Men. Men. Men.

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You know what would be great? If this thread was just taken over by women, taking up space, talking about things that statistically don't affect them in the same way they affect men, and treating the very real issues men face as an academic debate...wow...kinda sounds familiar really doesn't it. I wonder why that is.

I made a thread like this a while ago, and it went a lot better than most people predicted, there were loads of good contributions from women. It's hard to discuss, say, the achievement gap in education without a female perspective. Even something like suicide rates... no gender is an island. Most male suicides are going to hit a mother, a partner, a sister, etc. You don't have to be a man for these issues to be very personal to you.

Anyways, I recently read "How Not To Be A Boy" by Robert Webb, a British comedic actor best known for Peep Show (if you aren't British and don't know this show, check it out, it's genius). It's basically an autobiography of his childhood and youth, with an emphasis on the problems with our idea of definition of masculinity, especially for a boy who doesn't fit it (he a shy child). Some of it hit home pretty hard, especially the inability to process difficult emotional stuff in a healthy way.

I do hope that we can have some more promotion of men's issues from moderate, even feminist people (Robert Webb is pretty feminist). I'd love to see him pushing for something. My old uni, Hull, introduced a men's officer (it already, like all unis, had a women's officer), but quickly got rid of it. I got to speak to a man who'd been involved in getting rid of it, he said it was because it was ridiculous as men aren't a vulnerable minority, it was like having a white's officer (there is also an ethnic minority officer). I asked if it wasn't possible men might want a man to speak to about personal issues, and that it was less about being a minority, but more about how men are more vulnerable to suicide, addiction, academic failure, etc. As a white man, I don't feel any real major problems that white people have. He gave me an "hmm", turned me out the conversation, and made it pretty clear to me that I was not welcome in university politics.

I don't agree with blaming feminists or a more feminine culture. Yes, there is some nasty feminist stuff out there, I have noticed the phrase "male tears" being used mockingly a lot, which is pretty much the exact problem that we face, that I would be hoping for feminist allies on. But really, most things I've seen promoting men's rights are actively anti-feminist. I don't see any reason why these main issues should be anti-feminist, I think we should be able to work with feminists, even be feminists.

[Darth Richard II]

Men can't be feminists, didn't you get the memo?

 

 

(that's a poke at Dunham there)

[Theda Baratheon]

The thing is I genuinely believe in men having their own spaces to discuss their issues. I believe there are lots of genuine issues men face - and it makes me sad that MRAs care more about bitching about feminists and women than talking about men. Or if they do talk about men it's against women. Like men and women are polar opposites or something. When we're not.

 

[mankytoes]

10 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Men can't be feminists, didn't you get the memo?

(that's a poke at Dunham there)

It's actually a pretty common view of feminists, many of the most prominent feminists have said that. People seem to think the current wave are particularly radical- they need to read some Dworkin or Greer.

I do remember our dear leader saying he was initially involved in feminism, but then was told he couldn't be involved because he was a man, so he said ok then, and backed off. It is funny how people miss the feminist themes in the books though, because some of them aren't subtle.

[mankytoes]

3 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

The thing is I genuinely believe in men having their own spaces to discuss their issues. I believe there are lots of genuine issues men face - and it makes me sad that MRAs care more about bitching about feminists and women than talking about men. Or if they do talk about men it's against women. Like men and women are polar opposites or something. When we're not.

 

Mainly in a few cases, but generally I'd rather women were involved, I'm not trying to prove a point by saying I want their contributions, because some women don't want ours. Whether it's nature or nurture, I do find women are often better to discuss heavy issues with, even "our" issues. As you say, we aren't opposites.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh I'm a giant Joss Whedon fanboy, I know all about the men cant be feminist bullcrap.

You know, I honestly thought the whole MRA movement was just a bad joke for a while tli i met one in the real world. It was also the first time someone called me a cuck.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Mainly in a few cases, but generally I'd rather women were involved, I'm not trying to prove a point by saying I want their contributions, because some women don't want ours. Whether it's nature or nurture, I do find women are often better to discuss heavy issues with, even "our" issues. As you say, we aren't opposites.

Yeah but a lot of men don't listen to women. And I really think it's about fucking  time that men emotionally support themselves and have a space to do that - it's all well and good saying women are better with emotional labour but men just don't listen and you know maybe it really isn't women and feminists place to tell men what to do and how to be - you lot have to do that yourselves - but I, and probably lots of women are more than happy to support that. I think it's mostly other men who would laugh at all male spaces and mock it. When that isn't fair. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I would never minimise problems that mostly effect men. It just isn't my place to sort them out; though I absolutely support men feeling able to discuss these things judgement free amongst themselves. 

[mankytoes]

19 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yeah but a lot of men don't listen to women. And I really think it's about fucking  time that men emotionally support themselves and have a space to do that - it's all well and good saying women are better with emotional labour but men just don't listen and you know maybe it really isn't women and feminists place to tell men what to do and how to be - you lot have to do that yourselves - but I, and probably lots of women are more than happy to support that. I think it's mostly other men who would laugh at all male spaces and mock it. When that isn't fair. 

Don't they? You're getting into cliches a bit in my opinion. I think the vast majority of men listen to women at least some of the time- their partners and mothers, at least.

You keep talking about everyone having their own space, based on demographic. To me this is like segregation. I don't want to be in a male space or a white space or a straight space. I love football, for example, which has traditionally been a white, straight male space. This has changed to an extent, which is great. I think this "my space, your space" attitude is regressive, not progressive.

I've never used the expression "emotional labour", I don't like it at all. Most women, and some men, I know, actively want me to open up more and discuss these things. This should be considered a part of friendship, not "labour", that's a horrible term in my opinion that makes people feel like a burden. If a friend comes to me with a problem I consider it a compliment that they want my help, not that they're forcing me into "labour".

I don't want you tell me "what to do and how to be", and I don't want men to tell me those things either. I want to figure them out for myself, and I think that we can help each other work these things out.

If I want to talk to all males, I'll just invite some male friends to do something. I definitely don't want some formal "all male spaces".

17 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I would never minimise problems that mostly effect men. It just isn't my place to sort them out; though I absolutely support men feeling able to discuss these things judgement free amongst themselves. 

So if one of your male friends told you they were having suicidal thoughts, you'd say "it just isn't my place to sort this out, go talk to a man"? I really don't understand your viewpoint here at all. Aren't we supposed to be moving past this gender splitting stuff?

I'm from a conservative area, and my parents went to a social event, and my mum came back outraged- all the men went in one room and the women went in another. I thought this was hilarious and so old fashioned, I commented I hadn't encountered this since primary school. Do you think we should encourage this?

[Theda Baratheon]

Are you genuinely asking me if I would callously shun a friend if they were suicidal...I think you're the one being unfair and misunderstanding. Jesus.

I believe male only spaces should be avaliable to the men that that would benefit but i said nowhere that there shouldnt be places for everyone to talk about anything or that if an individual man I knew was in trouble I wouldn't try to help...wtf...

..and I'm sorry but loads of men DON'T listen to women...that's like...a popular stereotype for a reason. 

[mankytoes]

3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Are you genuinely asking me if I would callously shun a friend if they were suicidal...I think you're the one being unfair and misunderstanding. Jesus.

I believe male only spaces should be avaliable to the men that that would benefit but i said nowhere that there shouldnt be places for everyone to talk about anything or that if an individual man I knew was in trouble I wouldn't try to help...wtf...

..and I'm sorry but loads of men DON'T listen to women...that's like...a popular stereotype for a reason. 

Well I don't understand your point, please give an example, what problem would you say it "isn't your place to sort out" if your male friend asked you about it? I bought up suicide, as that's an issue bought up in the OP. Addiction? That's something that disproportionately effects men. Paternity?

[BigFatCoward]

30 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Are you genuinely asking me if I would callously shun a friend if they were suicidal...I think you're the one being unfair and misunderstanding. Jesus.

I believe male only spaces should be avaliable to the men that that would benefit but i said nowhere that there shouldnt be places for everyone to talk about anything or that if an individual man I knew was in trouble I wouldn't try to help...wtf...

..and I'm sorry but loads of men DON'T listen to women...that's like...a popular stereotype for a reason. 

Something being a popular sterotype and something being true are not the same thing, though in this case it may well be.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah not that I disagree with the actual statement but saying something is stereotype for a reason is...bad form in any discussion.

[Kalbear]

That a whole lot of men had no idea that women were constantly being harassed, that they regularly were taught to not confront assaulters because they end up getting hurt worse, and that they were just doing this all the time kind of gives credence to the notion that men don't listen well. 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Well I don't understand your point, please give an example, what problem would you say it "isn't your place to sort out" if your male friend asked you about it? I bought up suicide, as that's an issue bought up in the OP. Addiction? That's something that disproportionately effects men. Paternity?

 

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah not that I disagree with the actual statement but saying something is stereotype for a reason is...bad form in any discussion.

 

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Something being a popular sterotype and something being true are not the same thing, though in this case it may well be.

OK that was clumsy of me to say I just know in the last week I've heard like 5 jokes from guys saying they're not listening to their gfs. 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

I don't know why I'm being so misunderstood here 

I don't want to segregate anyone all I said was that I don't see a problem with male only spaces not that I think think ht all spaces discussing mental health, paternity and other issues should ONLY HAVE MEN, just that there should be spaces made available for men who would find it comforting and helpful think hate discuss things with other men. 

I don't understand why that is so contentious and makes me sound so horrible 

[BigFatCoward]

16 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

OK that was clumsy of me to say I just know in the last week I've heard like 5 jokes from guys saying they're not listening to their gfs. 

 

Fair enough.

 

14 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don't understand why that is so contentious and makes me sound so horrible 

I don't think anyone does think that.

[Darth Richard II]

2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

OK that was clumsy of me to say I just know in the last week I've heard like 5 jokes from guys saying they're not listening to their gfs. 

 

Oh I agree, men dont listen for shit.

[Darth Richard II]

46 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don't know why I'm being so misunderstood here 

I don't want to segregate anyone all I said was that I don't see a problem with male only spaces not that I think think ht all spaces discussing mental health, paternity and other issues should ONLY HAVE MEN, just that there should be spaces made available for men who would find it comforting and helpful think hate discuss things with other men. 

I don't understand why that is so contentious and makes me sound so horrible 

It doesn't. DIdn't mean to even suggest it did..

[Eggegg]

13 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I made a thread like this a while ago, and it went a lot better than most people predicted, there were loads of good contributions from women. It's hard to discuss, say, the achievement gap in education without a female perspective. Even something like suicide rates... no gender is an island. Most male suicides are going to hit a mother, a partner, a sister, etc. You don't have to be a man for these issues to be very personal to you.

Anyways, I recently read "How Not To Be A Boy" by Robert Webb, a British comedic actor best known for Peep Show (if you aren't British and don't know this show, check it out, it's genius). It's basically an autobiography of his childhood and youth, with an emphasis on the problems with our idea of definition of masculinity, especially for a boy who doesn't fit it (he a shy child). Some of it hit home pretty hard, especially the inability to process difficult emotional stuff in a healthy way.

I do hope that we can have some more promotion of men's issues from moderate, even feminist people (Robert Webb is pretty feminist). I'd love to see him pushing for something. My old uni, Hull, introduced a men's officer (it already, like all unis, had a women's officer), but quickly got rid of it. I got to speak to a man who'd been involved in getting rid of it, he said it was because it was ridiculous as men aren't a vulnerable minority, it was like having a white's officer (there is also an ethnic minority officer). I asked if it wasn't possible men might want a man to speak to about personal issues, and that it was less about being a minority, but more about how men are more vulnerable to suicide, addiction, academic failure, etc. As a white man, I don't feel any real major problems that white people have. He gave me an "hmm", turned me out the conversation, and made it pretty clear to me that I was not welcome in university politics.

I don't agree with blaming feminists or a more feminine culture. Yes, there is some nasty feminist stuff out there, I have noticed the phrase "male tears" being used mockingly a lot, which is pretty much the exact problem that we face, that I would be hoping for feminist allies on. But really, most things I've seen promoting men's rights are actively anti-feminist. I don't see any reason why these main issues should be anti-feminist, I think we should be able to work with feminists, even be feminists.

I have been meaning to read Robert Webb's book, its been getting very good reviews and I think he's brilliant in almost everything, so i'd have a lot of time for him.

 I totally understand where he is coming from, having also been a shy kid who probably wasn't great at sports and lacked confidence, and liked singing and drawing. I also went through a number of tough times as a kid and had to deal with them in my own way. My dad often marvels that I'm not totally messed up and that I'm pretty successful compared to most in my family. But I guess my main takeaway is that there isn't a one size fits all solution to the problems men face. Personally I wish my parents hadn't been so soft on me, what I really needed was structure and discipline and positive male role models, it wasn't about having more people to talk about my problems with, but having something to aspire to and a way to navigate the world. I wish someone had toughened me up in fact. Once I'd hit my 20s I got into martial arts and weightlifting and my life changed, I got the discipline and the self esteem that was lacking when I was younger. 

I think upthread @Kalbear said some really good things that I totally go along with about toxic masculinity, there are upsides and downsides to certain elements of it. Machismo is a good term to use, but I think it relates really to the need to fit in and is a side effect of lack of self esteem more than anything. Again I think the solution to that is sometimes more structure and better role models, which I think there is a real lack of in todays society. 
 

 

9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh I agree, men dont listen for shit.

I disagree, and I find comments like this a bit distasteful.