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R+L=A


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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I haven't seen this much fantasizing since Donny Osmond hit the cover of teen magazine in 1967.  Really Ygrain, the thorns beneath the crown represent the troubles in their relationship?  How about the thorns beneath represent the iron throne and king Aerys.  That he was behind giving the crown to Lyanna; the reason why Rhaegar gives it to her instead of his wife from the the end of his lance

Have you ever seen Ivanhoe? I'm thinking of the 1982 television one with Anthony Andrews because it's the one I'm familiar with.

Ivanhoe enters the tournament as a Mystery Knight under an assumed name. When he wins the first day, Prince John awards him a crown to present to the day's queen. The prince asks Ivanhoe to present his lance and the prince slips the crown onto the end of the lance and makes a suggestion for an appropriate recipient. Ivanhoe then rides right past that lady and awards the crown to his fiancee by lowering his lance enough for her to take the crown off the end of it.

I think that was the standard way of doing these things.

Also, there's definitely the phallic thing that Ygrain mentioned.

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16 hours ago, Faera said:

Here we come to the crux of this argument: why do you think Lyanna was his mother and not Elia?

RE: Guessing Jon's age wrong:

 

I think Lyanna is his mother due to his hair being blue and the events surrounded by TOJ. Lyanna is the only woman in the series to be heavily associated with the color blue. He died his hair blue for his dead Tyroshi mother. As you pointed out Tyrion guessed Jon age wrong but were not even entirely sure if Jon is truly that age. Jon is most likely 15/16 by the time of ADWD (this is if you believe my N+A=J) So he very well could have been 14 at that point... Back to the TOJ, we know after the events there that Ned went to starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne. It is here where Ned (with baby Aegon) does the baby swap. Robert is on a mission to kill every Targaryen. Lyanna just happened to give birth to a replica of Rhaegar. Ned trust Ashara to keep the babe safe and look after him. So he took Jon Ashara took Aegon and fled. This has been mentioned by Cercei-

“Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?

Varys telling Kevan that Aegon is alive wasnt a lie hes referring to this Aegon. Someone had to tell Ned to travel near the mountains of Dorne to find Lyanna. I find it very hard to believe that Ned just wandered around aimlessly and stumbled upon her. He was told where to look. Either by Varys or Pycelle, most likely Varys. Jon too did a baby swap; father like son. Both switched a baby and a Dayne baby at that (Mance is Arthur Dayne imo) We also know that House Dayne loved Ned so much they willingly call their current lord after him. Ned tells this to Arya in ASOS. He even tells her how he wanted to talk to him in KL when he was squiring for Dondarrion (who happens to be betrothed to Ashara's sister) but was in such a state of shock of seeing him he didnt know what to say.  

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17 hours ago, Ygrain said:

AGOT:

The boy looked at him suspiciously. “Is this some kind of trick? I see you. Tyrion Lannister.”
Tyrion sighed. “You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?”
“Fourteen,” the boy said.

Actually, if jon was indeed born in the ToJ he is younger than what he thinks (as in younger than robb if I am not mistaken). This can be seen as another hint about R+L=J

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20 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

I think Lyanna is his mother due to his hair being blue and the events surrounded by TOJ. Lyanna is the only woman in the series to be heavily associated with the color blue. He died his hair blue for his dead Tyroshi mother. As you pointed out Tyrion guessed Jon age wrong but were not even entirely sure if Jon is truly that age. Jon is most likely 15/16 by the time of ADWD (this is if you believe my N+A=J) So he very well could have been 14 at that point... Back to the TOJ, we know after the events there that Ned went to starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne. It is here where Ned (with baby Aegon) does the baby swap. Robert is on a mission to kill every Targaryen. Lyanna just happened to give birth to a replica of Rhaegar. Ned trust Ashara to keep the babe safe and look after him. So he took Jon Ashara took Aegon and fled. This has been mentioned by Cercei-

“Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?

Varys telling Kevan that Aegon is alive wasnt a lie hes referring to this Aegon. Someone had to tell Ned to travel near the mountains of Dorne to find Lyanna. I find it very hard to believe that Ned just wandered around aimlessly and stumbled upon her. He was told where to look. Either by Varys or Pycelle, most likely Varys. Jon too did a baby swap; father like son. Both switched a baby and a Dayne baby at that (Mance is Arthur Dayne imo) We also know that House Dayne loved Ned so much they willingly call their current lord after him. Ned tells this to Arya in ASOS. He even tells her how he wanted to talk to him in KL when he was squiring for Dondarrion (who happens to be betrothed to Ashara's sister) but was in such a state of shock of seeing him he didnt know what to say.  

Besides the blue hair there is also de red wolves in jon con chapters. However both things are explained in the text and for the characters they don t have any relation to rhaegar or lyanna. In addition, if Aegon seems to be 18 then he is almost 2 years too old to be Lyanna's son.

Another problem is why would varys want Aegon on the throne? If Lyanna and rhaegar aren t married then Aegon is a bastard and danny is the heir. Then why would he never talk about Lyanna with Ned? Hell Ned should be manipulated to fight for Lyanna's son! Even more so after varys makes him see robert doesn t care about being king and joffrei is a monster...

And why varys create an unbelivable lie about having switched Aegon with another baby instead of the believable lie that Aegon is Lyanna's son and rhaegar hid him before going to war? And why doesn t Ned ever think about ashara and what he made her do?

There are simply too many problems with the theory!

In adition mance can t be arthur dayne because mance was raised in the Wall...

 

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26 minutes ago, divica said:

Besides the blue hair there is also de red wolves in jon con chapters. However both things are explained in the text and for the characters they don t have any relation to rhaegar or lyanna. In addition, if Aegon seems to be 18 then he is almost 2 years too old to be Lyanna's son.

Another problem is why would varys want Aegon on the throne? If Lyanna and rhaegar aren t married then Aegon is a bastard and danny is the heir. Then why would he never talk about Lyanna with Ned? Hell Ned should be manipulated to fight for Lyanna's son! Even more so after varys makes him see robert doesn t care about being king and joffrei is a monster...

And why varys create an unbelivable lie about having switched Aegon with another baby instead of the believable lie that Aegon is Lyanna's son and rhaegar hid him before going to war? And why doesn t Ned ever think about ashara and what he made her do?

There are simply too many problems with the theory!

In adition mance can t be arthur dayne because mance was raised in the Wall...

 

Firstly Mance wasnt raised at the wall. That was a lie created by Oswell (Qhorin Halfhand) and Mance himself (Ser Arthur) Gerold Hightower (Tormund) is most likely in on it as well. According to Mance he was born among the wildlings and was taken in by the NW as a child after a group of raiders he was with were put to the sword. His name even comes from this event. Now according to Osha, Mance has never seen a winter and was not born amongst the free folk. Now how does she know? Well she can't know for certain but imagine your a person from Montana and you told everyone around your town your from California. Now the next person you tell happens to be from California he/she will probably know your lying. Whats also very important is that She says he's never seen a winter. If he was born among the wildlins and raised by the NW he would have seen a winter or 2 or 3. Osha even goes on to say he's just "another black crow who flew down from the shadow tower" Mance on many occasions has said "the crow's a tricky bird"...

Secondly the TOJ happened in 284 and the current year is 300 so Aegon is 16 not 18... As for why Varys does what he does; well for starters the least amount of people who know about Aegon the better. He probably lied to Connington telling him hes the true son of Rhaegar and Elia. He also believes Aegon would be a good king who is just and wise. Gentle but fair and serves for the people and not for himself. 

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20 hours ago, Faera said:

 I double checked the appendix of ADWD and it states that Young Griff is 'a lad of eighteen years'. That makes him the right age for Elia's son, Aegon.

 

13 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Firstly Mance wasnt raised at the wall. That was a lie created by Oswell (Qhorin Halfhand) and Mance himself (Ser Arthur) Gerold Hightower (Tormund) is most likely in on it as well. According to Mance he was born among the wildlings and was taken in by the NW as a child after a group of raiders he was with were put to the sword. His name even comes from this event. Now according to Osha, Mance has never seen a winter and was not born amongst the free folk. Now how does she know? Well she can't know for certain but imagine your a person from Montana and you told everyone around your town your from California. Now the next person you tell happens to be from California he/she will probably know your lying. Whats also very important is that She says he's never seen a winter. If he was born among the wildlins and raised by the NW he would have seen a winter or 2 or 3. Osha even goes on to say he's just "another black crow who flew down from the shadow tower" Mance on many occasions has said "the crow's a tricky bird"...

Secondly the TOJ happened in 284 and the current year is 300 so Aegon is 16 not 18... As for why Varys does what he does; well for starters the least amount of people who know about Aegon the better. He probably lied to Connington telling him hes the true son of Rhaegar and Elia. He also believes Aegon would be a good king who is just and wise. Gentle but fair and serves for the people and not for himself. 

I don t know what to say. Are you kidding or being serious? I will talk about what I think might be serious.

Osha and other random wildlings obviously don t know mance's life history. So they don t know he was born among the wildlings nor that he was raised at the Wall. She thinks he is a Southern that joined the NW and then defected to the Wildlings...

Then the true Aegon would be 18. If fAegon wants to be Aegon he needs to look 18 and that is 2 years older than what he should be to be born at the ToJ. The other arguments could be used for danny as well. She was a baby after all... And you ignored most of the problems I stated earlier about fAegon being Lyanna's son...

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49 minutes ago, divica said:

 

I don t know what to say. Are you kidding or being serious? I will talk about what I think might be serious.

Osha and other random wildlings obviously don t know mance's life history. So they don t know he was born among the wildlings nor that he was raised at the Wall. She thinks he is a Southern that joined the NW and then defected to the Wildlings...

Then the true Aegon would be 18. If fAegon wants to be Aegon he needs to look 18 and that is 2 years older than what he should be to be born at the ToJ. The other arguments could be used for danny as well. She was a baby after all... And you ignored most of the problems I stated earlier about fAegon being Lyanna's son...

No i didnt. read my OP. Aegon thinks his the true son of Rhaegar and Elia not Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

 

@divicaIt may say he's a lad of 18 years doesn't mean its true. George has to withhold certain information from the reader to keep us interested and engaged. If you have read TWOIAF book you will notice that the maesters are constantly contradicting themselves as it pertains to the Andals because they are the decendents of them and are lying pieces of shit...

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16 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Have you ever seen Ivanhoe? I'm thinking of the 1982 television one with Anthony Andrews because it's the one I'm familiar with.

Ivanhoe enters the tournament as a Mystery Knight under an assumed name. When he wins the first day, Prince John awards him a crown to present to the day's queen. The prince asks Ivanhoe to present his lance and the prince slips the crown onto the end of the lance and makes a suggestion for an appropriate recipient. Ivanhoe then rides right past that lady and awards the crown to his fiancee by lowering his lance enough for her to take the crown off the end of it.

I think that was the standard way of doing these things.

Also, there's definitely the phallic thing that Ygrain mentioned.

I'll bypass the phallic symbolism and go straight for the thorns.  If this is the meaning the gesture of tipping the lance, nobody is smiling about it. When Ned says there are thorns hidden within the crown, he is referring to the Iron Throne; the other object described as cruel and cutting, clawing and scratching.  This could even describe King Aerys physically with hands like claws.  This tells me that the crown was awarded because Aerys willed it so and there is no end to his animosity towards the Starks as we see afterwards.  Lyanna's wolf blood gets her into trouble.  First she reminds Aerys that the Starks defend their bannermen and then the KoLT tells everybody that Aerys' liege lords have no honor under the aegis of the old gods.  Aerys is already paranoid that Rhaegar is conspiring to remove him; the reason he shows up at the tourney in the first place.  The North might well prefer their own king. It seems more likely to me that if anyone took Lyanna; it was Aerys or his supporters.

Why is it necessary that Jon have both Stark and Targ blood?  This is one of the underlying assumptions for RLJ.        

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57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why is it necessary that Jon have both Stark and Targ blood?  This is one of the underlying assumptions for RLJ

Please, don't put words into other people's mouths. Figuring out RLJ is NOT based on assuming bloodlines but on following Ned's thoughts about Lyanna, blue roses and the like. Jon having both Stark and Targ blood is an outcome, not a premise.

As to why it might be important... ever heard about this "song of ice, as in, Stark, and fire, as in, Targaryen"?

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

When Ned says there are thorns hidden within the crown, he is referring to the Iron Throne; the other object described as cruel and cutting, clawing and scratching

Funny that you should claim so - there is not a single instance of the throne described as clawing or scratching, not even in Cersei's nightmare, where it bites, gnaws, tears and slices. The one occasion where "claw" is mentioned in connection with the throne is when it is likened to a beast - "the Iron Throne crouched like some great black beast, its barbs and claws and blades half-shrouded in shadow", and this imagery is pretty consistent with that of Cersei's nightmare, where the throne behaves like some monster. In most isntances, though, people are just normally cut by the blades when they are not careful, like Joffrey or Aerys.

So, a completely different word choice and imagery for the crown and the throne, not to mention that the crown's thorns are hidden, whereas the blades are very obvious.

 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll bypass the phallic symbolism and go straight for the thorns.  If this is the meaning the gesture of tipping the lance, nobody is smiling about it.

I only brought up Ivanhoe to counter your seeming idea that Rhaegar carrying the flowers to Lyanna on the lance somehow meant it was a hostile gesture, or a warning gesture or something. I don't believe that it was such a gesture; I think it's common in literature about knightly tournament adventures, of which Ivanhoe is a classic, almost a prototype.

Although, I would also argue that Rhaegar dropping the flowers into Lyanna's lap only enhances the phallic symbolism; more specifically, sexual intercourse symbolism, which wasn't terribly subtle. That's probably why nobody was smiling about it.

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42 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I only brought up Ivanhoe to counter your seeming idea that Rhaegar carrying the flowers to Lyanna on the lance somehow meant it was a hostile gesture, or a warning gesture or something. I don't believe that it was such a gesture; I think it's common in literature about knightly tournament adventures, of which Ivanhoe is a classic, almost a prototype.

Although, I would also argue that Rhaegar dropping the flowers into Lyanna's lap only enhances the phallic symbolism; more specifically, sexual intercourse symbolism, which wasn't terribly subtle. That's probably why nobody was smiling about it.

It was certainly an insult to Elia.  That's when the smiles died and I think that was deliberate and calculated by Aerys to compromise Rhaeger.  Barristan Selmy tells Dany that he doesn't think it was ever in Rhaegar to be happy and further that he didn't know what was in Rhaegar's mind.  So what does that say about Rhaegar running off for love or Selmy's assessment that Rhaegar loved his lady?  Barristan was far too self-absorbed at the tourney with his own feelings about Ashara to see the political implications.  As far as he's concerned Ashara should have been crowned QLAB and because she wasn't; she was dishonored by Lyanna Stark.  Ashara has no such feelings since he also says she turned to Stark.    This is an instance where Martin uses Selmy as an unreliable narrator.

  

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On 11/22/2017 at 10:24 AM, Ser Insight said:

At this point we know that Ned is on the way to Riverrun with Ashara to get his father's blessing to marry her, but upon hearing the news of his father/brother/sister he now changes course to make his way north to Winterfell. Here is where it gets very interesting.

This is so hilariously bad I genuinely laughed.

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

she was dishonored by Lyanna Stark

How did Lyanna dishonor Ashara by being the object of Rhaegar's choice?

BTW, I'm still waiting for your explanation what you perceive as harlequinesque about RLJ.

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21 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I think Lyanna is his mother due to his hair being blue and the events surrounded by TOJ. Lyanna is the only woman in the series to be heavily associated with the color blue.

I’ll focus on the colour since it is something we haven't really covered yet. It is essentially the argument presented by ‘The Order of the Green Hand’ in their videos. When I first watched it, I went back to the text to really think about whether the colour of Young Griff’s hair could be an allusion to Lyanna Stark.

This apparent Lyanna-association with Young Griff appears to come from a very particular interpretation of an early exchange between Tyrion and Young Griff where he states that he dyes his hair in memory of his late mother and that because of that blue might genuinely be significant to him. However, looking at the text again, it appears to be Tyrion who is fixated on the colour blue rather than Young Griff:

Quote

 

If he [Griff] was happy to have Duck and Haldon back again, he hid it well, but he did not trouble to conceal his displeasure at the sight of Tyrion. “A dwarf? What’s this?”

"I know, you were hoping for a wheel of cheese." Tyrion turned to Young Griff and gave the lad his most disarming smile. "Blue hair may serve you well in Tyrosh, but in Westeros children will throw stones at you and girls will laugh in your face."

The lad was taken aback. "My mother was a lady of Tyrosh. I dye my hair in memory of her." – ADwD, Tyrion III

 

Here, Young Griff does not specifically associate the colour blue with his mother but the cultural act of dying his hair. He remarks that his mother was "a lady of Tyrosh" and as the WoIaF book remarks, the development of various dye colours and dying their hair unnatural colours is a huge part of Tyroshi culture. We also already have an example of a Tyroshi, Daario Naharis, who also colours his three-pronged beard blue, “the same colour as his eyes” (ASoS, Daenerys IV). However, I have my doubts that Tyroshi culture of dying one’s hair has any special significance to Young Griff either. Rather, he is simply reciting a cover story; he and Griff have not revealed themselves as Aegon and Jon Connington yet.

This interpretation that Young Griff’s explanation is nothing more than a cover story is reinforced later when Tyrion confronts them about who they really are. He remarks that if anything happens to Young Griff “all those years of feverish plotting" by Illyrio (the cheesemonger) and Varys (the eunuch) would be for nought (ADwD, Tyrion V), as it is clear a lot of effort has gone into this boy’s upkeep. This is where Tyrion launches into his deductions:

Quote

 

The boy looked to Griff. "He knows who I am."

If I did not know before, I would now. By then the Shy Maid was well downstream of the Bridge of Dream. All that remained was a dwindling light astern, and soon enough that would be gone as well. "You're Young Griff, son of Griff the sellsword," said Tyrion. "Or perhaps you are the Warrior in mortal guise. Let me take a closer look." He held up his torch, so that the light washed over Young Griff's face.

"Leave off," Griff commanded, "or you will wish you had."

The dwarf ignored him. " The blue hair makes your eyes seem blue, that's good. And the tale of how you color it in honor of your dead Tyroshi mother was so touching it almost made me cry. Still, a curious man might wonder why some sellsword's whelp would need a soiled septa to instruct him in the Faith, or a chainless maester to tutor him in history and tongues. And a clever man might question why your father would engage a hedge knight to train you in arms instead of simply sending you off to apprentice with one of the free companies. It is almost as if someone wanted to keep you hidden whilst still preparing you for … what? Now, there's a puzzlement, but I'm sure that in time it will come to me. I must admit, you have noble features for a dead boy." – ADwD, Tyrion V

 

 

Once again it seems that Tyrion is the fixating on the blue dye. He was clearly not convinced by Young Griff’s earlier excuse as to why he dyes his hair and calls him out on it while also making special note that the colour of the dye brings out the blue in the boy’s eyes. The colour of Young Griff’s eyes seems to be something Tyrion pondered since the previous chapter:

Quote

This beardless boy could have any maiden in the Seven Kingdoms, blue hair or no. Those eyes of his would melt them. Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. – ADwD, Tyrion IV

2

In both passages, we have Young Griff’s blue hair connected to the blue of his eyes. It subtly alluded to in the latter and especially prominent in the former as it gets to the heart of Tyrion’s deductions as to the real reason why the boy has coloured his hair. It is a purely practical reason for him colouring his hair dark blue – to bring out the blue in his eyes.

As a side note, if you wish to go down the “mummer’s dragon” route one could associate this emphasising of Aegon’s blue-eyes with Illyrio's dead wife, Serra:

Quote

Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra." – ADwD, Tyrion II

Personally, I think this is a stretch, given Connington himself has blue eyes and has also dyed his hair (ADwD, Tyrion IV), at least it would be comparing like for like rather than relating the colour of a boy’s dye job to Lyanna Stark.

Going back to the disguises, we finally get a glimpse beneath the masks later when we get Jon Connington’s first chapter of ADwD. He walks in after Young Griff has just recoloured his hair.

Quote

 

The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. "You look a proper prince," he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he could see you."

Young Griff ran his fingers through his hair. "I am sick of this blue dye. We should have washed it out."

"Soon enough." Griff would be glad to go back to his own true colors too, though his once red hair had gone to grey. He clapped the lad on the shoulder. "Shall we go? Your army awaits your coming." – ADwD, The Lost Lord

 

Again, as far as I can tell the colour blue is serving a practical purpose and, more significantly, we see that Young Griff has no sentimental attachment to the dying of his hair nor the colour blue – he is, in fact, sick of it. If the colour blue really was important to him and symbolic of his character, why not have him also wear something else blue alongside the overt red and black Targaryen colours or the rubies associated with Rhaegar’s armour? Like… a blue flower, maybe? For this reason, I doubt the colour blue is all that significant to Aegon nor does it genuinely have anything to do with his mother. Ultimately, even he knows that blue dye is a means to an end; a disguise, a glamour, and a mummery he is looking forward to dropping.

The association with ‘the colour blue’ does not wholly work as a textual allusion, either. The reason I underlined flower above is that I would disagree that Lyanna Stark is associated with the colour blue by itself. It is winter roses that have become symbolic of her (and arguably “stolen” daughters of Winterfell). One of the first things we learn about her from Ned Stark is that she was “fond of flowers” (AGoT, Eddard I). He recalls her being “in a room that smelled of blood and roses” when he makes her promise to her and she is clutching dead rose petals (AGoT, Eddard I) and then later during his fever dream sees “A storm of rose petals… across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death” (AGoT, Eddard X). The allusion is floral/roses rather than colour based and the "blue as the eyes of death" makes one think of the blue star eyes the Wights.

Winter roses are described as “pale blue” (as well as “blue as frost”) in Eddard’s thoughts (AGoT, Eddard XII, XV) and even in Ygritte’s telling of Bael the Bard to Jon (ACoK, Jon VI) – there is an association is the colour of frost and ice.  If we try to line this up with Aegon’s hair dye, the hue does not match. Aegon’s dyed hair is described as “a shock of dark blue" (ADwD, Tyrion III) and “a deep, dark blue” (ADwD, The Lost Lord). So, it lacks a distinct textual echo. When I hear that Aegon's colour is blue - a dark blue - I do not think of frost, ice, winter roses and certainly not Lyanna. Based on all of this, it is hard for me to really accept that there is a distinct and meaningful parallel between Lyanna and Aegon simply based on ‘the colour blue’. 

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5 hours ago, Faera said:

Winter roses are described as “pale blue” (as well as “blue as frost”) in Eddard’s thoughts (AGoT, Eddard XII, XV) and even in Ygritte’s telling of Bael the Bard to Jon (ACoK, Jon VI) – there is an association is the colour of frost and ice.  If we try to line this up with Aegon’s hair dye, the hue does not match. Aegon’s dyed hair is described as “a shock of dark blue" (ADwD, Tyrion III) and “a deep, dark blue” (ADwD, The Lost Lord). So, it lacks a distinct textual echo. When I hear that Aegon's colour is blue - a dark blue - I do not think of frost, ice, winter roses and certainly not Lyanna. Based on all of this, it is hard for me to really accept that there is a distinct and meaningful parallel between Lyanna and Aegon simply based on ‘the colour blue’.

Thanks for taking a shot at this. The idea is plain ridiculous and shows how people are affected by things other than the books. In fanart, Lyanna is often depicted as wearing a blue or blue-grey dress, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/d/d1/Rhaeg_lyanna-winterfelll.jpghttps://aidinera.deviantart.com/art/Rhaegar-and-Lyanna-356229959https://gudulett-e.deviantart.com/art/Lyanna-Rhaegar-455360588, but the text doesn't state anything like that, ever. The only instance Lyanna's clothes are mentioned, the colour is white. It is not colour blue itself that she is associated with but blue winter roses.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Faera said:

I’ll focus on the colour since it is something we haven't really covered yet. It is essentially the argument presented by ‘The Order of the Green Hand’ in their videos. When I first watched it, I went back to the text to really think about whether the colour of Young Griff’s hair could be an allusion to Lyanna Stark.

This apparent Lyanna-association with Young Griff appears to come from a very particular interpretation of an early exchange between Tyrion and Young Griff where he states that he dyes his hair in memory of his late mother and that because of that blue might genuinely be significant to him. However, looking at the text again, it appears to be Tyrion who is fixated on the colour blue rather than Young Griff:

Here, Young Griff does not specifically associate the colour blue with his mother but the cultural act of dying his hair. He remarks that his mother was "a lady of Tyrosh" and as the WoIaF book remarks, the development of various dye colours and dying their hair unnatural colours is a huge part of Tyroshi culture. We also already have an example of a Tyroshi, Daario Naharis, who also colours his three-pronged beard blue, “the same colour as his eyes” (ASoS, Daenerys IV). However, I have my doubts that Tyroshi culture of dying one’s hair has any special significance to Young Griff either. Rather, he is simply reciting a cover story; he and Griff have not revealed themselves as Aegon and Jon Connington yet.

This interpretation that Young Griff’s explanation is nothing more than a cover story is reinforced later when Tyrion confronts them about who they really are. He remarks that if anything happens to Young Griff “all those years of feverish plotting" by Illyrio (the cheesemonger) and Varys (the eunuch) would be for nought (ADwD, Tyrion V), as it is clear a lot of effort has gone into this boy’s upkeep. This is where Tyrion launches into his deductions:

Once again it seems that Tyrion is the fixating on the blue dye. He was clearly not convinced by Young Griff’s earlier excuse as to why he dyes his hair and calls him out on it while also making special note that the colour of the dye brings out the blue in the boy’s eyes. The colour of Young Griff’s eyes seems to be something Tyrion pondered since the previous chapter:

In both passages, we have Young Griff’s blue hair connected to the blue of his eyes. It subtly alluded to in the latter and especially prominent in the former as it gets to the heart of Tyrion’s deductions as to the real reason why the boy has coloured his hair. It is a purely practical reason for him colouring his hair dark blue – to bring out the blue in his eyes.

As a side note, if you wish to go down the “mummer’s dragon” route one could associate this emphasising of Aegon’s blue-eyes with Illyrio's dead wife, Serra:

Personally, I think this is a stretch, given Connington himself has blue eyes and has also dyed his hair (ADwD, Tyrion IV), at least it would be comparing like for like rather than relating the colour of a boy’s dye job to Lyanna Stark.

Going back to the disguises, we finally get a glimpse beneath the masks later when we get Jon Connington’s first chapter of ADwD. He walks in after Young Griff has just recoloured his hair.

Again, as far as I can tell the colour blue is serving a practical purpose and, more significantly, we see that Young Griff has no sentimental attachment to the dying of his hair nor the colour blue – he is, in fact, sick of it. If the colour blue really was important to him and symbolic of his character, why not have him also wear something else blue alongside the overt red and black Targaryen colours or the rubies associated with Rhaegar’s armour? Like… a blue flower, maybe? For this reason, I doubt the colour blue is all that significant to Aegon nor does it genuinely have anything to do with his mother. Ultimately, even he knows that blue dye is a means to an end; a disguise, a glamour, and a mummery he is looking forward to dropping.

The association with ‘the colour blue’ does not wholly work as a textual allusion, either. The reason I underlined flower above is that I would disagree that Lyanna Stark is associated with the colour blue by itself. It is winter roses that have become symbolic of her (and arguably “stolen” daughters of Winterfell). One of the first things we learn about her from Ned Stark is that she was “fond of flowers” (AGoT, Eddard I). He recalls her being “in a room that smelled of blood and roses” when he makes her promise to her and she is clutching dead rose petals (AGoT, Eddard I) and then later during his fever dream sees “A storm of rose petals… across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death” (AGoT, Eddard X). The allusion is floral/roses rather than colour based and the "blue as the eyes of death" makes one think of the blue star eyes the Wights.

Winter roses are described as “pale blue” (as well as “blue as frost”) in Eddard’s thoughts (AGoT, Eddard XII, XV) and even in Ygritte’s telling of Bael the Bard to Jon (ACoK, Jon VI) – there is an association is the colour of frost and ice.  If we try to line this up with Aegon’s hair dye, the hue does not match. Aegon’s dyed hair is described as “a shock of dark blue" (ADwD, Tyrion III) and “a deep, dark blue” (ADwD, The Lost Lord). So, it lacks a distinct textual echo. When I hear that Aegon's colour is blue - a dark blue - I do not think of frost, ice, winter roses and certainly not Lyanna. Based on all of this, it is hard for me to really accept that there is a distinct and meaningful parallel between Lyanna and Aegon simply based on ‘the colour blue’. 

Wow, excellent analysis. I think you nailed it.

 

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll bypass the phallic symbolism and go straight for the thorns.  If this is the meaning the gesture of tipping the lance, nobody is smiling about it. When Ned says there are thorns hidden within the crown, he is referring to the Iron Throne; the other object described as cruel and cutting, clawing and scratching.  This could even describe King Aerys physically with hands like claws.  This tells me that the crown was awarded because Aerys willed it so and there is no end to his animosity towards the Starks as we see afterwards.  Lyanna's wolf blood gets her into trouble.  First she reminds Aerys that the Starks defend their bannermen and then the KoLT tells everybody that Aerys' liege lords have no honor under the aegis of the old gods.  Aerys is already paranoid that Rhaegar is conspiring to remove him; the reason he shows up at the tourney in the first place.  The North might well prefer their own king. It seems more likely to me that if anyone took Lyanna; it was Aerys or his supporters.

       

Aerys sent Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but all Rhaegar could find was the shield. If we are to assume that Lyanna was the KotLT, then mayhaps Rhaegar was attempting to "unmask" her to Aerys by declaring her the QoLaB -- maybe an attempt at some sort of rapprochement with his father, or at least to allay the suspicions that Aerys was having over Rhaegar in an attempt to buy some time. A short time later, and probably spurred by the continued whisperings of Varys, Aerys would order both Lyanna and Rhaegar kidnapped...?

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On 12/28/2017 at 7:49 AM, Ser Insight said:

I think Lyanna is his mother due to his hair being blue and the events surrounded by TOJ. Lyanna is the only woman in the series to be heavily associated with the color blue. He died his hair blue for his dead Tyroshi mother. As you pointed out Tyrion guessed Jon age wrong but were not even entirely sure if Jon is truly that age. Jon is most likely 15/16 by the time of ADWD (this is if you believe my N+A=J) So he very well could have been 14 at that point... Back to the TOJ, we know after the events there that Ned went to starfall to return Dawn to House Dayne. It is here where Ned (with baby Aegon) does the baby swap. Robert is on a mission to kill every Targaryen. Lyanna just happened to give birth to a replica of Rhaegar. Ned trust Ashara to keep the babe safe and look after him. So he took Jon Ashara took Aegon and fled. This has been mentioned by Cercei-

“Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?

Varys telling Kevan that Aegon is alive wasnt a lie hes referring to this Aegon. Someone had to tell Ned to travel near the mountains of Dorne to find Lyanna. I find it very hard to believe that Ned just wandered around aimlessly and stumbled upon her. He was told where to look. Either by Varys or Pycelle, most likely Varys. Jon too did a baby swap; father like son. Both switched a baby and a Dayne baby at that (Mance is Arthur Dayne imo) We also know that House Dayne loved Ned so much they willingly call their current lord after him. Ned tells this to Arya in ASOS. He even tells her how he wanted to talk to him in KL when he was squiring for Dondarrion (who happens to be betrothed to Ashara's sister) but was in such a state of shock of seeing him he didnt know what to say.  

Incorrect. Brienne is associated with the color blue, in fact, considerable more so than Lyanna.

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43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Aerys sent Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but all Rhaegar could find was the shield. If we are to assume that Lyanna was the KotLT, then mayhaps Rhaegar was attempting to "unmask" her to Aerys by declaring her the QoLaB -- maybe an attempt at some sort of rapprochement with his father, or at least to allay the suspicions that Aerys was having over Rhaegar in an attempt to buy some time. A short time later, and probably spurred by the continued whisperings of Varys, Aerys would order both Lyanna and Rhaegar kidnapped...?

My point is that there is too much emphasis placed on the sexual symbolism of Rhaegar's enormous lance.  This has become the overriding story of the tournament exclusive to anything else.  It's a bit of leap to say that because Rhaegar wasn't at KL when Brandon arrived that he was kidnapped also.  It's not an assumption that I would make.  We know he wasn't there, we don't where he was, what the message said or who sent it.  But we're going to make the leap that because Lyanna disappeared at some point and that Rhaegar was also unaccounted for; they must have disappeared together.  We don't know that this is true at all.  But the romance story gets Jon and Dany where people want them to go.  Are any of the original assumption underpinning RLJ still true?  Is the story still going in the direction people thought it would so many years ago?

Aerys was aware of a conspiracy at the tournament.  His behavior, motivations and action should be considered. I don't think it's a coincidence that Lyanna disappears; then Brandon and Rickard et al are murdered by Aerys.  Followed by the demand for Ned and Robert.  This is an attempt to eliminate House Stark.  Why?  Kevan Lannister tells us who was involved and what was at stake in the epilogue of DwD.

Aerys refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar,  Aerys took Tywin's heir away from him and probably took advantage of his wife.  Aerys had to go and then Rhaegar, Elia and their children.  Lyanna had to die because if she would have survived; she would have married Robert instead of Cersei.  Kevan tells us that if Rhaegar gone down the path - the road not taken (at Duskendale); then war would have been avoided and Cersei would have married Rhaegar.

The only other place where we see a rose with thorns:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VIII

In the dawn light, the army of Lord Tywin Lannister unfolded like an iron rose, thorns gleaming.

 

Selmy says that he didn't think it was in Rhaegar to be happy and Ned sees Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood.  I doubt either of them would throw over every other consideration; to be so reckless as to run off with each other.  Lyanna wasn't behaving like Sansa.  She was made of iron and Rhaegar wanted to return the realm to peace, prosperity and justice. 

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