Military Strengths and More!

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Or he rates Massey as an average fighter, and therefore places half his men at Massey's level or higher. Your interpretation would make Massey equivalent to the weakest fighter in his army, which seems unlikely.

As for the horses, I also always interpreted it as about 60 southron horses left out of his original 800, and that this excludes the garrons of the Mountain Clansmen.

I took it as an expression similar to

"As ... as any men"

like this here

Quote

It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known."

Does that mean Greatjon is on the level of any men? He gets his fingers bitten off and laughs on it. We also see him during red wedding.

or here

Quote

"Ser Barristan is as valiant and honorable as any man in King's Landing." Ned had come to have a deep respect for the aged, white-haired Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

 

Does this mean men in king's landing are as honorable and valiant as Stannis? Barristan is probably the most honorable and valiant character we have (still living that is).

 

On horses, how many he would have at the Wall though? And how many would the clansmen have at start? Some 400 for Clansmen seems the right amount for me since not all of that 2000-3000 would have horses but most likely only the champions and such who also have mails and steel weapons.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I took it as an expression similar to

"As ... as any men"

like this here

Does that mean Greatjon is on the level of any men? He gets his fingers bitten off and laughs on it. We also see him during red wedding.

or here

 

Does this mean men in king's landing are as honorable and valiant as Stannis? Barristan is probably the most honorable and valiant character we have (still living that is).

 

On horses, how many he would have at the Wall though? And how many would the clansmen have at start? Some 400 for Clansmen seems the right amount for me since not all of that 2000-3000 would have horses but most likely only the champions and such who also have mails and steel weapons.

Stannis would have at least 2-3 horses per mounted knight. So 800 horses gives him at most 400 heavy cavalry at Deepwood, and possibly fewer. Remember, the 800 specifically includes palfreys, which are defined as "a docile horse used for ordinary riding, especially by women".

So 800 would be a bare minimum for Stannis to have any decent cavalry component in his 1300 southroners.

As for Massey, it is a matter of interpretation. I don't think Stannis has lost 500 or more men since Deepwood. The cold count is specifically given to us, and if I recall, it is not nearly high enough to have cost Stannis more than half his southroners.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Stannis would have at least 2-3 horses per mounted knight. So 800 horses gives him at most 400 heavy cavalry at Deepwood, and possibly fewer. Remember, the 800 specifically includes palfreys, which are defined as "a docile horse used for ordinary riding, especially by women".

So 800 would be a bare minimum for Stannis to have any decent cavalry component in his 1300 southroners.

As for Massey, it is a matter of interpretation. I don't think Stannis has lost 500 or more men since Deepwood. The cold count is specifically given to us, and if I recall, it is not nearly high enough to have cost Stannis more than half his southroners.

 

Under normal circumstances, yes. However his army is the broken remains of what it was, picked up after the battle of Blackwater by ships.

Unless they have somehow managed to carry the destriers across water in that short amount of time, or had time to go pick the palfreys which would be left in the camp since they aren't battle horses, Stannis possibly has less than a horse per Knight. Remember he has 1300 men left with more than half being Florents so ~700 knights, or other former riders would come just from the Florent portion and we see during the battle of Blackwater he has numerous bannermen.

Stannis doesn't have any decent cavalry component, he has a decent component(most of his men) that would be dismounted cavalry.

 

Also it is quite possible he is down to 500 of his own. Remember he leaves the wounded and crippled at castle black. and below are quotes on cold count.

 

Quote

By the ninth day of the storm, every camp saw the captains and commanders entering the king's tent wet and weary, to sink to one knee and report their losses for the day.

"One man dead, three missing."

"Six horses lost, one of them mine own."

Two dead men, one a knight. Four horses down. We got one up again. The others are lost. Destriers, and one palfrey."

The cold count, Asha heard it named. The baggage train suffered the worst: dead horses, lost men, wayns overturned and broken. "The horses founder in the snow," Justin Massey told the king. "Men wander off or just sit down to die."

This is just two of the captains and between them they have 6 men and  9 horses lost.

 

Quote

On the twenty-sixth day of the fifteen-day march, the last of the vegetables was consumed. On the thirty-second day, the last of the grain and fodder. Asha wondered how long a man could live on raw, half-frozen horse meat.

...

Justin Massey looked up from his horsemeat. "The cold count last night reached eighty." He pulled a piece of gristle from his teeth and flicked it to the nearest dog. "If we march, we will die by the hundreds."

 

So it makes this cold count reaching 80 seem as if it's just that night's count. If every day he lost just half of the 6 that is only the losses of two captains we see, it would still make the cold count more than 80. By this time Stannis would have lost several hundred men of his 5000 strength that he reports to Jon and many would be the men he has brought.

[divica]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Or he rates Massey as an average fighter, and therefore places half his men at Massey's level or higher. Your interpretation would make Massey equivalent to the weakest fighter in his army, which seems unlikely.

 

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also another thing on Stannis' current strength

This five hundred could be how many men he has left from what he brought North. Or it could just be how many knights left of that. 

Stannis had heavy losses due to the cold (the las cold count was 80) but he can t have lost 1000 men. Don t forget he subdued karstark 450 men easily in that chapter... besides, if so many had died we would know it. Someone would have said something.

On the other hand if we consider that the 800 horses were the southern horses and that as you have said the knights only had space to bring 1 horse each then things make more sense.

Basically stannis initially would have around 700 knights and lost 200 of them to the cold and 300 or 400 common soldiers because we are told that the common soldiers are the ones that suffer more with the cold. This would put stannis army around 800 to 1000 men.

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the horses, I also always interpreted it as about 60 southron horses left out of his original 800, and that this excludes the garrons of the Mountain Clansmen.

 

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It doesn't give us the idea that few garrons have died, it only says even the garrons are dying. Compared to palfreys and destriers, yeah a bigger portion of them have survived, but it doesn't mean much by itself as almost all the destriers are dead and most of the palfreys. A lot of the garrons would be dead too, due to lack of fodder.

 

From my earlier posts, a column could be as few as a hundred, a wedge, two dozen. So Stannis may had just 400-500 horse or so at start and the text would support it:

I read it again. I think you are right and that the garrons might be included in the 800. However I also think very few of the garrons have died (that is the implicit idea). So as the brave 64 horses still include southern worses and nost of the garrons then the clansmen would have brought very few garrons. Maybe 50? And we still have more than 700 southern horses in the initial count which makes sense.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I read it differently. The cumulative cold count reached 80.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I read it differently. The cumulative cold count reached 80.

It is just two of the captains we see and they give a total count of 6 dead man just for 9th day of the march, which is when the cold count starts.

How many captains do you think Stannis would have?

Quote

The wrong-way rangers. Massey and Horpe had ridden south, not north. Whatever they had learned did not concern the Night's Watch, but Jon was curious all the same. "If it would please His Grace." He followed the young squire back across the yard. Ghost padded after them until Jon said, "No. Stay!" Instead the direwolf ran off.

In the King's Tower, Jon was stripped of his weapons and admitted to the royal presence. The solar was hot and crowded. Stannis and his captains were gathered over the map of the north. The wrong-way rangers were amongst them. Sigorn was there as well, the young Magnar of Thenn, clad in a leather hauberk sewn with bronze scales. Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."

Jon ignored him and took a knee. "Your Grace," announced the squire Devan, "I've brought Lord Snow."

"I can see that. Lord Commander. You know my knights and captains, I believe."

"I have that honor." He had made it a point to learn all he could of the men around the king. Queen's men, all. It struck Jon as odd that there were no king's men about the king, but that seemed to be the way of it. The king's men had incurred Stannis's ire on Dragonstone if the talk Jon heard was true.

...

King Stannis said, "Lord Snow, tell me of Mors Umber."

The Night's Watch takes no part, Jon thought, but another voice within him said, Words are not swords. "The elder of the Greatjon's uncles. Crowfood, they call him. A crow once took him for dead and pecked out his eye. He caught the bird in his fist and bit its head off. When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago."

"That's why he wants the head," said Harwood Fell.

"Can this man Mors be trusted?" asked Stannis.

Has Mors Umber bent the knee? "Your Grace should have him swear an oath before his heart tree."

Godry the Giantslayer guffawed. "I had forgotten that you northmen worship trees."

"What sort of god lets himself be pissed upon by dogs?" asked Farring's crony Clayton Suggs.

...

"I know all about your vows. Spare me your rectitude, Lord Snow, I have strength enough without you. I have a mind to march against the Dreadfort." When he saw the shock on Jon's face, he smiled. "Does that surprise you? Good. What surprises one Snow may yet surprise another. The Bastard of Bolton has gone south, taking Hother Umber with him. On that Mors Umber and Arnolf Karstark are agreed. That can only mean a strike at Moat Cailin, to open the way for his lord father to return to the north. The bastard must think I am too busy with the wildlings to trouble him. Well and good. The boy has shown me his throat. I mean to rip it out. Roose Bolton may regain the north, but when he does he will find that his castle, herds, and harvest all belong to me. If I take the Dreadfort unawares—"

"You won't," Jon blurted.

It was as if he whacked a wasps' nest with a stick. One of the queen's men laughed, one spat, one muttered a curse, and the rest all tried to talk at once. "The boy has milkwater in his veins," said Ser Godry the Giantslayer. And Lord Sweet huffed, "The craven sees an outlaw behind every blade of grass."

 

That is 6 men, at the very least. I am not including Magnar and "Rattleshirt" as Stannis left them on the Wall.

There are mention of other people in other chapters too, like Peasebury and Corlis Penny

Say, each captain reports a single dead every day. From day 9 to day 32 mentioned in the quote, how many would it make?

North man are occasionaly losing men too, by the way.

Quote

 

The northmen fared much better, with their garrons and their bear-paws. Black Donnel Flint and his half-brother Artos only lost one man between them. The Liddles, the Wulls, and the Norreys lost none at all. One of Morgan Liddle's mules had gone astray, but he seemed to think the Flints had stolen him.

One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. Three hundred miles as the raven flies. Fifteen days. The fifteenth day of the march came and went, and they had crossed less than half the distance. A trail of broken wayns and frozen corpses stretched back behind them, buried beneath the blowing snow. The sun and moon and stars had been gone so long that Asha was starting to wonder whether she had dreamed them.

 

 

[divica]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I read it differently. The cumulative cold count reached 80.

Quote

Justin Massey looked up from his horsemeat. "The cold count last night reached eighty." He pulled a piece of gristle from his teeth and flicked it to the nearest dog. "If we march, we will die by the hundreds."

"We will die by the thousands if we stay here," said Ser Humfrey Clifton. "Press on or die, I say."

If it was the cumulative it wouldn t be such a concern. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/5/2018 at 8:53 AM, divica said:

I have started a topic about how many fighting men stannis has before the battle of ice. So If you have time I would be interested to know how many men you think stannis will have when the battle starts and after the battle.... I am of the opinion that whatever happens stannis broke his army on that march.

I think if we look at this quote

The 1500 must be the fighting men. The only doubt is if that includes the squires... 

And you can also add that stannis brought 800 horses to the Wall so he has about 700 knights with him.

 

Squires are considered fighters. More often than not they are older men without the means to become knights. GRRM and the books both address this:

We tend to think of squires as teenaged boys, knights in training, but that is only part of the truth. Historically, there were many men who spent their entire lives as squires, and never became knights. It was quite common to have thirty- and forty-year-old squires, even some in their fifties. Such men perhaps did not have the wealth to become knights (knights had to pay for their own equipment), or perhaps did not have the inclination. They were the medieval counterparts of the career army sergeant who has no desire to be promoted to lieutenant. Let alone general."

Ser Wylis and his brother Ser Wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty-odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot, armed with spears, pikes and tridents.

Olyvar Frey was squire to Robb and protected him at the Whispering Wood.

Podrick killed Mandon Moore. 

Jon was basically Jeor's squire and he considered a fighter, being sent on the mission with Qhorin.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

So let's get this straight, just to clarify Stannis's situation.

They have only lost 1 Clansman, but they have lost as many as 80 southroners in a single night. That means that Stannis could be down to less than 500 of his original men, is that correct?

Meaning his current army conceivably consists of:

2500 Clansmen

1000+ Hornwoods, Wolfswood men, Stony Shore men and other random mainland Northerners

Maybe 300 Mormonts (wild guess)

500 southron soldiers

For a total of around 4500, rather than the "5000 and growing every day" number he quoted before the start of the march?

[divica]

38 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So let's get this straight, just to clarify Stannis's situation.

They have only lost 1 Clansman, but they have lost as many as 80 southroners in a single night. That means that Stannis could be down to less than 500 of his original men, is that correct?

Meaning his current army conceivably consists of:

2500 Clansmen

1000+ Hornwoods, Wolfswood men, Stony Shore men and other random mainland Northerners

Maybe 300 Mormonts (wild guess)

500 southron soldiers

For a total of around 4500, rather than the "5000 and growing every day" number he quoted before the start of the march?

The big question is if stannis is down to 500 knights or 500 fighting men (because of stannis saying he has 500 swords as good as massey in theon's chapter).

To me he has 500 knights so his total soutern army would be a little less than 1000 soldiers. Maybe 800 or 900...

But.if you find text supporting the 500 fighting men I am ok with it...

However, with the upcoming battle stannis is at least 6 days from winterfell and we know his army spent 1 more night in simillar conditions to the night they lost 80 men (previous night to theon's chapter). So stannis will still lose a lot of men. I don t think he can only have 500 total.

 

[The Drunkard]

His comment about having 500 swords or better may not be specifically referring to his southerners. For the purposes of fighting for Stannis in the upcoming battle (which is Massey's reason for staying) there's no reason to distinguish between northern and southern soldiers. Stannis probably doesn't rate the clansmen or the peasants very highly, and if Massey is completely average, that 500 could be around half the remaining southerners and a hundred or two of the Winterfell soldiers being considered better than Massey. 

[Corvo the Crow]

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So let's get this straight, just to clarify Stannis's situation.

They have only lost 1 Clansman, but they have lost as many as 80 southroners in a single night. That means that Stannis could be down to less than 500 of his original men, is that correct?

Meaning his current army conceivably consists of:

2500 Clansmen

1000+ Hornwoods, Wolfswood men, Stony Shore men and other random mainland Northerners

Maybe 300 Mormonts (wild guess)

500 southron soldiers

For a total of around 4500, rather than the "5000 and growing every day" number he quoted before the start of the march?

One clansmen lost is for that day only. His host would be 5000 and growing every day at the time he wrote that letter but he would start losing men after the ninth day, the day cold counts start. I don't think losses would be so severe every day; in one of the days day lose just a single man but that day they don't even move for a mile. The day we saw 80 would be among the highest casualties in a single day. In the end, he may barely have 4000 or maybe not even that; Theon says Roose has five or six thousand, more than him.

[Corvo the Crow]

10 hours ago, divica said:

The big question is if stannis is down to 500 knights or 500 fighting men (because of stannis saying he has 500 swords as good as massey in theon's chapter).

To me he has 500 knights so his total soutern army would be a little less than 1000 soldiers. Maybe 800 or 900...

But.if you find text supporting the 500 fighting men I am ok with it...

However, with the upcoming battle stannis is at least 6 days from winterfell and we know his army spent 1 more night in simillar conditions to the night they lost 80 men (previous night to theon's chapter). So stannis will still lose a lot of men. I don t think he can only have 500 total.

 

Even if that 500 is just knights and Stannis is comparing Justin with other knights only, he wouldn't have that many fighting men, since knights seem to fare a bit better than common soldiers and Stannis had more knights than common soldiers to begin with.

I'd like to point out that knight shouldn't neccesarily be knight on horseback, dismounted knights should count too, since of the 1300 men he had on dragonstone, more than half were Florents, all from the rider/knight portion of Florent army and we see the sigils(or themselves) of many other knights and lords during and after the attack.

Stannis leaves a "skeleton garrison" on Dragonstone, a castle that normally has more than 400 men for garrison. Since we often hear a man on the Wall is worth ten below and a thousand men die on Loras' attack, Stannis' garrison would be more or less 100.

Attacking on Mance with 1200 men, he still has more than a thousand left after the attack, Sam says. But he leaves the sick, old, crippled, wounded and such behind. So my guess is he had fewer than 1000 southrons when he took Deepwood. 1000 who would mostly be knights, with or without horses due to the circumstances of the withdrawal of Blackwater. So whether 500 knights left or 500 total, both of them would be more or less correct, with not so many common soldiers to begin with.

[Corvo the Crow]

This will be on population of the North

"All the men" going of to war is a common theme with Northern lords, but how true is it?

 Below is information on the "demesne" of Varamyr

Quote

Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon's, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens. His meat he got himself. Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he'd cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Runts. Small, puny things, like Lump, and not one with the gift.

A dozen villages with orchards and gardens. These villages aren't too small either, having people enough to send many a woman to Varamyr's bed or send the occasional hero, whose death seemingly not affecting the survival of the village, so losing a man from time to time is affordable.

 

This is the gift

Quote

 

"What happened to them?"

"They died or went away." Brandon's Gift had been farmed for thousands of years, but as the Watch dwindled there were fewer hands to plow the fields, tend the bees, and plant the orchards, so the wild had reclaimed many a field and hall. In the New Gift there had been villages and holdfasts whose taxes, rendered in goods and labor, helped feed and clothe the black brothers. But those were largely gone as well.

 

 

So beyond the wall isn't much more different than the North, it seems. At least during the summer.

And this is the Vale as Catelyn sees for the first time

Quote

The sun was well to the west by the time the slope began to flatten beneath the hooves of their horses. The road widened and grew straight, and for the first time Catelyn noticed wildflowers and grasses growing. Once they reached the valley floor, the going was faster and they made good time, cantering through verdant greenwoods and sleepy little hamlets, past orchards and golden wheat fields, splashing across a dozen sunlit streams. Her uncle sent a standard-bearer ahead of them, a double banner flying from his staff; the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn on high, and below it his own black fish. Farm wagons and merchants' carts and riders from lesser houses moved aside to let them pass.

 

So a village beyond the wall is not unlike one in any other place in westeros.

 

With this knowledge at hand, we know Mance, after he had gathered everyone beyond the wall (with perhaps the exception of few like Craster) has 30000 or so people before his great march south begins.

This should give us some ideas on Northern population.

[Corvo the Crow]

I wanted to make another pass on the strength of Manderlys, well, at least on their vassals, using Clansmen for lordlings and Eustace for landed knights.

They have 12 lesser lords and 100 landed knights. Average landed knight seems to have just one village and from Eustace Osgrey and Petyr Baelish, have fewer than 10 household guards; Eustace has 2-3(Bennis Dunk and Egg), Petyr has 1-6(Bryen at drearyfort, Lothor Brune and Kettleblacks) Though we also have Hoggs, with 6 men at arms and 4 crossbowmen.

Clansmen raise 2000-3000 men for Stannis and perhaps 500(as commonly thought) for Robb. Let's be generous and say they have 4000 men in total. There are 40 clans and they are the equivalents off lesser lords, Jon says. So with the average of 100 men per clan, someone who is able to raise 100 men(actually lower since Wulls and Flints are much more powerful than the rest) can be considered a lesser lord.

Manderly has 12 such lords sworn to him, giving him 1200 men from just the levies of this lesser lords(as I believe clansmen don't have much in the name of household guards, with most having no castles or such) From Rohanne Webber we see a lesser lord easily being able to take 30 household guards off to battle. Let's be conservative and say the average lesser lord would have 20 household guards and she is richer than average and was able to take a bigger portion because it was in her own lands. 

1450 men From lesser lords.

Eustace Osgrey had 8 men from  3 villages and average landed knights seems to have just 1 but his villagers don't give a rat's are about him. If the average landed knight raises just 5 peasants as levy This is another 500. with just 2 fighting men joining from the household guard and knights family, it's another 200

2150 just from his vassals and that with being conservative.

King's landing last had 6000 guards, and possibly a peace time population of 300-350 k(half a million includes up to 100k troops and refugees of unknown number)

If all cities have roughly equal ratios of residents to guards, White Harbor which is guessed to have 50k people would then have 1000-1200 guards.

Coincdentally, the Infantry part of Manderlys, which seems to have mostly come from the city(same equipment as Davos sees in the guards in the city) numbers 1250 or so.

So even using lower end numbers, Manderlys seem to have around 3500 men. It would actually be a lot higher than that as they control a city and have a huge portion of the land in a better part of the North

Of this strength we have only seen a bit above 2000 so far. (1500 going south, 300 with Rodrik, 300 in Winterfell). Manderly still has more heavy cavalry than any other lord in the North, meaning at least 500 and if he has the infantry to use the most common 1:3 ratio, he has a lot more than 4000 men in total.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Landed knights go from the impoverished House Osgrey, with 3 soldiers, at the very bottom, right up to House Templeton with more than 1000 men. It is not correct to use House Osgrey as a typical example. They are at the point of extinction due to poverty and decline. 

Heck, even Gregor Clegane seems to have far more wealth and manpower as a Landed Knight, than House Osgrey had.

A hundred Landed Knights seems like a number reserved for only very powerful lords, as we note that House Osgrey at the height of their power when they were Wardens of the Northmarch commanded that many.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Landed knights go from the impoverished House Osgrey, with 3 soldiers, at the very bottom, right up to House Templeton with more than 1000 men. It is not correct to use House Osgrey as a typical example. They are at the point of extinction due to poverty and decline. 

Heck, even Gregor Clegane seems to have far more wealth and manpower as a Landed Knight, than House Osgrey had.

A hundred Landed Knights seems like a number reserved for only very powerful lords, as we note that House Osgrey at the height of their power when they were Wardens of the Northmarch commanded that many.

 

 

Right, that's why I said "lower end numbers". To establish a smallest number possible.

Manderlys lesser lords would be more powerful than the average clan of fewer than 100 possible fighters, having both more wealth and better land, not to mention controlling a much larger area in total.

 

I am also interested in what you think on population comparison of north and beyond the wall.

Varamyr's dozen villages seem like any other in westeros, men of the frozen shore basically live the same way as the most powerful mountain clan wulls, fishing the bay of ice, valley of Thenn must be large/fertile enough that of the 1000 captives, there are 200 Thenns(out of 300 men of fighting age), with another 100 dead with Magnar. The 1000 Stannis killed possibly also had a good number of Thenns, seeing as they are the best warriors of free folk and had so many got captured. Not to mention any Thenns that Tormund or weeper or mother mole may have.

All this and many other groups combined only make 30000 or so when Jon joins at a time that WWs aren't at Mance's heels yet that he is Abel to sit idly digging barrows.

Varamyr alone controls 500 people or more if every village has 40+ people

Thenns would have more than a thousand even if they only have just the 300 men of fighting age.

Tormund's some 3000 is able to provide a hundred sons of notable fighters and chiefs.

With these in mind Westeros, at least the North, doesn't seem to   be so populated that "all the men are gone" has some truth to it.

 

For another comparison, Ironborn who send off most of their men(even boys) and the entirety of their fleet is only able to turn up with fewer than 20000 men (400 ships, 80-100 men for 100 Iron fleet ships and 30 or maybe fewer for longships)

[Corvo the Crow]

One small thing on Bolton strength, we know Walton Steelshanks has 200 mounted men with him and I've argued before that Roose can't have this many cavalry as with his some 500, Manderly knights and whatever other cavalry he has lost, it would be exceeding the 1/10 of Robb's cavalry by quite a lot.

I've come across this

Quote

Brienne got back to her knees, clutching the sword and breathing short ragged breaths. Steelshanks's archers were winding their crossbows and reloading while the Bloody Mummers shouted curses and threats at them. Rorge and Three Toes had swords out, Jaime saw, and Zollo was uncoiling his whip.

These men aren't cavalry, they are mounted infantry not unlike mountain clansmen or Rohanne Webber's crossbowmen we see.

[Free Northman Reborn]

30 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One small thing on Bolton strength, we know Walton Steelshanks has 200 mounted men with him and I've argued before that Roose can't have this many cavalry as with his some 500, Manderly knights and whatever other cavalry he has lost, it would be exceeding the 1/10 of Robb's cavalry by quite a lot.

I've come across this

These men aren't cavalry, they are mounted infantry not unlike mountain clansmen or Rohanne Webber's crossbowmen we see.

Where is it ever stated that all of Bolton's cavalry went with him? We don' t know how many went with Robb.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Where is it ever stated that all of Bolton's cavalry went with him? We don' t know how many went with Robb.

I am talking about the portion with infantry.