Military Strengths and More!

[direpupy]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Congratulations, you are finally providing quotes. Though you are still avoiding the Raven/Rider stuff, it is certainly an improvement on your part.

I provided quotes before you just ignored them

As to the raven rider thing i did answer that i will quote myself so you can read it again.

On 11/25/2017 at 1:35 PM, direpupy said:

Yeah the ravens that can get shot down you mean, so in order to not let they enemy have key information you do not put your numbers in there, just like when you send a message with a rider.

If you where not so stubbornly grasping at straws you would have thought of that.

I think that by not addresing the point i bring up about the number of 10000 being unrealisticly round you have shown your hand, you know your wrong but are to stubborn to admit it.

Don't try to hide that i answered you questions it makes you look stupid

9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

By the way, this is you, trying to get solid numbers when we aren't even given "suspiciously round" numbers but just an even more vague description like "two in ten returned", this two in ten comes from "twenty thousand men, or near enough to make no matter" so I guess this number isn't so suspicious to you.

No this is me working with they estimate of 4000, just because i do not put approximately in front of every number does not mean i am assuming exact numbers like you do. 

 It does not matter how many quotes you trow at it GRRM himself has stated that numbers in his books are unreliable so when you see a round number it is a estimate or a best guess, its that simple. 

16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

This is after his meeting with Tywin. Unless you suggest Tywin is uninformed on his own numbers, a force that was with him from the moment he splitted his forces into two, or he was informed but felt so secretive he didn't inform Tyrion on their strength, this is more or less the numbers he has.

 

And he finally admits the numbers are not exact welcome to the real world.

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

While I am at it, the link below is a map of the south, coming from the books. Perhaps you can be kind enough to assist me on understanding how/where could a raven get shot, going from the causeway to Riverrun, with Tywin having no forces in anywhere between the two. It seems I am unable to grasp, stubborn as I am.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/3/3e/The_south_Adwd_map.jpg

There called scouts and outriders and they would be on the lookout for things like messengers and ravens.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

 

US SIGNING TOUR (HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA)

 

In an e-mail to a fan a few years back GRRM stated that Dorne could raise roughly the same number of troops as the North and the Vale. Is this still true?

Did not technically answer the question. He mentioned the size difference between the North and Dorne and talked about the climates for each. He also mentioned that Dorne likes to exaggerate their numbers a bit so as not to seem militarily weak to the other great houses. Reminded us that the men in Westeros have medieval type education. Not every man can count, not every man can read. Gave the example of different mens viewpoints regarding the same army. The first mans count would be 10,000 men. The second man seeing the same host would say it was 5,000...

That is one of my favourite military strength quotes, and one I periodically find and then lose again, as it is not easy to track down in the SSM collection.

I like it, because to me Martin's answer, while trying to be as vague as possible, seems to give a bunch of indirect justifications as to why Dorne's overall strength is lower than that of the North. From the reported answer he takes care to point out:

1. That the North is much bigger than Dorne.

2. That Dorne liked to exaggerate their numbers to not appear weak.  (No such claim is made for the North)

3. That Dorne's numbers were misstated in the past by men who had different viewpoints (Again, no such claim is made for the North).

Taken together, it seems clear to me that Martin is basically confirming that only Dorne's strength was overstated in the past, which is why it was previously considered on a par with the North, when in truth it has a much lower population. (As confirmed by Doran himself when he states that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms).

 

[direpupy]

21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is an observation on Walder's Strength, the guess is near four thousand.

We know the garrison had 400 Frey men, so unless they don't have any information or slightest of ideas on how many Freys joined to them, Brynden Tully and his outriders had a very good guess/observation before the Freys even joined them.

Now this one is interesting here you really have something despite the 400 men garrison Robb still gets 1000 horse and near 3000 foot so that would put the total orginal frey force at over 4000, between 200 and 400 over would be my Guess.

 

[direpupy]

13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Here is also my thoughts on wiki being unreliable, sorry for not bothering to remove the links, I'm just going to copy/paste.

 

In 299 AC, supported by Highgarden and Storm's End, the host of Renly Baratheon is said to number a hundred thousand.^[77] Renly himself claims to have eighty thousand with him at Bitterbridge, while another ten thousand are with Lord Mace Tyrell at Highgarden.^[46] During the siege of Storm's End, Renly brings his cavalry of ten thousand, and claims they will soon be reinforced with a hundred thousand swords and spears.^[74] After Renly's assassination, Catelyn thinks that Renly's ten thousand cavalry will go over to Stannis.^[78] Stannis later tells Ser Cortnay Penrose that he now has twenty thousand men. Renly's foot, near sixty thousand, remains at Bitterbridge, however, and some—especially those of House Florent—are put to death by Lord Randyll Tarly.^[79][80] Exactly how many men from Renly's host were from the Reach, and how many from the stormlands, is unknown, but as House Tyrell is later stated to be able to field seventy thousand men,^[59] and Renly previously had ninety thousand,^[46] it is implied that there were some twenty thousand stormlanders among Renly's forces.

During the Battle of the Blackwater, Stannis's host numbers near twenty thousand knights, light horse, and freeriders.^[72] As he previously had five thousand soldiers,^[74] fifteen thousand men have joined him since Renly's death. As Renly's force at Storm's End only was ten thousand men strong,^[74] made up out of both forces from the stormlands and the reach, the additional five thousand appear to come solely from the stormlands.

 

Catelyn

 

Cressen, Davos and Tyrion(Varys)

 

You know we have a wiki tread on the forum where people can report mistakes they find that does not mean that all the numbers are wrong.

The whole reason i posted the calculations from the wiki before was so you could comment on them and if you found mistakes they could be corrected.

I will have this one corrected, and thank you for pointing it out, which is what i hoped you would/will do with the calculations i posted before.

[Corvo the Crow]

25 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Don't try to hide that i answered you questions it makes you look stupid

 

You never did after this

Quote

And how do you suggest that rider was sent? Crossing across the Ruby Ford perhaps, with days of ride in enemy territory? Or perhaps the rider first went to Twins and then to Riverrun, taking the scenic route? Anything could happen to him and I am not talking about enemy soldiers here, go take look at the origins of house Dondarrion and you would know. If raven messaging is dangerous, then sending a rider is even more so. Go search for the Tickler. He is probably just one we get to see among many interrogators, unless you are suggesting Roose also filled the riders head with wrong numbers and rider didn't know a thing about how numerous they were. 

If sending a raven to Riverrun was seen as too risky then Roose could have just sent a Raven to Twins which is both close to him and has no enemy forces in between and from the Twins they could send one to Riverrun. If it was still seen as too risky then one to Seagard and then Riverrun, in a way where there wouldn't be any enemy presence in the raven's way. And this would still be both faster and safer than sending a rider through either way.

or this

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Back on Roose and raven/rider topic which you insist on avoiding.

 

Quote

Roose Bolton had re-formed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal. And there were two kings in the realm. Two kings, and no agreement.

This is Catelyn XI AGOT

 

Quote

"Which means Lord Tywin will have near twice your numbers."

"Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"

This is ACOK Catelyn V

 

Plenty of time between the times of two quotes for Edmure to be correctly informed on Roose's numbers, whether by raven or by rider, without any fear of either falling into enemy hands. Unless you suggest Roose is uninformed on his own numbers and he is the first of the two men seeing the same host and second man is the one with the correct guess.

 

And I even provided a map

 

29 minutes ago, direpupy said:

And he finally admits the numbers are not exact welcome to the real world.

If you have bothered to look at just some of my posts from the old thread as I suggested instead of throwing around accusations and insults, you would see I never take the numbers as exact. In your words "not putting a ~ every number doesn't mean I take them as exact"

You may even have looked at my post you quoted this from and you could see confirmation coming from FNR too.

But insults and accusations are easier. Sorry I'll stoop down to your level but tell me, please, are you plain stupid or just an attention whore?

[Corvo the Crow]

20 minutes ago, direpupy said:

You know we have a wiki tread on the forum where people can report mistakes they find that does not mean that all the numbers are wrong.

The whole reason i posted the calculations from the wiki before was so you could comment on them and if you found mistakes they could be corrected.

I will have this one corrected, and thank you for pointing it out, which is what i hoped you would/will do with the calculations i posted before.

No I don't. know that as I don't check every other part of the forum.

[direpupy]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No I don't. know that as I don't check every other part of the forum.

Thats why i just informed you, this was not a critique. And i have changed the mistake you spoted on the Wiki and thank you for pointing it out

 

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

You never did after this

or this

 

And I even provided a map

 

If you have bothered to look at just some of my posts from the old thread as I suggested instead of throwing around accusations and insults, you would see I never take the numbers as exact. In your words "not putting a ~ every number doesn't mean I take them as exact"

You may even have looked at my post you quoted this from and you could see confirmation coming from FNR too.

But insults and accusations are easier. Sorry I'll stoop down to your level but tell me, please, are you plain stupid or just an attention whore?

Do my tone may have been unfriendly, hostile even at certain points i have never insulted you so you did not stoop to my level you went far below it. 

But if you felt insulted then i apoligise for it that was not my intention.

I saw your map does not change a thing, you still have Tywins scouts and outriders who can intercept and there are also the Lannister garrisons in captured castles. And they are in between the Twins and Riverrun, for example at the beginning of the war both Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge are captured and they are west of the Trident. These castles get retaken but this is happening in the same time frame as Roose marching to take the Ruby Ford and the Crossroads so before that Tywin does still have forces west of the trident in between Roose/the Twins and Edmure/Riverrun 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

 Jonos Bracken was wounded in the fighting amidst the ruins of his castle, and his nephew Hendry slain. Tytos Blackwood's swept the Lannisters off his lands, but they took every cow and pig and speck of grain and left him nothing to defend but Raventree Hall and a scorched desert. Darry men recaptured their lord's keep but held it less than a fortnight before Gregor Clegane descended on them and put the whole garrison to the sword, even their lord."

As to this question.

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

unless you are suggesting Roose also filled the riders head with wrong numbers and rider didn't know a thing about how numerous they were. 

He would not have told the rider his numbers at all to make sure the enemy would not find out, such a rider would be exactly the kind of person GRRM talks about in the quote i provide before. 

US SIGNING TOUR (HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA)

In an e-mail to a fan a few years back GRRM stated that Dorne could raise roughly the same number of troops as the North and the Vale. Is this still true?

Did not technically answer the question. He mentioned the size difference between the North and Dorne and talked about the climates for each. He also mentioned that Dorne likes to exaggerate their numbers a bit so as not to seem militarily weak to the other great houses. Reminded us that the men in Westeros have medieval type education. Not every man can count, not every man can read. Gave the example of different mens viewpoints regarding the same army. The first mans count would be 10,000 men. The second man seeing the same host would say it was 5,000...

And if you do not take every number as exact then why do you insist that the number of men Roose had must be 10000 just because Edmure says so?

Anyway i feel this had escalated and hope we can deescalate it.

You did not respond to the post where i acknowledge you found good evidence that they original Frey army is over 4000 strong that does change the numbers on the Frey strength. So i congratulate you on that find which is very useful.  

[Loren the last]

I never understood the Greyjoy numbers. Euron Greyjoy is said to have built 1000 ships Harys Swyft says that someone most likely has counted double but why would the Reader himself say that they have a 1000 ships.

Now if we except that he has built 1000 ships the problem is manning the ships the Romans had 100 sailors and 300 marines on board there ships but the iron islands could never support 400,000 men nor could any other region.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

On ‎2017‎/‎11‎/‎28 at 10:18 PM, Loren the last said:

I never understood the Greyjoy numbers. Euron Greyjoy is said to have built 1000 ships Harys Swyft says that someone most likely has counted double but why would the Reader himself say that they have a 1000 ships.

Now if we except that he has built 1000 ships the problem is manning the ships the Romans had 100 sailors and 300 marines on board there ships but the iron islands could never support 400,000 men nor could any other region.

 

Yeah, so the best way to explain the Ironborn number, is to approach it from two sides. On the one side, they are able to raise a much higher percentage of their population to arms than the mainland kingdoms can, according to Martin himself, because apparently almost every able bodied man takes up reaving at some stage of his life. Reaving is obviously a temporary affair, and generates the resources to support the campaign itself, from the loot and plunder of the reaving exercise. That is after all the purpose behind it. To INCREASE their meagre resources. So where other kingdoms go to war for territory or border conflicts or what have you, and thus expend food and other precious resources in the conflict, the Ironborn go out reaving to increase their resource base from plunder.

So point one, if other kingdoms raise say 1-2% of their population to war, the Ironborn may raise as many as 10% of their population to war (for limited periods of time, obviously).

And then from the other side, their ships are generally much smaller than mainland warships, so a crew of maybe 30 men or so are sufficient for the average longship (the Ironfleet excluded). Some smaller longships may have only 20 men on board, for all we know. And maybe they make up the bulk of the fleet.

In any case, let's assume 500 common longships with around 30 men on average, and 100 Ironfleet ships with 100 men apiece. That gives you 25,000 reavers altogether.

Now, if you assume that this is 10% of their total population, that gives you a population of 250,000 on the Iron Isles.  Maybe they don't quite raise 10%, but 7-8% instead, which would give them about 350k people in total, give or take.

That seems about right, compared to large mainland kingdoms like the North which may have around 5 million people or so, but which can raise a far smaller percentage of that population to war.

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎27‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 3:38 PM, direpupy said:

Do my tone may have been unfriendly, hostile even at certain points i have never insulted you so you did not stoop to my level you went far below it. 

But if you felt insulted then i apoligise for it that was not my intention.

 

I have said more than once that you are being accusive and have also stated my earlier posts are full of information contrary to the accusation.

I apoligise for my words as I have never intended for this to escelate but after several times pointing out to the old posts and stating the accusations, I thought that perhaps some of the things you wrote are only thinly veiled insults, after all this is the internets.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎30‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 10:06 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, so the best way to explain the Ironborn number, is to approach it from two sides. On the one side, they are able to raise a much higher percentage of their population to arms than the mainland kingdoms can, according to Martin himself, because apparently almost every able bodied man takes up reaving at some stage of his life. Reaving is obviously a temporary affair, and generates the resources to support the campaign itself, from the loot and plunder of the reaving exercise. That is after all the purpose behind it. To INCREASE their meagre resources. So where other kingdoms go to war for territory or border conflicts or what have you, and thus expend food and other precious resources in the conflict, the Ironborn go out reaving to increase their resource base from plunder.

So point one, if other kingdoms raise say 1-2% of their population to war, the Ironborn may raise as many as 10% of their population to war (for limited periods of time, obviously).

And then from the other side, their ships are generally much smaller than mainland warships, so a crew of maybe 30 men or so are sufficient for the average longship (the Ironfleet excluded). Some smaller longships may have only 20 men on board, for all we know. And maybe they make up the bulk of the fleet.

In any case, let's assume 500 common longships with around 30 men on average, and 100 Ironfleet ships with 100 men apiece. That gives you 25,000 reavers altogether.

Now, if you assume that this is 10% of their total population, that gives you a population of 250,000 on the Iron Isles.  Maybe they don't quite raise 10%, but 7-8% instead, which would give them about 350k people in total, give or take.

That seems about right, compared to large mainland kingdoms like the North which may have around 5 million people or so, but which can raise a far smaller percentage of that population to war.

First post. It lacks sources at the moment but most of it is sourced information with some being calculations/guesses based on sources.

When Balon's ships are gathering, Theon says all the captains are there except ships from two lords who are on the way. There were near 400 at that time excluding those on way.

Iron fleet are on par with smaller war galleys(those with fewer than 80 oars), longships are a third the size. Theon's ship of 50 is somewhere in between, closer to Ironfleet ships if I'm not mistaken.

 

A sidenote: Theon gave six ships to Aeron, kept only his and Cleftjaw's, leaving the better part of the crew of these two to Dagmer. Theon's ship was 50 oars, Dagmers and Aeron's should be around this number too with the rest being regular long ships with 20 men gives us 250 men. Asha's 1000 at Deepwood is 4-5 times their number they say, so this fits.

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎27‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 2:26 PM, direpupy said:

Now this one is interesting here you really have something despite the 400 men garrison Robb still gets 1000 horse and near 3000 foot so that would put the total orginal frey force at over 4000, between 200 and 400 over would be my Guess.

 

Not neccesarily. Tyrion with his 4400 gold cloaks says they have near five thousand gold cloaks.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

Quote

 

Roose Bolton had re-formed the battered remnants of their other host at the mouth of the causeway. Ser Helman Tallhart and Walder Frey still held the Twins. Lord Tywin's army had crossed the Trident, and was making for Harrenhal. And there were two kings in the realm. Two kings, and no agreement.

 

 

Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"

...

"Edmure, Robb left those men to hold the Twins and make certain Lord Walder keeps faith with us."

"He has," Edmure said stubbornly. "The Freys fought bravely in the Whispering Wood, and old Ser Stevron died at Oxcross, we hear. Ser Ryman and Black Walder and the rest are with Robb in the west, Martyn has been of great service scouting, and Ser Perwyn helped see you safe to Renly. Gods be good, how much more can we ask of them? Robb's betrothed to one of Lord Walder's daughters, and Roose Bolton wed another, I hear. And haven't you taken two of his grandsons to be fostered at Winterfell?"

 

....

"If we're two hostages to the good, all the more reason Lord Walder dare not play us false. Bolton needs Frey's men, and Ser Helman's as well. I've commanded him to retake Harrenhal."

 

 

 

 

"We must not allow Lord Tywin to trap us here at Harrenhal," Ser Aenys Frey was saying as Arya filled the washbasin. A grey stooped giant of a man with watery red eyes and huge gnarled hands, Ser Aenys had brought fifteen hundred Frey swords south to Harrenhal, yet it often seemed as if he were helpless to command even his own brothers. "The castle is so large it requires an army to hold it, and once surrounded we cannot feed an army. Nor can we hope to lay in sufficient supplies. The country is ash, the villages given over to wolves, the harvest burnt or stolen. Autumn is on us, yet there is no food in store and none being planted. We live on forage, and if the Lannisters deny that to us, we will be down to rats and shoe leather in a moon's turn."

 

 

Some quotes

 

With these quotes, it seems possible that Roose's 10000 could be Northman only, meaning he'd have 10400 Northman with Tallhart's men.

 

If this is true, going with exact numbers, Roose would have 6350 men before Gregor attacked him so Duskendale casualties would be 4150.

 

If Robb had exactly 23500 men with Freys, then, excluding 1000 as garrisons, and 5000-6000 as cavalry, Roose Bolton had 16500-17500 infantry, 2600 (at most) Freys included. Without the Freys, Roose would have 13900-14900 Northman infantry with him, meaning his Northman casualties from Greenfork would be 3900-4900.

 

Considering these are all rounded figures, Roose may actually be telling the truth when he says Duskendale casualties were worse then Greenfork, if he's thinking of Northman casualties only.

Quote

"The last thing we need is the Mountain at our backs when we start up the causeway," said Robb. "You did well, my lord."

"Your Grace is too kind. I suffered grievous losses on the Green Fork, and Glover and Tallhart worse at Duskendale."

 

 

 

 

Below is also something I believe should prove that the thousand Karstarks Roose speak of are not remnants of Duskendale.

Quote

price would be the maid, and safe refuge.

"But to sell you he must keep you, and the riverlands are full of those who would gladly steal you away. Glover and Tallhart were broken at Duskendale, but remnants of their host are still abroad, with the Mountain slaughtering the stragglers. A thousand Karstarks prowl the lands south and east of Riverrun, hunting you. Elsewhere are Darry men left lordless and lawless, packs of four-footed wolves, and the lightning lord's outlaw bands. Dondarrion would gladly hang you and the goat together from the same tree." The Lord of the Dreadfort sopped up some of the blood with a chunk of bread. "Harrenhal was the only place Lord Vargo could hope to hold you safe, but here his Brave Companions are much outnumbered by my own men, and by Ser Aenys and his Freys. No doubt he feared I might return you to Ser Edmure at Riverrun . . . or worse, send you on to your father.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On Redwyne Fleet

This is Salladhor's fleet before Blackwater.

Quote

The port was as crowded as Davos had ever known it. Every dock teemed with sailors loading provisions, and every inn was packed with soldiers dicing or drinking or looking for a whore . . . a vain search, since Stannis permitted none on his island. Ships lined the strand; war galleys and fishing vessels, stout carracks and fat-bottomed cogs. The best berths had been taken by the largest vessels: Stannis's flagship Fury rocking between Lord Steffon and Stag of the Sea, Lord Velaryon's silver-hulled Pride of Driftmark and her three sisters, Lord Celtigar's ornate Red Claw, the ponderous Swordfish with her long iron prow. Out to sea at anchor rode Salladhor Saan's great Valyrian amongst the striped hulls of two dozen smaller Lysene galleys.

 

And this is after Blackwater

Quote

But who would be mad enough to contest Joffrey's rule now, after what had befallen Stannis Baratheon and Robb Stark? There was still fighting in the riverlands, but everywhere the coils were tightening. Ser Gregor Clegane had crossed the Trident and seized the ruby ford, then captured Harrenhal almost effortlessly. Seagard had yielded to Black Walder Frey, Lord Randyll Tarly held Maidenpool, Duskendale, and the kingsroad. In the west, Ser Daven Lannister had linked up with Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth for a march on Riverrun. Ser Ryman Frey was leading two thousand spears down from the Twins to join them. And Paxter Redwyne claimed his fleet would soon set sail from the Arbor, to begin the long voyage around Dorne and through the Stepstones. Stannis's Lyseni pirates would be outnumbered ten to one. The struggle that the maesters were calling the War of the Five Kings was all but at an end. Mace Tyrell had been heard complaining that Lord Tywin had left no victories for him.

 

[direpupy]

On 1-12-2017 at 6:36 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I have said more than once that you are being accusive and have also stated my earlier posts are full of information contrary to the accusation.

I apoligise for my words as I have never intended for this to escelate but after several times pointing out to the old posts and stating the accusations, I thought that perhaps some of the things you wrote are only thinly veiled insults, after all this is the internets.

 

No they where not meant as insults and i actually read the old post, as a matter of fact i followed the discussion on they old tread before this, even do i only decided to join the discussion on this new tread.

Do you do say some interesting things on they old tread they do little to change my opinion.

[direpupy]

On 1-12-2017 at 7:16 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Not neccesarily. Tyrion with his 4400 gold cloaks says they have near five thousand gold cloaks.

True but Tyrion was exayerating for effect there, he is trying to impress Oberyn thats why he also states that the forces of his father are 20000 men even do we the reader know that was his approximate strengt at the Green Fork and he lost men since in bettle and to atrition.

So i do not think that this can aplied to the Frey force where we have 400 men garrison 1000 horse and near 3000 foot as stated numbers without the need to impress someone. so i do think 4400 for the original force is the maximum.

so asumming they still have a 400 men garisson. And that the 1500 men that the Freys have at Harrenhall after all the fighthing means they lost half of the 3000 foot that went with Roose. Combined with they estamite made earlier in this tread of an other 100 men loss in the horse that went with Robb, in order for them to field 4000 men, 2000 in the North and 2000 at Riverrun  they would have had to raise an extra 1600 men. But i do still beleive not all of these are of good quality and should really not be counted as real strength. so in total numbers they probably have raised abot 6000, but in actuall fighting strengt i.e. troops that are not cannon fodder i would say they have between 5000 and 5500 that they could raise before there losses. 

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎03‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 4:49 PM, direpupy said:

True but Tyrion was exayerating for effect there, he is trying to impress Oberyn thats why he also states that the forces of his father are 20000 men even do we the reader know that was his approximate strengt at the Green Fork and he lost men since in bettle and to atrition.

So i do not think that this can aplied to the Frey force where we have 400 men garrison 1000 horse and near 3000 foot as stated numbers without the need to impress someone. so i do think 4400 for the original force is the maximum.

so asumming they still have a 400 men garisson. And that the 1500 men that the Freys have at Harrenhall after all the fighthing means they lost half of the 3000 foot that went with Roose. Combined with they estamite made earlier in this tread of an other 100 men loss in the horse that went with Robb, in order for them to field 4000 men, 2000 in the North and 2000 at Riverrun  they would have had to raise an extra 1600 men. But i do still beleive not all of these are of good quality and should really not be counted as real strength. so in total numbers they probably have raised abot 6000, but in actuall fighting strengt i.e. troops that are not cannon fodder i would say they have between 5000 and 5500 that they could raise before there losses. 

Tyrion didn't need to exaggarate the City Watch numbers to impress Oberyn, He already has the "fifty, sixty, seventy thousand roses" and his father's swords which "must account for another twenty thousand." We know Tywin couldn't have this many at the time and Tyrion knows it too that is why he says "must account" he knows there are casualties, he doesn't know how many are left so he says the number he knows, both to intimidate and he has no idea on real numbers remaining.

 

Some other examples similar to this would be

Theon saying "Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter" But we as the readers know at best Robb had 19500 men when all his strength gathered at MC. 19000, give or take a couple hundred would be the real number I think because Robb's 18000 could very well be a little lower than that and Manderly numbers aren't 1500 at the first place, but "near fifteen hundred" We know from Stannis' force that thirteen hundred can very well be "some fifteen hundred"

 

Stannis' remainig men on Dragonstone, as said above, is thirteen hundred according to Stannis and some fifteen hundred according to Axell.

 

Rodrik's near two thousand men. At best I can put it to 1900

Quote

Theon studied their banners through Maester Luwin's Myrish lens tube. The Cerwyn battle-axe flapped bravely wherever he looked, and there were Tallhart trees as well, and mermen from White Harbor. Less common were the sigils of Flint and Karstark. Here and there he even saw the bull moose of the Hornwoods. But no Glovers, Asha saw to them, no Boltons from the Dreadfort, no Umbers come down from the shadow of the Wall. Not that they were needed.

Rodrik had 600, Cerwyns had 300. Theon sees, Tallhart and Manderly banners along with Cerwyn ones. Flint and Karstark banners are not so numerous and Hornwood banners are only seen "here and there".

600 for Rodrik, 300 for Cerwyn, 250 for Tallhart, Manderly, 200 for Flint and Karstark and 100 for Hornwood gives 1900. Tallhart and Manderly numbers are probably closer to Cerwyns 300 with Flint and Karstark even fewer than 200 to be "less common", Hornwoods are so few I don't think they had even 100 there but this is just to get a rough estimate on near 2000.

 

 

[direpupy]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Tyrion didn't need to exaggarate the City Watch numbers to impress Oberyn, He already has the "fifty, sixty, seventy thousand roses" and his father's swords which "must account for another twenty thousand." We know Tywin couldn't have this many at the time and Tyrion knows it too that is why he says "must account" he knows there are casualties, he doesn't know how many are left so he says the number he knows, both to intimidate and he has no idea on real numbers remaining.

Then why does he say 5000 when he knows its only 4400? Tyrion exaggerates the numbers plain and simple. 

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Theon saying "Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter" But we as the readers know at best Robb had 19500 men when all his strength gathered at MC. 19000, give or take a couple hundred would be the real number I think because Robb's 18000 could very well be a little lower than that and Manderly numbers aren't 1500 at the first place, but "near fifteen hundred" We know from Stannis' force that thirteen hundred can very well be "some fifteen hundred"

Robb's numbers could also very well be higher so i would not make the assumption that is was lower then 19500 so easily.

 

18 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

600 for Rodrik, 300 for Cerwyn, 250 for Tallhart, Manderly, 200 for Flint and Karstark and 100 for Hornwood gives 1900. Tallhart and Manderly numbers are probably closer to Cerwyns 300 with Flint and Karstark even fewer than 200 to be "less common", Hornwoods are so few I don't think they had even 100 there but this is just to get a rough estimate on near 2000.

I generally agree with those numbers Rodrik has less then 2000 men that much is clear from the books.

But as to your breakdown apart from the 600 men Rodrik gathered from they area of Winterfell and the 300 Cerwyn men we do not know there numbers nor do we know if only one house Flint send troops there are after all three houses flint.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Another imprecise number we get is Stannis's "5000" in Winds.

Jon expects him to get between 2000 and 3000 from the Mountain Clans. Let's assume the middle of those two figures, at 2500. He supposedly had around 1300 southroners with him, unless some stayed with the queen at the Wall, reducing his number further. Let's go with 1300 to start with.

That takes his numbers up to around 3800.

Then we know the Mormonts join him with an unknown number of men, let's say that takes him to 4000.

Then he says men are streaming to him from the Wolfswood, Hornwood and other lands.

The interesting part is that he says he has 5000 men by that point, and more are coming in every day. My question is where that number topped out at. Did it get to 6000, or did it stop at 5500, for example?

And then it started dropping, thanks to the cold count. But we don't really have a cold count number, except that it is primarily southroners who are dying, and even then they seem to count in the tens, maybe the low hundreds, rather than a mass die off. We don't really know how many he is left with at the end, and his 5,000 may in fact be 6,000 for all we know, if the numbers kept growing well beyond the 5,000 point that he reported to Jon.

And then the 400 Karstarks also arrive, of course, which are not included in his numbers, for obvious reasons.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Then why does he say 5000 when he knows its only 4400? Tyrion exaggerates the numbers plain and simple. 

Robb's numbers could also very well be higher so i would not make the assumption that is was lower then 19500 so easily.

 

I generally agree with those numbers Rodrik has less then 2000 men that much is clear from the books.

But as to your breakdown apart from the 600 men Rodrik gathered from they area of Winterfell and the 300 Cerwyn men we do not know there numbers nor do we know if only one house Flint send troops there are after all three houses flint.

 

In all my searches, I've found only once that the numbers are rounded down and it's rounded down part is not even 1/1000 of the main number.

Quote

 

That was sweet to hear, but Cersei took care not to seem too eager. "Your High Holiness spoke of forgiveness earlier. In these troubled times, King Tommen would be most grateful if you could see your way to forgiving the crown's debt. It seems to me we owe the Faith some nine hundred thousand dragons."

"Nine hundred thousand six hundred and seventy-four dragons. Gold that could feed the hungry and rebuild a thousand septs."

 

Unless you can point towards some other rounded down numbers like this, then the trend must be rounding the numbers up, not down.