Eggegg

Men. Men. Men.

390 posts in this topic

Sorry to disappoint anyone hoping to find a topic about hot guys.

It seems men are getting a bit of a bad rap at the moment, getting lumped in with a bunch of rotten apples, so I thought it would be good to have a safe place to talk about Men's stuff where there is no judgement and a freedom to discuss topics concerning the state of manhood in the 21st century. 

There are a bunch of issues that often come up in these discussions like:

 

Male suicide rates:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/31/social-media-campaign-male-suicide

Gender gap in universities (why are men failing at school)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/06/schools-colleges-failing-boys-masculinity

Toxic masculinity
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/23/toxic-masculinity-men-privilege-emotions-rizzle-kicks

I think there are a bunch of topics that are worth discussing , I think the recent cases in the media have brought up a number of interesting issues, but I think that those discussions are closed off to us for now. I'd also say that this isn't some sort of Red Pill thread, its not about hating on women or feminism (though if you have genuine comments then I'd say that would be fine) 
 


 

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I feel like all the “creepers who shall not be discussed” are making the rest of us look bad! 

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1 minute ago, zelticgar said:

I feel like all the “creepers who shall not be discussed” are making the rest of us look bad! 

I kind of agree. I don't think its a very positive time for men in general, most news about the gender ends up being pretty negative and many problems are attributed towards masculinity itself as being the problem. This comes at a time when men are doing worse in school , less likely to get jobs and are often dropping out of society. I think its kind of a hidden problem that doesn't come up a lot, because the conversation gets twisted quite quickly.

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Just now, Eggegg said:

I kind of agree. I don't think its a very positive time for men in general, most news about the gender ends up being pretty negative and many problems are attributed towards masculinity itself as being the problem. This comes at a time when men are doing worse in school , less likely to get jobs and are often dropping out of society. I think its kind of a hidden problem that doesn't come up a lot, because the conversation gets twisted quite quickly.

No, not masculinity.  Toxic and fragile masculinity.  It's the sort of masculinity that tells boys they can't cry or share their feelings and leaves them with feeling there are too few ways to seek help when things go bad leading to high suicide rates and the like.

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

No, not masculinity.  Toxic and fragile masculinity.  It's the sort of masculinity that tells boys they can't cry or share their feelings and leaves them with feeling there are too few ways to seek help when things go bad leading to high suicide rates and the like.

Well I'd say certain forms of masculinity, traditional masculinity you could say is definitely frowned upon, where a more feminine masculinity (if you can call it that) is viewed as the more acceptable form. 

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14 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Well I'd say certain forms of masculinity, traditional masculinity you could say is definitely frowned upon, where a more feminine masculinity (if you can call it that) is viewed as the more acceptable form. 

I guess you're going to have to define these different types of masculinity for us, and/or provide examples.  

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There was a thread a few months ago on this very topic.  I think one of the biggest things people were unable to agree on what the definition of masculinity.  Oftentimes whittling it down to a single thing can contribute to the toxicity of it.

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29 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I guess you're going to have to define these different types of masculinity for us, and/or provide examples.  

My point was that traditional masculinity ( strength, stoicism, protection, competitiveness and aggression) is seen as a problem in many ways, and has to be replaced by a more feminine version ( caring, sharing, in touch with your feelings, emotive) because yes as you say, for some people this results in a form of toxic masculinity that is quite unhelpful and damaging. But that isn't everyone, and for many men, traditional masculinity is a very positive thing. 

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18 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

My point was that traditional masculinity ( strength, stoicism, protection, competitiveness and aggression) is seen as a problem in many ways, and has to be replaced by a more feminine version ( caring, sharing, in touch with your feelings, emotive) because yes as you say, for some people this results in a form of toxic masculinity that is quite unhelpful and damaging. But that isn't everyone, and for many men, traditional masculinity is a very positive thing. 

I must say that barring some extreme outliers, this board perhaps?, this just isn't true. Or maybe it is in some place I never heard of, but in Sweden, that I think is at least considered to be fairly progressive, feminine men are tolerated, but hardly lauded, besides perhaps in some minute part of the media. 

And even though the usual suspects will soon be down your throat about toxic masculinity and privilege etc, I think they are right. With the caveat that the traits that you listed as positive isn't the things critisized or damaging, so pitting them against "feminine" traits is really a red herring. Actually having the traits you listed will go a long way in any situation, whether you are a man or a woman.

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18 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

My point was that traditional masculinity ( strength, stoicism, protection, competitiveness and aggression) is seen as a problem in many ways, and has to be replaced by a more feminine version ( caring, sharing, in touch with your feelings, emotive) because yes as you say, for some people this results in a form of toxic masculinity that is quite unhelpful and damaging. But that isn't everyone, and for many men, traditional masculinity is a very positive thing. 

It's not that it needs to be replaced with something more feminine; it needs to be replaced with something less harmful to everyone. Most importantly, less harmful to themselves.

In a lot of ways I wish the term toxic masculinity was replaced with toxic machismo, because the problem is not that masculinity is toxic in some innate way, nor is it that men are toxic - it is that the traits associated with machismo are directly harmful to men

And note that masculinity is not something specifically genetic. It is largely a cultural value, and in this a lot of what is toxic is specifically toxic in the US. There are a lot of other cultures where masculinity is much less toxic in certain ways. My favorite example is Japan, where male children of any age think nothing of hugging and holding hands with their fathers and grandfathers in public. Think about how weird it would be for you to hold your father's hand walking in the park at your current age - that weirdness is entirely cultural. 

As to the above examples, no one is saying that protectiveness is harmful by itself. But when you turn protectiveness into not allowing others to have freedom, it becomes problematic. Being worried about your child is good; being worried about your child and dictating precisely who they can date, who their friends are, how they dress - that's bad. Strength isn't a bad thing either, but being unable to deal with anything except by being stronger is bad. Stoicism can be good, but it is also a massive source of that suicide/homicide/violent streak, as men have very few outlets to deal with things that are acceptable. Competitiveness is fine and good, but when you use the idea of winning being the only thing you get into really bad outcomes such as cheating and harming others, and you are incapable of seeing any kind of mutually beneficial outcomes, only outcomes where you either win or lose. 

And the real problem is not the creepers giving men a bad name. The real problem is this: how many of you, reading this now, have told a man off for being creepy? How about in the last year? Have you done it publicly in front of their friends? Have you done it when they're talking to you privately? Because as long as men don't suffer consequences for being creepy, they'll keep doing it - and those consequences largely start from other men telling them it sucks. That is on us, on you, on me, and if we want to stop being associated with the creeps we as men HAVE TO DO BETTER in telling men when it's wrong. Those creepers, when you don't tell them off - they think you are on their side. 

Don't be. 

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LET ME JUST PLAY DEVILS ADVOCATE HERE

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You know what would be great? If this thread was just taken over by women, taking up space, talking about things that statistically don't affect them in the same way they affect men, and treating the very real issues men face as an academic debate...wow...kinda sounds familiar really doesn't it. I wonder why that is. 

 

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So... A thread to try and convince people that "traditional masculinity" is not the problem.

Does anyone want popcorn?

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1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

My point was that traditional masculinity ( strength, stoicism, protection, competitiveness and aggression) is seen as a problem in many ways, and has to be replaced by a more feminine version ( caring, sharing, in touch with your feelings, emotive) because yes as you say, for some people this results in a form of toxic masculinity that is quite unhelpful and damaging. But that isn't everyone, and for many men, traditional masculinity is a very positive thing. 

How traditional are these values anyway, in what cultures, in what social strata? Because to some extent the division you make here is relatively recent, helped on by the traumas of the world wars and the pushing of women to child rearing alone in the single income families of the past decades.

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10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

So... A thread to try and convince people that "traditional masculinity" is not the problem.

Does anyone want popcorn?

Sure, sounds swell.

I'd not even argue that traditional masculinity is the problem. There's quite a number of them, many interlinked, but without a clear cause-effect relation. But it's certainly a considerable part of the problem.

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13 minutes ago, Seli said:

How traditional are these values anyway, in what cultures, in what social strata? Because to some extent the division you make here is relatively recent, helped on by the traumas of the world wars and the pushing of women to child rearing alone in the single income families of the past decades.

Exactly what I was about to say. How traditional can it be when the concept is only a few decades old?

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Yeah "traditional masculinity" changes quite a bit. I think a better description would be I dunno, traditional western masculinity? Which is bullshitvabd a problem. 

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