Military Strengths and More!

[Corvo the Crow]

On 21.03.2018 at 11:08 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Give for example the Westerlands 5 million people and they can probably raise 50k-60k men from it. Give the North 5 million people and they can maybe only raise 35k from it. Or whatever the diffetential may be. The point is, the North will have a lower mobilization rate than the Stormlands, and even lower compared to wealthy, geographically small, demographically dense regions like the West.

 

Quite agree. Tywin raises 12k to betray his former best (and perhaps only)friend, Robb gathers 12k in Winterfell. Can't find a time on Tywin's raise but here is for Robb

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For near a fortnight there had been so many comings and goings that Robb ordered both portcullises kept up and the drawbridge down between them, even in the dead of night. A long column of armored lancers was crossing the moat between the walls when Bran emerged from the tower; Karstark men, following their lords into the castle. They wore black iron halfhelms and black woolen cloaks patterned with the white sunburst. Hodor trotted along beside them, smiling to himself, his boots thudding against the wood of the drawbridge

A fortnight and Karstarks were the last.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Quite agree. Tywin raises 12k to betray his former best (and perhaps only)friend, Robb gathers 12k in Winterfell. Can't find a time on Tywin's raise but here is for Robb

A fortnight and Karstarks were the last.

That's just how long things have been fairly busy at Winterfell. That's not the total time from when Robb first sent out ravens to when the Karstarks arrived.

Stannis expects it will require 15 days just to march his already gathered army from Deepwood to Winterfell - 300 miles as the crow flies. Karhold is twice that far away. So at marching pace, that would be a month's march. And that's from the time that the men are gathered. I'd expect another few weeks for Lord Karstark to gather his 2300, and set up the logistical support to make the 600-mile march possible.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That's just how long things have been fairly busy at Winterfell. That's not the total time from when Robb first sent out ravens to when the Karstarks arrived.

Stannis expects it will require 15 days just to march his already gathered army from Deepwood to Winterfell - 300 miles as the crow flies. Karhold is twice that far away. So at marching pace, that would be a month's march. And that's from the time that the men are gathered. I'd expect another few weeks for Lord Karstark to gather his 2300, and set up the logistical support to make the 600-mile march possible.

If we are realistic, then yes. There's also this though, Rossart the alchemist becomes hand after the trident and is hand for a fortnight until Jaime kills him during the sack. Tywin who has raised perhaps near 30k excluding the mercenaries having only 12k, to me, is indicating that it was a quick raise so he managed to raise all these men and march them to KL within 15 days. Karstarks should be able to gather and march in less than a month.

[Corvo the Crow]

Not on numbers but one thing I'd like to find out is on which side the Crackclaw men fought. 

- Dick Crabb has his tunic's badge torn out, so he was possibly on a losing side.

- They are all "Good Dragon men" up Crackclaw way. 

- The other "Good Dragon men" we know; Velaryon, Celtigar, Bar Emmon and Massey were all on Stannis' side.

These make me think Crackclaw men were too but is there anything else on them that can help find out which side they fought for?

[Corvo the Crow]

Since population sizes have been discussed recently, what are some known populations and what would be your estimations/guesses based on our current knowledge?

For example the entire population of beyond the wall is some 30000 before Mance loses people in his long march.

From sworn sword a village seems to have 50-100 people, Eustace has 3 villages but from what we've seen so far (LF, Mountain and perhaps houses Wode and Hogg) regular landed knight seems to have a single village.

So a lord like Manderlys or Osgreys of old have a population of 5000-10000 from their landed knights. 

Their "lesser lord" vassals are trickier but Webbers, to me a house that seemed better off than average lordling, had 20 times the population of Osgreys meaning 3000-6000.

So if we take Webbers  as an average lesser lord (which I think they aren't) Manderlys would have 36000-72000 from his lesser lord vassals.

So a house as powerful as Manderlys seem to have 41000-82000, just from their vassals and not including any cities or towns that house may have or the lands directly held by them. Perhaps more if average landed knight have more than one village.

Osgreys of old would then have 65000-130000 from their vassals alone. 

Worth noting is Manderlys are the most powerful vassal in the North and Osgreys were not the most powerful but one of the most powerful in Reach. So their population sizes should be an upper limit that most lords wouldn't be able to reach.

Also on how "bleak and desolate" a land the North is

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West of the road were flint hills, grey and rugged, with tall watchtowers on their stony summits. To the east the land was lower, the ground flattening to a rolling plain that stretched away as far as the eye could see. Stone bridges spanned swift, narrow rivers, while small farms spread in rings around holdfasts walled in wood and stone. The road was well trafficked, and at night for their comfort there were rude inns to be found.

On phone and can't quote everything but this is the case for the first three days but even after that there are forest holdfasts, it's just the farms that is lacking.

I should change the title as it seems I'll be able to do some more updates in the near future.

[Corvo the Crow]

This post is on military strengths again

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III 

"Perhaps we can move to a more pleasant task," said Lord Tywin. "The fruits of victory await division."

"What could be sweeter?" said Littlefinger, who had already swallowed his own fruit, Harrenhal.

Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle. Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all. Varys had lists. Forty-seven lesser lordlings and six hundred nineteen knights had lost their lives beneath the fiery heart of Stannis and his Lord of Light, along with several thousandcommon men-at-arms. Traitors all, their heirs were disinherited, their lands and castles granted to those who had proved more loyal. 

Highgarden reaped the richest harvest. Tyrion eyed Mace Tyrell's broad belly and thought, He has a prodigious appetite, this one. Tyrell demanded the lands and castles of Lord Alester Florent, his own bannerman, who'd had the singular ill judgment to back first Renly and then Stannis. Lord Tywin was pleased to oblige. Brightwater Keep and all its lands and incomes were granted to Lord Tyrell's second son, Ser Garlan, transforming him into a great lord in the blink of an eye. His elder brother, of course, stood to inherit Highgarden itself.

From here it appears to be that the Florents , who are able to field 2000 men, may have been the most powerful among lords who have died and/or lost their seats as that is the richest harvest, not Harrenhal.

Two of these dead lords are Guyard Morrigen(well his brother the lord is alive but loyal to Stannis) and Bryce Caron and one of the dispossessed is Lady Whent of Harrenhal.

Worth noting is that Caron and Dondarrion took 800 knights and near 4000 men to fight Vulture king, so Dondarrions may have provided the better part of this or they were able to reach this number mostly by sellswords and hedge knights like Arlan and Bennis and Florents are able to gather 2000 from just their lands.

Also worth noting it says 47 lesser lords dead, not mentioning any of the dead as a great lord but it could not be so important.

Dead lords and land grants after Blackwater that come to my mind are 

Harrenhal to Petyr Baelish

Darry to Lancel Lannister

Nightsong to Philip Foote (he slayed it's lord Bryce Caron)

Guyard Morrigen dead, his brother Lord Lester Morrigen still loyal to Stannis, so they'll lose lands too.

So all these lords very likely have fewer than 2000 men.

Also two Fossoways of the red apple are killed but a third, Ser Tanton bends the knee, so their lands are possibly left to them.

[Corvo the Crow]

Another note on population

Pebbleton which belongs to Lord Merlyn has several thousand people. So Merlyns seem to fit in the "lesser lord" population I have guesstimated above.

[Corvo the Crow]

A small thing related to military strengths

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Hallis Mollen looked abashed. "Between the horses Lord Eddard took south and them we sent north to the Night's Watch, the stalls were half-empty. It were no greattrick to hide from the stableboys. Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy's been acting queer, but simple as he is …" Hal shook his head.

Eddard took 50 guards with him and also some wagons so that makes perhaps 60-70 horses at least they also give a dozen or so to NW.

But there's also this

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The visitors poured through the castle gates in a river of gold and silver and polished steel, three hundred strong, a pride of bannermen and knights, of sworn swords and freeriders. Over their heads a dozen golden banners whipped back and forth in the northern wind, emblazoned with the crowned stag of Baratheon.

...

By then the others were dismounting as well, and grooms were coming forward for their mounts. Robert's queen, Cersei Lannister, entered on foot with her younger children. The wheelhouse in which they had ridden, a huge double-decked carriage of oiled oak and gilded metal pulled by forty heavy draft horses, was too wide to pass through the castle gate. Ned knelt in the snow to kiss the queen's ring, while Robert embraced Catelyn like a long-lost sister. Then the children had been brought forward, introduced, and approved of by both sides.

Since I couldn't find any mention of horses outside of stables, Winterfell's Stables seems to be large enough to have 500 horses, perhaps more.

For comparison, Harrenhal's stables have room for 1000 horses.

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Sometimes she thought they were all mice within those thick walls, even the knights and the great lords. The size of the castle made even Gregor Clegane seem small. Harrenhal covered thrice as much ground as Winterfell, and its buildings were so much larger they could scarcely be compared. Its stables housed a thousand horses,

 

[Corvo the Crow]

While searching for these last posts I came into some land and castle sizes

Harrenhal covers three times the land Winterfell doea and has 20 acres of Godswood compares to 3 of Winterfell.

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The gods of Winterfell kept a different sort of wood. It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around

Hareenhal covered thrice as much ground as Winterfell... its godswood covered twenty acres

 

Land owned by Petyr

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It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

 

Pyke has a headland of 50 acres

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Beyond the curtain wall were half a hundred acres of headland hard against the sky and the sea. The stables were here, and the kennels, and a scatter of other outbuildings. Sheep and swine huddled in their pens while the castle dogs ran free. To the south were the cliffs, and the wide stone bridge to the Great Keep.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Since population sizes have been discussed recently, what are some known populations and what would be your estimations/guesses based on our current knowledge?

For example the entire population of beyond the wall is some 30000 before Mance loses people in his long march.

From sworn sword a village seems to have 50-100 people, Eustace has 3 villages but from what we've seen so far (LF, Mountain and perhaps houses Wode and Hogg) regular landed knight seems to have a single village.

So a lord like Manderlys or Osgreys of old have a population of 5000-10000 from their landed knights. 

Their "lesser lord" vassals are trickier but Webbers, to me a house that seemed better off than average lordling, had 20 times the population of Osgreys meaning 3000-6000.

So if we take Webbers  as an average lesser lord (which I think they aren't) Manderlys would have 36000-72000 from his lesser lord vassals.

So a house as powerful as Manderlys seem to have 41000-82000, just from their vassals and not including any cities or towns that house may have or the lands directly held by them. Perhaps more if average landed knight have more than one village.

Osgreys of old would then have 65000-130000 from their vassals alone. 

Worth noting is Manderlys are the most powerful vassal in the North and Osgreys were not the most powerful but one of the most powerful in Reach. So their population sizes should be an upper limit that most lords wouldn't be able to reach.

Also on how "bleak and desolate" a land the North is

On phone and can't quote everything but this is the case for the first three days but even after that there are forest holdfasts, it's just the farms that is lacking.

I should change the title as it seems I'll be able to do some more updates in the near future.

This is not feasible, Corvo.

Manderly likely has a population of at least 500,000 people in his lands. Probably more like 750k, actually.

So, if we assume that his lands are split between a dozen "sub-lords", in addition to a hundred landed knights sworn directly to him, then we could say that each sub lord probably rules tens of thousands of people, spread across hundreds of villages each.

If you think about it, even a mere 4 million population for the North would require almost 100,000 villages of 40-50 people each, spread across the North. . Similarly, the South would require hundreds of thousands of villages too, to account for its total population.

Now, there clearly aren't anywhere close to 100,000 landed knights in the North, nor are there hundreds of thousands of landed knights in the South. So that clearly means we are talking about multiple villages per landed knight, and hundreds of villages per petty lord, with thousands of villages per major lord to account for Westeros's full population.

Therefore, a typical landed knight most likely rules a central keep surrounded by a dozen or more villages, and a situation like Ser Osgrey with his paltry three villages is really an example of an absolute bottom of the barrel landed knight at the edge of extinction. Think about it, I doubt a single village can even afford to support a stone keep and its landed knight on a permanent basis.

So no, the average landed knight rules many villages, not just one. And Lord Manderly, as an example, rules ten thousand villages or more.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This is not feasible, Corvo.

Manderly likely has a population of at least 500,000 people in his lands. Probably more like 750k, actually.

So, if we assume that his lands are split between a dozen "sub-lords", in addition to a hundred landed knights sworn directly to him, then we could say that each sub lord probably rules tens of thousands of people, spread across hundreds of villages each.

If you think about it, even a mere 4 million population for the North would require almost 100,000 villages of 40-50 people each, spread across the North. . Similarly, the South would require hundreds of thousands of villages too, to account for its total population.

Now, there clearly aren't anywhere close to 100,000 landed knights in the North, nor are there hundreds of thousands of landed knights in the South. So that clearly means we are talking about multiple villages per landed knight, and hundreds of villages per petty lord, with thousands of villages per major lord to account for Westeros's full population.

Therefore, a typical landed knight most likely rules a central keep surrounded by a dozen or more villages, and a situation like Ser Osgrey with his paltry three villages is really an example of an absolute bottom of the barrel landed knight at the edge of extinction. Think about it, I doubt a single village can even afford to support a stone keep and its landed knight on a permanent basis.

So no, the average landed knight rules many villages, not just one. And Lord Manderly, as an example, rules ten thousand villages or more.

 

 

Eustace Osgrey is not the only landed knight we see however; as told, Gregor Cleagane only has the one village and even as a lord and not a landed knight Baelish have a single village. We see plenty of other landed knights(not counting powerful ones like Templetons) as well, though it isn't clear how many villages they have on average, they appear to have just one without further information given; some that come to mind are Wodes and Hogg as written above, there is also Naylands from Frey lands which own Hag's Mire, the village Chett came from.

In the same post we have House Webber with 20 times the population of Eustace Osgrey. Though we don't know where on the scale they stand, but they seem to be well off in terms of a lesser lord (compare it with Northern mountain clans or Darrys and Conningtons after RR) In another post there's Lord Merlyn with his several thousand people.

I admit my calculation is a bit lackluster, as there would be plenty of towns around(I'll give a Riverlands quote below), some landed knights may have more than the one village, some landed knights would even own towns like House Cox with Saltpans and not every village would have 50-100 people, some like the fishing village Pebbelton of Merlyns have several thousand.

But this stands; from what we have seen so far, average landed knight(and even some lords) appears to have just a single village(or maybe town), size of it may vary and the average lord (lesser) seems to have a population in the low thousands as seen with the only examples we have, Merlyn and Webber.

 

Anyway, here's the Cat quote

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The rain obscured the fields beyond the crossroads, but Catelyn saw the land clear enough in her memory. The marketplace was just across the way, and the village a mile farther on, half a hundred white cottages surrounding a small stone sept. There would be more now; the summer had been long and peaceful. North of here the kingsroad ran along the Green Fork of the Trident, through fertile valleys and green woodlands, past thriving towns and stout holdfasts and the castles of the river lords.

Not only it shows us that there are several towns along Greenfork, making it likely that small towns are common throughout the land with perhaps the exception of Drone, it also gives us a description of a village with some 50 houses.

So again, not every village needs to be so small but the average landed knight seemingly have one village be it small or big.

[Corvo the Crow]

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Yet even at their greatest extent, the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the riverlands, and the west, and thus the might of the lords of Storm's End was diminished. Those who do choose to make their homes in the stormlands—whether along the stony shores of the narrow sea, amidst the dripping green forests of the rainwood, or on the windswept marches—are a special breed, however. The people of the stormlands are like unto their weather, it has oft been said: tumultuous, violent, implacable, unpredictable.

I have made some calculations on Stormlands before, this supports them having lower figures than Riverlands, Westerlands and Vale since not only it is thinly peopled, but it's also a smaller realm than any of the three. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Eustace Osgrey is not the only landed knight we see however; as told, Gregor Cleagane only has the one village and even as a lord and not a landed knight Baelish have a single village. We see plenty of other landed knights(not counting powerful ones like Templetons) as well, though it isn't clear how many villages they have on average, they appear to have just one without further information given; some that come to mind are Wodes and Hogg as written above, there is also Naylands from Frey lands which own Hag's Mire, the village Chett came from.

In the same post we have House Webber with 20 times the population of Eustace Osgrey. Though we don't know where on the scale they stand, but they seem to be well off in terms of a lesser lord (compare it with Northern mountain clans or Darrys and Conningtons after RR) In another post there's Lord Merlyn with his several thousand people.

I admit my calculation is a bit lackluster, as there would be plenty of towns around(I'll give a Riverlands quote below), some landed knights may have more than the one village, some landed knights would even own towns like House Cox with Saltpans and not every village would have 50-100 people, some like the fishing village Pebbelton of Merlyns have several thousand.

But this stands; from what we have seen so far, average landed knight(and even some lords) appears to have just a single village(or maybe town), size of it may vary and the average lord (lesser) seems to have a population in the low thousands as seen with the only examples we have, Merlyn and Webber.

 

Anyway, here's the Cat quote

Not only it shows us that there are several towns along Greenfork, making it likely that small towns are common throughout the land with perhaps the exception of Drone, it also gives us a description of a village with some 50 houses.

So again, not every village needs to be so small but the average landed knight seemingly have one village be it small or big.

No, where does it say so? Even Eustace Osgrey has three, and his house is at the verge of disappearing. And the basic question then remains: If Westeros has 40 million people, with on average a landed knight per village, then even if the average village has 200 people, (which does not appear to be the case) that requires something like 200,000 landed knights in Westeros. Which we know is not nearly the number that exists. Landed knights are only a fraction of the total number of knights, with there being maybe 10 oreven a hundred household knights for every landed knight. And all knights together make up maybe 10%-20% of the total armed strength that Westeros can raise. Westeros at most can raise 400,000 soldiers, meaning at most maybe 80,000 knights, but probably closer to 40,000 knights.

And of those, maybe 20% at best will be landed knights, as opposed to household knights, hedge knights etc. So most likely, there are around 10,000 landed knights in Westeros, at most. Meaning one landed knight for every 4000 people.

So if each landed knight on average rules only one village, of say 100 people per village, that gives you 1 million people. Who then rules all of the villages where the other 39 million people live?

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, where does it say so? Even Eustace Osgrey has three, and his house is at the verge of disappearing. And the basic question then remains: If Westeros has 40 million people, with on average a landed knight per village, then even if the average village has 200 people, (which does not appear to be the case) that requires something like 200,000 landed knights in Westeros. Which we know is not nearly the number that exists. Landed knights are only a fraction of the total number of knights, with there being maybe 10 oreven a hundred household knights for every landed knight. And all knights together make up maybe 10%-20% of the total armed strength that Westeros can raise. Westeros at most can raise 400,000 soldiers, meaning at most maybe 80,000 knights, but probably closer to 40,000 knights.

And of those, maybe 20% at best will be landed knights, as opposed to household knights, hedge knights etc. So most likely, there are around 10,000 landed knights in Westeros, at most. Meaning one landed knight for every 4000 people.

So if each landed knight on average rules only one village, of say 100 people per village, that gives you 1 million people. Who then rules all of the villages where the other 39 million people live?

There are untold number of towns, as seen in Cat quote and not every village needs to be ruled directly by a landed knight. Many of them would be ruled directly by a lesser lord and even more would belong to the lord of the lesser lord. 

As said above Rohanne Webber alone has 20 times the population of Osgreys. She's a lesser lord, vassal of a vassal. Osgreys had a score of lesser lords sworn to them. Merlyn with his single fishing village has several thousand people. I very much doubt that he has several landed knights ruling over portions of his village, since it surrounds his towerhouse (not even a castle) and no mention of any other tower houses.

During Tyrion and Jon's travel to the wall, they see many holdfasts and even stay in at least one of them, but can't recall of any petty lord or master who held the keep. In first Bran chapter, they get to a holdfast to take the deserter, again no mention of a master so these are owned directly by Starks (think of the three holdfasts on Redfork belonging to Darry, Vance and Piper)

Again, there would be landed knights with more than one village, some would be as powerful as Templetons, some may even own towns of note like Saltpans but from what we've seen so far average landed knight seems to have one village.

[Free Northman Reborn]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There are untold number of towns, as seen in Cat quote and not every village needs to be ruled directly by a landed knight. Many of them would be ruled directly by a lesser lord and even more would belong to the lord of the lesser lord. 

As said above Rohanne Webber alone has 20 times the population of Osgreys. She's a lesser lord, vassal of a vassal. Osgreys had a score of lesser lords sworn to them. Merlyn with his single fishing village has several thousand people. I very much doubt that he has several landed knights ruling over portions of his village, since it surrounds his towerhouse (not even a castle) and no mention of any other tower houses.

During Tyrion and Jon's travel to the wall, they see many holdfasts and even stay in at least one of them, but can't recall of any petty lord or master who held the keep. In first Bran chapter, they get to a holdfast to take the deserter, again no mention of a master so these are owned directly by Starks (think of the three holdfasts on Redfork belonging to Darry, Vance and Piper)

Again, there would be landed knights with more than one village, some would be as powerful as Templetons, some may even own towns of note like Saltpans but from what we've seen so far average landed knight seems to have one village.

Ironically, finding villages that don't have a lord or master present supports my point that they could all belong to a landed knight 5 miles away.

Simply put, 90% - 95% of the population will be rural, meaning they live in peasant villlages, not cities or towns.

Landed knights outnumber petty lords by a factor of about 8-10, apparently. So by limiting landed knights to only one village, you are simply increasing by an absurd amount the number of villages that each petty lord has to rule.

If there are 10,000 landed knights, ruling a combined 1 million people, the slack has to be picked up by the petty lords, who then have to be vastly more powerful than the landed knights, which is not the sense we are given.

And there is no need for it. We know the Knight of Ninestars can raise a 1000 men. Houses Glover and Tallhart are at the same level. So each of these knightly houses must rule hundreds, perhaps up to a thousand villages.

After all, we see Ser Eustace raise 6 poor sods from 3 villages, while Lady Webber raises around 50 or so men from 60 villages.

To raise a thousand men you would likely need 10-20 times Lady Webber's population, so we are talking a thousand villages easily for the most powerful knightly houses.

It therefore seems more likely that a poor landed knight will rule two or three small villages like Eustace Osgrey, while an average knight will fall somewhere between Ser Eustace and the Night of Nineatars. So a dozen or so villages don't seem unreasonable at all for an average landed knight. In fact, a score of villages might even be more common.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ironically, finding villages that don't have a lord or master present supports my point that they could all belong to a landed knight 5 miles away.

It goes both ways.

 

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Landed knights outnumber petty lords by a factor of about 8-10, apparently. So by limiting landed knights to only one village, you are simply increasing by an absurd amount the number of villages that each petty lord has to rule.

I'd say they outnumber them far more than 8-10 as these petty lords would have landed knights sworn to them as well, Inchfields are a likely example and Rambtons are certainly one.

 

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If there are 10,000 landed knights, ruling a combined 1 million people, the slack has to be picked up by the petty lords, who then have to be vastly more powerful than the landed knights, which is not the sense we are given.

And there is no need for it. We know the Knight of Ninestars can raise a 1000 men. Houses Glover and Tallhart are at the same level. So each of these knightly houses must rule hundreds, perhaps up to a thousand villages.

Yes I think the balance of power between the vassals of a greater lord would be in favour of the petty lords, who would have a few landed knights themselves.

Houses Glover and Tallhart are curious examples since they also have their vassals, wood clansmen for Glovers and the apparent petty nobility in Wild Hares (able to afford knightly gear and horses), Templetons would be the same. So just as my example above, this also cuts both ways; these knightly houses are extremely powerful but they have their own vassals with their own lands, they don't control all the villages.

11 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

After all, we see Ser Eustace raise 6 poor sods from 3 villages, while Lady Webber raises around 50 or so men from 60 villages.

Not such a good example because his peasants are openly disrespectful to Eustace as seen in their behaviour towards Dunk and Egg. Lady Webber also raises no men, she just takes a portion of her garrison, knights,squires and mounted crossbowmen, some 30 men in total so we have no idea on how many either can raise in ideal circumstances.

 

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seems more likely that a poor landed knight will rule two or three small villages like Eustace Osgrey, while an average knight will fall somewhere between Ser Eustace and the Night of Nineatars. So a dozen or so villages don't seem unreasonable at all for an average landed knight. In fact, a score of villages might even be more common.

Little finger has just one village, and he is a lord, smallest of small lords but a lord nonetheless. So even a lord may own just a tiny village and it wouldn't be something unheard of. Most Landed knights owning just one is entirely possible.

On another note, LF has no maester. Which is relevant to not this but a previous discussion

[Nittanian]

20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

as told, Gregor Cleagane only has the one village

Do you remember where that is mentioned? Sandor tells Sansa, "My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse".

[Corvo the Crow]

26 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Do you remember where that is mentioned? Sandor tells Sansa, "My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse".

 

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Sansa began to cry. He let go of her then, and snuffed out the torch in the dirt. "No pretty words for that, girl? No little compliment the septa taught you?" When there was no answer, he continued. "Most of them, they think it was some battle. A siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath." His laugh was softer this time, but just as bitter. "I'll tell you what it was, girl," he said, a voice from the night, a shadow leaning so close now that she could smell the sour stench of wine on his breath. "I was younger than you, six, maybe seven. A woodcarver set up shop in the village under my father's keep, and to buy favor he sent us gifts.

No mention whether this is their only village but no mention of any other villages either.

 

Also on how much land a petty lord/landed knight controls, though this is from Iron Islands.

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Harlaw is the most populous of the isles, Great Wyk the largest and the richest in ore, and Old Wyk the holiest, the place where the kings of salt and rock gathered in the Grey King's Hall of old to choose who would reign over them. Rugged, mountainous Orkmont was home to the Iron Kings of House Greyiron in centuries gone by. Pyke boasts Lordsport, the largest town in the islands, and is the seat of House Greyjoy, rulers over the islands since Aegon's Conquest. Blacktyde and Saltcliffe are less notable. The tower keeps of lesser lords stand on some of the smaller islets, beside miniscule fishing villages. Others are used for the grazing of sheep, while many more remain uninhabited.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

No mention whether this is their only village but no mention of any other villages either.

 

That simply confirms that there is a village below the keep, which would be the default situation. It by no means indicates that that is the only village he rules.

So in fact, the poorest landed knight we have definitive evidence for, has 3 villages. That would be Ser Eustace. Gregor Clegane could easily have a dozen or more. In fact, the impression is that he has a fair amount of armed men personally sworn to him, so he might even be in Lady Webber's league, for all we know.

Littlefinger is merely an example of someone with a noble title, but who is a commoner in all but name. The ultimate example of the "petty" in petty lord

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That simply confirms that there is a village below the keep, which would be the default situation. It by no means indicates that that is the only village he rules.

So in fact, the poorest landed knight we have definitive evidence for, has 3 villages. That would be Ser Eustace. Gregor Clegane could easily have a dozen or more. In fact, the impression is that he has a fair amount of armed men personally sworn to him, so he might even be in Lady Webber's league, for all we know.

Littlefinger is merely an example of someone with a noble title, but who is a commoner in all but name. The ultimate example of the "petty" in petty lord

Check also the quote from TWOIAF, which is further more support.