R+L=A

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

My responses in relation to the book quotes are in bold, this is my first time using the book stuff, quote for quote, and clearly I screwed it up big time, so I bolded my responses in an effort of you guys understanding my screwed up post a little better. Sorry about that, guys.

Reads Ok, everything still understandable. I noticed two new things thanks to you  

16 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

He specifically enumerates his children, but leaves Jon out of the mix.

When I was previously reading that part in the book, I thought that when he was thinking about some child, it was reference either towards Jon or Dany's child, and TOTALLY missed the meaning of a second part, when he was enumerating his children, and what could mean Jon not counted amongs them

16 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

The blue rose petals in Lyanna's hand, as she's laying dying in the bed, yet gripping those rose petals in her hand, seems to be direct foreshadowing of Jon, when we've heard him referred to in visions as the "Winter rose growing out of the wall"...The Wall...

I noticed this winter rose in the wall, from Dany's vision, and it was obvious to me, that it is Jon. Though previously I didn't connected roses of dying Lyanna with Jon. Stupid me  This is probably the biggest and most direct sign, given by GRRM, that Jon is indeed Lyanna's child. And it's obvious that if Lyanna did had a child, then the only person who could be the father is Rhaegar.

Previously I was sure that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and when in Epilogue of Dance, Varys revealed to Kevan existance of Young Griff, I thought that it couldn't be true, and that this is Varys' hoax. But when chapters of Winter started to appear, and Young Griff was there with Jon Con, and Jon Con was sure that the boy is Rhaegar's son, I started to think that either he is a pretender and a secret Blackfyre, or if he is really son of Rhaegar, then Jon isn't. Because there couldn't be not one, but TWO secret Targaryen Princes. If Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen, then what is the purpose for Jon's character? There's no need for two Kings, or two Azor Ahai.

Though if Jon is Lyanna's baby, then either Young Griff is a fake, or Jon and him and Dany are three heads of the dragon. Dany does have three dragons, so maybe their number is also a direct hint from GRRM, how many dragonriders there will be.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Previously I was sure that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and when in Epilogue of Dance, Varys revealed to Kevan existance of Young Griff, I thought that it couldn't be true, and that this is Varys' hoax

Why would Varys reveal his true plans to a dying man? He has no reason to. 

And the first solution to a problem is usually not the real one, if that makes any sense.

The catspaw's dagger is Tyrion's. No it's not.
The Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. No they didn't.
Ned broke his wedding vows, and fathered a bastard. No, he didn't.
Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Probably not.
Bran thinking that the crannogman was the knight of the laughing tree. Probably not.
Rhaegar wanted a Visenya to complete the set. I'm willing to bet that this is not it at all. GRRM uses Dany as a vehicle to introduce the idea, the same way he used Robert to present Rhaegar as a rapist, Lysa to accuse the Lannisters of Jon Arryn's murder, Littlefinger to accuse Tyrion of Bran's near murder and so on.

Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen. Probably not. I think there's enough evidence that points to no, he's not Rhaegar and Elia's son, and he's the character I feel the sorriest for as of now. In any case we don't know what kind of proof Jon Connington was given, but Jon Conn is desperate to redeem himself. It's sad, really. He's another character who has never been able to fully move on from the war. 

These are a handful of examples. The answers we are given right off the bat are usually not the real answers.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

If Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen, then what is the purpose for Jon's character? There's no need for two Kings, or two Azor Ahai.

This might actually be important, in the sense that we have Benerro who believes that Dany is AA, and we have Mel believing it's Stannis, although who knows how long she'll remain on that bandwagon, and we have Young Griff and whatever Jon Conn knows about the prophecy and what Rhaegar may have believed about Aegon. That's like 3 different people. 

[Megorova]

50 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Why would Varys reveal his true plans to a dying man? He has no reason to. 

This is what Varys said:

Spoiler

Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

And this part "A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains." was from Kevan's memories. Kevan himself assumed that "Aegon" about whom Varys was talking, is that Aegon. But nothing said by Varys, suggests that the Aegon about whom he is talking, is Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia.

And about why was he telling this to Kevan, is just because he had to say something, while they were having that scene, and Varys was killing him. He actually didn't revealed any plans, definite plans, what he said was just ... conversing. Because do you really believe that their plan is to seize Storm's End, and that after that all lords will bend the knee to fAegon? What Varys was saying was just a filler.

The main reason why I think that R+L=J is wrong, is because of that other media.

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here.

 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

But nothing said by Varys, suggests that the Aegon about whom he is talking, is Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia.

Well, yes it does. Kevan is clearly talking about Prince Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia, who supposedly died at the end of RR. For Varys to say “No... He is here” he’s either lying (which he claims he doesn’t do) or he truly believes Aegon is the real deal. Being clever and using misdirection (Kevan is talking about one Aegon while Varys is referring to a completely different “Aegon”) is still lying, even if he winks and says “I never said WHICH Aegon”.

 

[IceFire125]

Little birds, little birds, little birds everywhere... and not all are loyal to Varys.

“I am pleased to hear it, my lord. Some of your sister’s hirelings are mine as well, unbeknownst to her. I should hate to think they had grown so sloppy as to be seen.”

...

...but I find it best to err on the side of caution.”
“How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?”
“The tunnel was dug for another King’s Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence.”
“And yet you knew of it.”
“Little birds fly through many a dark tunnel. Careful, the steps are steep.”

...

Tyrion adjusted the heavy cloak and paced restlessly. “You missed a lively council. Stannis has crowned himself, it seems.”
“I know.”
“He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion.”
“Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard’s hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear.” The eunuch’s laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty.
“Someone like you, perchance?”
“Am I suspected? It was not me.”
“If it had been, would you admit it?”
“No. But why should I betray a secret I have kept so long? It is one thing to deceive a king, and quite another to hide from the cricket in the rushes and the little bird in the chimney. Besides, the bastards were there for all to see.”
“Robert’s bastards? What of them?”
“He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing,” Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. “Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens … and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse.”

Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion … but then she would not have been Cersei. “If you were not this whisperer, who was?”
“Some traitor, doubtless.” Varys tightened the cinch.
“Littlefinger?”
“I named no name.”

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Being clever and using misdirection

Which is his typical way of misleading people. "There was a boy who owed Jon Arryn everything" seemed to fit Ser Hugh perfectly - only later we learn that it was LF who owed his rise to power to Jon Arryn. 

[Noel E Mahc]

On 11/28/2017 at 10:12 PM, LynnS said:

I do think Lyanna is his mother and Rhaegar is Dany's father.  Also that Aegon is Rhaegar's son.  I don't agree with a romanticized version that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna and they eloped.  

This. 

 

Btw, for now my number one pick for Jon's father is Ned with Lyanna as the mother.  That's IF Lyanna had a child, but I know it's not the thread for this.  

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

5 hours ago, Jamie Roberts said:

This. 

 

Btw, for now my number one pick for Jon's father is Ned with Lyanna as the mother.  That's IF Lyanna had a child, but I know it's not the thread for this.  

Sooo, you're telling me Ned & Lyanna are no different from Cersei & Jaimie? Despite, Neds obvious disgust and dismay of Joffrey being the child of incest?

[Noel E Mahc]

13 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Sooo, you're telling me Ned & Lyanna are no different from Cersei & Jaimie? Despite, Neds obvious disgust and dismay of Joffrey being the child of incest?

Yep.  Ned has done things in his life that other people wouldn't believe he would do.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Jamie Roberts said:

Yep.  Ned has done things in his life that other people wouldn't believe he would do.

Like what?

[Noel E Mahc]

35 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Like what?

Having a bastard.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

If Jon is Lyanna's child, he doesn't have one. There's nothing to support Ned & Lyanna having an incestuous relationship. And you implied things, as in plural, Ned claiming Jon as his bastard is one thing.

[Noel E Mahc]

2 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

If Jon is Lyanna's child, he doesn't have one. There's nothing to support Ned & Lyanna having an incestuous relationship. And you implied things, as in plural, Ned claiming Jon as his bastard is one thing.

That answer was for Nowy Tends, but you already proved my point by that comment about Jon.  If you believe that, then Ned is a liar.  So you should know he is able to lie about certain things when he needs to.  The way Ned described Lyanna should have made you question how he saw her.  Well, like I said before, this is not the thread for this.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

There's nothing to support Ned & Lyanna having an incestuous relationship

That said if Lyanna had an incestuous relationship with any brother, which I'm 99.9% sure she did not, it would have been Brandon. It's always Brandon.

Ned only tells white lies that protect other people. Like when he told everyone that Catelyn kid napped Tyrion at his command. Lying about a relationship with his younger sister only protects himself, something that we know he won't do. He was willing to die rather then take back his claim about Joffrey. He only agreed to lie about Joff after Sansa and Arya were threatened.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:00 PM, Faera said:

Can you provide textual evidence that could connect Ned to Young Griff?

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

 

On 11/28/2017 at 6:40 PM, Megorova said:

You're forgetting several important things:

1. Young Griff is supposedly Aegon Martell (son of Elia). And that baby was born either in 281 or 282. That baby was already born prior Tournament at Harrenhal.

Lyanna was kidnapped nearly a year, or a year, after tournament, so Elia's baby was [(timespan after Aegon's birth and until Tournament) + (timespan from Tournament and until Lyanna's kidnapping (12 or so months)) + 9 months of Lyanna's pregnancy]-old, at the time when Varys gave Young Griff to Jon Connington.

Elia's Aegon was supposed to be 21+ months old. While Lyanna's baby at that time was a newborn. Nearly 2-years old child doesn't look like a newborn baby. Elia's baby definitely, for sure, 1000%, was at least 21 months older than Lyanna's baby.

And JonCon, while thinking about fAegon's parents, thinks about Rhaegar and Elia, not about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2. Ned had no connection with Varys. So why would he give his nephew to him? Why would he give the baby away to a freakish Spider, if he promised to his sister to keep the baby safe?

3. In genetic darker colors are dominant. If one of parents have dark eyes and dark hair, and the other parent have light hair and light eyes, then the baby will have dark hair and dark eyes.

And multiple examples of characters from ASOIAF world, prove that GRRM did minded real world genetics, when he made them: all Baratheons are dark haired and have dark-blue eyes; Cersei's children didn't inherited Baratheon's genetical traits, that's how Jon Arryn and Ned Stark realised that Robert is not their father; Elia's daughter Rhaenys, had dark hair and eyes like her mother; Jon Snow has Lyanna's dark hair and her grey eyes; Gendry had dark hair like Robert, even though his mother was blond; Edric Storm has big ears typical for Estermonts, like his mother; Baelor (or maybe his brother Maekar) Targaryen had dark hair of his Dornish mother; Daeron son of Maekar and nephew of Baelor had sandy brown hair; not all Targaryen children of Mariah Martell had dark hair, because her grandmother was Daenerys Targaryen, thus Mariah was also a carrier of "light-color" genes.

So unless one of Elia's grandparents was blond, the fact that Young Griff has light hair, proves that he is a fake, and not son of neither Elia Martell nor Lyanna Stark. I think that he is a child from female line of Blackfyres. That will explain why Varys came from Essos to 7K, and infiltrated court of Aerys II, why Illyrio watched for years Viserys and Daenerys, why Varys gave fAegon to JonCon, and why they are currently with Golden Company, that was founded by Aegor Bittersteel Blackfyre. Varys' goal is to assure that Young Griff / Aegon Blackfyre will become King of 7K.

I've said in the OP Aegon thinks he's the true son of Rhaegar and Elia. Connington was most likely lied to by Varys about the truth of this Aegon. The fact Ned stumbled across Lyanna can't get thrown out the window. Someone had to tell me to head in that direction. Please note that by the time ADWD starts it's the year 300 the "real Aegon" would be 18/19 not 15/16 which Tyrion puts his age at drastic difference between the two.

Can we agree the story centralized around  Ned's kids? And we see a few times where Robb and Jon are put in a the same position as Ned. Robb not accepted his marriage with the Freys cost him his life. If Ned didn't marry Cat he too would be dead. The baby swap between Ned and Ashara parallels that of Jon and Gilly (both a baby with Dayne blood)

 Also when Varys performs the most epic move that being a double homicide of pycelle and Kevin Lannister. He tells Kevin Aegon is alive. Why lie to a dying man?

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

Tyrion observes that Griff's eyes are dark blue but take on different qualities depending on the light source.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

The bacon turned crisp, the biscuits golden brown. Young Griff stumbled up onto deck yawning. "Good morrow, all." The lad was shorter than Duck, but his lanky build suggested that he had not yet come into his full growth. This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them. Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman's.

 

Tyrion also says that dying his hair blue helps emphasize the blue in his eyes:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

The dwarf ignored him. "The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good. And the tale of how you color it in honor of your dead Tyroshi mother was so touching it almost made me cry. Still, a curious man might wonder why some sellsword's whelp would need a soiled septa to instruct him in the Faith, or a chainless maester to tutor him in history and tongues. And a clever man might question why your father would engage a hedge knight to train you in arms instead of simply sending you off to apprentice with one of the free companies. It is almost as if someone wanted to keep you hidden whilst still preparing you for … what? Now, there's a puzzlement, but I'm sure that in time it will come to me. I must admit, you have noble features for a dead boy."

So the blue hair makes his eyes seem more blue than purple.  Young Griff has indigo eyes like Rhaegar.

His eyes don't actually change color but are affected by the light source and disguise. 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Tyrion observes that Griff's eyes are dark blue but take on different qualities depending on the light source.

Tyrion also says that dying his hair blue helps emphasize the blue in his eyes:

So the blue hair makes his eyes seem more blue than purple.  Young Griff has indigo eyes like Rhaegar.

His eyes don't actually change color but are affected by the light source and disguise. 

Fair but they fact they do "change" cant be throw out entirely...

FOR ANYONE WHO SAYS NED REFERS TO JON AS HIS BLOOD AND NOT SON... BRAN I AGOT (so the first chapter in the entire series) 

Jory rode up beside them. “Trouble, my lord?”

“Beyond a doubt,” his lord father said. “Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.” 

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son.

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Both Ned and Young Griff eye color changes. Lyanna has the same blood as Ned thus this trait was passed to Aegon.

 

Forgive me if I'm not impressed, then. That is... nothing. Literally, nothing. They don't even have the same eye-colour. 

Besides, that's not what I meant. If we are in agreement that Ned promised to look out Lyanna's kid - can you point to evidence that links Ned to Young Griff? As in, how has he looked out for him? How did YG end up with JC and part of Varys's restoration plot? Can you point me to a moment where that could be implied in the text?

I'm not trying to catch you out or be mean -- I am genuinely curious. I am willing to entertain the R+L=A theory but only if there can some more solid than their eyes "changing colour" (despite them not even being the same colour) or colour blue.

Quote

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son.

Well, I'm not one of those people who would say Ned never refers to Jon as his son so that nothing to me, either.

Still, after fourteen years of raising Jon alongside Robb, he is his son. Just as Ned wouldn't stop being Jon's father because of who his biological parents might be.

[Megorova]

50 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Fair but they fact they do "change" cant be throw out entirely...

Jon's dark grey eyes also change to black.

51 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

FOR ANYONE WHO SAYS NED REFERS TO JON AS HIS BLOOD AND NOT SON... BRAN I AGOT (so the first chapter in the entire series) 

Jory rode up beside them. “Trouble, my lord?”

“Beyond a doubt,” his lord father said. “Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.” 

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son.

Out loud he had to be careful, of what he was saying in regards to Jon. But when he was thinking about him, he didn't called him son in his thoughts. For example:

"Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" <- he didn't counted Jon amongst his children.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Fair but they fact they do "change" cant be throw out entirely...

Not that it matters, though, because Ned's eyes don't change colour, and even if they did, you'd first have to prove that Lyanna's did.

Quote

FOR ANYONE WHO SAYS NED REFERS TO JON AS HIS BLOOD AND NOT SON... BRAN I AGOT (so the first chapter in the entire series) 

Jory rode up beside them. “Trouble, my lord?”

“Beyond a doubt,” his lord father said. “Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.” 

He blatantly refers to Jon as his son.

You're mixing apples and pears here. Ned refers to Jon as "my blood" that one moment when he gets enraged by Cat's prying, and it is a peculiar thing to say about one's own child because the term "son"/"child" jump to a parent's mind way more naturally. And of course Ned calls Jon "son" in front of other people - he claims to other people that Jon is his son, so he must be using the word now and then. Where he doesn't call Jon son, though, is in his inner monologue. Not once. And when Cersei asks him if he loves his children, he doesn't include Jon among his children:

“My son Bran …”
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. “He saw us. You love your children, do you not?”
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. “With all my heart.”
“No less do I love mine.”
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

ETA: Ninjaed.