

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Fortunately for the rest of us you are not. 

So you think that would actually be a good idea? One you would like?

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yeah, that's why I described the brief conflict (go ahead and look up the word if you need to, I will wait) as a little civil war between Maelys and his cousin Daemon. I assume they each had their supporters. Whether such supporters might have engaged in hostile acts against each other would be purely speculative, but not ruled out either. 

Sounds way too complex for me. This is a sellsword company. If there is a duel the men accept whoever wins it. That's why that kind of thing is done. There might be people favoring this or that guy, but this isn't a democracy or even a hereditary monarchy. If you can't fight, you are out, never mind that you would technically be ahead of the other guy in some silly line of succession.

In that sense, the overwhelming majority of the Golden Company may have favored Maelys, anyway. He was strong. We don't know what kind of man this Daemon fellow was. Perhaps an utter moron, who knows.

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes. And perhaps some supporter of Daemon's made off with it. It's all just guessing. It might have been lost, it might have been hung on a wall at the Red Keep, it might have been lost at Summerhall--who the heck knows? You? 

No, I just like the idea that the Blackfyres may have lost it than the ridiculous setting that some lucky coincidence always helped them save 'the sword' but not their own heads.

I mean, it was also George's choice to have all but the Second Blackfyre Rebellion end with the death of the pretender. There could have been some tactical retreats, two rebellions staged by the same pretender, or pretenders being removed from the equation by assassination (or some kind of other death, during a battle in the Disputed Lands, say) in Essos.

If you die in battle your people usually don't get your stuff.

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Did all that thinking make your head hurt? Have you been satisfied with everything the George has written so far, especially as to the backstory? You seemed pretty dissatisfied with The Sons of the Dragon. Perhaps you won't be so satisfied with the Blackfyre backstory. Who knows? 

Sure, and I'll tell the world if George sucks at that.

But, you know, TSotD isn't bad because of the content, it is bad and faulty because it actually contains genuine mistakes, forgets to depict actual details relevant to the plot, and doesn't exactly depict the motivations of certain characters realistically.

That is just sloppy writing and virtually non-existing editing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Absence of evidence doesn't mean anything 

So true. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra had loyalists in the Kingsguard. Do we have reason to assume that those Blackfyre sympathizers who helped arrange Bittersteel's rescue - which was basically a (couple of) ship(s) capturing another ship - had to be in the inner circle of court? No, we don't.

I'd say we do, although perhaps not the inner circle, but maybe good enough to smuggle a sword...

Quote

But that was not to be. Though Bittersteel was tried and found guilty of high treason, King Aerysspared his life, instead commanding that he be sent to the Wall to live out his days as a man of the Night’s Watch. That proved a foolish mercy, for the Blackfyres still had many friends at court, some of them only too willing to play the informer. The ship carrying Bittersteel and a dozen other captives was taken in the narrow sea on the way to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and Aegor Rivers was freed and returned to the Golden Company.

TWOIAF

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there is a reason why that stupid idea never made it into any actual novel, right?

How about Catelyn and Tyrion happening to cross paths at the Inn at the Crossroads... Wasn't that convenient? Plot devices are necessary to move a plot, by definition. 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think that would actually be a good idea? One you would like?

"It is not a question of wanting." 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sounds way too complex for me. This is a sellsword company. If there is a duel the men accept whoever wins it. That's why that kind of thing is done. There might be people favoring this or that guy, but this isn't a democracy or even a hereditary monarchy. If you can't fight, you are out, never mind that you would technically be ahead of the other guy in some silly line of succession.

In that sense, the overwhelming majority of the Golden Company may have favored Maelys, anyway. He was strong. We don't know what kind of man this Daemon fellow was. Perhaps an utter moron, who knows.

Something tells me that you are sigularly unqualified to explain the internal dynamics of an organized force of fighting men based on personal experience. Just a hunch. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So true. 

I'd say we do, although perhaps not the inner circle, but maybe good enough to smuggle a sword...

TWOIAF

Jalabhar Xho lives 'at court', too. So do Moon Boy, the Slynt boys, and Philip Foote (presumably). All people needed to do to play the informer is find out when exactly Bittersteel was put on a ship. If King Aerys actually announced that when he delivered the sentence then we don't need a deep infiltration of the Targaryen court.

Trials are usually public affairs in this world, are they not?

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How about Catelyn and Tyrion happening to cross paths at the Inn at the Crossroads... Wasn't that convenient? Plot devices are necessary to move a plot, by definition. 

Well, it isn't that convenient considering that the Kingsroad is the road they both traveled on, and it is not unlikely that there are certain inns the nobility prefers. I mean, if there are inns along the road and if a certain group of them are preferred by the nobility/rich people - and the Inn at the Crossroads really is one such - then it is not a surprise that they meet in one such. They certainly could - and inevitably - would have met on the road itself if they were traveling said road at the same time.

But then, you are missing the point. George obviously was smart enough to better his original Dany plot - not only with the changed story about the dragon eggs but also the changes to the Drogo-Viserys-Dany dynamics.

TSotD - and TRP and TPatQ - as published are clearly first drafts lacking the edits and changes George, Ran/Linda, Anne, etc. came during the writing process of TWoIaF.

One cannot really say that George took a lot of effort to hand a well-written and edited product to Gardner Dozois there.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"It is not a question of wanting." 

Sure. Speculation of that kind is part wanting, part expectation. You are speculating.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Something tells me that you are sigularly unqualified to explain the internal dynamics of an organized force of fighting men based on personal experience. Just a hunch. 

I get all my expertise from Daario.