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Non Believers: I'm What's Called a Pessimist


Martell Spy

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8 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Please be respectful if you post here.

I'm jealous of the Christian thread, so I figured I'd try to start a thread about non believers. Atheists and the like. So, some questions to get things started.

!. What type of non believer are you? How do you define it? I'm sure I don't know all the terms that are out there, so I'd be interested. (I used to consider myself agnostic and now I consider myself an atheist)

2. Did you ever believe? (I did not)

3. Were you ever part of a faith? (My parents were Jehovah Witnesses, but I never really got into it. I found the meetings boring)

4. Do you tell anyone you are a non? Are you a combative non? (I rarely tell anyone because I'm a careful person)

I'm surprised how similar my experiences are to a lot of people here actually.

1) I would have previously have considered myself a hard atheist, I don't believe in any sort of God, I especially don't believe in any God that would give a damn whether human beings stole a sweet from the local shop or not. I would now consider myself an agnostic atheist.. mainly because whilst I still don't believe in any god, my position is that I simply do not know the truth, and nobody does, and so everybody is essentially an agnostic, anyone with any hard beliefs is fooling themselves. 

2) I was raised Irish Catholic, but for some reason I dropped out of that brand of belief pretty early. Probably around 11-12 I think I'd figured that most of the things being taught to me didn't make a lot of sense and totally conflicted with many of the other things being taught to me. I don't have a great deal of respect for Catholicism which seems so ritualised to me. 

3) See part 2, but I'm not sure I ever really believed, I remember church being boring and saw little to no value in it. I would say prayers because I had to, and learn about Jesus because I had to. I like to think I was a sensible kid.

4) Its not something that really comes up a lot any more. Maybe because I live in the UK where religion is basically frowned upon and generally accepted by most people as some old school superstition. I am still amazed when I meet a religious person who was raised here and isn't part of a restrictive culture. Like, why did you CHOOSE to believe in that? I mean I understand it, my mum was very devout, and at the time I would challenge her on her beliefs and think she was pretty silly to believe in all these things. But later on I realised how much comfort her faith gave her, so I just let her have it and didn't question it. 

Still I don't see how that is the answer to anything. I know some people who get a lot of comfort out of thinking their grandparent are haunting their bedroom or that there are fairies who help them. That doesn't mean that these beliefs shouldn't be challenged and held up to some sort of scrutiny, and you absolutely will be judged by me if you believe in things like this, I won't apologise for that. A person's beliefs should always be up for negotiation and should be constantly evolving and changing as new information comes to light, and we shouldn't be 'trusting our intuition' or our 'feelings' because those things are completely subjective and of little value. 

But no, I don't tell anyone because I just assume most people don't believe. I'm sure its different in the US, but I find it all a little bizarre over there anyway.

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1. Atheist, I guess. I do not believe there is an all-seeing being controlling all our deeds and everything happening on Earth. If there were, they surely must have more important business to deal with than spying on me.

2 and 3. Nope and nope. I was not raised in a religious family, my parents did not even have me baptised. Some people have their children baptised "because that is what is done", but I do not believe in making children a part of an organisation before they can decide for themselves.

We did go to a lot of churches, though. Only never for religious purposes, but strictly admiring the architecture/history/art history.

4. Sure, if it comes up and is relevant. I mean, it is not the first thing I would tell people about myself, but if it is relevant, then yes. I do not think being a non-believer is stigmatised among the people I spend most time with as it seems to be in some other social circles, judging from this thread. I generally assume people are non-believers when I meet them.

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4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yup. I do not know a single religious person IRL around my age.

In recent years I have met quite a few. I think there might be some sort of upsurge in the UK. I recently went to what I was led to believe was a carol concert in Wembley, but it turned out to be an enormous evangelical event (promoting their own church), by the Hillsong group. I know people who have joined Hillsong and it seems pretty nice and I can understand why people would like it. 

But yes I can say I have met more religious people in the past 5 years than I did in the previous 10. I don't know why that is.

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I knew one deeply religious person of the same age I am. I do not think there are any in my current social circle.

But the expectation of people you meet relies strongly on what you know and you are used to. Here is an example: I volunteered with a group helping refugee children for a while earlier this year. One of the other volunteers told the rest of us about this conversation:

Kid: I am a Muslim.* Are you a Muslim too?

Volunteer: No, I am not.

Kid: Are you a Christian?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *thinks for a while, running out of options* A Jew?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *runs out of options to classify people in a way they have been taught, ends up confused*

*I have heard such statements a few times. I am not sure what the kids understood under that/at which age they start to understand what that means.

So it really depends on what environment you are used to and how you are taught - that is what influences our expectations about other people. I assume people are non-believers because that is how my family always was and most of the people I came into contact with.

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11 minutes ago, Buckwheat said:

I knew one deeply religious person of the same age I am. I do not think there are any in my current social circle.

But the expectation of people you meet relies strongly on what you know and you are used to. Here is an example: I volunteered with a group helping refugee children for a while earlier this year. One of the other volunteers told the rest of us about this conversation:

Kid: I am a Muslim.* Are you a Muslim too?

Volunteer: No, I am not.

Kid: Are you a Christian?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *thinks for a while, running out of options* A Jew?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *runs out of options to classify people in a way they have been taught, ends up confused*

*I have heard such statements a few times. I am not sure what the kids understood under that/at which age they start to understand what that means.

So it really depends on what environment you are used to and how you are taught - that is what influences our expectations about other people. I assume people are non-believers because that is how my family always was and most of the people I came into contact with.

The thing is, when people say "Christian, Muslim or Jew", they're often asking about your background as much as what you believe in. Like on the UK census, a huge number of people tick Christian, but other surveys shows they don't believe in the Christian God, don't go to church, don't read the bible. But they still have that identity. I put Christian on visa applications when I think it would help, and it's not technically lying- there's no process for leaving the Church of England once you're baptised, so I'm still a member. Christian atheism isn't well known, but it's very much a real thing- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism Same with Muslim atheism, a lot of people in our country have the impression that all "Muslims", as in people from Islamic backgrounds, are religious, attend mosques, pray, etc.

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29 minutes ago, Buckwheat said:

I knew one deeply religious person of the same age I am. I do not think there are any in my current social circle.

But the expectation of people you meet relies strongly on what you know and you are used to. Here is an example: I volunteered with a group helping refugee children for a while earlier this year. One of the other volunteers told the rest of us about this conversation:

Kid: I am a Muslim.* Are you a Muslim too?

Volunteer: No, I am not.

Kid: Are you a Christian?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *thinks for a while, running out of options* A Jew?

Volunteer: No.

Kid: *runs out of options to classify people in a way they have been taught, ends up confused*

*I have heard such statements a few times. I am not sure what the kids understood under that/at which age they start to understand what that means.

So it really depends on what environment you are used to and how you are taught - that is what influences our expectations about other people. I assume people are non-believers because that is how my family always was and most of the people I came into contact with.

Kids like to categorise each other, it makes things easier for them. I grew up in a very multicultural area and we would all take special pride in our heritage. So my mate was Indian, my other mate was Chinese, the other was Albanian, another Italian. We'd all rip each other for it and it gave us some form of identity. I think thats all thats happening there, kids want to be able to easily group people.

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4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

The weird thing is about religion in the UK, is the few i do know are pretty liberal, there doesn't seem to be any 'crazy god squad' ethos. 

This is true, while I think there are some more conservative religious types out there, they are mainly either foreign born or they are basically in government! 

Most christian Brits I think are pretty left wing and liberal, and are probably attracted to a certain form of Christianity because it aligns quite nicely with a humanist, caring worldview.

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1) Atheist, mostly as in absence of belief. Strong atheist to a lot of the gods humanity has told stories about, weak atheist for some of the more philosophical ones.

2) Never, as far as I can remember.

3) My parents were lapsed Catholics, and I can't remember my grandparents (who were active in the Church) making a big fuss about that. I did attend Catholic schools, and as such Church services at times. Which has left some appreciation of community and ceremony. As well as a bias in what is proper Christianity in discussions.

4) In public never, religion hardly ever comes up anyway. In online discussions less so these days. And in most environments I live in arguments based on religion seem to have lost validity ages ago.

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12 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

1. What type of non believer are you? How do you define it? I'm sure I don't know all the terms that are out there, so I'd be interested. (I used to consider myself agnostic and now I consider myself an atheist)

2. Did you ever believe? (I did not)

3. Were you ever part of a faith? (My parents were Jehovah Witnesses, but I never really got into it. I found the meetings boring)

4. Do you tell anyone you are a non? Are you a combative non? (I rarely tell anyone because I'm a careful person)

1. Sceptical / Agnostis Atheist; though I can also describe myself as spiritual-but-not-religious; but that's mostly to provide a get-out on the rare occassion it does come up in conversation.

When riled, I can become an Antitheist (as in, if there is an Abrahamaic god, then he deserves our scorn, not worship)

2. I used to think I did; in the way that kids believe what they're told by authority figures, but I grew out of it in the same way, and around the same time I stopped believing in Santa or the tooth fairy

3. I'm British; I was officially raised CoE, in a pretty informal non-serious way; with non-belief being the expected standard.

4. I don't avoid it when it comes up in conversation, though I may initial deflect; but then, what little I do believe is pretty unauthodox, and I'm generally not interested in convincing anyone or defending myself. Sometimes though people seem genuinely interested, in which case I'll talk about it - it's just... very rare. Generally speaking in Britain, talking about religion is seen as pretty distasteful.

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Having read through the thread now; and on the topic of Religion in Britain - or specifically CoE religion in Britain - I think that religion just doesn't matter much here. It's not a defining characteristic for us, and whilst we take the basic massage of "be decent human beings" we largely ignore religious teachings, and frankly distrust those who put their religion front-and-centre.

Equally, I think the image we have of Atheism is the more militant variety, who go around telling others that they're wrong - which is exactly what many of us dislike about religion; we don't really care (I like the term Apatheism, whoever used that earlier in this thread). Consequently, I think many would put CoE whilst not really agreeing that god exists, or that Christ was his son etc.

 

We don't really care what you may or may not believe; we just care that you don't push that onto other people.

 

24 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

I'm a strange variant - I'm a non-materialistic atheist. I do believe in spirituality (while no-one can know for certain, I tend to favour notions of reincarnation). I just don't think a deity (or deities) is responsible for aforementioned spirituality.


I'd include that under what I classed as "spiritual-but-not-religious".

I personally don't believe in any higher power (though I don't deny the [remote] possibility); but I do believe in an animating force. The biological, and chemical difference between a live tree and a dead tree; or a human on death's door versus that same sack of meat 10 seconds later is.... scientifically identical; it's just that the processes have gone dormant.

I'm utterly agnostic about what happens to that animating force when it's not busy in a living body. It might reincarnate, it might become a ghost, it might join up with other animating forces and become a god-like entity, it might cease to exist - I've no idea, have no way of ever getting an idea, and so don't really care.

 

As for religions - I believe that they are all man-made constructs designed to explain the inexplicable, reassure the populace that they don't need to worry too much about death and to apply an ethical code of "don't be a twat".

Once they've got their teeth into you, then they become about populace control, profit for the clergy, with a nice addition of emotional abuse and blackmail (physical and psychological) - but that's all humans wanting power over other humans.

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15 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Having read through the thread now; and on the topic of Religion in Britain - or specifically CoE religion in Britain - I think that religion just doesn't matter much here. It's not a defining characteristic for us, and whilst we take the basic massage of "be decent human beings" we largely ignore religious teachings, and frankly distrust those who put their religion front-and-centre.

Equally, I think the image we have of Atheism is the more militant variety, who go around telling others that they're wrong - which is exactly what many of us dislike about religion; we don't really care (I like the term Apatheism, whoever used that earlier in this thread). Consequently, I think many would put CoE whilst not really agreeing that god exists, or that Christ was his son etc.

We don't really care what you may or may not believe; we just care that you don't push that onto other people.

I think this is a wider part of our culture of moderation, or small 'c' conservatism. Look at politics- we are one of the few European countries that never had an electorally successful communist or fascist party. We also haven't had a civil war in a very long time. And as a few of us have said, one of the most striking features of our established church, the CofE, is how low key it is. It has bad sides as well, we are very accepting of a class system, of old aristocratic privilege.

It's a bit like how I've heard people say "why are all gays so over the top?". Of course they aren't, the only ones you recognise (or think you recognise) on sight at the over the top ones. Most people probably know several atheists, but they don't mention it. The ones they do hear talking about it are the Dawkinsists, so they think we're all like that.

You're still supposed to be a little guilty about atheism. Note that any politician who is an atheist always says this "I'm an atheist, but I have great respect for religious people". Why do they have to qualify that? If anything, judging by history, Christian politicians should say "I'm a Christian, but I have great respect for non-religious people", but I've never heard that. So maybe we should be a bit more out and proud- not preaching atheism, but openly identifying ourselves, and then just getting on with our lives.

 

What do you guys think about Eastern v Abrahamic religions? I think generally atheists are more interested in Eastern religions. I have met a lot of travellers who totally rejected our religions, but were exploring Buddhism. It is very intreging, and I try to be open minded, so I gave it a bit of try. I do like meditation, and I was doing it in a pagoda, but then you look up and the Buddha statue is giant and made of gold, and I can't reconcile that with what I know about the Buddha's teachings. Just like how Jesus is portrayed as very humble and non-materialistic, so we spend vast sums of wealth building incredibly fancy cathedrals to respect him. I think we can learn from all religions, but ultimately Buddhism is primarily for the same thing as the others- acquiring and maintaining power. Yes, you can say all life is suffering, but it's a hell of lot more suffering for the serfs in the fields than the nobles in the castles. Reincarnation justies privilege- I actually earnt all this, in a previous life. You deserve your life of hard labour, you must have been bad in your previous life.

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Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Okay, as discussed with @mankytoes earlier, I'll add another question.

5. Do you have an ethical code? Do you have hard set rules on things you will or will not do, thought out ahead before the situation arises? Have you studied philosophy or ethics at all? Did you have a code even before knowing much about ethics and where do you think it came from? Do you believe in Good and Bad, and do you judge such in others? What are your beliefs surrounding killing and violence, the use of, etc.

(I didn't really know much about ethics until I had a class at 26. Before that I did have some kind of a rudimentary code, mostly trying to be what I considered a good person. I don't fully know for certain, but I strongly believe it was instilled in me by my Mom, since she talked to me a lot when I was young and basically a far better parent than my Dad. I kind of patched a more formal code of ethics together after I learned about it more. I'm basically a utilititarian, and yes I'm familiar with the kind of problems that can cause. The classic problem of course is doing something awful, say to save a 100 people, by killing ten people, etc. I've thought out various rules, especially when it comes to killing and violence, and there is some flexibility by situation. But I try to have pretty hard and fast rules around killing and a very hight bar for doing it. I'm not a full pacifistic, but I'm very close. I won't own a gun and I won't let angry men draw me into violence. I think about how I might accidentally kill someone when I'm driving as I know the car is a deadly weapon. And yes, angry men  have tried at times to get me into violence. I always walk away. It's worked so far, so hopefully my luck doesn't run out. But if it does well they will be dealing with the police. The main situation I can think of where I might kill is if it was absolutely necessary to save a life, and calling the police wasn't better, or the old classic army of Nazis coming, also known as the World War 2 situation. It's probably kind of odd for a liberal atheist, but I do believe in Good and Evil, and I do judge based on that. I just don't base it on the Divine. I especially judge those with power, since they should be held accountable)

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13 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Please be respectful if you post here.

I'm jealous of the Christian thread, so I figured I'd try to start a thread about non believers. Atheists and the like. So, some questions to get things started.

!. What type of non believer are you? How do you define it? I'm sure I don't know all the terms that are out there, so I'd be interested.

 

I'm really not sure. It seems wrong to say spiritual, but I'm not quite sure agnostic is really right either.  I've transferred a general belief into more of an Earth based one. Really though, it is more of an ecology thing than a religious thing. (protect, respect the earth - giver of what we need to live...I just like thinking of it more in terms of Mother Earth)

eta: I do think reincarnation is a possibility, but I can't say for sure. Grow and learn, in this life and the next. (ok, maybe it's more a hope)

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2. Did you ever believe?

Maybe? I guess I was agnostic before.  Sometimes I can still believe a little...life is such a beautiful thing, it's hard to imagine it all happening as happenstance.  (is that what "intelligent design" is? I can occasionally do a little Ancient Alien theory :P )

 

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3. Were you ever part of a faith?

No, not really. I did attend the Mormon church for over a year in my teens, but even then, the idea that I only have as much value as a man gives me totally pissed me off. If a person is worthy to enter heaven, they should be able to on their own merits.  I used to think about my ex in-laws a lot in this context.  My M-I-L was an amazing woman, so kind and very spiritual, I swear sometimes I could see a gold glow about her. If anyone deserves a seat at the table with God, it's her.  My F-I-L, not so much.  If I was judge, he might not get in at all. I'd ask her about this sometimes, and I don't think it bothered her that much that she had to rely on him to call her, and what he achieved, to define their place in heaven.
 

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4. Do you tell anyone you are a non? Are you a combative non?

 

 

Not really.  (I say that a lot when it comes to this topic)

 

All that said, I try to live my life based on a few principles that really would fit in with most religions: 

  1. Do no harm (physical or emotional)

  2. Respect for people and the earth

  3. Help others/give when you can

  4. Make an effort to be nice/kind (you can do all the about without being overly kind or nice - just avoid people)

Yeah, those are pretty broad, and a lot of things fall into them. I don’t always succeed, just last week I was a little rude to a sales clerk who was making me late (she was slow, chatty and then stopped to watch an accident with kids and a cart—not helping, just watching).

Anyway, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten better. If there is a heaven, and it is merit based, maybe I’ll get a seat at the table anyway (nothing wrong with hedging one's bet) ;)

eta:  :lol: I didn't see the question about the ethical code

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I think that Eastern religions became a lot more popular towards the end of the 20th century because essentially we have stopped using religion as a method for guiding our actions. Most people in the west have a sort of post-modern humanist view of the world that gives them an idea of what is right or wrong (this might be partly evolved from elements of Christianity), whereby all human life is sacred and doing whatever makes you feel happy is often the right thing to do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

But that is much too loose a structure for most people, and generally we are all left without any sort of meaning to our lives, we just wander around, looking for cool experiences and trying to find things that make us happy, because for us, that is the goal of life. Happiness. 

Eastern religions like Buddhism are great in one way because a lot of their methods like meditation and self observation are scientifically proven methods for helping us feel better. You can take on many of these methods without actually having to believe in any of the superstitious mumbo jumbo surrounding them like reincarnation etc. I read 'The power of now' years ago and its mostly gibberish, but the core of it makes a lot of sense and is useful.

 

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The only real code I follow and have always followed is "do unto others as others would do unto you" or "be excellent to each other". Try and give people their due respect, don't intentionally ever hurt anyone and try as hard as I can not to unintentionally hurt anyone. I can not say I've never broken my code, usually at the fault of losing my temper or some emotional cause and I always feel very shitty when I do and I try to apologize and make up for it as best I can..

I've never really given time contemplating a "no win" or Sophie's Choice kind of scenario and what I'd do. I've always thought of that as something I can't decide until I am in the moment kind of thing and then rely on what my ethics has been up to then.

Only thing I have considered is it's more important to me to help someone else than help myself. With all the shootings in the U.S. in recent times I've thought of what I'd do if I was in one and I'd rather myself be shot than anyone else, if at all possible before I get taken completely out be able to tackle the gun man. Brave thoughts, but would I really do that if the situation really happened?  :dunno:  I have no idea, only just that I have mentally thought out a situation like that and that's my premeditated plan.

As much as I am a nonbeliever I have strong dislike and distaste for considering a Faustian bargain with the devil. I don't believe in the devil, but still I won't even let myself think much less say "I'd sell my soul for a donut" or anything like that. As much as there are things I fantasize about and yearn for in life, I stop myself before saying or even thinking I'd do "anything" to get that. I think about what I would do but there is always a point where the price becomes to high. For anything. There are always limits on what I'd do to get what I want, limits on the bargains I'd make, limits on what I'd give up to get something else. For this line of thinking though more than any religious beliefs instilled in my growing up, I blame all the Disney cartoons, Looney Tunes, sitcoms, and movies I was brought up on as a kid that always had the moral of making a deal with the devil always turns out to be a mistake.

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42 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Eastern religions like Buddhism are great in one way because a lot of their methods like meditation and self observation are scientifically proven methods for helping us feel better. You can take on many of these methods without actually having to believe in any of the superstitious mumbo jumbo surrounding them like reincarnation etc. I read 'The power of now' years ago and its mostly gibberish, but the core of it makes a lot of sense and is useful.
 

I agree with that, I know people find it odd, or even offensive, that a rationalist sceptic can enjoy yoga, but I feel no contradiction in that. I have no idea if what I did truly corresponds with the ancient Hindu roots, but I'm not really bothered, I found it worked really well for me.

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6 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I agree with that, I know people find it odd, or even offensive, that a rationalist sceptic can enjoy yoga, but I feel no contradiction in that. I have no idea if what I did truly corresponds with the ancient Hindu roots, but I'm not really bothered, I found it worked really well for me.

Exactly, in an age where our minds are overloaded with information and thoughts its obviously useful to be able to switch them off for a bit and relax. There is a bit of silliness about higher levels of conciousness what I don't tend to believe in, but I think being able to calm your mind is incredibly powerful, especially for some people who are very much led by their emotions .. their 'chimp brain'

And as someone who needs to do a lot of stretching and core work, Yoga is suspiciously similar to much of what my physio tells me to do. 

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