Men. Men. Men.

[Alarich II]

In theory, I have my male safe space, where it's men only and where I get all the support I need. It's in the shed in our backyard where I also keep all my tools. However, it's constantly invaded by my wife and lately also by my 3 year old daughter who has developed a penchant for drilling holes into the nuts of our buckeye tree.

[Gorn]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That a whole lot of men had no idea that women were constantly being harassed, that they regularly were taught to not confront assaulters because they end up getting hurt worse, and that they were just doing this all the time kind of gives credence to the notion that men don't listen well. 

But this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If women don't discuss women's problems with men (because they won't listen) and instead only discuss them with other women, then men who don't go out of their way to educate themselves on these issues will be genuinely unaware of them. "Men-only" or "women-only" spaces are unhealthy to society as a whole.

[Eggegg]

4 minutes ago, Gorn said:

But this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If women don't discuss women's problems with men (because they won't listen) and instead only discuss them with other women, then men who don't go out of their way to educate themselves on these issues will be genuinely unaware of them. "Men-only" or "women-only" spaces are unhealthy to society as a whole.

I'm not sure who is advocating for men or women only spaces for discussion, but I'd be against it on principal. As you say, awareness of each others issues is always useful.

I would also be very careful of saying any issue is the fault of men or women. Any time you blame one gender or group for anything you are going to get poor reactions from them and often the opposite effect that you would want to achieve. 

[Lily Valley]

19 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You know what would be great? If this thread was just taken over by women, taking up space, talking about things that statistically don't affect them in the same way they affect men, and treating the very real issues men face as an academic debate...wow...kinda sounds familiar really doesn't it. I wonder why that is. 

 

Glad somebody said it.

16 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh I'm a giant Joss Whedon fanboy, I know all about the men cant be feminist bullcrap.

You know, I honestly thought the whole MRA movement was just a bad joke for a while tli i met one in the real world. It was also the first time someone called me a cuck.

Godspeed my friend.  Nobody with opinions (wrong ones about Literature) as strong as yours can be cowed by idiotic insults.  

Thank you both for picking up this Boulder and pushing it uphill.

Theda, I love you SO SO SO MUCH.  

That is all.  Carry on, men.  I genuinely hope this conversation goes well.  

[Eggegg]

1 minute ago, Lily Valley said:

Glad somebody said it.

Godspeed my friend.  Nobody with opinions (wrong ones about Literature) as strong as yours can be cowed by idiotic insults.  

Thank you both for picking up this Boulder and pushing it uphill.

Theda, I love you SO SO SO MUCH.  

That is all.  Carry on, men.  I genuinely hope this conversation goes well.  

ok thanks.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Alarich II said:

In theory, I have my male safe space, where it's men only and where I get all the support I need. It's in the shed in our backyard where I also keep all my tools. However, it's constantly invaded by my wife and lately also by my 3 year old daughter who has developed a penchant for drilling holes into the nuts of our buckeye tree.

What you need is a "no girls allowed" sign.
 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rsG7D2U-U4/T7kRB0Lp_AI/AAAAAAAAAJc/JA_cgChdBc8/s640/sexism.gif

[Toth]

18 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don't know why I'm being so misunderstood here 

I don't want to segregate anyone all I said was that I don't see a problem with male only spaces not that I think think ht all spaces discussing mental health, paternity and other issues should ONLY HAVE MEN, just that there should be spaces made available for men who would find it comforting and helpful think hate discuss things with other men. 

I don't understand why that is so contentious and makes me sound so horrible 

I got what you were trying to say, though I assume it was both the word 'space' that was misleading and your understandibly frustrated observation of men saying they aren't listening to women that was only tangetially related to your argument. Your first point was that in the current cultural climate (and I assume the difference between Germany and the US in this regard isn't so large as to affect my understanding of it), men simply do not dare to talk about sensitive issues with other men, was it not? And your second was that, not having the option to turn to female friends (because we are tought that men and women can't be friends after all...), they instead have to turn to their girlfriends, making them the sole confidant in regards to all of their emotional baggage. And of course this is problematic, it either puts that one person under a lot of pressure to give the right advice or if the man in question doesn't have a partner, they are forced to just 'suck it up'.

Though I'd say that you shouldn't believe those people saying that they don't listen to their girlfriend. I am fairly sure that they are just saying shit like this to keep up their 'tough guy image'. Which is the entire reason why things are fucked up as they are.

Let's just look at the Average Joe I remember from my peer groups back in school or whenever I watch groups of boys or men sitting together somewhere. It's already clear that they can't have female friends, so their male peers are the ones they hang out with in their free time. From what I have experienced myself or witnessed, these groups all have in common that their conversations and actions revolve around having fun, having to entertain each other. Men are encouraged to keep up this act of being impeccable and daring in each other's company. Every sign of weakness is just an invitation for the others to seek their entertainment in mocking you instead. So you just don't. And avoid conversations about personal problems like hell, you just have to laugh it off and keep up the tough guy act. That's the single reason why men don't have that space to confide in other men and why we really need to hammer home into young boys that there is no problem in showing weakness and that we all need to stand up against those who make a mockery out of those who do, instead of joining in on the 'fun' as I have experienced countless times.

Fine, I may be a burned child in more ways than one, so I might have exaggerated this, but I am sure to a certain degree every man has to put up with this kind of group mentality when dealing with other men, even if their peer group doesn't devolve into a bunch of bullies. I have just noticed that, at least for someone like me who is sick of keeping up such a 'tough guy act' and prefers to just be himself, it is far easier to get along with women than with men. Because I just... don't need to behave in any way that would be against my nature and don't have to fear any repercussions for doing so. In an ideal world however, this shouldn't even be an issue, we should be able to be ourselves when hanging out with people we call friends and we should be able to trust them with personal issues, regardless of their gender.

[Theda Baratheon]

12 minutes ago, Toth said:

I got what you were trying to say, though I assume it was both the word 'space' that was misleading and your understandibly frustrated observation of men saying they aren't listening to women that was only tangetially related to your argument. Your first point was that in the current cultural climate (and I assume the difference between Germany and the US in this regard isn't so large as to affect my understanding of it), men simply do not dare to talk about sensitive issues with other men, was it not? And your second was that, not having the option to turn to female friends (because we are tought that men and women can't be friends after all...), they instead have to turn to their girlfriends, making them the sole confidant in regards to all of their emotional baggage. And of course this is problematic, it either puts that one person under a lot of pressure to give the right advice or if the man in question doesn't have a partner, they are forced to just 'suck it up'.

Though I'd say that you shouldn't believe those people saying that they don't listen to their girlfriend. I am fairly sure that they are just saying shit like this to keep up their 'tough guy image'. Which is the entire reason why things are fucked up as they are.

Let's just look at the Average Joe I remember from my peer groups back in school or whenever I watch groups of boys or men sitting together somewhere. It's already clear that they can't have female friends, so their male peers are the ones they hang out with in their free time. From what I have experienced myself or witnessed, these groups all have in common that their conversations and actions revolve around having fun, having to entertain each other. Men are encouraged to keep up this act of being impeccable and daring in each other's company. Every sign of weakness is just an invitation for the others to seek their entertainment in mocking you instead. So you just don't. And avoid conversations about personal problems like hell, you just have to laugh it off and keep up the tough guy act. That's the single reason why men don't have that space to confide in other men and why we really need to hammer home into young boys that there is no problem in showing weakness and that we all need to stand up against those who make a mockery out of those who do, instead of joining in on the 'fun' as I have experienced countless times.

Fine, I may be a burned child in more ways than one, so I might have exaggerated this, but I am sure to a certain degree every man has to put up with this kind of group mentality when dealing with other men, even if their peer group doesn't devolve into a bunch of bullies. I have just noticed that, at least for someone like me who is sick of keeping up such a 'tough guy act' and prefers to just be himself, it is far easier to get along with women than with men. Because I just... don't need to behave in any way that would be against my nature and don't have to fear any repercussions for doing so. In an ideal world however, this shouldn't even be an issue, we should be able to be ourselves when hanging out with people we call friends and we should be able to trust them with personal issues, regardless of their gender.

Yes thank you that''s exactly what I was trying to say. And that I sympathise with the rest of your post - that men often have to maintain a facade of machismo and being a tough guy and just being "one of the lads".

I didn't mean to come across as say dimissive of men; I across actully really sympathise with many young boys and men who feel left out because they arent super machismo (probably a much better word than masculine as toxic masculinity can be misleading and sound like an attack on men...when it isnt) 

Men absolutely don' seem to talk about sensitive issues with each other and it' not out of hatred and contempt for men that I don' want to talk to them but I also think it would be mentally and emotionally healthy for men to be able to talk about certain sensitive topics amongst themselves - and fear no judgement. 

If they have problems with aggression for example and earnestly want to work on it I think other men (who are genuinely sympathetic and not mocking) would be a better outlet for understanding and help.

I am a bit (a lot sleep deprived) and angry/frustrated with this board atm but I honestly care about the men in my life and I question how much help I can offer sometimes with things I don't really understand. 

I don' want to segregate men and women and frankly I think that was v unfair of mankytoes to claim - I just want men to be able to talk about sensitive issues that affect them more and yes - women absolutely might be better at talki g about sensitive issues and empathy but I wish we could get to a point where men as a collective are good at this too and it has to start sometime 

[The guy from the Vale]

@Toth From one German nerd uncomfortable with the tough guy act to another: A-fucking-men. I'm also sick and tired of this stoic tough guy act that many assume of me. Trying to adhere to that made me miserable, depressed and ultimately made me lose out on about five yours of my life trying to be something I'm not. I've also found the friendship of women better for my mental health simply because I can actually talk about my insecurities with them without being mocked. 

[Kalbear]

9 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I think upthread @Kalbear said some really good things that I totally go along with about toxic masculinity, there are upsides and downsides to certain elements of it. Machismo is a good term to use, but I think it relates really to the need to fit in and is a side effect of lack of self esteem more than anything. Again I think the solution to that is sometimes more structure and better role models, which I think there is a real lack of in todays society. 

I think sometimes it's boys not having good role models - but it's also men assuming what the behavior is supposed to be like in order to fit in. There's a reason that PUA groups end up being less about the women they're banging and more about the group - because they're doing something that has been told to them is socially 'good' (banging hot women) in order to fit into a group, and the fitting in is the part that they're lacking.

But the banging hot women and treating them like dirt thing isn't intrinsic to masculinity any more than catamites were in Rome. 

I think that men lack role models that are not toxic. They are told that in order to be men, they have to lack emotion, they have to treat women badly, they have to score lots of women, they have to be angry and show strength and not back down from fights. That isn't what manliness was like forever, and in fact it was not what manliness was like until the era of Playboy. But that's what they're told they need to do in order to be 'men'. 

And this isn't exclusive to men as far as toxic gender roles; women have a whole lot of toxicity in their gender roles as well in the West. The difference happens to be that toxic machismo is causing men to harm themselves and others at a far higher rate, so we should go after this first.

9 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I disagree, and I find comments like this a bit distasteful.

 

I love that bit so much. 

[Kalbear]

5 hours ago, Gorn said:

But this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If women don't discuss women's problems with men (because they won't listen) and instead only discuss them with other women, then men who don't go out of their way to educate themselves on these issues will be genuinely unaware of them. "Men-only" or "women-only" spaces are unhealthy to society as a whole.

It really doesn't, because there are an absurd amount of people out there willing to talk. This isn't secret stuff. This isn't particularly even new. If you want to find the information it is incredibly fast to find. 

This isn't about men-only or women-only spaces; this is about men genuinely giving a shit about other things than themselves.

Also, gender-specific spaces are important. They are not remotely unhealthy. It is important to be able to interact with others who experience and empathize with the world in a similar way that you do, and can understand more intrinsically what you're going through. People should not be confined to these spaces, but they serve a major important part of being human. They are universal throughout cultures. What form they take, what is discussed, what the issues are - these all differ - but having rites of passage for manhood/womanhood and having a gendered space is important. 

[Theda Baratheon]

10 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

@Toth From one German nerd uncomfortable with the tough guy act to another: A-fucking-men. I'm also sick and tired of this stoic tough guy act that many assume of me. Trying to adhere to that made me miserable, depressed and ultimately made me lose out on about five yours of my life trying to be something I'm not. I've also found the friendship of women better for my mental health simply because I can actually talk about my insecurities with them without being mocked. 

And this is what makes me sad. I have friends like this too. And I absolutely do love and support them and just wish we lived in a world where certain men didn' have to feel this out of place 

But also my best friends bf is the biggest bravado tough guy act type of bloke I've met in ages and whilst I actually get along with him really well because he' hilarious he genuinely says some of the most ridiculous things constantly and my friend says he is absolutely emotionally stunted. He calls basically every other man he meets a scrote, feels insecure a lot and doesn' seem to really have many genuinely close friendships and that's sad. He doesn' have anyone but my best friend that he can talk to and emotionally rely on and whilst her supporting him isnt a bad thing when she is the only source of that emotional support it isn't great because she has her own things to deal with. But he absolutely would NEVER, EVER be vulnerable with another man. He jut wouldn't do it. And it' to his own detriment really

[Kalbear]

Typically in western cultures men are not allowed to be emotional with other men except when drinking a lot. 

That, right there, should be the big exhibit A when the term 'toxic masculinity' is used. When the only way to express your emotions is to poison yourself to the point of blackouts so that you can reasonably claim that it wasn't 'you' that said it, that is a problem. 

[The guy from the Vale]

@Theda Baratheon Sure, I'd prefer for there to be spaces where I can actually talk to other men about such issues, too. With some of them, I can - probably not so coincidentally, most of them are gay. But many more men are stuck in some kind of perpetual hamster wheel of social hierarchy where you can only succeed by exploiting your fellow man's weaknesses. I hate that competition with the passion of a thousand suns.

We certainly need better role models for men, and even more importantly, we absolutely need to reassess our cultural values that judge men not by their moral value but their career, quantity (not quality) of sex life, and stoicism. It hurts all of us, the men who have those opinions as well as those like me who disagree, and also the women and even children around us.

[Rippounet]

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Typically in western cultures men are not allowed to be emotional with other men except when drinking a lot.

Ouch. That's hitting the nail on its head hard as far as I'm concerned.
All my best friends originally were drinking buddies for that very reason. Alcohol unabled us to be much more honest with each other than we would ever be when sober. It didn't completely get rid of the "tough-guy" act, but it certainly brought it down a notch (turning it into a game of sorts) and allowed us to deal with a great number of difficult moments in our lives (like a friend losing his father, breakups... ).
Thankfully, now that we're all in our thirties (many of us with kids), we don't have to be drunk to express our emotions. But it's literally taken a decade to get to that level of trust. And we still really relax together once a bottle or two has been downed.
The downside of this is that I find it extremely difficult to trust guys I haven't had drinks with ; I just can't be friends with people who don't drink. In fact, generally speaking, according to my GF, I tend to keep my guard up when sober and become much more congenial after a couple of drinks.
Of course, all this is considered perfectly normal in France, where drinking has a very positive image. You drink wine with your in-laws at family meals, you drink beer after work with colleagues, you drink whisky with your friends... etc. Everyone simply accepts that you really get to know and trust people after a few drinks. And the funny thing is, as far as I'm aware, this is not a cultural specificity. You have comparable drinking cultures throughout the West, as well as Asia. I've had comparable experiences with British, German and American colleagues at least.

[Alarich II]

27 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Men absolutely don' seem to talk about sensitive issues with each other and it' not out of hatred and contempt for men that I don' want to talk to them but I also think it would be mentally and emotionally healthy for men to be able to talk about certain sensitive topics amongst themselves - and fear no judgement. 

The thing is, men don't talk about sensitive issues with others, regardless of sex or gender. And I find that in general, when they do, they tend talk to their girlfriends, wives, lovers, mothers, sisters, i.e. the women in their lives. So while I respect that many women might want to have that special safe space where they can discuss their womanly things without male interference, I don't think that this really works for us in the same way it does for women, simply because the group dynamics are different for us than for women.

Now, to me, gender-specific experiences are only a part of my identity, there's also class, race, nationality, religion/faith, language, family etc. So I don't really feel that for me this the great dividing line when I interact with other people. I've had many instances where I had great and meaningful conversations with women, because we had a sort of common basic set of cultural priors and on the other hand I've met so many men where I have nothing in common except the fact that they also are men.

And in that I am probably a lot more classist than sexist: my biases both conscious and unconscious are much more about socio-economic selection and education than gender. And spending 10 months as a conscript in the army probably didn't help. Not that one is better than the other, but when it comes to discussing sensitive topics, I always felt more at ease with people from a similar background rather than the same sex.

[Eggegg]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I think sometimes it's boys not having good role models - but it's also men assuming what the behavior is supposed to be like in order to fit in. There's a reason that PUA groups end up being less about the women they're banging and more about the group - because they're doing something that has been told to them is socially 'good' (banging hot women) in order to fit into a group, and the fitting in is the part that they're lacking.

But the banging hot women and treating them like dirt thing isn't intrinsic to masculinity any more than catamites were in Rome. 

I think that men lack role models that are not toxic. They are told that in order to be men, they have to lack emotion, they have to treat women badly, they have to score lots of women, they have to be angry and show strength and not back down from fights. That isn't what manliness was like forever, and in fact it was not what manliness was like until the era of Playboy. But that's what they're told they need to do in order to be 'men'. 

And this isn't exclusive to men as far as toxic gender roles; women have a whole lot of toxicity in their gender roles as well in the West. The difference happens to be that toxic machismo is causing men to harm themselves and others at a far higher rate, so we should go after this first.

I love that bit so much. 

While I tend to agree with elements of that; I mean guys tend to enjoy the male bonding of going out on the pull just as much as the talking to hot women, I do feel like there is another side to the story.

Like, as a guy , I do like to go out and bang lots of hot chicks, because I like hot chicks and sex and wasn’t interested in any level of relationship. I’m far from alone in that either, and it has little to do with cultural values and more to do with my balls.

i also highly enjoy the bravado of male companionship , the vulgar jokes, the insults and the competitiveness. I don’t feel the need to share. And it’s not really ever been much of a problem. 

From the outside, if you don’t fit into that it can seem awful and like it’s a real problem, but i feel very comfortable with it and enjoy those elements. If men didn’t enjoy it they wouldn’t be doing it. So it’s not entirely a trap that needs to be changed .Sure there are elements that can be improved, some guys want to be able to discuss issues and stuff, and some guys don’t. And that’s ok.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 11/23/2017 at 11:18 AM, Dr. Pepper said:

No, not masculinity.  Toxic and fragile masculinity.  It's the sort of masculinity that tells boys they can't cry or share their feelings and leaves them with feeling there are too few ways to seek help when things go bad leading to high suicide rates and the like.

I've had friends (male obviously) who quit being my friend because I started taking anti-depressants, for example. Or they things about me taking Concerta for ADHD. I mean, I got through most of my life depressed and lethargic (ADD really) and unable to hear more than 40 percent of what people were saying to me. I got through the army, through a deployment, through a broken marriage, helped my son through Leukemia, through an undergrad degree, and I was a pretty good teacher, I think. But honestly, when I started taking meds, it was my guy friends who thought it was weak. I decided to let them go and put my health ahead, and on top of that, advocate for healthy solutions. Some of us need meds, some of us need therapy, but a lot of the toxicity does come to needing an intervention because you aren't handling things on your own.

I think about the solutions to meds I often hear: "work out" (be stronger), "exercise" (work out), "hang out with the guys more," (yeah...), or Chris Kyle's method of taking men to the shooting range so they could shoot out their frustrations. The undercurrent here seems to be not that meds are bad, but that a man who takes them only takes them because he doesn't do enough manly stuff.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 11/23/2017 at 0:51 PM, Kalbear said:

 

In a lot of ways I wish the term toxic masculinity was replaced with toxic machismo, because the problem is not that masculinity is toxic in some innate way, nor is it that men are toxic - it is that the traits associated with machismo are directly harmful to men. 

 

Your whole post was good, but I really like this.

[Toth]

20 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Ouch. That's hitting the nail on its head hard as far as I'm concerned.

You'd hate my company then, since I can't stand alcohol. XD

So it seems I have to agree with Kalbear. We need a society in which men are allowed to comfortably express their worries without getting wasted beforehand.

46 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

@Theda Baratheon Sure, I'd prefer for there to be spaces where I can actually talk to other men about such issues, too. With some of them, I can - probably not so coincidentally, most of them are gay.

... or just other nerds, of the well-adjusted kind. There are guys I get along with at college where I don't feel that they expect me to put up a tough guy act. I'd still not confide in them because I trust nobody on principle, but that's an unrelated issue, I'm just saying that people who share my own outlook on coexistence do exist (and don't need to be gay, not all of them that is).

46 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

But many more men are stuck in some kind of perpetual hamster wheel of social hierarchy where you can only succeed by exploiting your fellow man's weaknesses. I hate that competition with the passion of a thousand suns.

Oh yes!

A lot of my former classmates were nerds as well, but kept buying into that tough guy bullshit. I remember my last High School years, in which I was starting to salvage my social outcast status a bit and re-joined a few former friends who had started to meet up to play board games. Of the highly-competitive kind that is. During games of Diplomacy I was able to witness a microcosm of that toxic tough guy act and how it was exploited by a very manipulative host... and felt like Ned Stark entering the King's Landing Court, thinking "Why the fuck are we have to constantly backstab each other like this? Is this supposed to be fun? Especially when this Littlefinger-wannabe always wins!"

46 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

We certainly need better role models for men, and even more importantly, we absolutely need to reassess our cultural values that judge men not by their moral value but their career, quantity (not quality) of sex life, and stoicism. It hurts all of us, the men who have those opinions as well as those like me who disagree, and also the women and even children around us.

Absolutely agreed. I'm thinking we need more emphasize on awesomeness of cooperation and mutual support, not only when it comes to work (even though there aggressively competetive atmosphere is also rampant), but when it comes to emotional support as well.