Military Strengths and More!

[Corvo the Crow]

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Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey. So much for his father's certainty that Lord Walder would not bestir himself. The white of House Stark was seen everywhere, the grey direwolves seeming to run and leap as the banners swirled and streamed from the high staffs. Where is the boy? Tyrion wondered.

Tyrion's flank in Green Fork

 

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"What's wrong?" Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

A stupid princess, she thought, that's nothing to cry over. "My brothers might be dead," she confided.

From the same chapter we learn about fifteen hundred but taking place later.

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"I have been Lord Tywin's captive once," said Ser Hosteen, a husky man with a square face who was said to be the strongest of the Freys. "I have no wish to enjoy Lannister hospitality again."

Also from the same chapter.

So four Freys were taken captive but they lost only a few men? Makes no sense. Sending forces back to Twins in the midst of war also doesn't make sense. Freys only take their forces back because Robb betrayed them but they only learn it later in the same chapter we learn they had 1500 remaining out of the 2600 they gave to Robb.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tyrion's flank in Green Fork

 

From the same chapter we learn about fifteen hundred but taking place later.

Also from the same chapter.

So four Freys were taken captive but they lost only a few men? Makes no sense. Sending forces back to Twins in the midst of war also doesn't make sense. Freys only take their forces back because Robb betrayed them but they only learn it later in the same chapter we learn they had 1500 remaining out of the 2600 they gave to Robb.

There were an estimated 5000 Northern losses at the Green Fork, as per the wiki. The Freys consisted of about 15% of that force (2600/17000). Even if they shared equally in the losses suffered - meaning they lost men in the same proportion as the other lords - they would only have lost around 750 men in that battle.

As for the cavalry in the West: If Robb lost only 200 men (I'm going by your statement for this number as I don't recall the reference) among his cavalry - which outnumbered the Frey cavalry - then the Freys would have lost considerably less among their cavalry, being only about a sixth of Robb's cavalry force at most. Let's make it 100 Frey cavalry lost in the West.

That brings their total losses to around 850 men. But that's if they lost the same amount as other lords in Bolton's army. Hosteen is the reckless one, hence his capture. Aenys was the one in charge, and he was more cautious. And was indeed the one who retreated in good order with Roose. We know few if any Boltons were lost in that battle. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the Freys similarly suffered lighter losses than the average. Which would reduce their total losses even further, perhaps to as low as 500 men to date.

Which once again brings us to between 4500-5000 Freys raised in total, with peasants with sharp sticks replacing the dead to bring their current numbers back to 4000 men in the field.

[direpupy]

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

200 for Winterfell isn't considered high, 200 for Riverrun which is a smaller castle as castles go was. Twins being garrisoned by 100 men is very low, considering it isn't a single castle but actually two castles with an additional tower/keep in the middle. Twins having 400 garrison is only after Tallhart leaves with his 400 and even then they have Roose's 10000 survivng men between them and Tywin. If Twins were average sized then 400 in total would be little over their normal garrison anyway; Rook's Rest an average sized castle at best having a 100 men garrison should mean each of the Twins would have over 100 men as garrison and some small number in the middle tower/keep, so 300 men perhaps. 800 with Tallharts was an extremely large garrison even for Twins, 400 is not so much, at least for Twins.

And peasants with sticks or not it doesn't matter, it just shows that they ran out of equipment, the original 3000 we see is no standing army either so most of them came from the same place as the peasants with pointy sticks.

Just my own observations here.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing, had assembled a force of near four thousand men at his castles on the Green Fork.

later in the same chapter

Lord Walder will grant you your crossing. His swords are yours as well, less four hundred he means to keep back to hold the Twins.

Near, so a little less then 4000 and his garrison of 400 is part of this number, so the actual strengt fielded by the freys would be more like 3500 a 1000 of this is horse who go with Robb so that leaves 2500 men that go with Roose Bolton. So if there are only 1500 at Harrenhall they would have lost a 1000 men in battle up to that point, not counting the losses they take to the horse that went with Robb

15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Robb lost 200 from his 6000 if I remember right, assuming an equal casualty rate for all this means Freys lost ~35 men there let's say the losses on Westerlands were few as well and they had 900 horseman left in total.

You yourself have stated that the probably lost only a few men in battle there so lets say a 100 total, that leaves 2400 men in the field and 400 as garrison so about 2800 men of they original number. Assuming they stick with the 400 men garrison then in order to get to 4000 in the field they must raise approximatly 1600 new men.

And as to the whole peasant thing, this the description of the Frey troops in that same chapter

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder's bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.

So certainly not peasants with sharpened sticks these men would have at least some training and obvieusly good equipment, these would be Yeomen farmers who get a piece of land in exchange for service in time of war. The peasants with sticks are not Yeomen but untrained serfs who get called up because they have no trained men left. I agree with Free Northmen that it does matter, they are conscripting people who's ability to actually make a differens on the battlefield is limited and i would hesitate to call these men part of the fighting strengt a house can field.

So i would say that house frey may have raised about 5500 men but with many of them being untrained and unequipped peasant serfs there fighting strenght would probably be no more then 5000.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

There were an estimated 5000 Northern losses at the Green Fork, as per the wiki. The Freys consisted of about 15% of that force (2600/17000). Even if they shared equally in the losses suffered - meaning they lost men in the same proportion as the other lords - they would only have lost around 750 men in that battle.

As for the cavalry in the West: If Robb lost only 200 men (I'm going by your statement for this number as I don't recall the reference) among his cavalry - which outnumbered the Frey cavalry - then the Freys would have lost considerably less among their cavalry, being only about a sixth of Robb's cavalry force at most. Let's make it 100 Frey cavalry lost in the West.

That brings their total losses to around 850 men. But that's if they lost the same amount as other lords in Bolton's army. Hosteen is the reckless one, hence his capture. Aenys was the one in charge, and he was more cautious. And was indeed the one who retreated in good order with Roose. We know few if any Boltons were lost in that battle. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the Freys similarly suffered lighter losses than the average. Which would reduce their total losses even further, perhaps to as low as 500 men to date.

Which once again brings us to between 4500-5000 Freys raised in total, with peasants with sharp sticks replacing the dead to bring their current numbers back to 4000 men in the field.

Wiki page is full of wrong stuff especially when it comes to numbers.

Robb had 19500 men at MC, we don't know how many he left behind but Ned intended for a garrison of 200, for starters at least.

Walder has 4000 men.

When Walder joins Robb, they have 23500 men minus the MC garrison. They leave 800 men to garrison Twins, Robb takes 9/10 of the cavalry and Roose takes 1/10 cavalry and all the remaining foot.

Robb has 6000 men in whispering wood, which includes not only his 9/10 cavalry but also Mallisters, some lordlings and some survivors from Riverrun.

When Edmure plans against Tywin, Roose has 10000 left.

Let's assume MC garrisoned as Eddard planned, it leaves 22500 figthing men for Roose and Robb. Robb's 6000 wasn't all northmen and Freys but let's also assume that, to minimize Roose's casualties. It still leaves Roose 16500 men, meaning he lost 6500 even if no riverman other than Freys joined Robb, which isn't true.

For Wiki's 5000 to be true, Robb need to have left a garrison of 1700 in MC and zero riverlander contribution to his 6000.

 

As you can see, wiki pages are unreliable when it comes to numbers/calculations.

 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

Just my own observations here.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing, had assembled a force of near four thousand men at his castles on the Green Fork.

later in the same chapter

Lord Walder will grant you your crossing. His swords are yours as well, less four hundred he means to keep back to hold the Twins.

Near, so a little less then 4000 and his garrison of 400 is part of this number, so the actual strengt fielded by the freys would be more like 3500 a 1000 of this is horse who go with Robb so that leaves 2500 men that go with Roose Bolton. So if there are only 1500 at Harrenhall they would have lost a 1000 men in battle up to that point, not counting the losses they take to the horse that went with Robb

You yourself have stated that the probably lost only a few men in battle there so lets say a 100 total, that leaves 2400 men in the field and 400 as garrison so about 2800 men of they original number. Assuming they stick with the 400 men garrison then in order to get to 4000 in the field they must raise approximatly 1600 new men.

And as to the whole peasant thing, this the description of the Frey troops in that same chapter

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder's bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.

So certainly not peasants with sharpened sticks these men would have at least some training and obvieusly good equipment, these would be Yeomen farmers who get a piece of land in exchange for service in time of war. The peasants with sticks are not Yeomen but untrained serfs who get called up because they have no trained men left. I agree with Free Northmen that it does matter, they are conscripting people who's ability to actually make a differens on the battlefield is limited and i would hesitate to call these men part of the fighting strengt a house can field.

So i would say that house frey may have raised about 5500 men but with many of them being untrained and unequipped peasant serfs there fighting strenght would probably be no more then 5000.

I think the quote below is very explaining of the levy.

 

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And yet there was sense in what they said. This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. "Marching is all very well," she said to her son, "but where, and to what purpose? What do you mean to do?"

I doubt most fishermen would keep a ringmail and a pike, I think you'll agree.

 

Of course besides the household guards and retainer knights there are some landed knights / masters that have their own equipment but most would just be commonfolk with no training or equipment. It is their lord who trains and equips them when time for war comes.

Tyrion preparing KL's defenses and Eustace Osgrey's levy are good examples. Night's Watch is also a very good example, there are some who came with their own equipment, like Waymar Royce but most don't own any combat gear so it is their lord (commander) that equips them and have them trained.

 

[direpupy]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wiki page is full of wrong stuff especially when it comes to numbers.

Robb had 19500 men at MC, we don't know how many he left behind but Ned intended for a garrison of 200, for starters at least.

Walder has 4000 men.

When Walder joins Robb, they have 23500 men minus the MC garrison. They leave 800 men to garrison Twins, Robb takes 9/10 of the cavalry and Roose takes 1/10 cavalry and all the remaining foot.

Robb has 6000 men in whispering wood, which includes not only his 9/10 cavalry but also Mallisters, some lordlings and some survivors from Riverrun.

When Edmure plans against Tywin, Roose has 10000 left.

Let's assume MC garrisoned as Eddard planned, it leaves 22500 figthing men for Roose and Robb. Robb's 6000 wasn't all northmen and Freys but let's also assume that, to minimize Roose's casualties. It still leaves Roose 16500 men, meaning he lost 6500 even if no riverman other than Freys joined Robb, which isn't true.

For Wiki's 5000 to be true, Robb need to have left a garrison of 1700 in MC and zero riverlander contribution to his 6000.

 

As you can see, wiki pages are unreliable when it comes to numbers/calculations.

so i see some problems here starting with Edmure's numbers, his 10000 is an educated guess on his part because he does not actually know how many troops Roose has at this point. I would not take that number at face valeu.

Next your statement that the wiki numbers are wrong there is a reason these numbers have a small link behind them this sends you to te actuall calculation.

Now you may disagree with the calculation but not looking at it at all as you are doing now is just stupid, so please just look at the calculation and then tell me where you think they went wrong.

The calculation of Robb's forces:

Robb's initial Northern force consists of 19,500 men (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn VII), with slightly more than 1/4 being heavy cavalry (A Game of Thrones, Bran VI gives the figures of 3,300-3,400 heavy cavalry out of an initial muster of 12,000). This would suggest ~14,500 infantry and ~5,000 heavy cavalry in his Northern host. He is joined by 4,000 men of House Frey (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn IX), whose forces have a heavy cavalry-to-infantry ratio of 1-to-4 (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn II). His total force after this therefore consists of 23,500 soldiers (17,500 infantry, 6,000 heavy cavalry). He leaves 400 Frey infantry and 400 Northern infantry at the Twins with a mix of swordsmen/spearmen and archers (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn IX), and orders a small garrison, mostly archers, to be left at Moat Cailin (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn VII). Earlier, Eddard Stark had stated that "two hundred determined archers [at Moat Cailin] can hold the Neck against an army." (A Game of Thrones, Eddard IV). By leaving these 1,000 infantry behind in garrisons, this brings Robb's army back to 22,500 men (16,500 infantry, 6,000 heavy cavalry). Robb then splits his army, leaving all of the infantry and one-tenth of the heavy cavalry (~600) under the command of Roose Bolton, and taking the rest of the heavy cavalry (~5,400) under his personal command to the Whispering Wood (A Game of Thrones, Catelyn IX). Thus, Roose Bolton's host is about 17,100 troops in total (16,500 infantry, 600 heavy cavalry).

And the calculation of the losses at the Green Fork:

The casualties Roose's forces took on the Green Fork can be calculated by going backwards from what he ends with at the Red Wedding. There, he claims to have 3,500 men with him (almost entirely Bolton men) and another 600 guarding a ford, with 200 Bolton riders having previously been sent to escort Jaime to King's Landing under Steelshanks (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VI), for a total of 4,300 remaining soldiers (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn VI). In chronological order from after the Green Fork, his host suffered the following major changes to its strength: 400 men Robb originally left at the Twins joined it under Edmure's orders (A Clash of Kings, Catelyn V). ~1,000 Karstark troops deserted him and took to the countryside following Robb's execution of their lord according to Roose (A Storm of Swords, Jaime V). The 1,500 Frey soldiers (A Clash of Kings, Arya X) who were with Roose by the time he took Harrenhal pulled out like the rest of the Frey men due to the Stark-Frey marriage pact being broken. ~3,000 soldiers (said to be 1/3 of Roose's remaining infantry at the time) were sent to Duskendale (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn IV) where they were smashed. Finally, ~2,050 soldiers were left to die at Ruby Ford (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn VI). This would mean Roose's host underwent a net loss of ~7,200 troops between the aftermath of the Green Fork and the Red Wedding, where he had 4,300 troops left. Therefore Roose's host had ~11,500 troops before any of these events, meaning losses on the Green Fork could not have exceeded ~5,600 men. Note that this is an upper ceiling rather than a concrete figure for this losses in the battle, as possible losses to Roose's from various small skirmishes and sieges in the Riverlands must also be considered.

I am looking forward to seeing your comments on these calculations.

[direpupy]

21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think the quote below is very explaining of the levy.

 

I doubt most fishermen would keep a ringmail and a pike, I think you'll agree.

 

Of course besides the household guards and retainer knights there are some landed knights / masters that have their own equipment but most would just be commonfolk with no training or equipment. It is their lord who trains and equips them when time for war comes.

Tyrion preparing KL's defenses and Eustace Osgrey's levy are good examples. Night's Watch is also a very good example, there are some who came with their own equipment, like Waymar Royce but most don't own any combat gear so it is their lord (commander) that equips them and have them trained.

 

No i do not agree with you, if they have the status of Yeomen they would still have a military obligation.

Both Tyrion's defences and Osgrey's levy are acts of desperation not the normal calling to arms, and as for the Nigths Watch unless you join voluntarily you are a criminal and would have been stripped of everything you own as part of your punishment. So they are about the worst example you could have given, they are so far from whats normal that you can only use them as a example of how it would not be done normally.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

No i do not agree with you, if they have the status of Yeomen they would still have a military obligation.

Both Tyrion's defences and Osgrey's levy are acts of desperation not the normal calling to arms, and as for the Nigths Watch unless you join voluntarily you are a criminal and would have been stripped of everything you own as part of your punishment. So they are about the worst example you could have given, they are so far from whats normal that you can only use them as a example of how it would not be done normally.

Satin has joined voluntarily, was he stripped of the arms and armor he had?

I am not saying there are no yeoman-likes; as I said we have landed knights and masters, but not all the fighting men own their own lands, as Catelyn describes in the chapter herself.

[Corvo the Crow]

26 minutes ago, direpupy said:

so i see some problems here starting with Edmure's numbers, his 10000 is an educated guess on his part because he does not actually know how many troops Roose has at this point. I would not take that number at face valeu.

Next your statement that the wiki numbers are wrong there is a reason these numbers have a small link behind them this sends you to te actuall calculation.

And the calculation of the losses at the Green Fork:

The casualties Roose's forces took on the Green Fork can be calculated by going backwards from what he ends with at the Red Wedding. There, he claims to have 3,500 men with him (almost entirely Bolton men) and another 600 guarding a ford, with 200 Bolton riders having previously been sent to escort Jaime to King's Landing under Steelshanks (A Storm of Swords, Jaime VI), for a total of 4,300 remaining soldiers (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn VI). In chronological order from after the Green Fork, his host suffered the following major changes to its strength: 400 men Robb originally left at the Twins joined it under Edmure's orders (A Clash of Kings, Catelyn V). ~1,000 Karstark troops deserted him and took to the countryside following Robb's execution of their lord according to Roose (A Storm of Swords, Jaime V). The 1,500 Frey soldiers (A Clash of Kings, Arya X) who were with Roose by the time he took Harrenhal pulled out like the rest of the Frey men due to the Stark-Frey marriage pact being broken. ~3,000 soldiers (said to be 1/3 of Roose's remaining infantry at the time) were sent to Duskendale (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn IV) where they were smashed. Finally, ~2,050 soldiers were left to die at Ruby Ford (A Storm of Swords, Catelyn VI). This would mean Roose's host underwent a net loss of ~7,200 troops between the aftermath of the Green Fork and the Red Wedding, where he had 4,300 troops left. Therefore Roose's host had ~11,500 troops before any of these events, meaning losses on the Green Fork could not have exceeded ~5,600 men. Note that this is an upper ceiling rather than a concrete figure for this losses in the battle, as possible losses to Roose's from various small skirmishes and sieges in the Riverlands must also be considered.

I am looking forward to seeing your comments on these calculations.

 

Edmure is informed about Roose, as they have Ravens.

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When all my strength is marshaled, I should have eight thousand foot and three thousand horse," Edmure said.

"Which means Lord Tywin will have near twice your numbers."

"Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"

ACOK Catelyn V

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Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."

ACOK Catelyn VI

As for calculations, I have seen them, yes and they do not add up with what we are given. As said above, Edmure is informed about Roose so he would know how many men he has and he doesn't say, for example "near twelve thousand" as maester Luwin says or "over twelve thousand" as Robb says (on his would be numbers post RW), he says ten thousand. 11500 would obviously not be over twelve thousand but it would be near twelve thousand.

 

 

 

 

 

[direpupy]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Satin has joined voluntarily, was he stripped of the arms and armor he had?

I am not saying there are no yeoman-likes; as I said we have landed knights and masters, but not all the fighting men own their own lands, as Catelyn describes in the chapter herself.

Satin was a whore not a yeomen so again this is a bad example you give.

You do not have to own land to have yeomen status, the status is gained from they amount of income you generate and just about everybody in Catelyns list has a job that could give them yeomen status, or in the case of the sons they perform the duty's in the name there fathers. The fieldhands are they only exeption, but historically a person with a military obligation that he was unable to perform do to old age or infermety would provide a person in there service instead.

Why would you call upon untrained unequipped men unlles you have no one else left? they answer is you would not!

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Edmure is informed about Roose, as they have Ravens.

ACOK Catelyn V

ACOK Catelyn VI

As for calculations, I have seen them, yes and they do not add up with what we are given. As said above, Edmure is informed about Roose so he would know how many men he has and he doesn't say, for example "near twelve thousand" as maester Luwin says or "over twelve thousand" as Robb says (on his would be numbers post RW), he says ten thousand. 11500 would obviously not be over twelve thousand but it would be near twelve thousand.

Right Edmure send Roose a raven in the middle of nowhere, not happening pal. Ravens fly to castles not troops in the field. So Edmure gets a a letter, but it would be from a rider, but that letter could fall into enemy hands so you do not give your numbers in the letter and Edmure would thus get his information on the numbers from the rider giving his best guess. Thats why Edmure gives what is a unrealisticly round number its a messengers guess at the numbers not a exact number.

They only ones numbers not adding up are yours, but your to stubborn to admit you are wrong.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Satin was a whore not a yeomen so again this is a bad example you give.

You do not have to own land to have yeomen status, the status is gained from they amount of income you generate and just about everybody in Catelyns list has a job that could give them yeomen status, or in the case of the sons they perform the duty's in the name there fathers. The fieldhands are they only exeption, but historically a person with a military obligation that he was unable to perform do to old age or infermety would provide a person in there service instead.

Why would you call upon untrained unequipped men unlles you have no one else left? they answer is you would not!

Right Edmure send Roose a raven in the middle of nowhere, not happening pal. Ravens fly to castles not troops in the field. So Edmure gets a a letter, but it would be from a rider, but that letter could fall into enemy hands so you do not give your numbers in the letter and Edmure would thus get his information on the numbers from the rider giving his best guess. Thats why Edmure gives what is a unrealisticly round number its a messengers guess at the numbers not a exact number.

They only ones numbers not adding up are yours, but your to stubborn to admit you are wrong.

 

It is Roose who can't get Raven messages, not Edmure. Roose can send whatever messages to whatever castle he damn well pleases. Perhaps if you weren't so stubborn on trying to disprove me, you would have thought of that.

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The door opened with a gust of cold black wind and a swirl of snow. The knight of the moths had returned with the maester the king had sent for, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt. Behind them came two other knights, each carrying a raven in a cage. One was the man who'd been with Asha when the banker delivered him to her, a burly man with a winged pig on his surcoat. The other was taller, broad-shouldered and brawny. The big man's breastplate was silvered steel inlaid with niello; though scratched and dinted, it still shone in the candlelight. The cloak that he wore over it was fastened with a burning heart.

...

"Lord Arnolf brought me to tend to his wounded."

"To his wounded? Or his ravens?"

"Both, Your Grace."

"Both." Stannis snapped the word out. "A maester's raven flies to one place, and one place only. Is that correct?"

The maester mopped sweat from his brow with his sleeve. "N-not entirely, Your Grace. Most, yes. Some few can be taught to fly between two castles. Such birds are greatly prized. And once in a very great while, we find a raven who can learn the names of three or four or five castles, and fly to each upon command. Birds as clever as that come along only once in a hundred years."

Stannis gestured at the black birds in the cages. "These two are not so clever, I presume."

"No, Your Grace. Would that it were so."

Maester Tybald did not answer. Theon Greyjoy kicked his feet feebly, and laughed under his breath. Caught!

"Answer me. If we were to loose these birds, would they return to the Dreadfort?" The king leaned forward. "Or might they fly for Winterfell instead?"

 

Here is another one

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The gods play cruel jests, Jon thought. Pyp and Toad, all a lather to be a part of the great ranging, were to remain at Castle Black. It was Samwell Tarly, the self-proclaimed coward, grossly fat, timid, and near as bad a rider as he was with a sword, who must face the haunted forest. The Old Bear was taking two cages of ravens, so they might send back word as they went. Maester Aemon was blind and far too frail to ride with them, so his steward must go in his place. "We need you for the ravens, Sam. And someone has to help me keep Grenn humble."

Wow, birds carried in cages with the army so they can be sent to a castle. Fascinating indeed.

 

I think I can find one or two other examples but should be enough to prove Roose can send raven messages to Edmure.

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is Roose who can't get Raven messages, not Edmure. Roose can send whatever messages to whatever castle he damn well pleases. Perhaps if you weren't so stubborn on trying to disprove me, you would have thought of that.

 

Here is another one

Wow, birds carried in cages with the army so they can be sent to a castle. Fascinating indeed.

 

I think I can find one or two other examples but should be enough to prove Roose can send raven messages to Edmure.

Once again, there are a lot of gaps that we try to fill with more certainty than is warranted. The way Arya describes Aenys Frey as having brought "1500 Freys south" to Harrenhall seems to imply that they arrived independently from Roose's main force. This is not implausible. After all, Roose retreated from the Green Fork to go and hang out with the remains of his army part way back to the Neck, in order to be able to make a fast retreat up to Moat Cailin if forced to. This is not far from the Twins, and one has to wonder whether the Freys, never the most loyal or committed allies to begin with, would have hung around in the middle of nowhere with Roose, when the Twins were very close to this location. Would they not have returned to the Twins? If so, Aenys may have returned with a smaller force than that which originally survived the Battle of the Green Fork, when he "brought them south to Harrenhall".

Anyway, this is speculation of course. We don't actually know.

So does Roose's 10,000 include the Freys? And is his 10,000 really 10,000, or is it more like 11,000? Who knows?

In any case, we are quibbling over a few hundred men, ultimately. I suspect the Freys can raise 5,000 men. Maybe 5,500. That includes raw peasants with sticks. That is not so far from the 6,000 you suggest. Not worth writing pages and pages about.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Once again, there are a lot of gaps that we try to fill with more certainty than is warranted. The way Arya describes Aenys Frey as having brought "1500 Freys south" to Harrenhall seems to imply that they arrived independently from Roose's main force. This is not implausible. After all, Roose retreated from the Green Fork to go and hang out with the remains of his army part way back to the Neck, in order to be able to make a fast retreat up to Moat Cailin if forced to. This is not far from the Twins, and one has to wonder whether the Freys, never the most loyal or committed allies to begin with, would have hung around in the middle of nowhere with Roose, when the Twins were very close to this location. Would they not have returned to the Twins? If so, Aenys may have returned with a smaller force than that which originally survived the Battle of the Green Fork, when he "brought them south to Harrenhall".

Anyway, this is speculation of course. We don't actually know.

So does Roose's 10,000 include the Freys? And is his 10,000 really 10,000, or is it more like 11,000? Who knows?

In any case, we are quibbling over a few hundred men, ultimately. I suspect the Freys can raise 5,000 men. Maybe 5,500. That includes raw peasants with sticks. That is not so far from the 6,000 you suggest. Not worth writing pages and pages about.

We aren't actually quabbling over a few hundred men; the ~6000 I suggest is the maximum possible with casualties (Knight casualties especially) and garrisons taken at their maximum. For all we know the 2000 going north could actually be 500 horseman and 1200 infantry so it is more than a thousand foot for Theon but two thousand men for Cersei or the 2000 spears sieging Riverrun could be 1800 foot soldiers and only 200 knights and with so few knights the over all army is told to be 2000 spears. The actual numbers would be lower but still the actual point they have raised a lot of new man stands as you agree and these men are without any equipment so they are pushing their limits.

 

With you mentioning the retreat to the causeway and an earlier post of the men going north could be the 1500 we see at Harrenhal, this occured to me; if they are the same since their commanders are the same, as you suggested, then this means this 1500 men include many newly raised men, there are fewer than 1500 survivng the Green Fork among them.

[direpupy]

On 23-11-2017 at 10:01 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

It is Roose who can't get Raven messages, not Edmure. Roose can send whatever messages to whatever castle he damn well pleases. Perhaps if you weren't so stubborn on trying to disprove me, you would have thought of that.

 

Here is another one

Wow, birds carried in cages with the army so they can be sent to a castle. Fascinating indeed.

 

I think I can find one or two other examples but should be enough to prove Roose can send raven messages to Edmure.

Yeah the ravens that can get shot down you mean, so in order to not let they enemy have key information you do not put your numbers in there, just like when you send a message with a rider.

If you where not so stubbornly grasping at straws you would have thought of that.

I think that by not addresing the point i bring up about the number of 10000 being unrealisticly round you have shown your hand, you know your wrong but are to stubborn to admit it.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Yeah the ravens that can get shot down you mean, so in order to not let they enemy have key information you do not put your numbers in there, just like when you send a message with a rider.

If you where not so stubbornly grasping at straws you would have thought of that.

I think that by not addresing the point i bring up about the number of 10000 being unrealisticly round you have shown your hand, you know your wrong but are to stubborn to admit it.

And how do you suggest that rider was sent? Crossing across the Ruby Ford perhaps, with days of ride in enemy territory? Or perhaps the rider first went to Twins and then to Riverrun, taking the scenic route? Anything could happen to him and I am not talking about enemy soldiers here, go take look at the origins of house Dondarrion and you would know. If raven messaging is dangerous, then sending a rider is even more so. Go search for the Tickler. He is probably just one we get to see among many interrogators, unless you are suggesting Roose also filled the riders head with wrong numbers and rider didn't know a thing about how numerous they were. 

If sending a raven to Riverrun was seen as too risky then Roose could have just sent a Raven to Twins which is both close to him and has no enemy forces in between and from the Twins they could send one to Riverrun. If it was still seen as too risky then one to Seagard and then Riverrun, in a way where there wouldn't be any enemy presence in the raven's way. And this would still be both faster and safer than sending a rider through either way.

 

Perhaps if you weren't so desperately trying to prove you are right or and I am wrong, you may have thought of that, then again, perhaps you may not.

 

Forgive me If I won't bother myself to provide you with a long list of rounded numbers as it is really time consuming and I have already done so many times earlier. But if you are so insistent on this, you can check my posts on the older thread as many of them are about rounded numbers we see. Or since you are so certain I am wrong, you may just use searchoficeandfire to find some "realistically round" numbers, perhaps like Tywin's so "realistically rounded" twenty thousand to disprove me. Which I believe you won't, though, being so full of yourself.

You are so full of yourself, that while you are accusing me of being stubborn to not admit a mistake you are yet to prove, you are not admitting your failed "logic" with

Quote

Right Edmure send Roose a raven in the middle of nowhere, not happening pal. Ravens fly to castles not troops in the field. So Edmure gets a a letter, but it would be from a rider,

when clearly Edmure would be able to get raven messages from Roose which I have proved to you with other ravens sent from the field. You are, by your words, "grasping at straws" so again, by your words "I think that by not addresing the point i bring up about the" Roose being able to send ravens is not something unrealistic, "you have shown your hand, you know your wrong but are to stubborn to admit it.".

 

If you want to go beyond accusations and actually want to discuss in a productive manner, then the very least you can do is provide some quotes that proves you or disproves me. I have even given you the means to do so, direction at my earlier posts and the search site which is quite useful.

[Corvo the Crow]

Pentos currently only maintains 20 warships. Braavos has at least 100 ships they sent to help Lys against Volantis.

[direpupy]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:53 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

And how do you suggest that rider was sent? Crossing across the Ruby Ford perhaps, with days of ride in enemy territory? Or perhaps the rider first went to Twins and then to Riverrun, taking the scenic route? Anything could happen to him and I am not talking about enemy soldiers here, go take look at the origins of house Dondarrion and you would know. If raven messaging is dangerous, then sending a rider is even more so. Go search for the Tickler. He is probably just one we get to see among many interrogators, unless you are suggesting Roose also filled the riders head with wrong numbers and rider didn't know a thing about how numerous they were. 

If sending a raven to Riverrun was seen as too risky then Roose could have just sent a Raven to Twins which is both close to him and has no enemy forces in between and from the Twins they could send one to Riverrun. If it was still seen as too risky then one to Seagard and then Riverrun, in a way where there wouldn't be any enemy presence in the raven's way. And this would still be both faster and safer than sending a rider through either way.

 

Perhaps if you weren't so desperately trying to prove you are right or and I am wrong, you may have thought of that, then again, perhaps you may not.

 

Forgive me If I won't bother myself to provide you with a long list of rounded numbers as it is really time consuming and I have already done so many times earlier. But if you are so insistent on this, you can check my posts on the older thread as many of them are about rounded numbers we see. Or since you are so certain I am wrong, you may just use searchoficeandfire to find some "realistically round" numbers, perhaps like Tywin's so "realistically rounded" twenty thousand to disprove me. Which I believe you won't, though, being so full of yourself.

You are so full of yourself, that while you are accusing me of being stubborn to not admit a mistake you are yet to prove, you are not admitting your failed "logic" with

when clearly Edmure would be able to get raven messages from Roose which I have proved to you with other ravens sent from the field. You are, by your words, "grasping at straws" so again, by your words "I think that by not addresing the point i bring up about the" Roose being able to send ravens is not something unrealistic, "you have shown your hand, you know your wrong but are to stubborn to admit it.".

 

If you want to go beyond accusations and actually want to discuss in a productive manner, then the very least you can do is provide some quotes that proves you or disproves me. I have even given you the means to do so, direction at my earlier posts and the search site which is quite useful.

I am not the one who is unwilling to discuss both me and Free Northman have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning multiple times, and at a certain point your stubbornes to admit you are wrong becomes frustrating. So yes my frustration is showing up in my post.

I got go around in circles with you some more pointing out the many flaws in your latest response, but its not going to help you are so full of yourself that whenever someone point out the flaws in what you say, you start tot comment only one the things that you have an answer to but never the actual critic to what you say.

You are wrong and you know it, i hope that at some point you can get over yourself and actually be a productive poster on this forum.

 

[direpupy]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:53 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

 

Forgive me If I won't bother myself to provide you with a long list of rounded numbers as it is really time consuming and I have already done so many times earlier. But if you are so insistent on this, you can check my posts on the older thread as many of them are about rounded numbers we see. Or since you are so certain I am wrong, you may just use searchoficeandfire to find some "realistically round" numbers, perhaps like Tywin's so "realistically rounded" twenty thousand to disprove me. Which I believe you won't, though, being so full of yourself.

 

And just to trow a final wrench in your diluted theory's here is something from the mouth of GRRM himself on army numbers, you can find these on the So spake Martin section of the website.

THE STONE GIANT AND OXCROSS

Oh, and while I remember it - how big was Ser Stafford Lannister's host in ACoK, anyway? (I and Ran debated whether it was 10 or 20 thousand, respectively, just to find out that the number isn't really mentioned in the books at all. ;o) )

Even in real life, estimating the size of medieval armies was always tricky. Try researching how many people fought at Agincourt or Crecy, and you will get a dozen different numbers. Why should Oxcross be any clearer?

 

US SIGNING TOUR (HALF MOON BAY, CA)

We had some rather interesting discussions both of science fiction/fantasy in general, ASOIAF specifically and many other topics. Several notes:

3. WRT Dornish troop counts, that Dorne's strength in numbers varied from person to person. Tyrion might have one perspective, Daeron (the young king) another, and Oberyn Martell a third. Each POV is of course right in his/her own mind, and the reader must judge who has the best info. I'll vote for Doran Martell on this one, rather than Tyrion.

 

 

US SIGNING TOUR (HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA)

In an e-mail to a fan a few years back GRRM stated that Dorne could raise roughly the same number of troops as the North and the Vale. Is this still true?

Did not technically answer the question. He mentioned the size difference between the North and Dorne and talked about the climates for each. He also mentioned that Dorne likes to exaggerate their numbers a bit so as not to seem militarily weak to the other great houses. Reminded us that the men in Westeros have medieval type education. Not every man can count, not every man can read. Gave the example of different mens viewpoints regarding the same army. The first mans count would be 10,000 men. The second man seeing the same host would say it was 5,000...

When the author of the books warns you against taking the numbers as exact then maybe you should not take the numbers as exact.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

And just to trow a final wrench in your diluted theory's here is something from the mouth of GRRM himself on army numbers, you can find these on the So spake Martin section of the website.

THE STONE GIANT AND OXCROSS

Oh, and while I remember it - how big was Ser Stafford Lannister's host in ACoK, anyway? (I and Ran debated whether it was 10 or 20 thousand, respectively, just to find out that the number isn't really mentioned in the books at all. ;o) )

Even in real life, estimating the size of medieval armies was always tricky. Try researching how many people fought at Agincourt or Crecy, and you will get a dozen different numbers. Why should Oxcross be any clearer?

 

US SIGNING TOUR (HALF MOON BAY, CA)

We had some rather interesting discussions both of science fiction/fantasy in general, ASOIAF specifically and many other topics. Several notes:

3. WRT Dornish troop counts, that Dorne's strength in numbers varied from person to person. Tyrion might have one perspective, Daeron (the young king) another, and Oberyn Martell a third. Each POV is of course right in his/her own mind, and the reader must judge who has the best info. I'll vote for Doran Martell on this one, rather than Tyrion.

 

 

US SIGNING TOUR (HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA)

In an e-mail to a fan a few years back GRRM stated that Dorne could raise roughly the same number of troops as the North and the Vale. Is this still true?

Did not technically answer the question. He mentioned the size difference between the North and Dorne and talked about the climates for each. He also mentioned that Dorne likes to exaggerate their numbers a bit so as not to seem militarily weak to the other great houses. Reminded us that the men in Westeros have medieval type education. Not every man can count, not every man can read. Gave the example of different mens viewpoints regarding the same army. The first mans count would be 10,000 men. The second man seeing the same host would say it was 5,000...

When the author of the books warns you against taking the numbers as exact then maybe you should not take the numbers as exact.

Congratulations, you are finally providing quotes. Though you are still avoiding the Raven/Rider stuff, it is certainly an improvement on your part.

 

Now here is some estimates

Quote

Chella daughter of Cheyk of the Black Ears had gone ahead to scout, and it was she who brought back word of the army at the crossroads. "By their fires I call them twenty thousand strong," she said. "Their banners are red, with a golden lion."

"Your father?" Bronn asked.

So counting fires is certainly one way to get an estimate. You aren't getting an exact number, which was never the thing I suggested. As GRRM said, it could be wrong, but it is one way an outrider, or anyone else who is an outside observer, or even an inside one with no other way to figüre can use to  guess.

Quote

Lord Tywin's camp spread over leagues. Chella's estimate of twenty thousand men could not be far wrong. The common men camped out in the open, but the knights had thrown up tents, and some of the high lords had erected pavilions as large as houses. Tyrion spied the red ox of the Presters, Lord Crakehall's brindled boar, the burning tree of Marbrand, the badger of Lydden. Knights called out to him as he cantered past, and men-at-arms gaped at the clansmen in open astonishment.

Tyrion is well educated, he certainly can count, yes_ We can also assume he got some tutoring about militarily stuff, though he was perhaps never expected to fight, he is still a lord's son and he sure knows how to wield a weapon as we've been demonstrated. This doesn't mean he can get a near correct number by just looking at the camp site, especially if he's never been in a campaign before but he certainly has a better chance of hitting close to the mark than someone uneducated.

Quote

No one looked at him. No one spoke to him. No one paid him any mind. He was surrounded by men sworn to House Lannister, a vast host twenty thousand strong, and yet he was alone.

This is after his meeting with Tywin. Unless you suggest Tywin is uninformed on his own numbers, a force that was with him from the moment he splitted his forces into two, or he was informed but felt so secretive he didn't inform Tyrion on their strength, this is more or less the numbers he has.

Quote

"Then take a good sniff, my lord. Fill up your nose. Half a million people stink more than three hundred, you'll find. Do you smell the gold cloaks? There are near five thousand of them. My father's own sworn swords must account for another twenty thousand.

Now here Tyrion is just going with the old numbers. Tywin's been losing men, he certainly had casualties during Green Fork and when he Tried to cross the Red Fork. There's also attrition, especially when he returns to Harrenhal in a haste and perhaps also when he rushes to King's Landing.

Tyrion has no way of gaining the updated numbers in the mean time though, being sent away to King's Landing and after that, with victory over Stannis and him not being part of the army anymore, there's no need for him. He says he has near five thousand gold cloaks though, which he roughly knows the numbers of. But perhaps he is the guy looking and seeing 5000 so someone else could see them as 10000, right?

 

Quote

"You do not have the strength to meet the Lannisters in the field," she said bluntly.

"When all my strength is marshaled, I should have eight thousand foot and three thousand horse," Edmure said.

"Which means Lord Tywin will have near twice your numbers."

This is Edmure, again. He hopes to have around 8000 foot and 3000 horse. How do you assume he gained this knowledge? Did his lords send raven messages with numbers stated or perhaps riders with correct information, either on paper or mind? Or have they sent riders who aren't given the correct figures and are only guessing their own numbers, therefore giving Edmure wrong information? Or even better perhaps he has sent outriders to his lords' camps, trying to get a count by looking at the camps? Which one would it be?

Catelyn says Tywin will have twice their numbers. Now this one is a baseless guess and overestimated; they had a rough guess on Tywin's army before Green Fork. After Green Fork they are still assuming he has twenty thousand, as they have no way to know his casualties.

 

Quote

The Blackfish had taken a hundred picked men and a hundred swift horses and raced ahead to screen their movements and scout the way. The reports Ser Brynden's riders brought back did little to reassure her. Lord Tywin's host was still many days to the south … but Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing, had assembled a force of near four thousand men at his castles on the Green Fork.

This is an observation on Walder's Strength, the guess is near four thousand.

Quote

"Fifty. A dozen knights." His voice was glum, as well it might be. When the marriage contract had been made at the Twins, old Lord Walder Frey had sent Robb off with a thousand mounted knights and near three thousand foot. "

We know the garrison had 400 Frey men, so unless they don't have any information or slightest of ideas on how many Freys joined to them, Brynden Tully and his outriders had a very good guess/observation before the Freys even joined them.

 

Most of the above stuff are related to outside observers, or people or people not in the top command, mind you.

 

Back on Roose and raven/rider topic which you insist on avoiding.

 

Quote

Roose Bolton had re-formed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal. And there were two kings in the realm. Two kings, and no agreement.

This is Catelyn XI AGOT

 

Quote

"Which means Lord Tywin will have near twice your numbers."

"Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"

This is ACOK Catelyn V

 

Plenty of time between the times of two quotes for Edmure to be correctly informed on Roose's numbers, whether by raven or by rider, without any fear of either falling into enemy hands. Unless you suggest Roose is uninformed on his own numbers and he is the first of the two men seeing the same host and second man is the one with the correct guess.

 

Here is Stannis in the North.

Quote

"Nor I. But you had best choke down some horsemeat all the same, or you may soon wish you had. We had eight hundred horses when we marched from Deepwood Motte. Last night the count was sixty-four."

"Two dead men, one a knight. Four horses down. We got one up again. The others are lost. Destriers, and one palfrey."

The cold count, Asha heard it named. The baggage train suffered the worst: dead horses, lost men, wayns overturned and broken. "The horses founder in the snow," Justin Massey told the king. "Men wander off or just sit down to die."

This is Stannis' army. As you can see Stannis, the top commander of the army is constantly getting informed on the situation of his army and losses by his commanders. Do you suggest that Roose is not getting informed? What about Tywin?

 

While I am at it, the link below is a map of the south, coming from the books. Perhaps you can be kind enough to assist me on understanding how/where could a raven get shot, going from the causeway to Riverrun, with Tywin having no forces in anywhere between the two. It seems I am unable to grasp, stubborn as I am.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpg

 

Quote

This talk about Walton and his 200 men got me thinking, in previous discussions on the 500 men difference between the 3500 at the Twins and the 4000 passing Moat Caelin  Walton and his 200 men where never mentioned. However by the time Roose comes up the causeway Walton has rejoined him because FArya (aka Jeyne Pool) was with him and she got send to Roose by giving her to Walton. So that is 200 of the 500 men difference explained right there, that just leaves 300 to account for. 

By the way, this is you, trying to get solid numbers when we aren't even given "suspiciously round" numbers but just an even more vague description like "two in ten returned", this two in ten comes from "twenty thousand men, or near enough to make no matter" so I guess this number isn't so suspicious to you.

 

 

Quote

A lot of numbers above. I can only say that I fully agree that "two in ten of 20,000", or "some 3000 foot and 500 horse" and such references don't mean 4000 and 3500 exactly. Where I disagree with you is when you try and assume these to be lower than the stated number in each case. They might as well be higher. And in the absence of evidence, using the number provided is the best information we have to go on to get in the right ballpark.

This comes from Free Northman Reborn to one of my latest posts in the previous thread.

Is his word that I am not taking the numbers exactly as they are, but seeing them as estimates within a range enough for you, or should I add some of my numerous posts on the issue here?

[Corvo the Crow]

Here is also my thoughts on wiki being unreliable, sorry for not bothering to remove the links, I'm just going to copy/paste.

 

In 299 AC, supported by Highgarden and Storm's End, the host of Renly Baratheon is said to number a hundred thousand.^[77] Renly himself claims to have eighty thousand with him at Bitterbridge, while another ten thousand are with Lord Mace Tyrell at Highgarden.^[46] During the siege of Storm's End, Renly brings his cavalry of ten thousand, and claims they will soon be reinforced with a hundred thousand swords and spears.^[74] After Renly's assassination, Catelyn thinks that Renly's ten thousand cavalry will go over to Stannis.^[78] Stannis later tells Ser Cortnay Penrose that he now has twenty thousand men. Renly's foot, near sixty thousand, remains at Bitterbridge, however, and some—especially those of House Florent—are put to death by Lord Randyll Tarly.^[79][80] Exactly how many men from Renly's host were from the Reach, and how many from the stormlands, is unknown, but as House Tyrell is later stated to be able to field seventy thousand men,^[59] and Renly previously had ninety thousand,^[46] it is implied that there were some twenty thousand stormlanders among Renly's forces.

During the Battle of the Blackwater, Stannis's host numbers near twenty thousand knights, light horse, and freeriders.^[72] As he previously had five thousand soldiers,^[74] fifteen thousand men have joined him since Renly's death. As Renly's force at Storm's End only was ten thousand men strong,^[74] made up out of both forces from the stormlands and the reach, the additional five thousand appear to come solely from the stormlands.

 

Catelyn

Quote

"I'm told your son crossed the Neck with twenty thousand swords at his back," Renly went on. "Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand."

No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest.

"I have twice that number here," Renly said, "and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

 

 

Cressen, Davos and Tyrion(Varys)

Quote

Shuffling along the gallery, they passed before a row of tall arched windows with commanding views of the outer bailey, the curtain wall, and the fishing village beyond. In the yard, archers were firing at practice butts to the call of "Notch, draw, loose." Their arrows made a sound like a flock of birds taking wing. Guardsmen strode the wallwalks, peering between the gargoyles on the host camped without. The morning air was hazy with the smoke of cookfires, as three thousand men sat down to break their fasts beneath the banners of their lords. Past the sprawl of the camp, the anchorage was crowded with ships. No craft that had come within sight of Dragonstone this past half year had been allowed to leave again. Lord Stannis's Fury, a triple-decked war galley of three hundred oars, looked almost small beside some of the big-bellied carracks and cogs that surrounded her.

 

My brother left the greater part of his power at Bitterbridge, near sixty thousand foot. I sent my wife's brother Ser Errol with Ser Parmen Crane to take them under my command, but they have not returned. I fear that Ser Loras Tyrell reached Bitterbridge before my envoys, and took that host for his own."

 

"Do you take me for an utter fool, ser?" asked Stannis. "I have twenty thousand men. You are besieged by land and sea. Why would I choose single combat when my eventual victory is certain?" The king pointed a finger at him. "I give you fair warning. If you force me to take my castle by storm, you may expect no mercy. I will hang you for traitors, every one of you."

 

Stannis would have reached the Rush days ago. The kingsroad ran from Storm's End straight to King's Landing, a much shorter route than by sea, and his host was largely mounted; near twenty thousand knights, light horse, and freeriders, Renly's unwilling legacy to his brother. They would have made good time, but armored destriers and twelve-foot lances would avail them little against the deep waters of the Blackwater Rush and the high stone walls of the city. Stannis would be camped with his lords on the south bank of the river, doubtless seething with impatience and wondering what Ser Imry had done with his fleet.

 

"Not all," agreed the eunuch. "Not Loras Tyrell, nor Randyll Tarly, nor Mathis Rowan. And Storm's End itself has not yielded. Ser Cortnay Penrose holds the castle in Renly's name, and will not believe his liege is dead. He demands to see the mortal remains before he opens his gates, but it seems that Renly's corpse has unaccountably vanished. Carried away, most likely. A fifth of Renly's knights departed with Ser Loras rather than bend the knee to Stannis. It's said the Knight of Flowers went mad when he saw his king's body, and slew three of Renly's guards in his wrath, among them Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce."