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AlaskanSandman

The Doom and Garin's Curse?

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So what are the ideas of what caused the Doom? We know of 3 claims in the book.

1. The Curse of Garin-Grey Scale

2. The Gold of the West 

3 The Faceless men.

Now given that the Valyrians took Dragonstone 600 years ago, then within 200 years they were destroyed. I can totally see House Lannister forking up the Gold to the Faceless Men to take down the Valyrians. Though this doesn't add up with what the Faceless Men say, and requires thought into the relations back then, but still, very plausible.

Garin's Curse? This i dont understand. How does this alone, or with the above actions, bring about the Doom? Which sounds like the Volcanoes blowing. So how could undead stone men factor in??

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition.
 
Could Garin and the Rhoynar be tied. Could Garin's curse have been more than just stone men, or something other than stone men.  Could remnants of the Rhoynar make up the Braavosi peoples? Peoples who were slaves of conquered domains (Rhoynar)?
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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None of these. 

I believe the Doom happened because "sorcery is a sword without a hilt: there is no safe way to grasp it" and Valyrians were making too much of it. So the result was a something like a gargantuan nuclear-seismic disaster.

And that's the reason why I think the Citadel engaged in a conspiracy against magic: to avoid the Doom from repeating itself in Westeros 114 years after, since Aegon's Conquest.

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Pretty straightforward. The Valyrians needed their sorcerors to constantly maintain spells to keep the "volcanic pressure" from building up in the Fourteen Fires. It seems likely they harnessed this energy in some way to power their civilization. It also seems that part of the maintenance requirement of these spells, was ongoing human sacrifice, but that as an aside.

Then, some time around 400 years ago the Lannisters bought a Valyrian steel sword for a tremendous amount of gold, from some Valyrian lord. This Valyrian lord was in conflict with the other 39 Valyrian dragonlords, and to gain an advantage, he used that gold to pay the Faceless Men to assassinate the sorcerors of some of his rival Houses. Clearly it was known that by killing off the sorcerors of a rival House, you somehow weakened that House.

In any case, it appears that an unintended side effect of this assassination, was that the spells pacifying the volcano could no longer be properly maintained, and a chain reaction followed which resulted in the Doom.

This I believe is the story Martin intends to portray, if one delves deeply enough into the hints he has provided. Of course, there are a number of weaknesses in this chain of events, of note, the idea that the cost of a Valyrian blade would be so high that the amount of gold paid for it could change the balance of power among the Valyrian Dragonlords. This is just an absurd idea, considering that there were thousands of Valyrian blades in existence.

Tied to this first issue, is the idea  that the richest House in Westeros could still be without a Valyrian blade 400 years ago, when other, far poorer Houses presumably had Valyrian blades long before that.

But despite the above issues, I think this is what Martin envisages happened to cause the Doom.

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One theory that comes to mind I heard awhile back is that when Jon Snow let the Wildlings through the Wall it set off a great cosmic disaster in the space time continuum that  caused the Doom of Valyria that killed off all magic and happiness until Daenerys brought it back through her sheer awesomeness. 

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1 hour ago, Ckram said:

None of these. 

I believe the Doom happened because "sorcery is a sword without a hilt: there is no safe way to grasp it" and Valyrians were making too much of it. So the result was a something like a gargantuan nuclear-seismic disaster.

And that's the reason why I think the Citadel engaged in a conspiracy against magic: to avoid the Doom from repeating itself in Westeros 114 years after, since Aegon's Conquest.

Well, thats the same thing TWOIAF tells us. So not really a theory. Possible, but i think its a lil more than just that. 

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37 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Pretty straightforward. The Valyrians needed their sorcerors to constantly maintain spells to keep the "volcanic pressure" from building up in the Fourteen Fires. It seems likely they harnessed this energy in some way to power their civilization. It also seems that part of the maintenance requirement of these spells, was ongoing human sacrifice, but that as an aside.

Then, some time around 400 years ago the Lannisters bought a Valyrian steel sword for a tremendous amount of gold, from some Valyrian lord. This Valyrian lord was in conflict with the other 39 Valyrian dragonlords, and to gain an advantage, he used that gold to pay the Faceless Men to assassinate the sorcerors of some of his rival Houses. Clearly it was known that by killing off the sorcerors of a rival House, you somehow weakened that House.

In any case, it appears that an unintended side effect of this assassination, was that the spells pacifying the volcano could no longer be properly maintained, and a chain reaction followed which resulted in the Doom.

This I believe is the story Martin intends to portray, if one delves deeply enough into the hints he has provided. Of course, there are a number of weaknesses in this chain of events, of note, the idea that the cost of a Valyrian blade would be so high that the amount of gold paid for it could change the balance of power among the Valyrian Dragonlords. This is just an absurd idea, considering that there were thousands of Valyrian blades in existence.

Tied to this first issue, is the idea  that the richest House in Westeros could still be without a Valyrian blade 400 years ago, when other, far poorer Houses presumably had Valyrian blades long before that.

But despite the above issues, I think this is what Martin envisages happened to cause the Doom.

Well that covers the same i covered above mostly with out touching on the main thing i was getting at. Which is how Garin's curse would work into that picture, or even on it's own given it was way before the doom by 600 years.

As to the swords. It is very interesting that the Lannisters had to pay such a high price. Its also interesting that House Lannister, Stark, and Hightower are the only major houses mentioned to have them. While Lannisters had to pay a high price for it. Every other house is a lesser house with House Mormont being the oddest, as they are the poorest. Durrandon, Gardener, Arryn, Martell, and Mudd are not mentioned to have had any. Unless you count Age of Heroes accounts. 

Who ever was giving these swords out seems to have been trying to unite the lesser houses to them, while ignoring most major houses. House Hightower getting one is the least surprising, as they were also given Glass Candles by the Valyrians around 1400 years ago. House Hightower can see the Wall from their Hightower and i believe this is due to their Glass Candles. This may suggest the Stark link and why House Stark got one. 

Lannister's are a mystery though, especially since it was their gold that was said to bring down the Valyrians. Though them having to pay a high price suggest either, no one wanted them to have one, or, they knew they could rape them on the price. 

Also, Lannisters having a pact with House Targaryen falls apart with Loren Lannister taking the field against them. So i would see them as opposition 

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6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well that covers the same i covered above mostly with out touching on the main thing i was getting at. Which is how Garin's curse would work into that picture, or even on it's own given it was way before the doom by 600 years.

As to the swords. It is very interesting that the Lannisters had to pay such a high price. Its also interesting that House Lannister, Stark, and Hightower are the only major houses mentioned to have them. While Lannisters had to pay a high price for it. Every other house is a lesser house with House Mormont being the oddest, as they are the poorest. Durrandon, Gardener, Arryn, Martell, and Mudd are not mentioned to have had any. Unless you count Age of Heroes accounts. 

Who ever was giving these swords out seems to have been trying to unite the lesser houses to them, while ignoring most major houses. House Hightower getting one is the least surprising, as they were also given Glass Candles by the Valyrians around 1400 years ago. House Hightower can see the Wall from their Hightower and i believe this is due to their Glass Candles. This may suggest the Stark link and why House Stark got one. 

Lannister's are a mystery though, especially since it was their gold that was said to bring down the Valyrians. Though them having to pay a high price suggest either, no one wanted them to have one, or, they knew they could rape them on the price. 

Also, Lannisters having a pact with House Targaryen falls apart with Loren Lannister taking the field against them. So i would see them as opposition 

Garen's curse had nothing to do with it. Garin's curse created the Stone Men, and the Greyscale and Grey plague diseases. It may come into play later in the series, but it had nothing to do with the Doom, that we know of.

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Garen's curse had nothing to do with it. Garin's curse created the Stone Men, and the Greyscale and Grey plague diseases. It may come into play later in the series, but it had nothing to do with the Doom, that we know of.

When people are so absolute on things it makes me chuckle

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

When people are so absolute on things it makes me chuckle

 

 

Sure, some argue that Ghost Grass will bring about the end of the World, or that Clarence Crabb once twisted a Dragon's neck in a knot so that when it breathed fire it roasted its own arse, or even that Lannister's shit gold. That doesn't make it true.

In this case, there is no evidence provided to link Garen's curse to the Doom. In contrast to the very plausible flow of gold from the Lannisters to a Valyrian lord and on to the Faceless Men, which provides a clear mechanism for initiating the Doom by way of assassination of the sorcerors who kept the Fourteen Fires in check.

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sure, some argue that Ghost Grass will bring about the end of the World, or that Clarence Crabb once twisted a Dragon's neck in a knot so that when it breathed fire it roasted its own arse, or even that Lannister's shit gold. That doesn't make it true.

In this case, there is no evidence provided to link Garen's curse to the Doom. In contrast to the very plausible flow of gold from the Lannisters to a Valyrian lord and on to the Faceless Men, which provides a clear mechanism for initiating the Doom by way of assassination of the sorcerors who kept the Fourteen Fires in check.

Ok. Again. Im curious for ideas of how Garin's curse DOES play into the events. And the only thing you listed above that is actually stupid and not likely is the Lannister part. 

Clarence is one of many dragon slayer listed in the Age of Heroes. Clarence, Galladon of Morne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Florian the Fool, Davos the Dragon slayer and the First Hightowers. 

Ghost Grass kills every other living plant, so yea, unless it's gotten rid of. It would bring about the end of the world. Since it's likely tied to Magic, im sure it will be resolved. Though im sure it's still an active threat till then. 

Again, i already listed Lannister involvement with the Faceless men as known wheels in how Valyria fell. Im curious how Garin's curse COULD have factored in :) 

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@Free Northman Reborn

So for instance, how could Garin and the Rhoynar be tied. Could Garin's curse have been more than just stone men, or something other than stone men.  Could remnants of the Rhoynar make up the Braavosi peoples? Peoples who were slaves of conquered domains (Rhoynar)?

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12 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im curious how Garin's curse COULD have factored in :) 

No idea.

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14 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No idea.

Well im not opposed to the other stuff, just not incorporating the Rhoynar bit.

I suspect that the Slaves who founded Braavos may have been the slaves from the Rhoynar. Im not sure how any actual curse could still factor in, but i think that's one possible way Garin and the Rhoynar are some how involved. 

We have Lannisters, Braavos, and the Rhoynar all linked some how supposedly. Though the Rhoynar would have plenty of reason to end Valyria on their own with out Lannister Gold. So how did the gold play into things? I doubt the faceless men needed the gold to do the murder, unless they did the Golden Crown bit. It's not like the Braavosi used the gold to raise an army against Valyria. Though they may have used the gold to found the Bank of Braavos?

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I suspect that the Slaves who founded Braavos may have been the slaves from the Rhoynar. Im not sure how any actual curse could still factor in, but i think that's one possible way Garin and the Rhoynar are some how involved. 

There where Rhoynar among them but they certainly where not the majority, as a matter of fact there was no majority of any race among the slaves.

From TWOIAF:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

However, it is clear that Braavos is unique among all the Free Cities, as it was founded not by the will of the Freehold, nor by its citizens, but instead by its slaves. According to the tales of the Braavosi, a huge slaver fleet that had been out collecting tributes in human flesh from the lands of the Summer and Jade Seas became victim to a slave uprising instead;

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities

The ninth stands as an exception, for Braavos of the Hundred Isles was founded by escaped slaves fleeing their Valyrian masters. Those first Braavosi came from every land beneath the sun, it is said, but as centuries passed, they bred with one another regardless of race or creed or language to form a new mongrel people.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Braavos

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found. Braavosi histories claim that a group of slave women from the distant lands of the Jogos Nhai prophesied where they would find shelter:

Since the escaped slaves came from many lands and held many faiths, the founders of Braavos created a place where all gods were given their due and decreed that none would ever be made paramount over another. They were a diverse people, whose numbers included Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori, even debtors and criminals of pure Valyrian blood.

 

So even do they where certainly among them i do not think there impact would really be that great.

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2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

There where Rhoynar among them but they certainly where not the majority, as a matter of fact there was no majority of any race among the slaves.

From TWOIAF:

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

However, it is clear that Braavos is unique among all the Free Cities, as it was founded not by the will of the Freehold, nor by its citizens, but instead by its slaves. According to the tales of the Braavosi, a huge slaver fleet that had been out collecting tributes in human flesh from the lands of the Summer and Jade Seas became victim to a slave uprising instead;

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities

The ninth stands as an exception, for Braavos of the Hundred Isles was founded by escaped slaves fleeing their Valyrian masters. Those first Braavosi came from every land beneath the sun, it is said, but as centuries passed, they bred with one another regardless of race or creed or language to form a new mongrel people.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Braavos

Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to "the far ends of the earth" to escape their erstwhile masters. Knowing they would be hunted, the slaves turned away from their intended destination and sailed north instead of south, seeking a refuge as far from Valyria and her vengeance as could be found. Braavosi histories claim that a group of slave women from the distant lands of the Jogos Nhai prophesied where they would find shelter:

Since the escaped slaves came from many lands and held many faiths, the founders of Braavos created a place where all gods were given their due and decreed that none would ever be made paramount over another. They were a diverse people, whose numbers included Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori, even debtors and criminals of pure Valyrian blood.

 

So even do they where certainly among them i do not think there impact would really be that great.

Hmmm. Except the fact that the people of the summer Islands are black. The peoples of Braavos are not described as black. 

And was it a slave ship off the summer seas or a slave ship wandering around Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori?

Though im not debating they may have been made up of differing peoples. Just that the Rhoynar possibly made up the bulk, possibly explaining Garin's curse. Just speculating though. So more interested in ideas than people popping in just to say no to something. This isn't a theory to be debated against, but a post seeking ideas. 

 

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18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hmmm. Except the fact that the people of the summer Islands are black. The peoples of Braavos are not described as black. 

And was it a slave ship off the summer seas or a slave ship wandering around Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori?

Though im not debating they may have been made up of differing peoples. Just that the Rhoynar possibly made up the bulk, possibly explaining Garin's curse. Just speculating though. So more interested in ideas than people popping in just to say no to something. This isn't a theory to be debated against, but a post seeking ideas. 

 

It was actually an entire fleet of slave ships, and i was responding to your suggestion that the Rhoynar may have made up the bulk, since it is made clear that they came from so many different lands there was not one people that had a majority.

If you want to find Rhoynar you should look at the Orphans of the Greenblood who are almost pure Rhoynar.

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Queer Customs of the South

Standing apart from the rest of the Dornish—salty or sandy or stony alike—are the orphans of the Greenblood, who wept when Nymeria burned their ships. From their ruins they made their poleboats, to ply the Greenblood and dream of the day that they could return to Mother Rhoyne. Of pure Rhoynish blood, they still speak their tongue amongst themselves, it is said—though in secret after the three successors of Nymeria's grandson, Prince Mors II, attempted to forbid it.

We also know that some do actually return to the Rhoyne like Yandry and his wife Ysilla.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Yandry swore the Rhoynar princes used to ride them across the river. He and his wife were Greenblood born, a pair of Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne.

Maybe you can find a connection there.

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, thats the same thing TWOIAF tells us. So not really a theory. Possible, but i think its a lil more than just that. 

Just checked about the Doom in TWOIAF and I confess you're right. I thought it was an impression of mine, but it was on the book. Sorry for playing Captain Obvious here.

However I didn't find any mention of a connection between the Doom of Valyria and The Citadel's commitment against magic. I know it's a secret because it's a conspiracy, but since you didn't especified which part of my answer was copied from TWOIAF I imagined I had plagiarized both parts.

Would you mind telling me if is that so?

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11 hours ago, Ckram said:

Just checked about the Doom in TWOIAF and I confess you're right. I thought it was an impression of mine, but it was on the book. Sorry for playing Captain Obvious here.

However I didn't find any mention of a connection between the Doom of Valyria and The Citadel's commitment against magic. I know it's a secret because it's a conspiracy, but since you didn't especified which part of my answer was copied from TWOIAF I imagined I had plagiarized both parts.

Would you mind telling me if is that so?

Haha its all good :D my og post my not have been explicit enough hahah 

The citadel def is not mentioned as having a part and one i can definitely bite into and interested in more :D

The OG post was mostly seeking thoughts on how the Rhoynar and Garin's curse plays into things. Like, trying to imagine all scenarios are right in some way. Just that we're missing the link. Its easy to say no to alot of things as most on these forums do, but i like to occasionally play around with ideas :)

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12 hours ago, direpupy said:

It was actually an entire fleet of slave ships, and i was responding to your suggestion that the Rhoynar may have made up the bulk, since it is made clear that they came from so many different lands there was not one people that had a majority.

If you want to find Rhoynar you should look at the Orphans of the Greenblood who are almost pure Rhoynar.

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Queer Customs of the South

Standing apart from the rest of the Dornish—salty or sandy or stony alike—are the orphans of the Greenblood, who wept when Nymeria burned their ships. From their ruins they made their poleboats, to ply the Greenblood and dream of the day that they could return to Mother Rhoyne. Of pure Rhoynish blood, they still speak their tongue amongst themselves, it is said—though in secret after the three successors of Nymeria's grandson, Prince Mors II, attempted to forbid it.

We also know that some do actually return to the Rhoyne like Yandry and his wife Ysilla.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Yandry swore the Rhoynar princes used to ride them across the river. He and his wife were Greenblood born, a pair of Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne.

Maybe you can find a connection there.

Not so much looking for the Rhoynar them selves as i am looking for their possible help in the fall of Valyria. Hypothetical, tinfoil or otherwise. Just some creative thought working them into the Lannister gold and Facless men of Braavos scenario already mentioned. :)

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8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not so much looking for the Rhoynar them selves as i am looking for their possible help in the fall of Valyria. Hypothetical, tinfoil or otherwise. Just some creative thought working them into the Lannister gold and Facless men of Braavos scenario already mentioned. :)

Well there is the question of who the first Faceless men is? He was a slave in the mines in Valyria so there is always the possibility that he was Rhoynar. Unfortunately there is no way to prove whether her is or is not.

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