Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Ser_ Felipe Dayne

Jon is one Wight?

22 posts in this topic

Just like Beric and Catelyn he was revived once, so does that make him a Wight like the two?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Ser_ Felipe Dayne said:

Just like Beric and Catelyn he was revived once, so does that make him a Wight like the two?

According to GRRM's logic he stated in an interview, yes, Jon's a 'fire wight'.

Not that it's gonna stop D&D making him act completely like a living person and fuck Dany and have kids and live happily ever after 'cause he's ossummmmm.

TV only fans, get hype, I guess, Jon's finally metamorphosed into the boring Aragorn you've always wanted. Except even more boring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Not that it's gonna stop D&D making him act completely like a living person

To be fair, Beric Dondarrion acted like a living person (at least at first sight) and that was after being brought back to live half a dozen times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the fire wight concept a new thing? The first i heard of it was in that time interview this year. 

I wonder if this is an example of the garnder at work. 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

To be fair, Beric Dondarrion acted like a living person (at least at first sight) and that was after being brought back to live half a dozen times.

Not really. He repeatedly mentions having forgotten his betrothed, where his seat is, etc, etc. He says each time he comes back, he feels a little less like him, both on the show and in the books.

There's no price to Jon's resurrection, though, because derp-de-do, he's the hero, plus, Kit Harrington's hot, let's ignore that he's a zombie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Not really. He repeatedly mentions having forgotten his betrothed, where his seat is, etc, etc. He says each time he comes back, he feels a little less like him, both on the show and in the books.

There's no price to Jon's resurrection, though, because derp-de-do, he's the hero, plus, Kit Harrington's hot, let's ignore that he's a zombie.

That’s pretty lame example. Beric tells not shows. Nothing of what he shows indicates any difference nor that he is a zombie. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

That’s pretty lame example. Beric tells not shows. Nothing of what he shows indicates any difference nor that he is a zombie. 

Well, in the show, yeah, he only really tells.

In the books, he's haggard; thin, barely human-looking, with every injury by death having mangled his body on top of him feeling less like himself.

Now I'm in the camp that the books are put on pedestals, but are you just trying to be a 'bookfags, amirite' kinda guy?

For reference, this is what Book!Beric looks like according to some artists:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Beric_Dondarrion.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:BWB_Sir_Heartsalot.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Christopher_Ocampo_Lord_Beric.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Rafal_Hrynkiewicz_beric_dondarrion.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Ser_Beric_Dondarrion_TheMico.jpg

Not to mention, he at least talks about the void on the other side and seems emotionally affected: When a character talks about their affliction, it's not necessarily telling, as characters are unreliable narrators for the most part. What is shown, even if he tells it himself, is that dying is the kind of experience which haunts you should you come back.

Jon? He just shrugs it off, uses his authority as Lord Commander to execute some guys then conveniently remembers he's free of his vows so he can leave the Night's Watch to 'get warm'.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Well, in the show, yeah, he only really tells.

In the books, he's haggard; thin, barely human-looking, with every injury by death having mangled his body on top of him feeling less like himself.

Now I'm in the camp that the books are put on pedestals, but are you just trying to be a 'bookfags, amirite' kinda guy?

For reference, this is what Book!Beric looks like according to some artists:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Beric_Dondarrion.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:BWB_Sir_Heartsalot.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Christopher_Ocampo_Lord_Beric.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Rafal_Hrynkiewicz_beric_dondarrion.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Ser_Beric_Dondarrion_TheMico.jpg

Not to mention, he at least talks about the void on the other side and seems emotionally affected: When a character talks about their affliction, it's not necessarily telling, as characters are unreliable narrators for the most part. What is shown, even if he tells it himself, is that dying is the kind of experience which haunts you should you come back.

Jon? He just shrugs it off, uses his authority as Lord Commander to execute some guys then conveniently remembers he's free of his vows so he can leave the Night's Watch to 'get warm'.

What I think is that on the show there is not really a difference between the impact of resurection from Jon AND from Beric. 

Just by what is shown Beric does not appear any different other than his scars which Jon has as well. 

Jon seemed slighy more depressed in season 6 but he gets over it eventually. And Beric seems emotionally normal most of the time.

So i can’t say show Jon really seems that different than show Beric. 

In terms of what they talk about to me at least show Jon talking to Davos in 6x03, Mel in 6x09 and refusing to talk about his resurrection with Dany seems like the marks of someone who is haunted by the experience of coming back. That does not strike me as qualitatively any different from Beric talking about his experience on the show.

 

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

 Jon? He just shrugs it off, uses his authority as Lord Commander to execute some guys then conveniently remembers he's free of his vows so he can leave the Night's Watch to 'get warm'.

To be fair, I think the show has made a deliberate move to not delve too much into the effects of a resurrection on the person being resurrected. And if Jon is supposed to father children with Dany, it would've been a needless complication that they would need to eventually resolve. I think they were trying to keep things simple. I think it was right to not waste too much time with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/11/2017 at 5:37 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

According to GRRM's logic he stated in an interview, yes, Jon's a 'fire wight'.

Not that it's gonna stop D&D making him act completely like a living person and fuck Dany and have kids and live happily ever after 'cause he's ossummmmm.

TV only fans, get hype, I guess, Jon's finally metamorphosed into the boring Aragorn you've always wanted. Except even more boring.

 

On 23/11/2017 at 9:37 AM, The hairy bear said:

To be fair, Beric Dondarrion acted like a living person (at least at first sight) and that was after being brought back to live half a dozen times.

Yes, despite acting as a living person, he is still a living dead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/23/2017 at 3:37 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

According to GRRM's logic he stated in an interview, yes, Jon's a 'fire wight'.

Not that it's gonna stop D&D making him act completely like a living person and fuck Dany and have kids and live happily ever after 'cause he's ossummmmm.

TV only fans, get hype, I guess, Jon's finally metamorphosed into the boring Aragorn you've always wanted. Except even more boring.

Not really. Wight’s don’t think, Jon does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The show definitely went out of its way to show that Beric wasn't THAT affected from dying and coming back, I assume they did that for when they planned to resurrect Jon, or they were lazy.

But in the books Jon coming back is going to be a lot different and him as a person will be a lot different (I assume of course). As Beardy stated above, book Beric was a MESS. And Cat wasn't exactly normal either...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, btfu806 said:

The show definitely went out of its way to show that Beric wasn't THAT affected from dying and coming back, I assume they did that for when they planned to resurrect Jon, or they were lazy.

But in the books Jon coming back is going to be a lot different and him as a person will be a lot different (I assume of course). As Beardy stated above, book Beric was a MESS. And Cat wasn't exactly normal either...

Thats how i saw it. In the show it was more a traumatic experience but you were still you. You just had this big trauma you had to process. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even in the books Beric is still somewhat himself, at least compared to the ice wights. The loss of his personality is gradual. And LSH has personal motives from her real life for what she does. Ice wights don't.

There's another type of wight out there imo: the mountain. We don't know whether he's kept some of his personality or memories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zapho said:

Even in the books Beric is still somewhat himself, at least compared to the ice wights. The loss of his personality is gradual. And LSH has personal motives from her real life for what she does. Ice wights don't.

There's another type of wight out there imo: the mountain. We don't know whether he's kept some of his personality or memories.

He’s stronger. Pre-Qyburn Mountain used two hands to crush Oberyn’s skull. Now he just needs one. And he can rip a man’s head off.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Book logic and show logic are two separate entities.

According to George, Beric is supposed to be a walking corpse with no beating heart or flowing blood. In the show, Beric is clearly not that.

So extending this to Jon, I would say he's not intended to be a wight and I don't think his death will have any more significance than it has already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/27/2017 at 2:34 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Not really. Wight’s don’t think, Jon does.

Coldhands is a wight of some sort, yet is clearly quite sentient. I think ice magic and fire magic are capable of producing both revenants and traditional mindless zombies (albeit ones with some memories, as Chett remembers Sam as a wight and the wight taken into Castle Black knows where the Lord Commander's chambers are), but both zombies and revenants are clearly affected (Coldhands has blackened hands, glowing eyes, seems to be affected by the wall's magic, Beric remembers less and less of himself and eventually opts to die because of his husk-like nature), at least in the books.

But yeah, Ser Maverick brings up the correct point. Show-logic and book-logic are separate, and even if Beric is all like 'I feel less', it's ultimately a shallow gesture that exists only to bring Jon back so he can be awesome and hang mutineers before dropping his Night's Watch vows and beat Ramsay Bolton in bastardbowl because fuck Stannis and have awesome sex with Dany and do just about anything a fucking living person could do (with the added perk of conveniently breaking the vow that was a massive part of his character's pathos in the earlier seasons) because meaningful character death that isn't just for shock value is so last season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Coldhands is a wight of some sort, yet is clearly quite sentient. I think ice magic and fire magic are capable of producing both revenants and traditional mindless zombies (albeit ones with some memories, as Chett remembers Sam as a wight and the wight taken into Castle Black knows where the Lord Commander's chambers are), but both zombies and revenants are clearly affected (Coldhands has blackened hands, glowing eyes, seems to be affected by the wall's magic, Beric remembers less and less of himself and eventually opts to die because of his husk-like nature), at least in the books.

But yeah, Ser Maverick brings up the correct point. Show-logic and book-logic are separate, and even if Beric is all like 'I feel less', it's ultimately a shallow gesture that exists only to bring Jon back so he can be awesome and hang mutineers before dropping his Night's Watch vows and beat Ramsay Bolton in bastardbowl because fuck Stannis and have awesome sex with Dany and do just about anything a fucking living person could do (with the added perk of conveniently breaking the vow that was a massive part of his character's pathos in the earlier seasons) because meaningful character death that isn't just for shock value is so last season.

Agreed. Fuck Stannis ;-) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM interview was in the context of the TV show. He then speaks of Jon as if he was like Beric and Stoneheart. So far, AFAIK, GRRM never confirmed Jon was dead in the books or what would happen next. AFAIK he never revealed anything useful in advance of his books. Just that show and book are different things now. So, I keep the speculation of 'fire with' for the show.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/11/2017 at 0:00 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Coldhands is a wight of some sort, yet is clearly quite sentient. I think ice magic and fire magic are capable of producing both revenants and traditional mindless zombies

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

GRRM interview was in the context of the TV show. He then speaks of Jon as if he was like Beric and Stoneheart. So far, AFAIK, GRRM never confirmed Jon was dead in the books or what would happen next. AFAIK he never revealed anything useful in advance of his books. Just that show and book are different things now. So, I keep the speculation of 'fire with' for the show.

1

Indeed, and this is a fact that is easy to forget. We don't even know for certain whether Jon absolutely has died in the books or whether he might be saved somehow. It will probably require magic and Jon hanging out in Ghost for a bit but we don't know for certain whether Jon will actually physically die as he does in the show. I think we also need to think about anything GRRM says about the show with a pinch of salt. His internal logic or the logic of his books cannot always be allied to the show... unfortunately. -_-

In the books, I seem to recall there being a hint that even the "Ice Wights" i.e. the Other's wights still remember certain things, indicating that they aren't completely mindless despite being thrawls of the Others almost completely. Plus, it might be that other sorts of magic can create different types of wight. If we think of Small Paul as an "Ice Wight", Beric as a "Fire Wight", and perhaps Lady Stoneheart as a "Blood Wight" (as it took a human sacrifice to bring her back) and Patchface could be a "Drowned Wight" or "Water Wight"? With all that in mind, perhaps there is such as things as "Green Wights"/"Earth Wights" born out of the magic of Greenseers or the Children of the Forst. In the show, at least, it is implied Coldhands!Benjen could be this.

In other words, there could be countless magical methods to restore someone who is dying or has died, though the transformative nature of restoring a person to live once their soul has left their body is perhaps what determines how much agency and control they have as much as the type of magic that restores them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0