Why did not Daemon Targaryen rebel against Rhaenyra after she ordered to murder Nettles?

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Mockery is not the same as wishing someone dead. I know that its kind of a popular sentiment in much fiction to kill, or wish people dead, for dislike in general but I don't think that's the case in Westeros. Baelor Breakspear didn't arrange for Aerion to be murdered despite the fact that Baelor proboably didn't like Aerion very much. Thus just because Aemond may have fancy notions of his own worth does not mean that Aemond didn't risk his life for Aegon II's case or that he wished his older brother dead. The most important part of this is that Aemond never took the title king.

We are talking about tendencies here. A man wearing a crown and sitting a throne he has no right to shows he likes to being king. Regents and princes don't wear crowns nor do they sit thrones. And it is pretty clear that Aemond seized the regency, it was not formally or legally offered to him by the Small Council or other authorities. People didn't even consult the king himself (who must have been sane and aware at least some time) on the matter.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

No. The one with the title of king is the king. Bloodraven and Tywin also ruled more than their respective kings but neither of them were kings or seems to have sought to be kings regardless of how much power they had. If Aemond wanted to be the king then he would have taken the royal title as well. The fact that he didn't shows that he didn't want to be king.

He couldn't take the royal title while his older brother was still alive. But it is an interesting question whether he had ever given up the power he seized if Aegon had recovered while he was still in the capital. A king can be confined to his apartments indefinitely. Aemond could have declared the cripple to be permanently unfit to rule because of his drug abuse, character, whatever. He was the warrior-prince with the largest dragon alive, and Aegon was basically a dragonless cripple at that point.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

No. In light of his aversion to claiming the throne it shows that he's very much fighting for his older brother and that he does not intend to steal the crown from his nephew. Aemond had many flaws but he was not a Maegor to press a claim against his own brother's sons under the pretension of practicality. 

You have no textual evidence for any of that. What evidence we do have is that Aemond was both willing and capable to seize power and dominate an entire court he had no right to dominate. He actually made all the stupid decisions that led to the Greens losing the capital and the throne. And some of the people around him knew that the march against Harrenhal was nonsense. But their opinions didn't really matter because Aemond had all the power.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I actually disagree. I think you are right in that both of them were kind of the same personality types. But power wasn't the game here. It was glory and recognition as well as an attraction for violence to solve disputes. If you want to look at power as the main attraction then I would think that Aegon II, Alicent and Rhaenyra was more into that kind of person. I do not deny tha Daemon felt attracted to power but I don't see it as his main motivating force. In my opinion obscurity was more threatening to him than being powerless.

You are going completely against the text here. Daemon's entire biography is the story of a man who craved ultimate power. He had no idea what to do with it should he ever get it, but it is quite clear that his entire life since around 101 AC was focused on a quest to seize ultimate power in Westeros. He wanted to control the Iron Throne.

Aegon II and Alicent never craved power the same way. Alicent wanted her son(s) to follow her husband, she was, essentially, craving power for her children because she felt they had a right to do it. And Aegon II was a whoremonger and glutton, much more interested in enjoying the pleasant sides of being a royal prince than actually craving power. We never see him doing anything to topple Rhaenyra as Heir Apparent or being involved in any meaningful way to seize the throne. His momma and granddad do all that for him.

And Rhaenyra was pushed into the role of Heir Apparent by her father. She never said anything like 'Dad, you know, I'd make a really fine queen. Why do you not make me your successor.' Once she was named the heiress she did everything to remain the heiress, but that's just natural. Pretty much anyone would have done that. If your father decided to give the family company - and the vast wealth attached to it - to you, you would be completely stupid to reject that.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Absolutely. Westeros is a barbaric place and reverts to barbaric means at many times.

Not really political. That's how the social construction in Westeros is created and what kind of norms are drilled into the people as they grow up. But to a degree you are right in how it governs people's behavior.

It is the way political struggles are resolved in a state of war. In peace times we have 'the king's peace', so such issues are resolved by iron justice of the Iron Throne. But right now - and during the Dance - blood feuds, betrayals, assassinations, etc. are not only legitimate means of policy, they are also the only means to ensure the survival of yourself and your family, not to mention to get the vengeance or justice you crave.

All people are forced to do this. Look at the decrepit thing Lord Manderly did to his Frey guests. Sure, he got around breaking guest right, but he still lied to those very same guests, gave them gifts, and most likely gleefully stood there after they had received their guest gifts telling them what he would be doing to them now, and then watching how his men butchered them. 

One can say they deserved that kind of thing - although I'm not sure about that - but this whole thing is still a vile crime even by the standards of the society they live in.

And many other of the 'good guys' will be forced to commit similar (or even worse) crimes to put down the other villains.

This isn't a society where it is unjust or wrong to target the family of an enemy if you can. That is what blood feuds, personal honor, and the honor of a noble house are all about. You harm my family/honor and I strike back in kind. That's how it is done.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Well, they dared to rebell against Maegor as well. Just because you have dragons don't mean that everyone will roll over for you. And that's something that I think that Danaerys fans will find to their suprise. Everyone will not just roll over for Danaerys because she has dragons and she will not auto-win because she has dragons.

They rebelled against Aenys and they continued to rebel against Maegor because they had no other choice. The Faith Militant was fighting for its survival. They had to kill the abominations or be killed in turn. If Aenys had continued 'to rule' on Dragonstone and Maegor remained in exile, the Targaryen rule in Westeros would have ended. The lords - even the great houses - would have denounced them, and the Faith would, in a sense, have taken over the South while the Lord of Winterfell would have made himself a new winter crown.

 If Maegor had succeeded the Conqueror directly the Faith may have not dared to provoke the rider of Balerion the same way. But Aenys was the king, and he was weak. And despite his weakness he had the power to remove Maegor and Balerion from the equation and control even Visenya.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

No, not at all. Rhaenyra is the monarch while Daemon is only a consort to that monarch. Rhaenyra is the one with power in that relationship and Daemon has no right to do anything but obey his queen. It is not for him to judge the queen for her power is absolute and that is regardless of her mental health. In fact if Daemon had tried that all but those who were in on the plot to overthrow Rhaenyra would see it as the naken rebellion it would be.

That is just nonsense. Daemon was the most powerful person in her government, the man commanding her armies, the man whose very existence and reputation as a battle commander was the only thing that gave her entire campaign the necessary weight to not die on Dragonstone then and there. Without Daemon the Hightowers would have dealt with Rhaenyra in a matter of weeks. She didn't have the stomach to face her enemies on dragonback, or allow her sons to do the same. Without that it would have been Meleys against Vhagar and Dreamfyre. And we know how that ended.

And legal issues and technicalities in the middle of a bloody civil matter not in the slightest. The barbarism the Dance established continued even in the 'peaceful time' of the Regency, as the murder of Queen Jaehaera shows.

When King's Landing rose against Rhaenyra most of her people abandoned her. If Daemon had turned against his wife those people caring about 'the Black cause' and their own survival would have stood with him rather than the weak-willed and erratic queen.

But again, we don't have to go about this whole thing being known to anyone. Daemon could take a couple of trusted watchmen with him, confine his wife to her apartments, and then tell her council and court that his beloved wife is indisposed and has entrusted him with leading House Targaryen through this dreadful crisis. People would have rejoiced at the prospect of a manly and competent man like Daemon taking the reins of the government.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

In short Daemon has no right to judge or confine his queen. His position is to advice and obey. And that's the end of it.

Who cares about that, really? Tywin also has no right to tell the king when he is tired. But he does it all the same.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Its really enought that Corlys is present for he was Rhaenyra's man and continued to be so also after his imprisonment. He would not accept Daemon to remove Rhaenyra and would be more likely to attempt to get back into his queen's favor by freeing her than going along with Daemon's scheme.

There is no proof that Corlys was Rhaenyra's man after she tried to arrest Addam and ended up arresting him. Chances are that Corlys remained loyal to Rhaenyra's son, Aegon the Younger, and preferred him to king who had killed his wife as well as very much interested in ensuring the survival and future of his granddaughters by Daemon and Laena, but I'm rather confident that Rhaenyra Targaryen was pretty much dead to him after she madly accused his son Addam of treason without any evidence whatsoever. And subsequently had the audacity to arrest him, too. 

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Maegor tried that route as well. Didn't work out very well in the long run for him either. So sure Daemon would could be a new Maegor and hold on to power for a few years, but in the end he would not survive better than Maegor did.

Who cares about any of that? The question we are discussing here is not how things would have turned out in the end, the question is how promising this kind of thing may have looked to Daemon in comparison to certain suicide.

Daemon could have burned KL, he could have seized power in KL in the name of his son, he could have fed his treacherous wife to his dragon, he could have done a long list of atrocities and he could have still challenged Aemond Targaryen to a dragon duel when all hope was truly lost. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

The question here is simply is: Why on earth did Daemon Targaryen feel all hope was lost and a glorious exit was a good idea when he made that decision. And the fact simply is: The text we have available doesn't really answer this question. The only explanations that makes sense (for me) is that the man was mad. And then the scenario where Nettles may have been his daughter would make more sense than the affair thing, because it is ridiculous to kill yourself when there is a person around you still love (very much).

But to make sense of the whole thing from the point of view of Daemon being a man who acted rationally or who was not suffering from the 'Targaryen madness' thing in a milder variety doesn't lead anywhere.

Even normal people suffering from depression and deciding to end their lives are not making rational choices. Daemon wouldn't have, either. And in his case we can't assume a long-going, deep depression, but rather a spur of the moment thing which is very much consistent with the Targaryen madness thing. 

Aerys II could have made a similar choice. Just imagine some impulse during his grief over the death of this or that child causing him to realize that he was the one responsible. He could have jumped out of the window in such a mood. Or he could have decided it was Rhaella, gone into a mad frenzy, stabbing her to death, and jumping out of the window once he had realized what he had done.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

She was respected enough for armies to have been in the field for her and people dying for her, lords dying of their own free will to fight for her. And again look at Maegor. A big dragon does not mean that all your enemies fall over themselves to surrende to you.

This doesn't mean people who have big dragons don't believe they can't force people into submission. Especially if the number of dragons has been reduced dramatically. Aemond thought nobody could harm him while he had Vhagar. And he was right at that. No other dragonrider could harm but one who didn't care whether he survived or died while facing him.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Corlys and Addam were both pretty hard core for Rhanyra or else it seems more reasonable that Corlys would have thrown in their support behind Aegon II when he actually freed them. But we know that Corlys didn't really support Aegon II but undermined his new king with schemes and finally murdering Aegon II.

We actually don't know this for a fact. We don't know who murdered Aegon II. And we also don't know whether Corlys was willing to murder Aegon II while the man had still a chance to win. The man was only murdered when his court had to choose between futile resistance and their own survival.

But again - being against Aegon II or for Aegon III doesn't include that you are also for Rhaenyra. Assuming that's the same is ridiculous.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I see no reason as to why Corlys would be more favorable to Daemon if Rhaenyra just happened ot die while in Daemon's care. People are not that stupid and always ready to think the worst of people with power over them. Just like people could figure out that Tyrion killed Tywin, so they could figure out that Daemon killed Rhaenyra.

Corlys and Addam would most likely have been more than happy that 'the mad whore' was finally gone. She attacked them. And Daemon was Corlys' own son-in-law, a son-in-law who actually fathered children on his daughter.

Rhaenyra and Corlys had quarreled at least once before, in the wake of Rhaenys' death.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

And he would be arrested on the spot as soon as he's separated from his dragon or possibly facing Black dragons coming to fight him. He's not going to walz into the Red Keep and issue a ton of orders that people will obey.

You really don't care much about the text, do you? We do know that Rhaenyra had ordered Lord Mooton in her letter to Maidenpool to send Daemon back to KL after Nettles was dead, because she was in grave need of her consort. Rhaenyra expected Daemon to come back to her. If he had come, nobody would have arrested him. Instead, they would have all welcomed him, and Rhaenyra would have most likely have charged him with organizing the defense of the city against the Hightower army. That would have laid all the power in his hands. Staging a coup under those circumstances would have been remarkably easy.

And once Rhaenyra was dealt with, one way or the other, Caraxes, Sheepstealer, and Tyraxes could have made easily enough short work out of the gang at Tumbleton. Especially if they had teamed up with Addam's army. If not, they could have burned the remnants of Peake's army after Second Tumbleton.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Putting a ruling queen in her place is no easy feat as people have an obligation to obey her, not Daemon. And we can see in the case of Aerys II that there are many people who are perfectly ready to follow the commands of a mad ruler.

Sure, but Aerys II wasn't woman whose most powerful ally and support was his uncle-husband, right?

The Blacks don't need Rhaenyra ruling for their cause. They could just as well her claim passed through her to Daemon's son by her. Or to Joffrey Velaryon, etc. Pushing aside a woman should be very easy because many people in Rhaenyra's camp wouldn't have been that comfortable with this female monarch anyway. Many of them would have just followed her because she had a strong man at her side, a man who was king in all but name.

6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really. A death in battle and a blaze of glory for coming generations to remember would be more in character for him than to try and fight the whole world by himself and be condemned by that very same world for all time to come. At that point legacy was more important than power for Daemon.

We don't know that the Harrenhal thing secured his legacy, do we? He could have just as well be branded as a mad fool by posterity for throwing away his life when ultimate power was in his grasp. Like Caesar condemned Sulla for retiring when he had Rome at her knees and all the power in his hands.

And again - he could have gotten that glorious exit at some point of the future. His dragon was not going anywhere. And even if Caraxes had died, there were other dragons in the Dragonpit he could claim.

[Aegon1FanBoy]

I think it was has his brother Visaerys said being a father changed him. Compare him to before he fell for leana and had kids and when he finally married his neice and had more. He really became alot calmer i think Nettle just brought out the youth once more and he did not feel he would go back to that. So what does he do get rid of the biggest threat to his children before he dies. I think the green men may have also shown him wisdom and the folly of his ways as well, much like what the hound may be going through.

[chrisdaw]

Fight for the other side, whom he hated? Become a turncloak? You say why didn't he just fight against Rhaenyra like it's nothing. He saw a fitting end, one which did not stain him, and he took it.