Ser Insight

R+L=A

153 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Faera said:

So? That doesn’t make an iota of difference to what I said. It isn't about how many people know - it's about who knows and where their loyalties lie. The only difference is you have placed the baby in a position where Ned cannot protect it himself. Arranging to ship the baby safely out of Westeros and set him up safely in Essos (as place Ned doesn't appear to know much about nor is there any indication he has visited) takes more planning and adds to the risk of more people outside of the inner circle who Ned cannot trust finding out about it.
 

It is certainly possible he was the one who told Ned where Rhaegar was keeping Lyanna, but it is not the only option. There is no reason to believe he ever knew a living baby came out of that Tower, though. 

I'm not sure off the top of my head whether there is an interview somewhere stating it plain since it’s been a while I went fishing in the ‘So Spake Martin’ pond or scouted YT for Q&As he’s done, but it is made plain in the books:
 

I know people like to think that every day is “Opposite Day” when it comes to the books when it suits fans but there really is no reason at the moment to believe Ned is lying about this so far. If you want to argue the Kingsguard lived, you are welcome to do so — but, and I’ll say it until I’m blue in the face, try and find a quote from the text. The A Search of Ice and Fire database makes it so much easier to double check quotes and moments you remember but aren't sure how they went, aha.

Now I know some fans wet themselves a little because Mance was a good longsword fighter against Jon in ADwD and that made them exclaim “OMG! Must be Arthur Dayne!” as if he is the only person allowed to be skilled with a two-handed longsword in the whole of T7K, but it's could as easily be a red herring as it is a seed of evidence.

The Kingsguard faked their deaths. Osha even tell's bran "Mance has never seen winter"

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41 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

The Kingsguard faked their deaths. Osha even tell's bran "Mance has never seen winter"

 

 

Really, now? 

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1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

The Kingsguard faked their deaths. Osha even tell's bran "Mance has never seen winter"

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Really, now? 


Still, at least you tried to use an actual quote this time, even if it is out of context. It happens to be a favourite of mine:

Quote

 

"Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your  maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back … or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." -- Bran 6, A Game of Thrones
 

 

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On the very surface of it, the "He's never tasted winter" is tied directly to the fact that he was a Night's Watch brother and has never lived a proper full Winter beyond the Wall. They are just getting to the end of a ten-year-long Summer and we don't know how long ago Mance defected from the NW. In comparison, Osha is Freefolk born and bred and knows what real winter is. It is not just the environmental perils or the effects of seasonal change (lack of game to hunt or crops to grow etc.) but also the threat of the Others; White Walkers and Wights equal Winter. Mance "thinks he'll fight" because, as far as she's concerned, he doesn't know any better. Eventually, Mance does come to realise this but then has to fight a war against the NW, who have forgotten.

Quote

Osha stood, her chains rattling together. "I tried to tell your lordling brother. Only yesterday, when I saw him in the yard. 'M'lord Stark,' I called to him, respectful as you please, but he looked through me, and that sweaty oaf Greatjon Umber shoves me out of the path. So be it. I'll wear my irons and hold my tongue. A man who won't listen can't hear."

"Tell me. Robb will listen to me, I know he will."

"Will he now? We'll see. You tell him this, m'lord. You tell him he's bound on marching the wrong way. It's north he should be taking his swords. North, not south. You hear me?"  -- Bran 6, A Game of Thrones
 

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But what does Bran do? He forgets.

Soooooooooooooooo, no. I don't really think this is a hint that Mance is some knight Osha probably doesn't even know or care about. I see why someone might read it that way but it is also an important passage as it is; is It underlines a huge problem with the state of things in the 7K, including the Watchers on the Wall who have lost their purpose because they have forgotten it, from which Mance hails from. The people born behind the Wall are naive, out-of-touch and they have forgotten.

Thinking about it, it's another the reason why I ultimately think Aegon will come to nothing. I'll give you that he is a promising lad if not a little too coddled and weirdly entitled considering he's someone who has supposedly been taught all his life that kingship is his duty. Whether he is real Aegon or (f)Aegon, he is is a character too far removed from the prophecy, mystery and melancholy that dominated Rhaegar's life. Jon is not. Daenerys is not. Bran is not. Aegon is just another a piece in the game of thrones, (a game Ned would never have allowed the child of his sister to be used as a pawn, king or dragon in), and unfortunately for Varys and their cohort, the board is very close to being kicked over. Like Aegon having a tantrum.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/37l3gg/spoilers_all_updates_to_the_winds_of_winter/

I asked, "Regarding the Tower of Joy, did anyone other than Ned, Howland Reed, and Jon leave?" "Any men, I mean."

My intent wasn't to be sneaky about Jon. I think R+L=J is a fact. I was actually asking because I have a tinfoil theory about Ser Arthur Dayne being alive. Check way back in my comment history for proof.

In his answer to my question, GRRM only commented that all the others "fell," not that they died.

It should be somewhere in the SSMs, as well, but I don't have the time for a more thorough search. 

Not that it really matters because all GRRM does here is rephrase what he had already said in the books: out of seven against three, only two lived to ride away, Ned built eight cairns and Martyn Cassel is buried in the south with the rest.

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

He'll never respond with quotes from the text, because for many of his views, there aren't any text from the books which support them. He's been asked repeatedly to simply provide text which supports his theory and the many facets of said theory, and it still hasn't been done, instead we're answered with his version of facts.

 

More’s the pity. It might have been interesting to actually discuss the idea beyond “It’s what I want to believe so neeeeehhhhhh!” 

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Thinking about it, it's another the reason why I ultimately think Aegon will come to nothing. I'll give you that he is a promising lad if not a little too coddled and weirdly entitled considering he's someone who has supposedly been taught all his life that kingship is his duty. Whether he is real Aegon or (f)Aegon, he is is a character too far removed from the prophecy, mystery and melancholy that dominated Rhaegar's life. Jon is not. Daenerys is not. Bran is not. Aegon is just another a piece in the game of thrones, (a game Ned would never have allowed the child of his sister to be used as a pawn, king or dragon in), and unfortunately for Varys and their cohort, the board is very close to being kicked over. Like Aegon having a tantrum.

:agree:

In my opinion GRRM is just using fAegon, as a diversion to speed up events on political map of Westeros. Before the war against the Others will begin, he has to do something with Cersei, Euron, Dany and Dothraki and her ex-Slavers Bay, Freys, Tyrells, Sansa and Littlefinger with their Knights of the Vale, Martells, etc.

Basically Aegon is just a broom that will sweep off the board excess chess pieces. Though in the process of cleaning, the broom itself will also break.

And the only characters that will remain after that will be Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Sam, Gilly, and some extras for the Army of Light. But even half of those, will also die in a war against the Others.

Edited by Megorova

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On 12/5/2017 at 4:23 PM, Faera said:


Still, at least you tried to use an actual quote this time, even if it is out of context. It happens to be a favourite of mine:

On the very surface of it, the "He's never tasted winter" is tied directly to the fact that he was a Night's Watch brother and has never lived a proper full Winter beyond the Wall. They are just getting to the end of a ten-year-long Summer and we don't know how long ago Mance defected from the NW. In comparison, Osha is Freefolk born and bred and knows what real winter is. It is not just the environmental perils or the effects of seasonal change (lack of game to hunt or crops to grow etc.) but also the threat of the Others; White Walkers and Wights equal Winter. Mance "thinks he'll fight" because, as far as she's concerned, he doesn't know any better. Eventually, Mance does come to realise this but then has to fight a war against the NW, who have forgotten.

But what does Bran do? He forgets.

Soooooooooooooooo, no. I don't really think this is a hint that Mance is some knight Osha probably doesn't even know or care about. I see why someone might read it that way but it is also an important passage as it is; is It underlines a huge problem with the state of things in the 7K, including the Watchers on the Wall who have lost their purpose because they have forgotten it, from which Mance hails from. The people born behind the Wall are naive, out-of-touch and they have forgotten.

Thinking about it, it's another the reason why I ultimately think Aegon will come to nothing. I'll give you that he is a promising lad if not a little too coddled and weirdly entitled considering he's someone who has supposedly been taught all his life that kingship is his duty. Whether he is real Aegon or (f)Aegon, he is is a character too far removed from the prophecy, mystery and melancholy that dominated Rhaegar's life. Jon is not. Daenerys is not. Bran is not. Aegon is just another a piece in the game of thrones, (a game Ned would never have allowed the child of his sister to be used as a pawn, king or dragon in), and unfortunately for Varys and their cohort, the board is very close to being kicked over. Like Aegon having a tantrum.

I dont get how you can say Ned would "never" Ned has always done what he believes is right. Ned wasnt trying to make aegon a pawn he was trying to give him life. Robert would have killed the babe. The "honest" Ned stark would never "hijack" the throne from the rightful heir (this is in terms of the masses thinking on Joff/Tommens claim before their true parentage was revealed) but he did just that and barbecue the 7K have bled. If he shut his mouth and gave the throne to Joff Westeros wouldn't be in the state its currently in

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2 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

I dont get how you can say Ned would "never" Ned has always done what he believes is right. Ned wasnt trying to make aegon a pawn he was trying to give him life. Robert would have killed the babe. The "honest" Ned stark would never "hijack" the throne from the rightful heir (this is in terms of the masses thinking on Joff/Tommens claim before their true parentage was revealed) but he did just that and barbecue the 7K have bled. If he shut his mouth and gave the throne to Joff Westeros wouldn't be in the state its currently in

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

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10 hours ago, Faera said:

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Neither do I, and I am also waiting for your response to the quotes showing the outcome of the ToJ fight. What's your explanation of them, if you think that the KG survived?

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12 hours ago, Faera said:

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Neither do I, and I am also waiting for your response to the quotes showing the outcome of the ToJ fight. What's your explanation of them, if you think that the KG survived?

Isn't the OP's theory basically just The Order of the Green Hand youtubers theory? If that's the case the OP didn't research the theory and it might explain the lack of text to support it. 

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3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Isn't the OP's theory basically just The Order of the Green Hand youtubers theory? If that's the case the OP didn't research the theory and it might explain the lack of text to support it. 

Well, if someone promotes a theory and dismisses another, I'd expect them to know at least a wee bit, or be able to respond to information served right under their nose.

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7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Isn't the OP's theory basically just The Order of the Green Hand youtubers theory? If that's the case the OP didn't research the theory and it might explain the lack of text to support it. 

In defense of Order Of The Greenhand, they usually present better arguments than "well because", for most of their theories, including the R+L=A theory. Even if most of their proof is book quotes taken way out of context.

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Neither do I, and I am also waiting for your response to the quotes showing the outcome of the ToJ fight. What's your explanation of them, if you think that the KG survived?

Both of us provided evidence for why there is no real indication that the Kingsguard - or even Just Arthur - survived the showdown at ToJ and have all but begged the OP for textual evidence numerous times yet only got in response non-sequiturs. If one can’t defend one’s thesis, what’s the point of the thesis? If any of us submitted an essay that lacked even primary sources, we can’t expect to get a A*. 

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Isn't the OP's theory basically just The Order of the Green Hand youtubers theory? If that's the case the OP didn't research the theory and it might explain the lack of text to support it. 

Just so. TOotGH have been releasing revised versions of their ToJ/Jon theories, and this has led to a tiny surge in people citing their videos. I’m subbed to them, watch their stuff, and enjoyed some of them. I like some of their ideas and they have got me to go back and give passages another look. I’m not going to dismiss a theory just because it came from them — I’ll entertain it and consider it based on my own findings. Needless to say their Jon-Aegon-Mance-Val series did not convince me at all because they rely do much on leaps in logic.

Ultimately, if someone is going to take a theory and roll with it, you would expect them to have thought about it a little more and verified the claims before jumping into the wolf’s den.

Edited by Faera

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