Sexual Assault part 4 - "no, I don't want to see your weaner!"

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's not turning yourself into "a coalition against accusers". None of them said these women are lying. They are saying this is not the man we know. This is not the man we worked with for decades.

How is it not? When they say this accused grope isn't the man they know, the implication is the accusers must be lYing or must have motive or whatever.  Dozens are doing this same thing with Moore. People do it for the accused all the time and the veracity of these public defenses have the power of preventing others from coming forward, as has often been the case. 

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't see how those two things are related. This is a sincere defense of their longtime friend and co-worker, It doesn't mean he's innocent. You're ill because some women stood by their friend? That's a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

A movement where sexual harassment being acknowledged like never before potentially coming to an end making me ill is hyperbolic only if you're pro harassment.

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, zelticgar said:

Everyday is bringing new sex scandals. So many creepers exposed but I think there are more to come. 

So I was listening to Andy Cohen on the ride in today (don't judge) and he had Melissa Gilbert on. She is the little girl from Little House on the Prairie. She later went on to have a decent career in made for TV movies and was President of SAG. She told an interesting story about reading for the Meg Ryan role for Oliver Stone's Doors movie. Apparently at an event before the audition Oliver had been talking shit about TV, he was above doing TV etc... Melissa got into it with him about it and he got pissed. Fast forward and she is auditioning. She claims he created a seperate audition script for her that would have made her crawl around on the floor in a sexually charged and submissive manner. She claims he did is specifically to get back at her for the prior incident. She seemed pretty credible and the way she describes it makes it seem pretty creepy. 

I also heard an old bit on Stern this morning where they were making fun of Mike Pence because he wont have dinner or be alone with a female for any reason. Their theory was he knows he cant control himself so he never puts himself in that position. Might be true but based on what is going on now seems like a not insane policy. 

 

This just seems like the natural real life equivalent of what I and Dr. Pepper mentioned in the last thread; men personal messaging me on Facebook messenger to call me a whore and a slut because...we have different analysis of say...twin peaks (real story...he was super vile) like...a woman simply disagreeing with a man and him becoming aggressive and sexual violent in language or behaviour.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

50 minutes ago, mormont said:

Standing by your friend is one thing. Releasing a public statement supporting your friend is quite another. You can do the former by calling your friend up and letting them know you're with them. When you do the latter, you're not telling your friend you support them. The message you're sending is to the world at large, and yeah, that means you're defending them. 

There is a difference, but this mostly suggests to me that these women feel strongly enough about Franken to make a strong statement. There is also the possibility that Franken or his office pushed for this. That would make it less meaningful. Of course they are defending him, but defending him does not necessarily equal attacking his accusers. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

A movement where sexual harassment being acknowledged like never before potentially coming to an end making me ill is hyperbolic only if you're pro harassment.

I'd be a lot more concerned about an accused kiddie diddler being elected to the senate despite multiple accusations of molestation and harassment. Now that's something worthy of feeling ill over. Women expressing their support of a longtime friend however is hardly pro harassment.

[Kelli Fury]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

As for Pence, well that is old news. He is very odd in that regard and it has to do seemingly with his "respect for his wife" that he wouldn't put himself in that position. I don't know what I believe there as I don't have a great deal of time for his beliefs, but seems a fair thing to do.

It’s a fair thing to do if you’re a cashier at WalMart with no direct reports. If you are in a position where the careers of others depend on access to you (like Vice President of WalMart or of the United States), it is discriminatory and puts women at a disadvantage in their ability to do jobs that might include occasionally being in a meeting with you alone.

[Kelli Fury]

Just confirmed-Charlie Rose has been fired.

[zelticgar]

7 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

It’s a fair thing to do if you’re a cashier at WalMart with no direct reports. If you are in a position where the careers of others depend on access to you (like Vice President of WalMart or of the United States), it is discriminatory and puts women at a disadvantage in their ability to do jobs that might include occasionally being in a meeting with you alone.

Technically the Pence rule relates to dining with women who are not his wife or being at events where alcohol is served and his wife is not in attendance. He never specified situations where he would have to meet with a female staffer one on one. I would assume he handles it like most normal people do - in an office that is visible to other employees. 

[Kelli Fury]

5 minutes ago, zelticgar said:

Technically the Pence rule relates to dining with women who are not his wife or being at events where alcohol is served and his wife is not in attendance. He never specified situations where he would have to meet with a female staffer one on one. I would assume he handles it like most normal people do - in an office that is visible to other employees. 

Do you think their work is never conducted at lunch or dinner at restaurants that serve alcohol? Do you think it is appropriate for his wife to be at these meetings? If I’m a female member of Congress and I would like a meeting with the Vice President, meal times, which typically are the go to short notice meetings in these jobs, are unavailable to me but available to my male colleagues.

[Fez]

10 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

It’s a fair thing to do if you’re a cashier at WalMart with no direct reports. If you are in a position where the careers of others depend on access to you (like Vice President of WalMart or of the United States), it is discriminatory and puts women at a disadvantage in their ability to do jobs that might include occasionally being in a meeting with you alone.

I have a problem with Pence's solution too, but I wonder what better option there is (beyond making it non-discriminatory by refusing to meet alone with absolutely anyone who isn't family). It's easy enough to say "Men need to stop being fucking disgusting," but that's harder to put in place, especially when there are still millions of older men in the workforce who personally remember when most of these behaviors were more socially acceptable. It's not feasible to fire everyone and will likely lead to greater pushback. And there's not really any evidence that sexual harassment training works either.

Maybe there is an overall societal shift we can make with enough effort, but that'll take years, likely decades, to fully manifest itself (and it won't at all so long as a significant portion of the country doesn't care about this issue, other than as a political weapon). In the mean time, there does need to be something that happens. I've seen it suggested that companies should stop sponsoring alcohol-involved events, but that change also would take time and of course many of these incidents did not involve drunk men, so it wouldn't solve the problem either.

Maybe Pence's idea is the right one (so long as it's applied to all people, not just women).

[Kelli Fury]

9 minutes ago, Fez said:

I have a problem with Pence's solution too, but I wonder what better option there is (beyond making it non-discriminatory by refusing to meet alone with absolutely anyone who isn't family). It's easy enough to say "Men need to stop being fucking disgusting," but that's harder to put in place, especially when there are still millions of older men in the workforce who personally remember when most of these behaviors were more socially acceptable. It's not feasible to fire everyone and will likely lead to greater pushback. And there's not really any evidence that sexual harassment training works either.

Maybe there is an overall societal shift we can make with enough effort, but that'll take years, likely decades, to fully manifest itself (and it won't at all so long as a significant portion of the country doesn't care about this issue, other than as a political weapon). In the mean time, there does need to be something that happens. I've seen it suggested that companies should stop sponsoring alcohol-involved events, but that change also would take time and of course many of these incidents did not involve drunk men, so it wouldn't solve the problem either.

Maybe Pence's idea is the right one (so long as it's applied to all people, not just women).

I think like any behavior that is criminal or otherwise unacceptable, holding perpetrators accountable when expectations are not met and educating everyone what expectations are is the only reasonable solution. We don’t need goofy puritanical handmaids tale rules. We just need clear boundaries and actual consequences.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Honestly, the Pence thing is a weird thing to state aloud, as he did, but outside of that, I don't think it's that odd. Outside of my mother or my daughter or one of my step-daughters, I can't think of an occasion over the last decade where I've went out to a meal with a woman who is not my wife. I don't think it would be necessarily a strange thing to do, but it's not beyond the pale either.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

I think like any behavior that is criminal or otherwise unacceptable, holding perpetrators accountable when expectations are not met and educating everyone what expectations are is the only reasonable solution. We don’t need goofy puritanical handmaids tale rules. We just need clear boundaries and actual consequences.

But this isn't a societal rule, it's a rule between he and his wife. If that's what works for them, who are we to judge?

[zelticgar]

9 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Do you think their work is never conducted at lunch or dinner at restaurants that serve alcohol? Do you think it is appropriate for his wife to be at these meetings? If I’m a female member of Congress and I would like a meeting with the Vice President, meal times, which typically are the go to short notice meetings in these jobs, are unavailable to me but available to my male colleagues.

It sounds like Pence has a different style where he does not spend much time working over dinner with staffers or other colleagues. 

 

[Kelli Fury]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

But this isn't a societal rule, it's a rule between he and his wife. If that's what works for them, who are we to judge?

His constituents? I feel completely free to judge a Vice President who has different rules for meeting with my female senator from my male senator, who has less available time for female reporters. It’s a rule that impacts his job and the jobs of others and that impacts me.

[Ran]

He wasn’t having private dinners much at all.

Weaselly, that bit. So he did have private dinners. But with men -- perhaps a lobbyist, perhaps a politician, perhaps a tech CEO, etc. ,etc. -- but not women. And she's not really ruling out that sometime, maybe he also had private dinners with male staff.

This sort of personal policy is a bad thing to have if you are a member of government, because you are giving different levels of access to yourself , an office-holder, depending on gender, which goes against the spirit of federal laws against discrimination.

The proper way for a person to do these things? Behave with utmost professionalism and you're not going to have any problems. For every case of someone alleged to act inappropriately, there are surely hundreds of elected officials and civil servants who have gone by without any issue at all because they've fostered a professional attitude in themselves and in their workplace.

 

 

 

[Mexal]

17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Honestly, the Pence thing is a weird thing to state aloud, as he did, but outside of that, I don't think it's that odd. Outside of my mother or my daughter or one of my step-daughters, I can't think of an occasion over the last decade where I've went out to a meal with a woman who is not my wife. I don't think it would be necessarily a strange thing to do, but it's not beyond the pale either.

I do. I work with a lot of women, I go out to dinner with women after work, especially when I'm traveling for my client. My wife trusts me and I trust myself. It's not an issue.

I still worry about false equivalence. I get the Franken backlash but it's so small in comparison to the years of abuse that we're seeing from people like Rose, Moore, Weinstein, Goodman, Spacey, etc. I just think the level of outrage should be consistent with the actual instances and pattern of sexual harassment. Franken's seems so small in comparison and is something I have experienced as a man on multiple occasions, from men and women. Not saying it's right, just think we're soon going to be on the verge of overreacting to all of this and be screaming for the same punishment for any accusation, no matter what it is or who it comes from.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I do. I work with a lot of women, I go out to dinner with women after work, especially when I'm traveling for my client. My wife trusts me and I trust myself. It's not an issue.

Yeah, I get that this sort of thing is going to vary from couple to couple. YMMV and all that.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Weaselly, that bit. So he did have private dinners. But with men -- perhaps a lobbyist, perhaps a politician, perhaps a tech CEO, etc. ,etc. -- but not women. And she's not really ruling out that sometime, maybe he also had private dinners with male staff.

This sort of personal policy is a bad thing to have if you are a member of government, because you are giving different levels of access to yourself , an office-holder, depending on gender, which goes against the spirit of federal laws against discrimination.

The proper way for a person to do these things? Behave with utmost professionalism and you're not going to have any problems. For every case of someone alleged to act inappropriately, there are surely hundreds of elected officials and civil servants who have gone by without any issue at all because they've fostered a professional attitude in themselves and in their workplace.

Not sure how you can carry it out this far. He's not saying he can't meet with women after hours, he's saying he wouldn't do it unless his wife was present. 

I don't much care to defend Mike Pence. I find his homophobia and fundamentalism to be extremely regressive in nature, but this particular peccadillo doesn't bother me that much.

[zelticgar]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

This sort of personal policy is a bad thing to have if you are a member of government, because you are giving different levels of access to yourself , an office-holder, depending on gender, which goes against the spirit of federal laws against discrimination.

 

As opposed to most politicians,  who tie personal access to how much a lobbyist donates to them. 

[Morpheus]

Mike pence's dining policy is absolutely moronic and insane and deserving of the ridicule it received, no matter how many conservative nitwits tout it as sound advice in light of recent scandals. The implication is either that men cannot control themselves around women or that women might lie about men assaulting them so it is best not to give them the chance. It is perfectly possible for men to have dinners with coworkers or female friends.

Never forget, Mike Pence is a legitimate lunatic, American Taliban all the way through. If you find youself looking to him for wisdom of any kind, sort your life out or next thing you know, you may think child molesters make fine senators as long as they value fetuses above preteens.