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R+L=A


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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is all way to easy to argue against as your clearly just trying to dismiss alot of clues that all line up.

Please, show me the quotes showing that 

1) Rhaegar and Ashara were more than just two people living under the same roof

2) Barristan knew

Without that, no case. "Might have because nothing states the contrary" doesn't suffice.

 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You missed the point about the Targs by the way. The Throne is what they're fighting over. The sister is the throne. She is the one inheriting the throne and their path to rule by marrying her. It flips to as pointed out above. It can be two targ sisters over their king brother. Hence Stannis vs Renly for the throne. 

You're making broad generalisation that don't hold water. For instance, the first Dance of Dragons - pray, who was the sister that Rhaenyra and Aegon warred over?

Plus, none of the previous sisters in dispute was the one to inherit the throne, so there is no parallel on which to base that this must happen, either.

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

People i feel are so obsessed with asserting their own ideas rather than actually trying to look at what Martin has set up and is saying. Which would explain why Martin say's most of these theories are way off. I hear doing the same thing and expecting different results is productive though ;) Obviously some of this is blanket  statements not directed to any particular person but rather a mind set of this forum ive noticed. Hate to say it but the LastHearth is a lil better when you wanna get some deeper insightful theories. It seems in here, a couple ideas have been latched on to, and they've just clung around like a bad smell. 

Well, if "insightful" means "ignoring the text for the sake of one's fanfic", good luck with that.

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19 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Please, show me the quotes showing that 

1) Rhaegar and Ashara were more than just two people living under the same roof

2) Barristan knew

Without that, no case. "Might have because nothing states the contrary" doesn't suffice.

 

You're making broad generalisation that don't hold water. For instance, the first Dance of Dragons - pray, who was the sister that Rhaenyra and Aegon warred over?

Plus, none of the previous sisters in dispute was the one to inherit the throne, so there is no parallel on which to base that this must happen, either.

Well, if "insightful" means "ignoring the text for the sake of one's fanfic", good luck with that.

Wrong thread.

this should be in

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149229-asharas-boyfriend/&page=4#comment-8081743

 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ah, sorry about that. My internet died, and messed the quotes after the resurrection.

If you have those two quotes, you can post them in the right thread and we'll pick up from there.

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4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, sorry about that. My internet died, and messed the quotes after the resurrection.

If you have those two quotes, you can post them in the right thread and we'll pick up from there.

I do and will :) gotta go to work for now so ill have to do it later tonight, cause that requires a lengthier response :)

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I want to start off this post with an apology to anyone who took my OP and comments as arrogant and rude. I just havent seen anywhere anyone provide concrete evidence for Jon being Rhaegar's. Thats not to say I havent provided concrete evidence of him being Ned's I just think there more "proof" (for lack of a better term) of him being Ned's. I would love nothing more than someone to persuade me. So please...

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12 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

I want to start off this post with an apology to anyone who took my OP and comments as arrogant and rude. I just havent seen anywhere anyone provide concrete evidence for Jon being Rhaegar's. Thats not to say I havent provided concrete evidence of him being Ned's I just think there more "proof" (for lack of a better term) of him being Ned's. I would love nothing more than someone to persuade me. So please...

Oh,  I didn't think you were being arrogant.   I don't think there is much evidence for RLJ either.  Your only sin is in saying it out loud and suggesting something else.  :D

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2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I want to start off this post with an apology to anyone who took my OP and comments as arrogant and rude. I just havent seen anywhere anyone provide concrete evidence for Jon being Rhaegar's.

Considering your didn't check out the R+L=J thread (certainly you didn't post anything there), you couldn't be looking very hard...

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think there is much evidence for RLJ either. 

You previously said something like that to me too.

So I'm wondering - if you don't believe that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then who's son is he?

He looks like a Stark. So one of his parents is definitely a Stark. It's either Lyanna, or Ned, or Brandon. In combination with one of those three, who is the second parent, Jon's not-a-Stark parent? 

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47 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Considering your didn't check out the R+L=J thread (certainly you didn't post anything there), you couldn't be looking very hard...

I did. Did i search the entire thread no but what I did see was nothing that suggest or promotes solid concrete evidence for R+L=J. All we really have is Lyanna making Ned promise her something. I think its safe to say this promise is to look out for her child though i believe this child to be Young Griff AKA Aegon

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5 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

All we really have is Lyanna making Ned promise her something.

We also have "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" and Ned thinking about her death with "the rose petals spilling from her hand, dead and black" (which was not a dream, he was awake and lucid when he remembered that).

So I've given you two more things, and they're just off the top of my head. There is a trail of clues throughout the books, all leading to the same conclusion. People who don't like R+L=J disregard the clues as "unreliable narrator" or "George is trying to misdirect us", but that's just clutching at straws. He wouldn't have set up a mystery (which a lot of people, including myself, didn't even get on the first read) just to pull a fast one on us after five books.

I'm open to any theories that are based on the words in the books. Fan fiction for the sake of it might be amusing but it's not very believable if you have to ignore what's in the books and make up stuff to fit the theory.

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1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

I think its safe to say this promise is to look out for her child though i believe this child to be Young Griff AKA Aegon

Can you provide textual evidence that could connect Ned to Young Griff?

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1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

All we really have is Lyanna making Ned promise her something. I think its safe to say this promise is to look out for her child though i believe this child to be Young Griff AKA Aegon

You're forgetting several important things:

1. Young Griff is supposedly Aegon Martell (son of Elia). And that baby was born either in 281 or 282. That baby was already born prior Tournament at Harrenhal.

Lyanna was kidnapped nearly a year, or a year, after tournament, so Elia's baby was [(timespan after Aegon's birth and until Tournament) + (timespan from Tournament and until Lyanna's kidnapping (12 or so months)) + 9 months of Lyanna's pregnancy]-old, at the time when Varys gave Young Griff to Jon Connington.

Elia's Aegon was supposed to be 21+ months old. While Lyanna's baby at that time was a newborn. Nearly 2-years old child doesn't look like a newborn baby. Elia's baby definitely, for sure, 1000%, was at least 21 months older than Lyanna's baby.

And JonCon, while thinking about fAegon's parents, thinks about Rhaegar and Elia, not about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

2. Ned had no connection with Varys. So why would he give his nephew to him? Why would he give the baby away to a freakish Spider, if he promised to his sister to keep the baby safe?

3. In genetic darker colors are dominant. If one of parents have dark eyes and dark hair, and the other parent have light hair and light eyes, then the baby will have dark hair and dark eyes.

And multiple examples of characters from ASOIAF world, prove that GRRM did minded real world genetics, when he made them: all Baratheons are dark haired and have dark-blue eyes; Cersei's children didn't inherited Baratheon's genetical traits, that's how Jon Arryn and Ned Stark realised that Robert is not their father; Elia's daughter Rhaenys, had dark hair and eyes like her mother; Jon Snow has Lyanna's dark hair and her grey eyes; Gendry had dark hair like Robert, even though his mother was blond; Edric Storm has big ears typical for Estermonts, like his mother; Baelor (or maybe his brother Maekar) Targaryen had dark hair of his Dornish mother; Daeron son of Maekar and nephew of Baelor had sandy brown hair; not all Targaryen children of Mariah Martell had dark hair, because her grandmother was Daenerys Targaryen, thus Mariah was also a carrier of "light-color" genes.

So unless one of Elia's grandparents was blond, the fact that Young Griff has light hair, proves that he is a fake, and not son of neither Elia Martell nor Lyanna Stark. I think that he is a child from female line of Blackfyres. That will explain why Varys came from Essos to 7K, and infiltrated court of Aerys II, why Illyrio watched for years Viserys and Daenerys, why Varys gave fAegon to JonCon, and why they are currently with Golden Company, that was founded by Aegor Bittersteel Blackfyre. Varys' goal is to assure that Young Griff / Aegon Blackfyre will become King of 7K.

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2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I did. Did i search the entire thread no but what I did see was nothing that suggest or promotes solid concrete evidence for R+L=J. All we really have is Lyanna making Ned promise her something. I think its safe to say this promise is to look out for her child though i believe this child to be Young Griff AKA Aegon

 

 

As maudi pointed out, that's not all we have though. And the R+L=J thread show examples of this, as in text-provided evidence. If it were just a bunch of us saying "well Lyanna promised Ned something, that says Jon is Rhaegars and Lyannas", as that would get boring very quickly with everyone using the one same example, the thread probably wouldn't be going on for as long as it has. Whereas again, there isn't anything that connects Ned & Ashara getting married, Jon being his one trueborn son, with the other Stark children belonging to anyone other than Ned, or the TOJ 284 thing. Now if you think  Griff or Faegon is  the true Baby Aegon, alive, thats another story, but then the question is, then whom was the TOJ baby and why did Ned feel the need to protect him and claim him as his own son.

 

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2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

People who don't like R+L=J disregard the clues as "unreliable narrator" or "George is trying to misdirect us"

What if it's not like that?

Quote

He wouldn't have set up a mystery (which a lot of people, including myself, didn't even get on the first read) just to pull a fast one on us after five books.

What if there is no any mysteries? At least not about babies.

Could be that fAegon is really Aegon Targaryen. And Jon Snow is really just a bastard son of Ned Stark, and his mother is either Ashara Dayne or Wylla. And there was no any babies born by Lyanna. Could be that she gave birth to a stillborn/dead baby, or she wasn't pregnant at all. Maybe room in blood, that Ned was remembering Lyanna in, was bloodied because, after hearing about Rhaegar's death, Lyanna sliced her wrists to commit suicide?

No baby. No mysteries. And everything that George did wrote in the books are real - Ned telling to Robert that Jon's mother's name is Wylla, Edric Dayne telling Arya that his ex wet nurse Wylla is Jon's mother, Jon Snow the Bastard of Winterfell.

And all mysteries are just fans' wishtful thinking.

How about that? :huh:

And when George will publish last book, and when all fans will be having this reactions: :bawl::bang::bs::shocked::tantrum:George will :laugh: and :smug: and he :smileysex:with fans, and :owned:all of them.

I hope he won't do something like that.

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Quote

then the question is, then whom was the TOJ baby and why did Ned feel the need to protect him and claim him as his own son.

WHAT baby?

Quotes, please.

Was there a baby at Tower of Joy?

Jon could be exactly that - Ned's bastard son. And that's the reason why he felt the need to protect him and claim him as his own.

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

"well Lyanna promised Ned something,

Maybe she asked him never to tell Robert what really happened with her. Or she asked him to bury her together with Rhaegar. Or she asked him to take her home. Or to never leave her <- so when he's going away from Winterfell, and thinking about many of his broken promises, that is about not staying with her at Winterfell and going to KL.

 

I get it, that you're absolutely sure that R+L=J. But you better accept at least a posibility, that this could be not true. Then, if George will reveal that there was no any babies born by Lyanna, it wouldn't be so overwelmingly shocking.

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

There is a trail of clues throughout the books, all leading to the same conclusion.

Quotes, please.

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

You previously said something like that to me too.

So I'm wondering - if you don't believe that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then who's son is he?

He looks like a Stark. So one of his parents is definitely a Stark. It's either Lyanna, or Ned, or Brandon. In combination with one of those three, who is the second parent, Jon's not-a-Stark parent? 

Yes, I think anyone should be able to discuss whatever they want about it without an over-reaction by anyone who is invested in RLJ.  I expect there are any number of new forum members who haven't fully discussed these ideas and have an interest in doing so.  For my part, I've been following the discussion long enough to have lost interest in it.  I don't feel any particular need to discuss Jon's parentage.  I do think Lyanna is his mother and Rhaegar is Dany's father.  Also that Aegon is Rhaegar's son.  I don't agree with a romanticized version that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna and they eloped.  I think Dany and Jon are both older than we have been told and that opens up other options for Jon's parentage in my mind.    

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

WHAT baby?

Quotes, please.

Was there a baby at Tower of Joy?

Jon could be exactly that - Ned's bastard son. And that's the reason why he felt the need to protect him and claim him as his own.

Maybe she asked him never to tell Robert what really happened with her. Or she asked him to bury her together with Rhaegar. Or she asked him to take her home. Or to never leave her <- so when he's going away from Winterfell, and thinking about many of his broken promises, that is about not staying with her at Winterfell and going to KL.

 

I get it, that you're absolutely sure that R+L=J. But you better accept at least a posibility, that this could be not true. Then, if George will reveal that there was no any babies born by Lyanna, it wouldn't be so overwelmingly shocking.

Quotes, please.

Uhm for one, where'd I say I was absolutely sure about R+L=J, all I've said wholetime was there's more textual book evidence which supports that idea, than the specific things he posted, I've already mentioned the examples, so there's no need to repeat myself. Like I said, if you believe Young Griff is the true baby Aegon, then thats a different story than claiming Ned & Ashara Dayne were married,  and the 5 Stark children aren't Ned's. Hell Ned thinks more about Rhaegar than he does Ashara Dayne, she's almost never mentioned by Ned in Ned's POV chapters, even with the time Ned remembers him in AGOT..Judging from his writing style, George would make those connections, as subtle and mysteriously as he can, but he'd still connect those dots between Ned, Jon, & Ashara Dayne, yet he kinda doesn't...He atleast does so for the whole Young Griff/Varys/Illyrio/Connington/Pisswater Prince/Rhaegar/Elia Martell theory, for the sake of possibility. And he does the same for Jon/Rhaegar/Lyanna, why not for a theory like Ned & Ashara Dayne birthing Jon?

 

Quote

 

 

"Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

In this quote right here, Ned & LF are talking specifically about bastards, the secrets of bastards and noblemen, and the fact that people typically died in Planetos to protect those secrets. Ned frowns at this, possibly because he embodies exactly the kind of person LF is talking about, he's protected and hidden a secret for 15 years, and then in this instance he finds himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen, and the thought of him frequenting brothels, which perhaps the reason why Ned finds it so unlikely is because Rhaegar clearly had a preference for highborn ladies, and wouldn't be interested in such types of women. Unlike Robert, who seems to be the character to stick his thing anywhere, almost as if Ned knows this about Rhaegar for a fact. And in his previous chapter, after being threatened by Robert, claiming he'd put Ned's head on a spike, he's thinks about Rhaegar as well...

 

 

Quote

 

 

"We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

 

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen."

 

The fact that Ned seems to think of Rhaegar so fondly, perhaps shows that he's going off the typical trail, diverting from the established tale of Lyanna being kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar and kept against her will. It's as if Ned only kept on with the tale and never publicly questioned it, solely to protect Jon and his true lineage. And from everything we're told about Lyanna, "the She-Wolf", she definitely doesn't seem the type to allow herself to be captured so easily, she was almost as warrior-like as her brothers.

 

When Ned is in the cells down in the Red Keep, Ned "thought of his children then, and of Jon." And theres this quote from another Ned POV...

 

Quote

 

 

..

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?

 

 

He specifically enumerates his children, but leaves Jon out of the mix. If Jon was Ned's ONLY trueborn child, wouldn't it be the other way around?

 

 

The whole KOTLT story, implies Rhaegar discovered Lyanna in the tent, became infatuated with her for whatever reason and kept her secret (the fact that she was the mystery knight), in part because of this infatuation. Yet you ask for quotes, but still, a reasonable request. You say what baby, what could the Kingsguard be protecting at the TOJ? Whats the significance of them being ordered to stand in the middle of nowhere, to protect a castle, instead of at the side of their prince during his time of battle, and why would Rhaegar allow this? Could it be to simply protect Lyanna? Most that would've happened to her, is being recovered by her brothers forces or Roberts, she would've been protected regardless by her brother and the other man whom loved her, in the case of the fall of the Targaryens. So what would be the need of a kingsguard for just her? Perhaps they were carrying out their purpose, in protecting an heir, at least in Rhaegars eyes at the time, to the Iron Throne, no? The blue rose petals in Lyanna's hand, as she's laying dying in the bed, yet gripping those rose petals in her hand, seems to be direct foreshadowing of Jon, when we've heard him referred to in visions as the "Winter rose growing out of the wall"...The Wall...And just for the sake of discussion, "Promise me Ned, promise me, "after he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes." The fear of what?

 

Bran I, AGoT

 

Quote

 

 

"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “

I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully. Robb rushed into the silence he left."

Now this is after Ned asks "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" Instead of saying, "no, you are my son" or something like that, Ned regards Jon thoughtfully, maybeee the thought is, "you're a Targaryen", but he acknowledges the nobleness of Jon's statement right there? Also in Bran I, Bran is describing Robb & Jon, Robb is described as "big and broad, with his mothers fair coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun", whereas Jon is" slender, where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb is fair, [Jon was] graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast"*..And Jon's "eyes are a grey so dark they almost seemed black", interesting that, since Rhaegar and some other Targaryens have eyes so purple or lilac, which at times are also described as so dark they almost seem black. He has body features similar to Rhaegar, and maybe his eyes is a combination of Stark Grey, as he also seems to take after his possible mother, and the Targaryen lilacs so dark where they almost seem black, just maybe?

 

I'm tired of typing for now, but I'll gladly post more later, but there seems to be hints and clues, subtle ones, even in the first couple of chapters of AGOT of R+L=J being a fact. Young Griff being the true Aegon is a possiblity and even I think that ADWD provides some clues and hints for that as well, but imo, nothing adds up as good as "R+L=J" does.

 

*- The exact quote here is, "Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast." This is coming from Brans 1st POV chapter, but in this case he's excluding himself from the description, and the "half brother" in this case is Robb, Jon's half brother.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

 

 

 

My responses in relation to the book quotes are in bold, this is my first time using the book stuff, quote for quote, and clearly I screwed it up big time, so I bolded my responses in an effort of you guys understanding my screwed up post a little better. Sorry about that, guys.

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On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 3:35 PM, maudisdottir said:

I stopped reading after not very much scrolling because there were already so many unsubstantiated claims that I couldn't be bothered going any further. So this question may have been answered above, but none of the proponents of the "Ned and Ashara were in love" theories have ever given a satisfactory response:

Why would Ashara fall for Ned?

She's one of the most beautiful girls in the 7K, from an ancient house, and is lady in waiting to the Crown Princess. A girl like that could pick and choose from the available noblemen. Why would she be interested in plain faced, dull, second son Ned? He has nothing to offer but a life in the cold North in some second-rate keep that he holds for Lord Brandon, or at best living at Winterfell and serving in his brother's household. That's not a promising prospect for a beautiful young girl like Ashara.

I can see why Ned might fall for Ashara, yet nowhere in his chapters does he think about her, even once. So much for great romance, if all of his dreams and regrets are about his dying sister, yet for the woman he supposedly loved and secretly married and had a child with, he doesn't spare a single passing thought?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

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