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Men. Men. Men.


Eggegg

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16 hours ago, Liffguard said:

This got me wondering, is toxic masculinity composed of inherently toxic traits, or is it taking traits that are healthy in moderation to an unhealthy extreme? At another point in the book Webb talks about how he struggled to reconcile that it's possible to be strong and active without being domineering and aggressive, or that you can be kind and well-mannered without being docile.

Ultimately, one of Webb's main points (so far as I am in the book) is the conceptions of masculinity and femininity aren't particularly useful, and that trying to redefine masculinity into a more healthy form is still just perpetuating an idea that men are expected to act a certain way. Positive personality traits stand as positive on their own merits regardless of the genitals (or personal identity) of those who exhibit them, and the same is true for negative traits.

 

I think everyone should have the freedom to behave and be who they want to be, and giving kids the choice and not forcing them into distinct roles is definitely a good idea. They should all be encouraged to excel in what they want and shouldn't be discriminated against if they don't really seem to fit into a tightly defined label. 

At the same time I don't believe in treating everyone in the exact same way, and I'd say that boys and girls in general would probably be attracted to certain behaviours and activities purely due to their sex. The nature vs nurture debate doesn't fall down 100% on either side and opinions change on it every year, but nature plays some part. 

I think encouraging everyone to have those positive personality traits is a good idea, and some sort of structure is useful too, boys in particular I think need that element of structure early on.

1 hour ago, Gorn said:

This wasn't directed to me, but there is a simple answer to this question: testosterone.

I was never able to experience the "women's side", but a lot of transsexual people have actually experienced this difference. And the stories from people transitioning from women to men report a significant increase of sexual desire simultaneous with testosterone injections. Similar experience has been reported with men who started using testosterone boosters.

Here is a good link to listen to about this subject: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testosterone?act=2#play

I think there are plenty of studies that show a link to testosterone and sex drive, although the relationship is complex and not always totally direct. Certainly having low levels of testosterone in men can cause a loss of libido, but it has a number of other negative effects on the body too. There are a number of studies that suggest Testosterone in men has dropped over the generations, I'm not sure how much I can take from those studies however.

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5 hours ago, litechick said:

Kalbear, I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to paraphrase my argument.  You didn't understand my argument, you cannot restate it with accuracy.

I quoted your argument. @litechick If you don't want me to quote your argument, don't make the argument as quoted. You're the one who mentioned Louis CK as an example of the male sex drive. You're the one who asked whether or not women could even understand the male sex drive based on your anecdote. 

If that wasn't your argument, you didn't do it well. I suspect it was your argument and you don't like being called on the mat for making obviously poor statements which are easily refuted with many, many studies.

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10 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Kal, your argument is based on a falsehood, he did nothing illegal. Look it up. What is illegal is "indecent exposure"- but you have to be deliberately trying to shock others. Obviously it'll be against office rules, but that's very different.

Simply having porn on his work computer is probably not illegal. Using work resources to masturbate in a public location almost certainly is against the law if provable in some way, especially if he knows he has any STDs. In the US that would fall under criminal negligence. 

Not that being against the law is really the point; the point is that he was either willing to risk quite a bit to indulge in this, knowing it was very much against the rules and norms, and had to do it - or he risked basically nothing because he knew he would get away with it due to his station and power. Neither are good things. Both are examples of fairly heavy deviancy, even if 'looking at porn' is not. 

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Well I read the first post. Then I clicked through the last few pages and now you're discussing jacking off at work? I'm going to have to go against the flow here and go back to something in the first post - it got me interested in checking out the differences between male and female suicide rates in my country. Holy fuck the difference in the amount is enormous across all age groups. I'm guessing there's research into the reasons. Does anyone have anything legit at hand they could point me to?

I knew there was a difference, but I had always assumed it would be say 20 deaths per 100 000 people for men versus like 15 for women. But it's more like 24 vs 6. That's huge.

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24 minutes ago, akh said:

Well I read the first post. Then I clicked through the last few pages and now you're discussing jacking off at work? I'm going to have to go against the flow here and go back to something in the first post - it got me interested in checking out the differences between male and female suicide rates in my country. Holy fuck the difference in the amount is enormous across all age groups. I'm guessing there's research into the reasons. Does anyone have anything legit at hand they could point me to?

I knew there was a difference, but I had always assumed it would be say 20 deaths per 100 000 people for men versus like 15 for women. But it's more like 24 vs 6. That's huge.

One study I read (cannot find at the moment) suggested that men are more successful.  That the rates of attempt are about even, but men are FAR more likely to use a firearm vs. blade or medication and therefore more likely to be successful.

As to the rest of this thread, it never occurred to me to wonder what men talked about when women aren't around.  Really glad I've given that line of inquiry as little of my time as I have.  :stillsick:

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8 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

One study I read (cannot find at the moment) suggested that men are more successful.  That the rates of attempt are about even, but men are FAR more likely to use a firearm vs. blade or medication and therefore more likely to be successful.

As to the rest of this thread, it never occurred to me to wonder what men talked about when women aren't around.  Really glad I've given that line of inquiry as little of my time as I have.  :stillsick:

Yes what I read suggested that women are more likely to use the attempt as a cry for help.

One theory is that there is a strong correlation between male suicide rates and the individualistic nature of the society in which they live:

"In 2003, a group of sociologists examined the gender and suicide gap by considering how cultural factors impacted suicide rates. The four cultural factors; power-difference, individualism, uncertainty avoidance, and masculinity, were measured for 66 countries using data from the World Health Organization.[Cultural beliefs regarding individualism were most closely tied to the gender gap; countries that placed a higher value on individualism showed higher rates of male suicide. Power-difference, defined as the social separation of people based on finances or status, was negatively correlated with suicide. However, countries with high levels of power-difference had higher rates of female suicide.The study ultimately found that stabilizing cultural factors had a stronger effect on suicide rates for women than men."

I guess there might something in that, you could say that in a society where men are really lacking any sort of purpose and direction, and have little meaning in their lives, its hard to see what there is to live for. Previously they might have stayed alive due to responsibilities to others, but if they don't have those then maybe the decision is easier for them

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20 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I guess there might something in that, you could say that in a society where men are really lacking any sort of purpose and direction, and have little meaning in their lives, its hard to see what there is to live for. Previously they might have stayed alive due to responsibilities to others, but if they don't have those then maybe the decision is easier for them

What society is this now?

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25 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I guess there might something in that, you could say that in a society where men are really lacking any sort of purpose and direction, and have little meaning in their lives, its hard to see what there is to live for. Previously they might have stayed alive due to responsibilities to others, but if they don't have those then maybe the decision is easier for them

Just now, Eggegg said:

Western individualistic societies

When? Where? At what point did suddenly men America, Britain, Canada, etc. lose purpose, direction, and meaning in their lives? You seem to be making the argument that men require women to marry them and stay at home in order to have responsibilities that, in turn, give meaning to their lives. Is this what you are saying?

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6 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Trump country.

I thought that bigotry, misogyny, and xenophobia was sufficient raison d'etre for deplorables in Trump country.

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That'd be more reasonable as a supposition if the highest suicide rates in the developed world weren't in places like Japan and South Korea, and are not remotely tied to individualism. 

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I don't want to derail the suicide discussion, because it's really fascinating, especially how people kill themselves more in richer countries. If you know Japanese history, it's no mystery as to why they kill themselves more, it's traditionally seen as honourable. It's hard not to enjoy awesome samurai stories which end "he then wrote his death poem and committed seppuku". Maybe that has influenced Korea as well?

But- http://time.com/5049671/terry-crews-interview-transcript-person-of-the-year-2017/

So much love for Terry Crews. I hope every man who has faced sexual harrassment or assault, and feels it has hurt their masculinity, feels boosted by this.

And I hope we all feel we have the understanding and the strength to stand up for women, and to stand up for ourselves.

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35 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I don't want to derail the suicide discussion, because it's really fascinating, especially how people kill themselves more in richer countries. If you know Japanese history, it's no mystery as to why they kill themselves more, it's traditionally seen as honourable. It's hard not to enjoy awesome samurai stories which end "he then wrote his death poem and committed seppuku". Maybe that has influenced Korea as well?

Just because the U.S. culture sanctifies gun ownership it doesn't follow that we glorify murder, too. That's essentially what you're doing with the sepukku inference. 

First of all, in seppuku, it's often performed by a good friend, and not always done by yourself. 

Second of all, the cultural value in honoring seppuku isn't the death, but the redemption and the owning up to one's fault. That's categorically different from suicide as a result of depression or other emotional distresses. 

Third of all, as a result, they don't call suicides "seppuku" over there. They actually have a very different word for suicide. 

Forth of all, if you look at the media reporting of suicides in Japan, you won't see lauding, or praise, or any sort of positive take. It's seen as a tragedy, a form of weakness, and an admission to defeat. Which, you know, is the opposite of seppuku 

So please, don't use that inference again. 

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I would imagine at least a contributing factor is what was mentioned previously regarding the difficulty men have in speaking to friends about their issues. If you have no outlet for all he negativity and troubles within you that can easily build up and put you in a desperate situation. The ability and acceptance to reach out and discuss your issues with your peers is very important I think. Anecdotally, there are many times simply being able to discuss things with friends has brought me back from that desperate suicidal impulse. If I had felt shameful about do8ng so because talking about these things was a social taboo, might I have committed suicide? Very high probability, yes. So I think thisnhas to be a large part of it too. Just my opinion though, I don’t have data to support this

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