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Angel Eyes

[Spoilers S07] “Robert’s Rebellion was based on a lie.”

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I continue to just not really understand this criticism.  I mean, there's a ton of things to criticize about the show and this just seems relatively minor.  From a simplistic perspective, both in the books and the show, Robert's Rebellion is portrayed as beginning with Rheagar's "rape" or "abduction" or whatever you want to call it of Lyanna.  And I mean, that's really just not a simplistic perspective, but a fact- you can definitely say that is a proximate cause of Robert's Rebellion, just as you can say the assassination of the Austrian Archduke is a proximate cause of World War I.  There are a ton of other factors and things that had to happen afterwards, but the starting point of Robert's Rebellion that kicks off all the consequences is unquestionably Lyanna's disappearance.  That's what leads directly into Brandon's hothead response and Aerys summoning Rickard and executing them and on and on and on.  

Now we can go on and on and on about the exact causes of Robert's Rebellion, but I think it's fair to say that hypothetically-speaking, had Brandon known that Lyanna loved Rheagar and went with him voluntarily to be married, he would not have shown up at King's landing demanding Rheagar come out and fight him.

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10 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I continue to just not really understand this criticism.  I mean, there's a ton of things to criticize about the show and this just seems relatively minor.  From a simplistic perspective, both in the books and the show, Robert's Rebellion is portrayed as beginning with Rheagar's "rape" or "abduction" or whatever you want to call it of Lyanna.  And I mean, that's really just not a simplistic perspective, but a fact- you can definitely say that is a proximate cause of Robert's Rebellion, just as you can say the assassination of the Austrian Archduke is a proximate cause of World War I.  There are a ton of other factors and things that had to happen afterwards, but the starting point of Robert's Rebellion that kicks off all the consequences is unquestionably Lyanna's disappearance.  That's what leads directly into Brandon's hothead response and Aerys summoning Rickard and executing them and on and on and on.  

Now we can go on and on and on about the exact causes of Robert's Rebellion, but I think it's fair to say that hypothetically-speaking, had Brandon known that Lyanna loved Rheagar and went with him voluntarily to be married, he would not have shown up at King's landing demanding Rheagar come out and fight him.

That seems pretty true and a good comparison to WWI. 

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12 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

From a simplistic perspective, both in the books and the show, Robert's Rebellion is portrayed as beginning with Rheagar's "rape" or "abduction" or whatever you want to call it of Lyanna

Actually, no, the first depiction of Rhaegar and Lyanna was that he eloped with her. The first perspective where Rhaegar's mentioned by name was Daenerys's first chapter.

It's the second perspective we see which paints Rhaegar as a rapist (Bobby B's via a Ned chapter).

What I'm saying is, the revelation that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other isn't exactly meant to be a big twist, at least in the books, and it certainly wouldn't have negated the war entirely (Bobby B would still be pissed that Rhaegar fucking nicked his betrothed, due to, as Ned notes, him being more in love with the idea of Lyanna rather than actually loving her and respecting her will, meaning tensions would be high regardless).

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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4 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

It's the second perspective we see which paints Rhaegar as a rapist (Bobby B's via a Ned chapter).

What I'm saying is, the revelation that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other isn't exactly meant to be a big twist, at least in the books, and it certainly wouldn't have negated the war entirely (Bobby B would still be pissed that Rhaegar fucking nicked his betrothed, due to, as Ned notes, him being more in love with the idea of Lyanna rather than actually loving her and respecting her will, meaning tensions 

Haven’t read AGOT since 13 so cannot speak to it. 

In the show in season 1 they do seem to make it much more about about Rhaegar kidnapping her since we mostly hear about it from Robert and I don’t think we get Dany's perspective on Rhaegar until season 3.  

This is what Bran said about it in 1x10

Bran Stark: That's my grandfather, Lord Rickard. He was burned alive by the Mad King, Aerys. That's Lyanna, my father's sister. King Robert was supposed to marry her, but Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped her. Robert started a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar, but she died anyway. That's where l saw Father.

So based on this interpretation of Bran in season 1, which is also backed up with what Robert said, what Bran says in season 7 makes sense. 

Edited by jcmontea

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On 11/23/2017 at 3:33 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Actually, no, the first depiction of Rhaegar and Lyanna was that he eloped with her. The first perspective where Rhaegar's mentioned by name was Daenerys's first chapter.

It's the second perspective we see which paints Rhaegar as a rapist (Bobby B's via a Ned chapter).

What I'm saying is, the revelation that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other isn't exactly meant to be a big twist, at least in the books, and it certainly wouldn't have negated the war entirely (Bobby B would still be pissed that Rhaegar fucking nicked his betrothed, due to, as Ned notes, him being more in love with the idea of Lyanna rather than actually loving her and respecting her will, meaning tensions would be high regardless).

As @jcmontea said above, I do believe the show made the war more about Lyanna and Rhaegar's "disappearance" or whatever you want to call it.  Secondly, the Dany/Targ perspective is not relevant at all to how the war starts- that "second" perspective is the one that matters as it's Brandon Stark's response that sets everything into motion.  From that perspective, yes, it actually is a big twist that R + L loved each other and she wasn't raped/kidnapped.

In any case, it's not really relevant to my main point that factually speaking, R + L's disappearance is the proximate cause of Robert's Rebellion, and that the 2nd domino to fall leading up to Robert's Rebellion is unquestionably Brandon's appearance at King's Landing demanding combat with Rheagar.  I think it's pretty safe to say that had Brandon, and everyone else been aware, that Lyanna and Rheagar loved each other and ran off voluntarily together, Brandon may have not had the same response he did end up having.

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4 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

As @jcmontea said above, I do believe the show made the war more about Lyanna and Rhaegar's "disappearance" or whatever you want to call it.  Secondly, the Dany/Targ perspective is not relevant at all to how the war starts- that "second" perspective is the one that matters as it's Brandon Stark's response that sets everything into motion.  From that perspective, yes, it actually is a big twist that R + L loved each other and she wasn't raped/kidnapped.

In any case, it's not really relevant to my main point that factually speaking, R + L's disappearance is the proximate cause of Robert's Rebellion, and that the 2nd domino to fall leading up to Robert's Rebellion is unquestionably Brandon's appearance at King's Landing demanding combat with Rheagar.  I think it's pretty safe to say that had Brandon, and everyone else been aware, that Lyanna and Rheagar loved each other and ran off voluntarily together, Brandon may have not had the same response he did end up having.

And the mockery of trial by combat?

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36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And the mockery of trial by combat?

what about it? that is the third domino to fall. the first domino was this lie that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Without that Brandon does not show up to KL. So it is correct to say that the proximate cause is that lie just like the murder of Archduke Ferdinand was the proximate cause of the first world war. 

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I don't know if that's true. Brandon could have still been pissed even if he knew she willingly went with Rhaegar. 

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58 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

I don't know if that's true. Brandon could have still been pissed even if he knew she willingly went with Rhaegar. 

Anything could happen. But i just doubt Brandon was that much of an idiot/ dumbass where he would have gone to the Red Keep and called on Rhaegar to “come out and die” knowing his sister loved the man and eloped with him knowingly. 

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4 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Anything could happen. But i just doubt Brandon was that much of an idiot/ dumbass where he would have gone to the Red Keep and called on Rhaegar to “come out and die” knowing his sister loved the man and eloped with him knowingly. 

Indeed. Brandon was pretty hot-blooded so I definitely think he would have kicked off even if he did know she went willingly. Outside the Red Keep though? No, he would probably have just marched in and asked where Rhaegar was, heard he wasn't there, and then gone off on a hunt for them.

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