Corvo the Crow

Military Strengths

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I was thinking on opening a new thread for a while as the older one wasn't getting updates. With it now locked, here's the new one.

I'll try to update it as often as I can.

All numbers will come strictly from the books, though there will be some calculations and guess work based on information by the books.

Here are some starters, quotes will be added later on.

 

  • Iron Islands: ~400 ships and ~15000 fighting men; Most of the ships are longships but there are 100 Iron Fleet ships, three times the size of a longship and comparable to smaller war galleys(average galley is 100 oars with some having fewer than 80) with a few falling some where in between, like Theon's ship (50 oars)
  1. Main branch of the Harlaws have more than 40 ships with mostly boys as crewmen

Sources: ACOK Theon II, AFFC Cersei II, ADWD Iron Suitor

 

  • Crownlands: ~10000 during Dance of the Dragons, hasn't improved much since then.

 

  1. Islands of the Gullet, Bar Emmons and Masseys together have fewer than 1500 men. Celtigars have some hundreds, so are Velaryons. Dragonstone historically had a 430 men garrison.
  2. Duskendale possibly has ~1600 men (Duskendale and Maidenpool together has 3000 men)
  3. Until recently King's Landing had 2000 guards.

Sources: World Book, Princess and the Queen, ASOS Davos IV, ASOS Davos V

 

  • Dorne: During Robert's Rebellion they have sent 10000 men. They are the least populous of the "Seven Kingdoms"
  1. Yronwoods of the two Dornish hosts waiting in the passes, one is described as Doran's and the other as Yronwood's.

Sources: ASOS Jaime V, AFFC The Captain of Guards

 

  • North: After some months of preperation, Torrhen Stark took 30000 men south of the Neck. Robb went south with ~19500 men and more than 7000 (~4000 wood and mountain clansmen joining Stannis, Ramsay's men, near 2000 with Rodrik, Arnolf's 450 and many others) raised later with still many more available in some regions like Dustin and Manderly lands.

 

  1. Karstarks: They have so far raised ~3000 men (2300 initial + ~200 with Rodrik + ~450 raised by Arnolf) of which little over 300 is cavalry.
  2. Manderlies: They have so far raised 2100 men (1500 initial + ~300 with Rodrik + 300 in fArya's wedding) of which at least 350 is cavalry.
  3. Mountain clansmen: ~3000 (Some with Robb and 2000-3000 left joining Stannis)
  4. Dustins: They sent 2000 cavalry in Dance of the Dragons. This 2000 men would come either solely from Dustins or it would be Dustins and Ryswells; Northman gathered in three places, Winterfell, White Harbor and Barrowton and all the other great houses are closer to either White Harbor or Winterfell.
  5. Wolfswood Clans: Even after sending men south, they seem to have ~1000 men remaining joining Stannis.
  6. Cerwyns: they had 300 with Rodrik
  7. Tallharts: the 400 garrison of Twins possibly belonged to Tallharts. Tallharts later have ~300 men with Rodrik.
  8. Flints

 

  • Reach and Stormlands (will seperate it later) They have raised together 90000 men in Wot5K and this doesn't include some reach lords who are yet to join or some Stormlanders(Dondarrion and Swann) who have decided not to. According to Loras, Willas and Garlan could raise another 20000 within a month and according to Sam there are thousands of men protecting Oldtown so Reach alone perhaps has over 100000 men.

 

  1. Hightowers have more than 9000 men during Dance of the Dragons
  2. Florents have 2000 men, more than 750 of this is cavalry
  3. Stormlands as a whole had fewer than 10000 men during the conquest but this number may be without Marchers

 

 

  • Stormlands: Possibly 15000-20000 at most, considering Dorne is the least populous kingdom with at least 10000 men and  Crownlands also has ~10000
  1. During Aegon's Conquest, Stormlanders have fewer than 10000 men but this number may not include Marcher Lords.
  2. Caron and Dondarrion together had 4000 foot and 800 cavalry during Vulture Hunt.
  3. Tarth should be in the range of hundreds, as Velaryons are stated to be more powerful than them (in Princes and Queen)

 

  • Riverlands Even affter suffering great losses at the start of Wot5K, Riverlands still has more than 15000 men left, of which 4000 is cavalry.
  1. Mallisters seem to be able to raise a second levy of 1000 men (at most) joining Robb.
  2. Freys have started with 3000 foot and 1000 cavalry, after Red Wedding they have raised ~2500 more infantry.
  3. At the end of the war Bracken's siege Raventree Hall with 500 men
  4. Despite his griveous losses at the start Edmure still has 3000 cavalry and 8000 foot without the Freys.
  5. Blackwoods had 300 longbowmen during princess and queen

 

  • Vale: Possibly a lot less than 40000
  1. Six lords declarant can together raise 20000 men, which Petyr Baelish isn't able to match.
  2. Sisters: During the Rape of the Sisters, 3000 sisterman warriors were executed in a single day.
  3. Garrison of Eyrie is 20 men, of Gates of the Moon is fewer than 300

Sources: World Book, AFFC Sansa I

 

  • Westerlands: At the start of the War of the Five Kings, After preparing for a while Tywin had ~35000  which includes many sellsword companies and seemingly most of the available men. Without the sellswords they have perhaps as many as 30000 men
  1. During Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion Tywin had 3000 infantry and 500 cavalry at the start, which very likely included men from Lannisport which is less than a mile away.
  2. Reynes had 2000 men without their allies and most of their vassals, which would have brought them to 8000

 

  • Drogo's Khalasar: 100000 people, 40000 are warriors the rest are women, children and slaves.

 

Wildlings: Their entire populace is around 30000 people; Most of the Wildlings, even those living close to the Wall, left their villages to Join Mance. Scouts sent from Fist of the First Men estimate their strength to be 30000 or more which is later confirmed by Jon once he gets there. If same rate as Drogo's Khalasar applies they should have 12000 men in fighting age, some of their women also fight; of the 1000 people Stannis took captive, 300 are men of fighting age, among the 700 left, 50-100 are spearwives. If the same rate applies overall, they should have  1300-2600 Spearwives in total.

  1. Thenns have at least 300 warriors; 100 that climbed the wall and 200 of Sigorn
  2. Tormund alone has 200 giants and 80 mammoths in his group of ~3000
  3. Mance lost a dozen giants trying to attack the Wall.

 

  • Pentos: Currently they have no army beyond the city watch and they maintain no more than twenty warships, due to terms imposed upon them by Braavosi. They have tens of thousands of "servants", which may give some idea on how big the city itself is.

 

  • Braavos has at least 100 ships

 

  • Qohor: Aurion raised an army of 30000 Qohorik colonists during the century of blood.

 

 

SOME OTHER STUFF

 

  • On army composition

Westerosi seem to generally tend having one cavalry per three footmen, though we see other preferences this is the most common one.

Tywin prefers a bigger portion of horse in his army then the usual 1:3

Marcher lords seem to prefer one horse per five footmen

In older days the preferred ratio could have been one horsemen for ten footmen, as this is what we see in Field of Fire and the Lannister force sent to Stepstones.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I was thinking on opening a new thread for a while as the older one wasn't getting updates. With it now locked, here's the new one.

I'll try to update it as often as I can.

All numbers will come strictly from the books, though there will be some calculations and guess work based on information by the books.

Here are some starters, quotes will be added later on.

 

  • Iron Islands: ~400 ships and ~15000 fighting men; Most of the ships are longships but there are 100 Iron Fleet ships, three times the size of a longship and comparable to smaller war galleys(average galley is 100 oars with some having fewer than 80) with a few falling some where in between, like Theon's ship (50 oars)
  1. Main branch of the Harlaws have more than 40 ships with mostly boys as crewmen

 

  • Crownlands: ~10000 during Dance of the Dragons, hasn't improved much since then.

 

  1. Islands of the Gullet, Bar Emmons and Masseys together have fewer than 1500 men. Celtigars have some hundreds, so are Velaryons. Dragonstone historically had a 430 men garrison.
  2. Duskendale possibly has ~1600 men (Duskendale and Maidenpool together has 3000 men)
  3. Until recently King's Landing had 2000 guards.

 

  • Dorne: During Robert's Rebellion they have sent 10000 men. They are the least populous of the "Seven Kingdoms"
  1. Yronwoods of the two Dornish hosts waiting in the passes, one is described as Doran's and the other as Yronwood's.

 

  • North: After some months of preperation, Torrhen Stark took 30000 men south of the Neck. Robb went south with ~19500 men and more than 7000 (~4000 wood and mountain clansmen joining Stannis, Ramsay's men, near 2000 with Rodrik, Arnolf's 450 and many others) raised later with still many more available in some regions like Dustin and Manderly lands.

 

  1. Karstarks: They have so far raised ~3000 men (2300 initial + ~200 with Rodrik + ~450 raised by Arnolf) of which little over 300 is cavalry.
  2. Manderlies: They have so far raised 2100 men (1500 initial + ~300 with Rodrik + 300 in fArya's wedding) of which at least 350 is cavalry.
  3. Mountain clansmen: ~3000 (Some with Robb and 2000-3000 left joining Stannis)
  4. Dustins: They sent 2000 cavalry in Dance of the Dragons. This 2000 men would come either solely from Dustins or it would be Dustins and Ryswells; Northman gathered in three places, Winterfell, White Harbor and Barrowton and all the other great houses are closer to either White Harbor or Winterfell.
  5. Wolfswood Clans: Even after sending men south, they seem to have ~1000 men remaining.

 

  • Reach and Stormlands (will seperate it later) They have raised together 90000 men in Wot5K and this doesn't include some reach lords who are yet to join or some Stormlanders(Dondarrion and Swann) who have decided not to. According to Loras, Willas and Garlan could raise another 20000 within a month and according to Sam there are thousands of men protecting Oldtown so Reach alone perhaps has over 100000 men.

 

  1. Caron and Dondarrion together had 4000 foot and 800 cavalry during Vulture Hunt.
  2. Hightowers have more than 9000 men during Dance of the Dragons
  3. Florents have 2000 men, more than 750 of this is cavalry
  4. During Aegon's Conquest, Stormlanders have fewer than 10000 men but this number may not include Marcher Lords.

 

  • Riverlands Even affter suffering great losses at the start of Wot5K, Riverlands still has more than 15000 men left, of which 4000 is cavalry.
  1. Mallisters seem to be able to raise a second levy of 1000 men (at most) joining Robb.
  2. Freys have started with 3000 foot and 1000 cavalry, after Red Wedding they have raised ~2500 more infantry.
  3. At the end of the war Bracken's siege Raventree Hall with 500 men
  4. Despite his griveous losses at the start Edmure still has 3000 cavalry and 8000 foot without the Freys.

 

  • Vale: Possibly a lot less than 40000
  1. Six lords declarant can together raise 20000 men, which Petyr Baelish isn't able to match.
  2. Sisters: During the Rape of the Sisters, 3000 sisterman warriors were executed in a single day. (World Book)

 

  • Westerlands: ~35000 which includes many sellsword companies and seemingly most of the available men.
  1. During Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion Tywin had 3000 infantry and 500 cavalry at the start, which very likely included men from Lannisport which is less than a mile away.
  2. Reynes had 2000 men without their allies and most of their vassals

 

  • Drogo's Khalasar: 100000 people, 40000 are warriors the rest are women, children and slaves.

 

  • Wildlings: Their entire populace is around 30000 people; Most of the Wildlings, even those living close to the Wall, left their villages to Join Mance. Scouts sent from Fist of the First Men estimate their strength to be 30000 or more which is later confirmed by Jon once he gets there. If same rate as Drogo's Khalasar applies they should have 12000 men in fighting age, some of their women also fight; of the 1000 people Stannis took captive, 300 are men of fighting age, among the 700 left, 50-100 are spearwives. If the same rate applies overall, they should have  1300-2600 Spearwives in total.
  1. Thenns have at least 300 warriors; 100 that climbed the wall and 200 of Sigorn
  2. Tormund alone has 200 giants in his group of ~3000

Nice summary. A few comments.

I find it highly unlikely that the Freys have 6000+ men. They raised 4000 men originally, but we really don't know how many of those 4000 were also in the 1500-2000 men they raised thereafter. Most likely they max out at about 5000 men, with 500+ of those being untrained peasants with sharpened sticks and pitchforks.

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23 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Nice summary. A few comments.

I find it highly unlikely that the Freys have 6000+ men. They raised 4000 men originally, but we really don't know how many of those 4000 were also in the 1500-2000 men they raised thereafter. Most likely they max out at about 5000 men, with 500+ of those being untrained peasants with sharpened sticks and pitchforks.

Isn't that what a levy is though? You have your core of "professional soldiers"; Knights on horseback and perhaps also some men on foot like household guards, all trained and equipped but most of your numbers come from your smallfolk. You equip them and train them so you have a fighting force but well, if you have run out of equipment and you still need men, you do as Stannis intended to do with wildlings; you send them ahead as arrow fodder and if you win and they survive they can equip themselves from the dead.

On Freys, we know for a certainty that only 1500 Frey infantry survived until Harrenhal is taken(Arya chapters). With a garrison of 400 in Twins they had 2600 in the field. Now with the war over, they have 2000 men going North, 500 is knights rest foot and 2000 spears sieging Riverrun. They could have as many as 500 horse in Riverrun too (which would mean they lost none in Whispering Wood or Westerlands which is not true) but even if it's like that they have 3000 foot in the field while still garrisoning the Twins and Seagard.

 

Also regarding your question Mance's host; Only one time we read about a hundred thousand wildlings and that is during the fight for the wall, long after Jon joins Mance and confirms it to be 30000.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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18 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Isn't that what a levy is though? You have your core of "professional soldiers"; Knights on horseback and perhaps also some men on foot like household guards, all trained and equipped but most of your numbers come from your smallfolk. You equip them and train them so you have a fighting force but well, if you have run out of equipment and you still need men, you do as Stannis intended to do with wildlings; you send them ahead as arrow fodder and if you win and they survive they can equip themselves from the dead.

On Freys, we know for a certainty that only 1500 Frey infantry survived until Harrenhal is taken(Arya chapters). With a garrison of 400 in Twins they had 2600 in the field. Now with the war over, they have 2000 men going North, 500 is knights rest foot and 2000 spears sieging Riverrun. They could have as many as 500 horse in Riverrun too (which would mean they lost none in Whispering Wood or Westerlands which is not true) but even if it's like that they have 3000 foot in the field while still garrisoning the Twins and Seagard.

 

Also regarding your question regarding Mance's host; Only one time we read about a hundred thousand wildlings and that is during the fight for the wall, long after Jon joins Mance and confirms it to be 30000.

I'm not disputing your numbers, but just remind me where Arya states that 1500 Freys survived until Harrenhal?

As for the Frey men besieging Riverrun, can you point out where they are stated to number 2000? Again, I can't recall the quote.

As for the garrisons of the Twins and Seagard, do we know their sizes now? After winning the War, Walder Frey could have emptied the Twins but for a skeleton garrison, to press his claim for Riverrun and again to bolster his force with Roose Bolton.

Also, we don't actually know how many Freys are with Bolton. Cersei says the intention is to send two thousand. But Theon claims 500 knights and "more than a thousand" infantry, including many peasants with sharpened sticks.

So to me, we could easily have a situation where we have 1700 Freys with Roose, of which say 500 are raw peasants newly raised. Add to that a garrison of 200 at the Twins, and 100 at Seagard. That gives you 2000 men. And then add to that whatever force besieges Riverrun. Even if that force numbers 2000 as you say, that brings us to 4000 remaining Freys. Add those lost in the War, and we get to around 5000 in total, including untrained peasants with sticks.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Also an addition, we see many times Lords having a 1:9 / 1:10 horse to foot ratio and lords starting out with 1:3 raising more men later on. I think this possibly means that the 1 heavy horse to 3 foot rate is the ideal one for most westerosi battle strategies so this is what most Lords try to achieve and 1:10 is possibly their entire strength or near close to it. Renly's host is a very good example around 80000 men in total and some 20000 cavalry but only half of this is knights (South of the neck all heavy horsemen are likely knights)

We see Reynes having 2000 men but only 200 is knights when in fact gathering knights would be much faster than levies. Karstarks have so far raised almost 3000 men but little over 300 is horse. Quite possibly the average lord keeps one Knight per ten available men of fighting age in his lands.

Note however that I suggest this is for the average lord, not those who are very rich like Freys or some Westerlander houses so when it comes to Frey, they may have, for example not 10000 men of fighting age in their lands but perhaps 6000-7000 whereas Karstarks, probably an average lord in terms of wealth had 300 horse for their 3000 in total men after which they are depleted of men or at least parts of their land that can provide the men in a reasonable time are.

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10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm not disputing your numbers, but just remind me where Arya states that 1500 Freys survived until Harrenhal?

As for the Frey men besieging Riverrun, can you point out where they are stated to number 2000? Again, I can't recall the quote.

As for the garrisons of the Twins and Seagard, do we know their sizes now? After winning the War, Walder Frey could have emptied the Twins but for a skeleton garrison, to press his claim for Riverrun and again to bolster his force with Roose Bolton.

Also, we don't actually know how many Freys are with Bolton. Cersei says the intention is to send two thousand. But Theon claims 500 knights and "more than a thousand" infantry, including many peasants with sharpened sticks.

So to me, we could easily have a situation where we have 1700 Freys with Roose, of which say 500 are raw peasants newly raised. Add to that a garrison of 200 at the Twins, and 100 at Seagard. That gives you 2000 men. And then add to that whatever force besieges Riverrun. Even if that force numbers 2000 as you say, that brings us to 4000 remaining Freys. Take away those lost in the War, and we get to around 5000 in total, including untrained peasants with sticks.

 

I am unable to do that as the site is not working for me right now but if you haven't seen it so far you can use the site asearchoficeandfire to search for quotes.

On garrison strength, Walder has 400 men for two castles (three if you count the tower in the middle) so 200 men for each castle which is a strong garrison for most castles. The norm for an average castle is probably 100 (Rook's Rest garrison in Dance of Dragons) so Walder may have drawn some men from the 400 but I don't think he'll do like Rodrik and leave the castle defenseless, especially with Brotherhood around so I don't think Seagard and Twins together have anything less than 300 men

 

Ok so the site is working again

Quote

"We must not allow Lord Tywin to trap us here at Harrenhal," Ser Aenys Frey was saying as Arya filled the washbasin. A grey stooped giant of a man with watery red eyes and huge gnarled hands, Ser Aenys had brought fifteen hundred Frey swords south to Harrenhal, yet it often seemed as if he were helpless to command even his own brothers. "The castle is so large it requires an army to hold it, and once surrounded we cannot feed an army. Nor can we hope to lay in sufficient supplies. The country is ash, the villages given over to wolves, the harvest burnt or stolen. Autumn is on us, yet there is no food in store and none being planted. We live on forage, and if the Lannisters deny that to us, we will be down to rats and shoe leather in a moon's turn."

ACOK Arya X

Quote

But who would be mad enough to contest Joffrey's rule now, after what had befallen Stannis Baratheon and Robb Stark? There was still fighting in the riverlands, but everywhere the coils were tightening. Ser Gregor Clegane had crossed the Trident and seized the ruby ford, then captured Harrenhal almost effortlessly. Seagard had yielded to Black Walder Frey, Lord Randyll Tarly held Maidenpool, Duskendale, and the kingsroad. In the west, Ser Daven Lannister had linked up with Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth for a march on Riverrun. Ser Ryman Frey was leading two thousand spears down from the Twins to join them. And Paxter Redwyne claimed his fleet would soon set sail from the Arbor, to begin the long voyage around Dorne and through the Stepstones. Stannis's Lyseni pirates would be outnumbered ten to one. The struggle that the maesters were calling the War of the Five Kings was all but at an end. Mace Tyrell had been heard complaining that Lord Tywin had left no victories for him.

AFFC Jaime II

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also an addition, we see many times Lords having a 1:9 / 1:10 horse to foot ratio and lords starting out with 1:3 raising more men later on. I think this possibly means that the 1 heavy horse to 3 foot rate is the ideal one for most westerosi battle strategies so this is what most Lords try to achieve and 1:10 is possibly their entire strength or near close to it. Renly's host is a very good example around 80000 men in total and some 20000 cavalry but only half of this is knights (South of the neck all heavy horsemen are likely knights)

We see Reynes having 2000 men but only 200 is knights when in fact gathering knights would be much faster than levies. Karstarks have so far raised almost 3000 men but little over 300 is horse. Quite possibly the average lord keeps one Knight per ten available men of fighting age in his lands.

Note however that I suggest this is for the average lord, not those who are very rich like Freys or some Westerlander houses so when it comes to Frey, they may have, for example not 10000 men of fighting age in their lands but perhaps 6000-7000 whereas Karstarks, probably an average lord in terms of wealth had 300 horse for their 3000 in total men after which they are depleted of men or at least parts of their land that can provide the men in a reasonable time are.

Just to point out again that if the Freys can raise 5000 soldiers, they likely have a population in the region of 250,000 in their lands, at a minimum. Meaning they probably have at least 40,000 men of fighting age (about a sixth of the total population of their lands).  Of that, they would be doing very well to raise 5000 to war.

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10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I am unable to do that as the site is not working for me right now but if you haven't seen it so far you can use the site asearchoficeandfire to search for quotes.

 

Thanks. I already did that. In the entirety of Feast and Dance there is not a reference to "two thousand Freys". Maybe it was implied using different wording perhaps? All I could find on the siege of Riverrun, was that there is a large force of Lannisters and an even larger force of Freys. But the actual number wasn't mentioned in the quote I could find.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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18 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just to point out again that if the Freys can raise 5000 soldiers, they likely have a population in the region of 250,000 in their lands, at a minimum. Meaning they probably have at least 40,000 men of fighting age (about a sixth of the total population of their lands).  Of that, they would be doing very well to raise 5000 to war.

Ok so perhaps 1:10 could be not the amount of knights to men of fighting age but knights to men in fighting age they can raise? We see this ratio or something close to it many times; Reynes, Field of Fire, Karstarks (in the total number they raised), possibly Renly's host if we only take heavy horse; 60000 infantry with Renly, 10000 possibly all infantry with Mace, 20000 Garlan and Willas can raise in a month also possbily all infantry, meaning 90000 infantry or thereabouts to only 10000 knights. The last one is a bit of a stretch but it is there, it should mean something.

1:3 is also something we see a lot but as I said earlier, I believe we have an answer for that, it is the ratio most lords try to achieve for strategies, they don't get past that (in the overall of an army, not every single lord) number even though they have the men available, like Freys starting with 1000 and 3000 but later raising more than two thousand new men. They raised new men so they can achieve that ratio again.

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11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ok so perhaps 1:10 could be not the amount of knights to men of fighting age but knights to men in fighting age they can raise? We see this ratio or something close to it many times; Reynes, Field of Fire, Karstarks (in the total number they raised), possibly Renly's host if we only take heavy horse; 60000 infantry with Renly, 10000 possibly all infantry with Mace, 20000 Garlan and Willas can raise in a month also possbily all infantry, meaning 90000 infantry or thereabouts to only 10000 knights. The last one is a bit of a stretch but it is there, it should mean something.

1:3 is also something we see a lot but as I said earlier, I believe we have an answer for that, it is the ratio most lords try to achieve for strategies, they don't get past that (in the overall of an army, not every single lord) number even though they have the men available, like Freys starting with 1000 and 3000 but later raising more than two thousand new men. They raised new men so they can achieve that ratio again.

It does not hold water, though. If 10:1 was true, then with 5000 horse with Robb, and another 2000 at least in the North - Ramsay's cavalry, Manderly's cavalry (which still exceeds that of the Boltons), and the cavalry of the Dustins and Ryswells, the North easily has around 7500 cavalry at the start of the War. Meaning a force of 75,000 soldiers, at 10-1.

Similarly, Tywin has 10,000 cavalry in his host, which at 10-1 would give him 100,000 soldiers in total. Take any force with a lot of cavalry, and you will see that multiplying it by 10 would give you numbers that don't fit with the known strengths of the various kingdoms.  If Tywin has 10,000 horse, then the Reach must have close to twice that. Meaning close to 200,000 soldiers? Nope. 5-1 is probably the norm, and 3-1 for the richer regions.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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24 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It does not hold water, though. If 10:1 was true, then with 5000 horse with Robb, and another 2000 at least in the North - Ramsay's cavalry, Manderly's cavalry (which still exceeds that of the Boltons), and the cavalry of the Dustins and Ryswells, the North easily has around 7500 cavalry at the start of the War. Meaning a force of 75,000 soldiers, at 10-1.

Similarly, Tywin has 10,000 cavalry in his host, which at 10-1 would give him 100,000 soldiers in total. Take any force with a lot of cavalry, and you will see that multiplying it by 10 would give you numbers that don't fit with the known strengths of the various kingdoms.  If Tywin has 10,000 horse, then the Reach must have close to twice that. Meaning close to 200,000 soldiers? Nope. 5-1 is probably the norm, and 3-1 for the richer regions.

As I said, it is for the average lord, Tywin would be exempt from it as he doesn't even go for the most seen 1:3 either; he has the money so he goes for 1:2. He doesn't seem to have too much population either, compared to Riverlands, North or Vale so he has to turn it to his advantage somehow.

Also for 75000 soldiers, I mean not 10 soldiers should be on the field for every horseman (unless they chose to, like Reynes) but he keeps a knight for every ten peasants  he can raise for the levy.

Again going with the Frey and Karstark example Freys have 1000 knights and start with 3000 levy but they later raise another 2000-2500 men, with perhaps being able to raise some more( not taking the equipment into account)

Karstarks have 300 horse and 2000 foot, after they raise some more (close to 200 it seems) for Rodrik and 450 for Roose, they reach around 3000 and we hear that their lands are depleted of men. At least their lands where it is feasible to gather men from.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As I said, it is for the average lord, Tywin would be exempt from it as he doesn't even go for the most seen 1:3 either; he has the money so he goes for 1:2. He doesn't seem to have too much population either, compared to Riverlands, North or Vale so he has to turn it to his advantage somehow.

Also for 75000 soldiers, I mean not 10 soldiers should be on the field for every horseman (unless they chose to, like Reynes) but he keeps a knight for every ten peasants  he can raise for the levy. Again going with the Frey example they have 1000 knights and start with 3000 levy but they later raise another 2000-2500 men, with perhaps being able to raise some more( not taking the equipment into account)

I simply don't agree that the Freys raise another 2000 men after their original 4000. My questions above on that topic remain. I suspect there is some double counting happening with the Frey troops.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thanks. I already did that. In the entirety of Feast and Dance there is not a reference to "two thousand Freys". Maybe it was implied using different wording perhaps? All I could find on the siege of Riverrun, was that there is a large force of Lannisters and an even larger force of Freys. But the actual number wasn't mentioned in the quote I could find.

Riverrun's two thousand Freys is from ASOS Tyrion VIII.

Quote

But who would be mad enough to contest Joffrey's rule now, after what had befallen Stannis Baratheon and Robb Stark? There was still fighting in the riverlands, but everywhere the coils were tightening. Ser Gregor Clegane had crossed the Trident and seized the ruby ford, then captured Harrenhal almost effortlessly. Seagard had yielded to Black Walder Frey, Lord Randyll Tarly held Maidenpool, Duskendale, and the kingsroad. In the west, Ser Daven Lannister had linked up with Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth for a march on Riverrun. Ser Ryman Frey was leading two thousand spears down from the Twins to join them. And Paxter Redwyne claimed his fleet would soon set sail from the Arbor, to begin the long voyage around Dorne and through the Stepstones. Stannis's Lyseni pirates would be outnumbered ten to one. The struggle that the maesters were calling the War of the Five Kings was all but at an end. Mace Tyrell had been heard complaining that Lord Tywin had left no victories for him.

Hosteen and Aenys are said to have two thousand Freys in AFFC Jaime II.

Quote

"Lord Bolton is trapped below the Neck, cut off from the north by the ironmen at Moat Cailin."

"Not for long. Bolton's bastard son will soon remove that little obstacle. Lord Bolton will have two thousand Freys to augment his own strength, under Lord Walder's sons Hosteen and Aenys. That should be more than enough to deal with Stannis and a few thousand broken men."

 

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23 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Riverrun's two thousand Freys is from ASOS Tyrion VIII.

Hosteen and Aenys are said to have two thousand Freys in AFFC Jaime II.

 

Thanks, I found the quote about Ryman's force. I am aware of Cersei's claim about the 2000 going North, but Theon seems to see a lower number actually marching past Moat Cailin. Cersei is a thousand miles away, after all, while Theon is right there. Still, Theon's quote is not definitive, as he says there are a thousand infantry or more, in addition to the 500 knights.

Anyway, I suspect what Martin has done is simply take the original Frey force of 4000 and split it in two, with half going to Riverrun and half going to the North. And he filled in the battle losses they have suffered with the new "peasants with sharpened sticks" that Theon sees in the Frey infantry ranks marching up the causeway.

So I do think the Freys have raised some new levies after their original 4000. I just don't think these new levies bring their strength much beyond 5000 though.

EDIT

I just find it strange. We haven't seen another Riverland House even close to 4000 men, let alone 5000. For the Freys to approach 6000 just seems unlikely. That bridge to nowhere isn't THAT power inducing, after all. 5000 seems reasonable, all things considered.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I simply don't agree that the Freys raise another 2000 men after their original 4000. My questions above on that topic remain. I suspect there is some double counting happening with the Frey troops.

Well, you have seen the quotes for yourself. 2000 sieging Riverrun, 1500 infantry left when Arya is still at Harrenhal. Here's also the 2000 Freys going north

Quote

 

Lord Bolton is trapped below the Neck, cut off from the north by the ironmen at Moat Cailin."

"Not for long. Bolton's bastard son will soon remove that little obstacle. Lord Bolton will have two thousand Freys to augment his own strength, under Lord Walder's sons Hosteen and Aenys. That should be more than enough to deal with Stannis and a few thousand broken men."

 

This is also AFFC Jaime II so there are 4000 Freys going North and South. This is without counting any garrison, however small it may be. Their horse part probably didn't suffer as serious losses as foot part so there would be some horses either in garrison or sieging Riverrun or perhaps both but it won't be 1000 as it was at the start.
Robb lost 200 from his 6000 if I remember right, assuming an equal casualty rate for all this means Freys lost ~35 men there let's say the losses on Westerlands were few as well and they had 900 horseman left in total. Even with 900 horses and disregarding any garrisons we have 3100 infantry on the field where as they had, including garrisons, 1900 on last count before RW, in which they lost 50 or so. Even with maximizing all the other numbers of possible remaining men and minimizing garrisons it is obvious they raised new men and a lot of them.
 
With a 400 garrison at Twins, 100 at Seagard and 500 knights remaining they must have raised 2150 new men. This is the maximum men raised with numbers we see.
 
With no garrisons and 1000 horse(no losses), they must have raised 1150 new men. This is the minimum men raised with numbers we see.
 
Obviously the number of actual new men would fall somewhere in between and as the size of the garrison and casualties from cavalry increases, so does the number of men raised, which is why it must actually be closer to 2150 than 1150. It doesn't need to be 2000 men exactly but surely it is something close to that.

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16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thanks, I found the quote about Ryman's force. I am aware of Cersei's claim about the 2000 going North, but Theon seems to see a lower number actually marching past Moat Cailin. Cersei is a thousand miles away, after all, while Theon is right there. Still, Theon's quote is not definitive, as he says there are a thousand infantry or more, in addition to the 500 knights.

Anyway, I suspect what Martin has done is simply take the original Frey force of 4000 and split it in two, with half going to Riverrun and half going to the North. And he filled in the battle losses they have suffered with the new "peasants with sharpened sticks" that Theon sees in the Frey infantry ranks marching up the causeway.

So I do think the Freys have raised some new levies after their original 4000. I just don't think these new levies bring their strength much beyond 5000 though.

 

Theon doesn't see a lower number; he sees 400 knights in van and 100 in rear guard and he sees in between more than a thousand. With all the rounds up and downs I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't send 2000 men but it is something close to it. Say, if they sent 1700 men, it is 2000 men for Cersei, rounded up and when Theon gives a detailed look, seperating foot and horse, he sees 500 horse and 1200 foot so for him the foot part is 1000, rounded down.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Theon doesn't see a lower number; he sees 400 knights in van and 100 in rear guard and he sees in between more than a thousand.

Yes, more than a thousand. Including peasants with sharpened sticks.

I'm saying there are 2000 Freys with Ryman, and a few hundred less than 2000 with Roose. And a hundred or two garrisoning the Twins and Seagard. Winterfell's garrison was 200, and that was considered high. The 400 at the Twins were a temporary measure when Tywin Lannister was in the area with 20,000 Westermen. Those excess troops would now be out with Ryman and Hosteen, with a smaller garrison remaining.

Giving us around 4000 Freys remaining as of Dance. They lost maybe a thousand in the war, which were replenished at least partly by the peasants with sticks.

Meaning around 5000 troops have been raised in total, including maybe 500 or so peasants with sticks.

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13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes, more than a thousand. Including peasants with sharpened sticks.

I'm saying there are 2000 Freys with Ryman, and a few hundred less than 2000 with Roose. And a hundred or two garrisoning the Twins and Seagard. Winterfell's garrison was 200, and that was considered high. The 400 at the Twins were a temporary measure when Tywin Lannister was in the area with 20,000 Westermen. Those excess troops would now be out with Ryman and Hosteen, with a smaller garrison remaining.

Giving us around 4000 Freys remaining as of Dance. They lost maybe a thousand in the war, which were replenished at least partly by the peasants with sticks.

Meaning around 5000 troops have been raised in total, including maybe 500 or so peasants with sticks.

200 for Winterfell isn't considered high, 200 for Riverrun which is a smaller castle as castles go was. Twins being garrisoned by 100 men is very low, considering it isn't a single castle but actually two castles with an additional tower/keep in the middle. Twins having 400 garrison is only after Tallhart leaves with his 400 and even then they have Roose's 10000 survivng men between them and Tywin. If Twins were average sized then 400 in total would be little over their normal garrison anyway; Rook's Rest an average sized castle at best having a 100 men garrison should mean each of the Twins would have over 100 men as garrison and some small number in the middle tower/keep, so 300 men perhaps. 800 with Tallharts was an extremely large garrison even for Twins, 400 is not so much, at least for Twins.

And peasants with sticks or not it doesn't matter, it just shows that they ran out of equipment, the original 3000 we see is no standing army either so most of them came from the same place as the peasants with pointy sticks.

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12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

200 for Winterfell isn't considered high, 200 for Riverrun which is a smaller castle as castles go was. Twins being garrisoned by 100 men is very low, considering it isn't a single castle but actually two castles with an additional tower/keep in the middle. Twins having 400 garrison is only after Tallhart leaves with his 400 and even then they have Roose's 10000 survivng men between them and Tywin. If Twins were average sized then 400 in total would be little over their normal garrison anyway; Rook's Rest an average sized castle at best having a 100 men garrison should mean each of the Twins would have over 100 men as garrison and some small number in the middle tower/keep, so 300 men perhaps. 800 with Tallharts was an extremely large garrison even for Twins, 400 is not so much, at least for Twins.

And peasants with sticks or not it doesn't matter, it just shows that they ran out of equipment, the original 3000 we see is no standing army either so most of them came from the same place as the peasants with pointy sticks.

I found the Arya quote you referred to. All it says is that Aenys Frey brought 1500 Freys south to Harrenhal. It doesn't say anything about whether the rest had been lost in battle, or had in fact returned to the Twins, or gone elsewhere entirely. So we cannot conclude from this that 1100 Frey infantry had died in battle at that point.

In fact, it is highly noteworthy that Aenys and Hosteen are the commanders of this 1500, and they also happen to be the commanders of the "more than 1500" that Theon sees at Moat Cailin later. There could in fact very easily be a lot of double counting going on.

My view: The Freys lost maybe 500-1000 men in total in the War to date. They replaced these with peasants with sharpened sticks, and split their remaining forces between the 1700 or so with Roose, the 2000 with Ryman and the now reduced garrisons at the Twins and Seagard.

Bringing their total raised to date to between 4500-5000.

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